Jason Putman [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

JasonPutman

05-21-2004, 11:46 AM

As much as I'd love to accept any award for being the first to "break" this story, readers will find in the detailed reference notes that the first major media venue to investigate and confirm Bannon's account was National Public Radio (NPR) last July in an exhaustive 30-min report on The Todd Mundt Show. Since then, the story has been investigated and confirmed by two newspapers (Charlotte Observer [31st largest metro in the U.S.] and a story I wrote for a much smaller paper, The Lake Norman Times) and most recently by Fox News Channel in a report that aired on March 24.

I have been researching this article, and other similar works, for over a year in preparation for my new book on the world's intelligence special forces, coming from Random House in 2005. My father is a retired DEA special agent in charge, so I've been around some pretty astounding things, although not from personal experience. My dad vouched for Bannon and Defferre; and then he vouched for me when I pursued all the interviews.

The heart of the article, "Kungfu Secret Agent," is the volume of interviews. I spoke in person and via phone with law officers, intelligence officers and Interpol agents, all of whom worked with Bannon. I interviewed Bannon's Interpol supervisor, Jacques Defferre, in person before the gentleman's death. Some of the interviewees didn't care for Bannon, others spoke of him with long years between them, but all confirmed the existence of Team Archangel and that they had worked with Bannon and Defferre. Bannon's book, "Race Against Evil," has been confirmed as accurate and credible by intelligence and law officers with whom he worked. The interviews are detailed in the article and speak for themselves.

Bannon himself wrote his first account for Kungfu Magazine in 2001, as Gene has noted, and then told the full story in his book from New Horizon, which was fully vetted by the attorneys of the book's distributor, Penguin-Putnam (no relation, darnit). My own publisher is repeating the vetting process, checking all of my tapes, transcripts, contact information and support documentation -- as would be required by any major media venue. As with all journalism, the interview tapes and transcripts, as well as full contact information, are held by my book publisher.

Bannon currently serves as an expert witness on global human trafficking for federal appellate courts in Florida, Pennsylvania and Washington, D.C. I confirmed this with two law firms that have hired him as an expert consultant - both of whom have independently verified his credentials and background with Interpol before putting him on the stand to testify. This corroboration is hard to refute or deny.

If my writing style isn't up to Kungfu standards, or if I have dramatized in a way that readers find distracting, I accept full blame. It should not reflect poorly on the hundreds of Interpol officers who shed blood and sweat and years defending children. The sacrifices of Team Archangel were too dear to be dismissed because of my flaws as a writer.

When I interviewed Bannon and Defferre together, I was struck by their normalcy - so remarkably normal that it was almost abnormal - it was easy to miss them, to let your eyes slide over them and onto someone else in the coffee shop. Only after talking with them in detail did I begin to sense the remarkable depths of quiet violence in both men. After Defferre was killed, and with much investigation, I have concluded that Bannon revealed his story as a safety measure that has little to do with book sales. Going public, but retaining support docs, he has been able to leave what Defferre (with characteristic panache) called "the secret world."

Bannon himself has a much deeper motivation and when he discusses it, his demeanor is one of unwavering resolve and dignity. Bannon is a child advocate and his book is secondary to spreading the world about what he calls "this most horrific atrocity," child sex trafficking. After talking with these men in person, all of the subsequent support docs and confirming interviews served to increase my own horror at the sheer volume of children abused in sex trafficking -- and to begin to understand in part the immense frustration of men like Defferre that ultimately led to a Team Archangel.

Much of my research was assisted by Professor Chiu Hse Yu of Singapore University, with whom I co-wrote "Interpol's Secret Army" for The Western Libertartian Alliance political journal. Bannon also has an article in the same issue, "The Hidden Slavery: Global Sex Trafficking," which - true to his character - mentions nothing about his own book. The issue in question can be downloaded in entirety (1.9 M) as a PDF file at
http://www.westernlibertarian.org/paper/WLA%20Complete%2032pg%20low%20res.pdf
or got to http://www.westernlibertarian.org/paper and choose "WLA Complete".
Professor Chiu's web site (and contact address) is: http://www.geocities.com/chiuhse_yu

I am pleased to correspond with anyone who has read Bannon's book and done the hard research needed to qualify their findings--including, of course, the year I've spent gathering interviews, photos, and support documentation that confirm undeniably the facts of this article.

Thank you for reading the article and offering your comments. I hope I have addressed your concerns.

Jason Putman
http://www.geocities.com/JasonPutmanwrites
JasonPutmanwrites@yahoo.com

red5angel

05-21-2004, 11:59 AM

sounds good to me Jason, thanks for getting on and posting to set us straight. Not that KF Magazine isn't a reliable source but you never know.

Stacey

05-21-2004, 01:12 PM

Putman...Do you know kung fu?

I'm guessing so...I pushed and poked and you sunk in humility and turned. Well I'm satiated. It was an entertaining article, so much so that I didn't think it could be real. Anyways, nice work, writing isn't easy.

GeneChing

05-21-2004, 02:16 PM

:cool:

rogue

05-21-2004, 08:09 PM

I'm still not convinced. Certain things don't seem plausible and other things are too clean. Oddly enough almost all of the original 250 cleaners are dead or missing, Defferre is dead, so that leaves one person that can verify things. Three guys kill Defferre but let Bannon escape to appear at the all-important meeting, but with cracked ribs and a dislocated right knee. How did he escape? Did he kill them? How did he get away from them with a dislocated knee?

The white man slides behind a North Korean, steel edge of a black Ka-Bar fighting knife glittering as it plunges into the terrorist's neck, then rips out, severing the vocal chords and jugular. If I'm visualizing it correctly that's a rather odd technique for a sentry removal. If I'm behind the terrorist where do I plunge the knife? How close am I? I'm assuming from the description that the blade is facing away from me? Doesn't the knife angle back through the neck toward me? Aren't there quicker ways to accomplish this? What am I missing here?

What about the hillside fight with a rice farmer? What up with that?

Jason I'm doubtful about this story, could you post some of the interviews, photos, and support documentation that confirm the facts of this article?

cerebus

05-21-2004, 08:30 PM

Yeah. What Rogue said.

Asia

05-22-2004, 12:20 AM

I'm still not convince. To much from what I know doesn't seem plausible. Bullshido is launching its own investigation to verify the validity of the claims. Mr Putman I would also like to see the interviews and other info. Thank You.

YinYangDagger

05-22-2004, 12:38 AM

To much from what I know doesn't seem plausible.

Yeah, and you know everything.

Bullshido is launching its own investigation to verify the validity of the claims. :rolleyes:

Mr Putman I would also like to see the interviews and other info.

Yeah, and while you're at it, who WAS in the grassy knoll.

Asia

05-22-2004, 01:28 AM

Says the man who actually BELIEVES Ashida Kim.

rogue

05-22-2004, 08:56 AM

And why does Bannon mostly dispatch his victims with obsure methods or edge weaponry? It's not that he's using a blade or empty hand that bothers me, but the method described. That knife technique is just more effort than needed not to mention the blood and noise. Try using the described technique with a practice blade and notice the angle of the hand and arm in relation to the neck. I can see one way this could work but why use it? And I agree with Asia, why not use surpressed handguns? The badguys have AK-47's and these guys are running an operation against them empty handed? It just doesn't add up.

SanSoo Student

05-22-2004, 10:00 AM

GeneChing

05-24-2004, 09:29 AM

...I'm working on getting Dr. Bannon to post. More to come...;)

red5angel

05-24-2004, 12:15 PM

And why does Bannon mostly dispatch his victims with obsure methods or edge weaponry?

sound, and the same reason why suppressed weapons probably weren't used, not too mention the risk of mechanical failure - the second biggest reason why most spec ops types carry knives. Even a suppressed weapon makes a distinct noise that could be heard on a quiet night from several paces away.

Keep this in mind as well Rogue - it sounds like that knife "technique" you described is more literary then accurately reported. Also keep in mind that with the vocal chords at the front of the throat, it's not hard to get to them.

rogue

05-24-2004, 06:48 PM

Even a suppressed weapon makes a distinct noise that could be heard on a quiet night from several paces away. And from what I understand so may a cut throat. From what I know, which is little, it's an odd choice to remove a sentry. Bannon could be the real deal, it's just the story as told by Putnam doesn't feel right.

YinYangDagger

05-24-2004, 08:13 PM

I always thought that the best way to disable guards with a knife was to stab in the cartoid artery and then stab in the lungs, so they couldn't scream or yell. I never heard of cutting/severing vocal cords.

The carotid artery is a good choice as far as a blood letting point...however I was always taught a stab to one of the kidneys was ideal BEFORE attacking a blood letting point, because it supposedly sends the body in shock, therefore rendering the victim an easier target....never done it, just was taught that way based on experience of WW2.

Asia

05-25-2004, 04:53 AM

The Wonderland Story told in the book is extremely suspect now.
I talked with two of my family members who are on the Broward County Sheriffs Office (one is now retired.) The Wonderland case was a big story so if it happened like it was told in the book then at least the major Law Enforcements Offices in the State should know something about. Well they know abou the case but didn't hear of anything the way it was told. All that was told that material was seized, No deaths reported.

the second biggest reason why most spec ops types carry knives. Even a suppressed weapon makes a distinct noise that could be heard on a quiet night from several paces away.

I dealt with SF, SFOD-D and even other nation elite soldiers on various deployments and they will don't carry knives to dispatch sentries. They carry more than on firearm and work in a team. So cap them. Why? Because sneeking up on some is very risky it not like movies were black rambos cutting the throats of unsuspecting men. If animals are involved that can be a different story. I was part of a laison team on a camp in Macedonia and they had dogs all around the camp, the area were the Serbs were supposed to be was mined. I asked if any of the dogs ever inadvertently set off a mine? One of the soldiers said something along the lines of 'No the dogs are good. They will tell us if someone is coming and if they kill on the others will smell the death and let us know.'

Anyways back on topic. A suppressed weapon still makes noise, that is true. But trying to gut a man is not going to be a silent endeavor as well. And from what it seems like it is just Bannon charging in with knife in hand. Look at the Wonder Land story. He was with a group of other cops and they were expecting trouble. Not one of the seasoned cops stop and said, 'Hey why is this guy going in with just a pick sticker?'

Bannon also claimed he was given the rank of MAJOR in the Belgian Gendarmerie. So far all reports back inquiring about Bannon or if an American being given rank has drawn a zero.

So I will continue and hop Mr Putman can aid in this. If Bannon is the real deal then I will give him his props but so far the story raises too many questions.

kungfuyou

05-25-2004, 12:31 PM

I haven't read the entire story yet, but have read what's been posted here, but form what I have been told, the way SF would use a knife in a silent kill is not a slash across the throat, as that way is too noisey and messy. When the throat is slashed the victim makes gurggling noises and the body starts to shake violently, too noise!! What they do is cover the mouth and stab at the base of the skull in the back of the neck, up into their brain, instant kill! Body goes limp, no noises, no massive blood spill.

Ok...back to your regularly scheduled program.

Phrost

05-25-2004, 04:03 PM

All of this sounds a bit too much like La Femme Nikita.

David Jamieson

05-25-2004, 04:26 PM

I found this:

...Lynda Hatch, publicity director of New Horizon Press, Bannon's publisher, says that given the clandestine nature of Bannon's assignments, the "trail of evidence is sometimes murky and indistinct," and that "the organization (Interpol) will claim no knowledge of him."

Hatch is right. We contacted Michael Rose, chief press officer for Interpol in Lyon, France. (To date, it appears that CL is the only media outlet to have contacted Interpol to get their reaction to Bannon's book.) When asked to confirm or deny if Bannon had ever worked for Interpol, Rose responded with this official statement:

"Interpol's General Secretariat in Lyon has no record of David Race Bannon having been employed and no knowledge of individuals mentioned in Mr. Bannon's book. Interpol exists to facilitate the exchange of information between the world's law enforcement agencies and to provide analysis of criminal data and other services. Accordingly, if the claims in Mr. Bannon's book are in fact as have been reported to Interpol, they can only be seen as deceptive and irresponsible fantasy."

Bannon says he expected nothing less from Interpol.

"The official Interpol stance has always been that they're really nothing more than a clearing house of data," Bannon says. "It's so simplistic it's almost funny --that they're nothing more than a giant computer. Then why do they need this vast network across 170-plus countries with officers all over the world?" Bannon says the only way to really support his story is through the testimony of others.

CL tried that route as well. In his book, Bannon writes often about Lee Hyung-Jin, who Bannon says is a longtime friend and Korean NIS agent he worked with on many cases. There is a testimonial signed by a Hyung-Jin in Bannon's book, which, in broken English, essentially supports Bannon's story. At our prompting, Bannon said he contacted Hyung-Jin, who he says is now a college professor in South Korea, and asked him to contact us. A few days later, I received an email from a Hyung-Jin that, again, in broken English, backed up Bannon's story, saying his book was "sad but true," and even though he lived a "careful life with a college job," he would talk to CL for the story. In his email, Hyung-Jin indicated Bannon had forwarded him my number, and he would call. I responded and asked what day and time would best fit his schedule. I never heard from him again.

There's also a testimonial in Bannon's book from Jacques Defferre, the man Bannon claims recruited him into Interpol. Bannon said he contacted Defferre and asked him if he could contact CL for this story. Moreover, Fortson of the Observer received an email from Defferre, which she quoted in her story, saying he was angry with Bannon for telling everything to an "unforgiving world," but that Bannon "must write the truth as he must breathe, it is his nature." Fortson, who never spoke to Defferre in person, also forwarded my contact information to Defferre via email. I never heard from him. In fact, CL still doesn't really have any proof that Defferre or Hyung-Jin actually exists.

Bannon has also written several stories for Kungfu Qigong magazine, including one in the November/December 2001 issue about his involvement in the Wonderland Club arrests. In that story, Bannon, using a knife and baton, busted into a hotel room and rescued an 8-year-old girl who had been kidnapped by members of the child pornography network. After the story was published, several people wrote letters to the magazine, some saying the story was absolute hogwash, and others --including, yes, Hyung-Jin and Defferre -- to commend Bannon on a job well done. We tried to contact Martha Burr, who was executive editor of Kungfu Qignong at the time, to ask if she believed Bannon's story. Associate Editor Gene Ching responded, and informed us that Burr no longer worked for the magazine. When we asked Ching if he believed Bannon, he replied, "To be honest, I don't really know. I've never really interacted with Bannon personally so I haven't formed an opinion of him either way. When that article was published we had a few skeptics, but we also had many supporters contact us. I will be very interested in your findings."

Bottom line, Bannon was unable to produce a single document or piece of evidence to prove his claims. But then again, no one has yet to produce a piece of evidence that disproves his story. There is, in fact, no "smoking gun" from either side.

"I wish there were," Bannon says. "It's certainly legitimate for people to ask if this is all real or not. But in the end, people are just going to have to make up their own mind."

@ http://charlotte.creativeloafing.com/newsstand/2003-02-26/news_cover.html

anyway, i'm still a bit skeptical, what can I say.

cheers

Phrost

05-25-2004, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by YinYangDagger
To much from what I know doesn't seem plausible.

Yeah, and you know everything.

Bullshido is launching its own investigation to verify the validity of the claims. :rolleyes:

And your point is what?

Phrost

05-26-2004, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by YinYangDagger

....

That's what I thought.

GeneChing

05-26-2004, 10:54 AM

I remember when that journalist contacted me about Bannon. It sort bums me out that they called me an 'associate editor' since I've never held that position. I'm the Associate publisher, thank you very much (although at the time, I may have still been Assistent publisher). Calling me an 'editor' is a little like calling a McDonald's manager a 'burger flipper'. I know, I know, it's my own little pet peeve, just bear with me. :rolleyes:

Keep launching your own investigations, guys! That's what it's all about!:cool:

Stacey

05-26-2004, 12:08 PM

I thought it was about publishing credible information with plausible sources. I thought it was about martial arts and not someone's teenage fantasy.

YinYangDagger

05-26-2004, 03:01 PM

Phrost - What kind of pu$$y comment is that? "That's what I thought." Sorry, I don't LIVE on the internet boards. And by the way, :rolleyes: that means I don't care much for your trashy message board. Sue me.

If you do not respond in 30 seconds you're nothing but a punk-a$$ biotch. Ready, go...

YinYangDagger

05-26-2004, 03:02 PM

That's what I thought.

rogue

05-26-2004, 04:23 PM

I thought it was about publishing credible information with plausible sources. I thought it was about martial arts and not someone's teenage fantasy.

Putman...Do you know kung fu?
I'm guessing so...I pushed and poked and you sunk in humility and turned. Well I'm satiated. It was an entertaining article, so much so that I didn't think it could be real. Anyways, nice work, writing isn't easy.:D

Phrost

05-26-2004, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by YinYangDagger
Phrost - What kind of pu$$y comment is that? "That's what I thought." Sorry, I don't LIVE on the internet boards. And by the way, :rolleyes: that means I don't care much for your trashy message board. Sue me.

If you do not respond in 30 seconds you're nothing but a punk-a$$ biotch. Ready, go...

So let me get this straight... you don't care for Bullshido because you feel it's trashy?

I suppose you were sipping tea and eating crumpets while you called me a "pu$$y" and a "biotch"?

I gave you a day to respond. I feel that's fair. I was hoping for a mature, well thought out opinion on why you do not like our site. Unfortunately, this is what I got.

I'm sorry, did we expose one of your instructors as a fraud? You obviously have no problems with harsh language ("trashy" behavior), so what is it exactly that you take exception to? That we actually have the nerve to call people on their BS instead of letting them pretend they're actual martial artists and in the process delude dozens of others into thinking the same?

Well?

BAI HE

05-26-2004, 05:48 PM

Phrost, you getting civilized in your old age?

Pass the crumpets....

Phrost

05-26-2004, 07:00 PM

Aww, I thought I've always been somewhat civilized over here.

Thou hast cut me to the quick. Pass the scones please.

YinYangDagger

05-26-2004, 08:06 PM

Excuse me "innocent" one. It was you that felt you were the big shot with your little comments. I replied, and that's that. I usually don't beat around the bush with any reply, so if it were a little gruff, you get what you gave.

And no, you've never to my knowledge "exposed" any of my past instructors. I personally don't like your boards because of all the flamers you allow to lurk there. It's been a while since I've been over there, so maybe it's changed. I agree with a lot of what most of them said, i.e. practicing on a live resisting opponent etc. It's the only way to really learn to fight...

However, I read other boards as well - Empty Flower to be more precise. And 99% of the time, when someone comes over to flame, guess where they come from? If someone were to come to your boards to pick a fight verbally, they deserve what they get. But why must some folks on your board go over and try and shove their viewpoints down other people's throats? I know you have no control of what they do, but the simple fact is it does leave a bad taste. Now you come along and because of a simple :rolleyes: you get all huffy. I didn't even write anything derogatory about your site. If you want to be the Martial Arts Sheriff, so be it.

I read forums because it's fun. I don't usually argue, because in the long run, 99% of the people won't change their viewpoints regardless of how much you huff and puff. To me this is ludicrous and a complete waste of time. I've gone down the road of arguing endlessly, especially over politics. I refuse to even join in on those arguments unless I have personal experience with something brought up (like the military).

I must say I do enjoy slamming the Shaolin-do crowd when I get the chance, because I've got a little experience there and to me it was a waste of money and more importantly time. Doesn't mean I hate them personally, though.

I don't like tea or crumpets (what the he!! are crumpets??) by the way.

Phrost

05-26-2004, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by YinYangDagger
Excuse me "innocent" one. It was you that felt you were the big shot with your little comments. I replied, and that's that. I usually don't beat around the bush with any reply, so if it were a little gruff, you get what you gave.

Do you even know what you're talking about? You referenced my site well before I posted here. Maybe you're talking about Asia.

Bad idea.

Originally posted by YinYangDagger

And no, you've never to my knowledge "exposed" any of my past instructors. I personally don't like your boards because of all the flamers you allow to lurk there. It's been a while since I've been over there, so maybe it's changed. I agree with a lot of what most of them said, i.e. practicing on a live resisting opponent etc. It's the only way to really learn to fight...

However, I read other boards as well - Empty Flower to be more precise. And 99% of the time, when someone comes over to flame, guess where they come from? If someone were to come to your boards to pick a fight verbally, they deserve what they get. But why must some folks on your board go over and try and shove their viewpoints down other people's throats? I know you have no control of what they do, but the simple fact is it does leave a bad taste. Now you come along and because of a simple :rolleyes: you get all huffy. I didn't even write anything derogatory about your site. If you want to be the Martial Arts Sheriff, so be it.

I just wanted you to back up your catty little emoticon. Kind of like how I'd like you to back up, with links, any trollish activity on Emptyflower, with links to said activity.

We're not in the business of going after anyone for anything other than BS.

Originally posted by YinYangDagger

I read forums because it's fun. I don't usually argue, because in the long run, 99% of the people won't change their viewpoints regardless of how much you huff and puff. To me this is ludicrous and a complete waste of time. I've gone down the road of arguing endlessly, especially over politics. I refuse to even join in on those arguments unless I have personal experience with something brought up (like the military).

I must say I do enjoy slamming the Shaolin-do crowd when I get the chance, because I've got a little experience there and to me it was a waste of money and more importantly time. Doesn't mean I hate them personally, though.

I don't think any of us get any more emotionally attached to this than you do. However, we do resent that people are being taken advantage of in multiple ways, and that the martial arts need to have a lot of myths dispelled for the public's benefit.

Bullshido is about direct participation by members of the martial arts community in the discussion of establishing and improving standards for realistic martial arts training.

I'd wager, through my direct crusading, we have a good 60%+ of our members that would fall under the catagory of 'traditional' martial artists.

Originally posted by YinYangDagger

I don't like tea or crumpets (what the he!! are crumpets??) by the way.

I don't actually know either. I think they're some sort of cookie.

Regardless, I do take your 'comment' personally. We're working hard over there, and yeah, we get our hands dirty at times, but we've built this system from scratch. We're still learning what works and what doesn't.

YinYangDagger

05-26-2004, 08:52 PM

We're not in the business of going after anyone for anything other than BS.

Define BS. I'd bet that not everyone would agree that what you view as BS is the same as everyone else. There's too may martial arts out there that focus on other things than fighting. Me personally, and I've said it before, only view martial arts as a way of advancing your fighting skills. However as I get older, I wouldn't mind picking up some Tai Chi for health. See, this last statement alone will pi$$ some Tai Chi folks off as they may practice it as a fighting style.

Bullshido is about direct participation by members of the martial arts community in the discussion of establishing and improving standards for realistic martial arts training.

Come on man, are you for real? I sincerely enjoy your efforts, but do you actually read some of the posts on your site????

Anyway, I'm done with this. If you want to search over at EF be my guest. The only thing that's going to come out of this is you'll make some comment and then I'll reply, and then it'll start all over again. Which in turn will make my ADD flare up. And I hate it when that happens. Forget the crumpets, pass me a Ritalin, please...and a beer...

Toby

05-26-2004, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by YinYangDagger
I don't like tea or crumpets (what the he!! are crumpets??) by the way. Not even green tea? Love the stuff. Crumpets in Oz are these cool circular things made of dough with lots of holes in them. You put them in the toaster and when they're ready, butter them and put honey, vegemite, whatever on them. The butter and other toppings then melt down into the holes. Mmmm! Oh, yeah, they taste great with sausage, salami or ham and cheese on top under the grill too. You can't really see here (http://www.georgewestonfoods.com.au/brands/mrgolden.htm) , but the pic at the bottom is of a crumpet.

YinYangDagger

05-26-2004, 09:08 PM

Not sure of what a vegemite is either, but I remember hearing of it in an older 80's song :D

Toby

05-26-2004, 09:14 PM

Yeah, crap song. "The Land Down Under" by Men At Work. A one-hit wonder.

Here's vegemite (http://www.vegemite.com.au/) . It's an acquired taste for most. Australians mostly love it, foreign devils hate it :D. Very good in the morning after a drinking session. It has a very strong taste. It's kind of similar to Marmite or Promite, which I believe come from overseas.

Asia

05-27-2004, 12:59 AM

Yeah, crap song. "The Land Down Under" by Men At Work. A one-hit wonder

One hit wonder my ASS!! How dare you insult the band that gave us:
Who Can It Be Now?
Everything I Need
Dr. Heckyll & Mr. Jive

Just to name a few! BAH!:D

Toby

05-27-2004, 01:03 AM

Sorry.I forgot those other "hits". Can't say I recall the last 2, though. They mustn't be in my extensive Men At Work CD collection. :D

Asia

05-27-2004, 03:32 AM

You don't have Dr. Heckyll & Mr. Jive!?!?!?!:confused:

For SHAME!!

Its on the BRAZIL and the new CONTRABAND (greatest hits) albums

scotty1

05-27-2004, 04:22 AM

Toby is correct about what crumpets are, and yes, they're f*cking gorgeous. And no, we don't eat them all the time, although I would have them with a cup of tea.

:)

And Marmite is what we have in England. From people I've known, they're similar (Mar and Vege Mites) but different enough for people who enjoy one to hate the other.

yeah, baby.

Toby

05-27-2004, 06:26 AM

Originally posted by Asia
You don't have Dr. Heckyll & Mr. Jive!?!?!?!:confused:

For SHAME!!

Its on the BRAZIL and the new CONTRABAND (greatest hits) albums Uhh, OK. You really are a Men At Work fan huh? *Backs away slowly* :D

scotty1, yeah, I'd never substitute any of that other crap for vegemite. :p

CFT

05-27-2004, 07:31 AM

Dear Mr. Putman,

Please see my comments in response to your post.

Originally posted by JasonPutman
My dad vouched for Bannon and Defferre; and then he vouched for me when I pursued all the interviews.Does your father know Bannon and Defferre well enough to vouch for the veracity of their experiences?

Bannon's book, "Race Against Evil," has been confirmed as accurate and credible by intelligence and law officers with whom he worked. The interviews are detailed in the article and speak for themselves.I'm afraid that your confirmations may not be as sound as you present, particularly Geoffrey Ries (MI6 officer) in footnote 25:

"Due to the laws governing secrecy in the United Kingdom, Ries was particularly difficult to pin down when we spoke on the phone. However, his legitimacy was confirmed by Bannon; Wolper arranged the phone interview."

I'm sorry, but such a source needs independent assurance that it is sound. I could claim that I am the 25th generational inheritor of "Real super-dooper Ninjutsu" and get my associate "Sam Hill" to vouch for me; you can trust Sam because he is an honest person .... the real deal. Honest.:rolleyes:

Much of my research was assisted by Professor Chiu Hse Yu of Singapore University, with whom I co-wrote "Interpol's Secret Army" for The Western Libertartian Alliance political journal. Bannon also has an article in the same issue, "The Hidden Slavery: Global Sex Trafficking," which - true to his character - mentions nothing about his own book. The issue in question can be downloaded in entirety (1.9 M) as a PDF file at
http://www.westernlibertarian.org/paper/WLA%20Complete%2032pg%20low%20res.pdf
or got to http://www.westernlibertarian.org/paper and choose "WLA Complete".

Professor Chiu's web site (and contact address) is: http://www.geocities.com/chiuhse_yuI have a number of points to make about your "co-author" of the "Western Libertartian Alliance" article:

1) Website veracity
The website you reference (http://www.geocities.com/chiuhse_yu/) is a GeoCities page which is missing the Singapore Management University letters (SMU), but does show the Lions head logo. Only a (correct) contact address is shown but no contact numbers. The email address is a Yahoo one.

Her real page is: http://www.business.smu.edu.sg/law/faculty/chiu_hseyu.html and shows the full contact details and legitimate smu.edu.sg email address. Her research interests are to do with Business law not Human Trafficking or International policing organisations.

2) Article Authorship details
The "co-author" details (Chiu Hse Yu) are not accurate:

She does not have a Ph.D. (according to her own resume) and is not a lecturer in Law at the National University of Singapore; she is a lecturer at the Singapore Management University, a completely different organisation. She does however hold a law degree (LLB) from the National University of Singapore.

She has not published a book called "Punishment as Response to Harm", Singapore University Press, 1997. She only received her undergraduate degree in 1997.

She does have an article in the Singapore Journal of Legal Studies, Dec. 2002 (http://law.nus.edu.sg/sjls/sjls2002d.htm). Interestingly there is another article with a similar title ...

Australian Influences on the Insider Trading Laws in Singapore
Chiu Hse Yu

Punishment as Response to Harm:
Why the Attempt Warrants Lesser Punishment Than the Completed Crime
Davinia Filza Abdul Aziz

3) Context of Quotes
The quote the former Secretary-General of Interpol (Raymond-Kendall) seems to be taken out of context and does not in itself advocate breaking the law and employing assasins:

"If we waited until the laws were adopted, we would wait a long, long time. Unless we have the courage to step outside the usual run of the mill responses we will not achieve anything."

My points may seem to be nit-picking and small in number. However, I believe them to be illustrative of many similar instances in his article. I do not believe that Mr. Bannon's sources have been adequately verified by Mr. Putman, to any kind of journalistic standard. As a consequence, his article does nothing to help me believe the veracity of Mr. Bannon's experiences.

Given the dubious (Chiu Hse Yu) website and unverifiable references, I question the amount of credence we should give to Mr. Putman's article. The danger is that Mr. Bannon's article is given more weight than it deserves because Mr. Putman has so-called "independently verified" the facts.

Asia

05-27-2004, 08:44 AM

Uhh, OK. You really are a Men At Work fan huh? *Backs away slowly*

What can I say I'm an 80s man.

Back on topic,

Anyone else think it funny that a man who did all these clandestine hits for an org that is suppose to be for LAW ENFORCEMENT published a book and is not afriad that pple will seek revenge or that his org will send pple after him for spilling secrets? Worse still give a blackeye to Interpol?:confused:

GeneChing

05-27-2004, 11:02 AM

...And didn't Stacey once challenge me to some sort of fight under a bridge or something years ago? Keep it coming Stacey. ;) You wrote:
I thought it was about publishing credible information with plausible sources. We often get comments like so-and-so is a fraud or this-and-that ain't true. Such is the nature of research. We accept the dominent paradigm, but that doesn't mean it's correct. Probably the most interesting case was Piltdown Man. If this could happen in the scinetific realm (and often still does), it can certainly happen in the martial arts where charlatans abound.

Of course, we try to validate our stories as much as possible, and I'll be the first to admit that we have been fooled in the past, just like any martial arts publisher. It's that connection to mysticism in the martial arts that opens the door to charlatans in an exceptional way. Now certainly we have more resources at our disposal to validate submissions (you should see some of the stuff we turn down :eek: ) but no one is infallible. Someday, I should tell you the story of my previous company and "Bruce Lee's brother" ;). So as I said before, it's really about research. Anyone can claim the ultimate truth. And anyone can dispute it. What's more important, and this perhaps is a remnant of my scholarly training, is the research - that we can debate it intelligently. Stacey raised a good question about the validity of Putnam's research. It was a good devil's advocate role. A lot of people voiced armchair opinions that were marginally valid. Putnam responded eloquently. Now CFT has also responded eloquently. So the ball is in Putnam's court, or Bannon's if he responds.

Let me add some grist to the mill here and give you the history about this story. Dr. Bannon has been a long time contributor to the magazine in the past. Most of his articles were historical. He was always inconsistent about submissions though, and often difficult to contact. When he contacted our former editor, Martha Burr, about the Deadly Hands story, we had a lot of discussion about whether we should run it or not. I was the most skeptical here, and to be honest, still am the most skeptical. Bannon came in to do the shoot (that's Design Sifu getting the knife in the thumbnail on the e-zine) when I was away. We shook hands, but that was it. After we ran the article, it received a lot of response, both positive and negative. Bannon came onto the TC Media forum to answer questions directly (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=7344) but no one took him up on it. I'm hoping he'll come back now. I had been contacted about the book later, since they used some of our images. Additionally, I was contacted by the reporter that Kung Lek cited earlier. Then this Putnam article (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=499) was submitted and we decided to publish it on the e-zine. Unlike the first article, I was all for it. The reason was to elicit the very dialog we are having here. We researched Putnam's story and could not refute it as it was, although to be honest, I think many of you are digging deeper, and that's great. If we do find out that it's fradulent, of course, we'll run that story too. This is how research works in the academic world. You put something out, then others try to refute it. I encourage you all to keep working at this, just as I encourage Putnam and Bannon to defend their work. I hope that we can keep our dialog civil too, but that might be too much to ask from a forum ;) .

Samuel Browning

05-28-2004, 12:53 PM

As Mr. Putman requested in his post I first e-mailed him some questions and he then mailed me back what was described in its title as a consultancy agreement and which I promptly erased by accident. Since I don't wish to pay Mr. Putman so that he can answer questions, here is a copy of the letter I sent him and perhaps he can answer the questions here.

Dear Mr. Putman:

My name is Samuel Browning and I am writing because I am very skeptical about Mr. Bannon's claims and thought you could provide some additional information that I could use to confirm parts on his account. In his book Bannon claimed on on August 30, 1998 that he was part of a "Wonderland Club" police and Interpol raid in which multiple suspects were killed. I have done a nexus/lexis search of florida newspapers from August and September and have found that there were only two "Wonderland Club" raids in Florida and one was in Jacksonville Florida and the other was in Miami Florida. No deaths were reported from either raid. Since this was an overt law enforcement operation rather than a covert hit, the existance of deaths would have been publically revealed. Could you please tell me in which town or city in which this raid occurred so I can contact the local authorities and confirm that this incident actually happened?

I've also called the New Orleans Police Department and they told me that they do not have a New Orleans Police Officer named Thomas Parker. Can you please tell me which command he works out of so I can contact him through an official NOPD number?

Finally could you please tell me the date and city in which Jacques Defferre was killed so I can confirm his death?

Thank you for your time.

Samuel Browning"

Since this time I have also done a lexis search for David Bannon's name in the published decisions of the Federal District Courts and Federal Circuit Courts of America (01/01/1990 to 05/25/2004) and turned up absolutely nothing. Will Mr. Putnam identify the case names, their docket numbers, and the court's in question and I will call the appropriate clerk's offices to try to confirm his story?

GeneChing

05-28-2004, 01:57 PM

Nice work, except for the accidental erasure of the file. Looking forward to hearing more.

Phrost

05-28-2004, 02:31 PM

Back off Gene! Get your own BS Hunting Lawyer.

SB's ours.

Neener.

GeneChing

05-28-2004, 04:05 PM

Well, he just signed on here this morning and his participation is more that welcome. :cool: Perhaps it's best not to be possessive of lawyers... besides, it's a free internet... ;)

rogue

05-28-2004, 04:13 PM

We have Judge Pen who is a lawyer, and I'm sure he's busy hunting something.:D

Good work Mr. S. Brown, Esq.

Phrost

05-28-2004, 04:18 PM

Of course I'm kidding. Mr. B. is spearheading the investigation into these claims over on Bullshido and he's doing such a hell of a job that I'd be concerned if he ever decided to use his powers for evil.

Your internet is free? Mine costs me $120 a month for a business class connection. :D

Samuel Browning

05-28-2004, 05:42 PM

As Judge Pen would know Lawyers are like wild animals and are not affixed to the land even if someone shoots one on one estate and they then run for the ajoining property line. (Okay maybe thats not a great example) As some of you know by now Bullshido is running a parallel investigation into this matter which can be viewed at http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12534

Personally I think the more investigation the better, as long as the people doing so can be confirmed not to be Mr. Bannon or Mr. Putman. (There is a lot of circular verification going on here, that Bannon can confirm Wolper and Wolper can confirm Bannon does not mean that either's claims were correctly established from the start). I would like to see Bannon and Putman post their replies on both forums but if they will only post here I will travel over here. BTW I'm going to copy CFW's most recent post and stick it on Bullshido, its quite good.

Stacey

05-29-2004, 02:41 PM

Attn Gene Ching:

We did fight under a bridge. It was amazingly easy. You were very drunk and in a sleeping bag.....wait...if that wasn't you...oh crap.

Goldenmane

05-30-2004, 11:22 PM

I've been following this investigation with much interest, and just wanted to give you kudos, as they say. Sterling work, and I am much of the mind that it is a very nice thing to see the growing trend for serious investigation and scholarly discourse in the martial arts that seems to be occurring these days.

I've made mention of the current controversy and investigation on my site. It's really about all I can do to support, as I am not able to participate actively in your investigation (I'm in the wrong part of the world, for one thing) but I feel that the more coverage and exposure such things get the greater their positive impact.

I look forward to watching the investigation as it develops further.

Kudos also to Gene for his support of openness in such a situation, and for being a willing participant. Shows journalistic integrity, a thing that has for many years appeared sorely lacking in much of martial arts journalism (and increasingly so in much other journalism).

Keep up the good work, all.

Samuel Browning

05-31-2004, 12:10 AM

Thank you for you're kind words Geoff, but I have to say that such thanks are premature, I envision at least another four months of poking around into Bannon's story. it will be a tedious crawl, since I'm trying to work across continents to confirm or deny little parts of his story. Ironically if Putnam would just tell me in which Florida town the wonderland police raid happened, I could theoretically confirm about 20% of Bannon's book. And no I would not try to interview "Annie" the child victim who was rescued by the raid. The police are the best source to what happened there.

Goldenmane

05-31-2004, 06:29 PM

I understand that such things take time. A real investigation doesn't happen overnight. I hope therefore that people will continue to support you in your efforts. It may make things a little less wearisome, make it a little easier to continue the pursuit of the investigation.

GeneChing

06-01-2004, 09:57 AM

Goldenmane - Thanks for the props. To be honest, part of my motivation for running the article was in hopes that this would inspire an investigation like this. Like I said before, I'm pretty skeptical myself. Sometimes as a publisher, we put stuff out in order to stimulate inquiry - I wouldn't go so far to say this is scholarly, but I'm all about serious investigation. Unfortunately, our resources are somewhat limited (but our forum is unlimited - thanks to the web)

Samuel Browning - Are you in dialog with Mr. Putnam? He's usually pretty good about email, or at least he has been with me.

Stacey - I was in the next sleeping bag :p

JasonPutman

06-01-2004, 04:09 PM

Kungfu Forum:

Thank you again for reading "Kungfu Secret Agent" and offering your comments and insights.

As a feature story for a popular magazine, the article was designed to inform, not to convince. The material was not presented as a research paper nor as a technical analysis of combat tactics. To those who enjoyed the brief article, thank you; to those who did not enjoy it, there are many worthy articles in Kungfu Magazine.

Below is an exchange from one "Samuel Browning." Mr. "Browning" is a member of this forum and presents himself as an attorney. During our brief correspondence, Mr. "Browning" did not display verifiable credentials and a legitimate professional interest, and without a consultation agreement, I am unable to offer him more of my time.

Indeed, it is difficult to offer this response to an anonymous writer who does not even provide the courtesy of an email answer to my letter, instead choosing the ethically dubious option of posting said correspondence in a public forum. I herein follow his preferred method of communication.

To others who are kindly interested in my work, please understand that there are many calls upon my time in activities that help pay my bills.

Please also understand that confidential sources are the very real means of my livelihood and are not volunteered easily to idle curiosity. It took a year to identify which names and places in Bannon's account were changed to protect innocent victims--Bannon plainly discusses the reasons for these changes in the beginning of his book.

Therefore, it is reasonable to expect that a number of the names and places identified in the book are pseudonyms, which pseudonymous identifiers I respectfully retained in my article after verification. No respectable journalist would divulge such verification to any but his publisher, for the reasons that follow.

Please allow me to offer an analogy that may explain why it might be difficult for those untrained in intelligence community investigative reportage to repeat these findings:

Please consider that it would be ludicrous for me to walk into a respected school and attempt to reproduce techniques mastered by kungfu practitioners who have studied for years. I respectfully request that you consider that it may be equally difficult for anyone without the proper contacts and years of experience to reproduce a professional journalist's research.

Contacts in the intelligence community, in particular, must be carefully nurtured and not spuriously distributed to any unverified email writer without compelling professional reasons. This is why I request such professional credentials from anyone who contacts me. As this is my living, I follow the example of other investigative reporters: It is rare that any in our profession offer confidential materials to anyone other than our publishers (and their vetting attorneys), who are under an equal ethical restraint against releasing them to those who offer no compelling professional interest with verifiable credentials.

I addressed the issue of verification previously and stand by my statements. That Mr. "Browning" is unable to duplicate the research (past pseudonyms and places) of a trained professional is surely not my concern.

I copy the correspondence with Mr. "Browning" as an example of how NOT to get a busy professional's assistance in research efforts.

As I suggested to Mr. (or Ms.) "Browning" in my final note below: "It seems clear that this project is important to you. However, for me the article was merely a small feature story written months ago. Currently, my schedule is filled with more pressing concerns."

To those of the forum who have behaved with the courtesy and firm resolve I have come to expect from practitioners of the martial arts, please accept my genuine thanks for your valuable time.

Jason Putman

---Samuel Browning Original Message 5/27/04---

Re: Some Questions about David Bannon's Account

Dear Mr. Putman:

My name is Samuel Browning and I am writing because I am very skeptical about Mr. Bannon's claims and thought you could provide some additional information that I could use to confirm parts on his account. In his book Bannon claimed on on August 30, 1998 that he was part of a "Wonderland Club" police and Interpol raid in which multiple suspects were killed. I have done a nexus/lexis search of florida newspapers from August and September and have found that there were only two "Wonderland Club" raids in Florida and one was in Jacksonville Florida and the other was in Miami Florida. No deaths were reported from either raid. Since this was an overt law enforcement operation rather than a covert hit, the existance of deaths would have been publically revealed. Could you please tell me in which town or city in which this raid occurred so I can contact the local authorities and confirm that this incident actually happened?

I've also called the New Orleans Police Department and they told me that they do not have a New Orleans Police Officer named Thomas Parker. Can you please tell me which command he works out of so I can contact him through an official NOPD number?

Finally could you please tell me the date and city in which Jacques Defferre was killed so I can confirm his death?

Thank you for your time.

Samuel Browning

---Jason Putman Response 5/28/04 (resent by request on 6/01/04)---

Samuel Browning

Re: Samuel Browning Consultation Agreement

Dear Mr. Browning:

Thank you for your letter. As a matter of policy, I do not discuss confidential material without first entering into a consultation agreement. May I ask if your interest is personal or professional?

If professional, please provide your full contact information (name, title, organization name, physical address, contact numbers) and verifiable credentials relevant to your profession (e.g. certifications, degrees, licenses, etc.).

After confirming your verifiable credentials and a legitimate professional interest, we can further discuss your relevant project and how I may assist you. At that time, I will be pleased to provide my full contact information and an overview of services and consultation fees. The terms of the fees are based on:

1. Hourly rate
2. Out-of-pocket expense
3. Specific task(s) assigned
4. Consultation Agreement terms

Thank you again and I look forward to discussing your project soon.

Jason Putman
JasonPutmanwrites@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/jasonputmanwrites

---Samuel Browning Response 5/28/04---

As Mr. Putnam requested in his post I first e-mailed him some questions and he then mailed me back what was described in its title as a consultancy agreement and which I promptly erased by accident. Since I don't wish to pay Mr. Putnam so that he can answer questions...

---Jason Putman Response 6/01/04---

Samuel Browning

Mr. Browning:

Thank you for your posted response.

It seems clear that this project is important to you. However, for me the article was merely a small feature story written months ago. Currently, my schedule is filled with more pressing concerns.

As you have not displayed verifiable credentials and a legitimate professional interest, and without a consultation agreement, I regret that I can offer you no more of my time.

Best of luck,

Jason Putman
JasonPutmanwrites@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/jasonputmanwrites

Phrost

06-01-2004, 04:46 PM

"Idle Curiosity"?

I think just about everyone here understands that this is more than "idle curiosity". We're trying to find out if there is any truth behind such dubious claims that seem to be little more than dime-store fiction.

"Please allow me to offer an analogy that may explain why it might be difficult for those untrained in intelligence community investigative reportage..."

What are YOUR credentials. They aren't listed on your website. And since you're not a secret agent yourself, I don't think there should be a problem listing them.

For example, having served in a military intelligence unit, I know for a fact that people don't just up and speak to reporters or starving writers. In fact, they're specifically instructed not to do so.

And what is dubious about discussing this issue in a public forum? After all, you're a 'reporter' aren't you? The public has a right to know whether Interpol is running around killing people, or if this guy is just a modern Walter Mitty.

rogue

06-01-2004, 07:11 PM

If professional, please provide your full contact information (name, title, organization name, physical address, contact numbers) and verifiable credentials relevant to your profession (e.g. certifications, degrees, licenses, etc.).

I think that is fair and should be provided to a trusted third party.

Jason, here's the problem as I see it. You've told a story as truth, but you can't offer anyway for this true story to be verified. Bannon has come out of the shadows so to speak, told his story about something that may be a huge horror, but now you're saying that names and places may be changed. So we're stuck with not knowing if Bannon is for real or if the child slave trade is real or if you are for real.

Please consider that it would be ludicrous for me to walk into a respected school and attempt to reproduce techniques mastered by kungfu practitioners who have studied for years. I respectfully request that you consider that it may be equally difficult for anyone without the proper contacts and years of experience to reproduce a professional journalist's research.
Oddly enough you can't reproduce it either, you want us to just take your word. I'm sure if you gave some small facts such as dates and places someone here might be able to find trace evidence for your stories without blowing anyones legend.

Samuel Browning

06-01-2004, 07:30 PM

Mr. Putman has asserted that he did not reply to my letter because I did not provide professional credentials. This is simply a red herring since his letter states "As a matter of policy I do not discuss confidential material without first entering into a consultation agreement" Since I am not being paid for looking into this matter, my interest was not professional. I wrote him because he invited the curious from this boad to do so, and therefore I did not send him an email with my credentials which are as follows.

My Connecticut Law License is Juris number, #417779 and my status as an attorney can be checked my calling the Statewide Grievance Committee in Hartford Connecticut (Area code 860) which keeps records of all attorneys licensed to practice law in the state of Connecticut. It will be listed under Samuel Pearce Browning. My professional mailing address is 671 Scotland Rd, Norwich Ct, 06360.

If you wish to be adventurous please call the University of Connecticut School of Law in Hartford Connecticut and ask the alumni office if I indeed did graduate from there with a J.D. in 1998.

For my Masters Degree in Forensic Science/Advanced Investigation, please call the University of New Haven in West Haven, Connecticut, my graduation date from this instiitution was January, 2004.

Now lets move on to the issue of claiming that you did not want to answer my questions because they would in essence expose confidential sources. My questions did not require this because it was Mr. Bannon who insisted on identifying that he was involved in a perfectly legal "Wonderland club" police raid in Florida on August 30, 1998 that you said resulted the death of four criminals who were involved in the sexual assault on a little girl.

A quick forensic comment, when someone dies in a police raid in Florida they fall under the jurisdiction of the district medical examiner and will receive an official death certificate memorializing their cause of death and a free autopsy. You tell me the town, and I'll pull their paperwork, If you can't do that, then the credibility of your account circles the drain. And you don't have to give up a single secret source, what could be better then that?

Similarly I asked for the place of death of Jacques Defferre so I could also confirm the manner of his death. Both you and Bannon use his name throughout your public works and have not previously indicated that it is a pseudonym. You even feature a picture of him in your article, if you were attempting to protect his identity you had a strange way of doing so. I even asked you for the names of the Federal appallate cases Bannon has been acting as a witness, since such cases have files accessible to the public. But you don't seem to be able to help your case even here.

"Therefore, it is reasonable to expect that a number of the names and places identified in the book are pseudonyms, which pseudonymous identifiers I respectfully retained in my article after verification. No respectable journalist would divulge such verification to any but his publisher"

If Thomas Parker was a pseudonym for a New Orleans Police Officer this should have been indicated in the article or through the footnote you gave his account. (number 26) Since there were no "Wonderland Club" raids in New Orleans we are left with the presumption that 1) No New Orleans Police Officer or person of this name observed the raid you credit to him. I understand the use of a clearly marked pseudonym, but an uncredited fake name and fake discriptive information? What sort of writer are you Mr. Putnam? BTW I got my information on the lack of a Mr. Parker by calling the personel division of "his" department. Can you provide me with his badge number to prove his existance?

Finally you write:

"As a feature story for a popular magazine, the article was designed to inform, not to convince. The material was not presented as a research paper"

This is why you provided 42 footnotes to this article, some quite lengthy to convince the reader of its reliability yet you can't provide or support basic, important, facts in Bannon's story.

I hope you can offer better proof of you're and Mr. Bannon's claims. Whether you wish to acknowledge this or not, by endorsing his story you have tied your credibility to his, and his claims will be vigorously investigated over the next several months.

Samuel Pearce Browning Esq

rogue

06-01-2004, 07:50 PM

Washington Post Ariticle on Wonderland Club Raid (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/washtech/daily/sept98/02/tech1.htm) Lists the cities of the rainds.

CFT

06-02-2004, 02:19 AM

He's also failed to explain the existence of the dubious website for his academic co-author Chiu Hse Yu, which just seems to be a copy of the official Singapore Management University page for Chiu Hse Yu.

Compare them:
Copy: http://www.geocities.com/chiuhse_yu/
Original: http://www.business.smu.edu.sg/law/faculty/chiu_hseyu.html

The article that he "co-authored" with Chiu Hse Yu for the Western Libertarian Alliance contains incorrect details for his co-author which he repeats on his own homepage (http://www.geocities.com/jasonputmanwrites/clippings.html ). She is a Lecturer in Law at the Singapore Management University NOT the National University of Singapore.

Also, the Western Libertarian Alliance article just appears in a newsletter containing articles that don't exactly seem to be peer reviewed in any way.

Does this not call into question the thoroughness of his research? If he can't even get the details of his co-author right, how can we even imagine that he has successfully verified the identities of shadowy figures from the world of international espionage?

Asia

06-02-2004, 02:29 AM

Thank you Mr Putman for responding to this thread.

Can you at least explain one issue that I am now pretty certain is false. The incident in the Wonderland Raid has to be a work of fiction. I am from Miami. I hold a govment clearnce as an active duty soldier. I have two family members who were part of the Broward County Sheriffs Department at the time of the raids. Plus I have contacted CID agents stationed in FL. All have confirmed no deaths were reported in conjunction with the raids.

It leads me to believe if that story is false, unless you can provide information saying gother wise, then the rest of the book is suspect .

If you are worried about my credintials or my claims of security clearance you can PM and I will give you my info to verify.

cerebus

06-02-2004, 03:40 AM

BAH! C'mon Asia! Can't you see they were obviously being intimidated by Interpol into covering up the deaths (unless your family members and the CID agents are in on it too!! :eek: :eek: )!:D :D :D :D

Internal Boxer

06-02-2004, 04:28 AM

Well that was a beautiful sight to behold.... Mr Putman.... Its pretty obvious where you are coming from you are full of it my friend.

Well done to Sam, and also Asia's input have certainly put a massive question mark over this story......I am looking forward to seeing the results of Sam's investigation in the coming months.

All I can say is I sincerely wish we had more peeps like the lads at Bullshido in MA.... Keep up the good work.

Samuel Browning

06-02-2004, 02:31 PM

And the phone number to the Connecticut Statewide Grievance Committee is 860-568-5157. I'm just making Mr. Putman's work of confirming my credentials a bit easier.

Samuel Browning

06-03-2004, 03:00 PM

hmmmm? Now where did Mr. Putman run off to? I am eagerly awaiting his undoubtedly well researched rebuttal.

Jason, Jason?

red5angel

06-03-2004, 03:23 PM

we may have to pay to have him back on the forum ;)

rogue

06-03-2004, 06:57 PM

Hey Red, I'd pay to keep you off of the forum!:D I had hoped Jason would have cleared up things in his story and not just make it more unbelievable. If these things are secret why are these people talking with Jason to begin with? Let's see Interpol can run a conspiracy, an assasination squad and they can't figure out who's letting the cat out of the bag?

Goldenmane

06-05-2004, 04:40 AM

TTT

Kristoffer

06-05-2004, 11:04 AM

This is bull****.
So what, Interpol have stopped the code of silence or something? Being an agent means you can't go around and speak of operations. Usually, operations like in this BS article is classified.

What's up with that, double 0?

Asia

06-06-2004, 10:31 AM

*bump*

Gene, is it possible to get this thread 'stickied' until we get this issue cleared? There as been a lot of instrest in getting to the 'truth' of story.

Phrost

06-06-2004, 10:43 AM

I agree. That way, we wouldn't have to waste space making posts (such as this one) to keep the thread at the top. :)

rogue

06-06-2004, 07:27 PM

I think it's an almost dead issue, unless Bannon or Putnam decide to play.

Samuel Browning

06-06-2004, 07:44 PM

In my personal opinion, Bannon and Putman's unwillingness to answer the questions raised or attempt to refute the points that have been made, adversely reflects upon their credibility. Gene, if I were you, I wouldn't print any more of their articles until they clean up the present matter.

cerebus

06-06-2004, 07:55 PM

Their silence answers far more loudly than their words. :cool:

GeneChing

06-07-2004, 09:42 AM

Samuel Browning

06-07-2004, 10:24 AM

There is a reason Bannon is not posting or linking to that document here on this board, Gene. It would undergo a level of scruitiny that might establish that it was irrelevant to his claims or simply a fake.

Since Bannon is evidently reading this board, I invite him to defend his claims publically, either here or on the Bullshido thread we have set up concerning his claims. I will state up front that his communications with us will not be confidential. We will not consider evidence he may offer secretly, as verses publically, and therefore cripple our ability to double check his claims. ("Oh, I killed some people, I have a receipt, but don't ask around it might blow my cover") You have made extraordinary claims in public Mr. Bannon I find it strange that you are avoiding debate when you previously had no problem making friends with every guilible reporter you could find.

I look forward to systematically fact checking your book over the next several months, in search of a growing list of inconsistancies.

CaptinPickAxe

06-07-2004, 10:52 AM

Wait...He's sworn to secrecy yet he wrote a book?

That doesn't sound right...

Asia

06-07-2004, 11:04 AM

*sigh*

I just don't get it.:confused:

I just don't see what is so hard about providing proof to back up your claims. You can't hardly use the CLASSIFIED TOP SECRET mumbo jumbo if you published a book.

Come on lets face it there is no excuse. I pretty sure I can verify any CLASSIFIED documents you may have. If Bannon operated on American soil doing some clandestine mission, espeacially involving local law enforcement, someone had to give the OK. And my inquiry would not fall under NTK because you offered the information in a public domain.

Therefore, Bannon or Putman needs to cut the BS and offer some proof. I am more than fair. If what Bannon claims checks out then I will state so, but so far I haven't seen anything that would support this story. I REALLY want you to explain the WONDERLAND incident because I am getting more and more feedback stating it is false.

YinYangDagger

06-07-2004, 03:50 PM

Who shot JF Kennedy?

rogue

06-07-2004, 07:58 PM

When did that happen?:eek:

Internal Boxer

06-08-2004, 04:21 AM

...the forum is a democracy and if the people - all of you members - want to keep something on top, it's popularity will keep it up. I'll make acceptions for announcements, and right now, there's that video thread, but frankly, if the thread isn't popular enough to have continued commentary, it should fade like 28,700+ (and counting) threads before it.

Come on Gene..............people posting on this thread does not have a correlation to a lack of interest from most members. The reason there ain't much posting on this thread is because we end up getting to the stage where we are now, where it is POINTLESS discussing it we need to verify the claims and that is what Sam is doing.

I am pretty dismayed by your attitude Gene, if you look on ANY thread you will see the original subject of the thread gets completely forgot as people end up discussing about other related subjects, there is nothing wrong with this as this is how conversation flows, SO IT HAS NO LINK WHATSOEVER TO POPULARITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It surely is in the public interest to support efforts to uncover frauds??????

The Biggest problem with Chinese Martial Arts is that not enough people are willing to stand up and fight tooth and nail to get the con artists exposed, this is a perfect opportunity to do that, and to show your lack of support Gene when you could make a difference is somewhat disheartening.
:mad:

Asia

06-08-2004, 04:34 AM

Who shot JF Kennedy?

Oswald. You'd have to wait around another 35yrs before anyone offically says any different. BAKA!

We're not the only ones questioning these claims

http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/ml...ily/5255967.htm

Now with all these pple asking questions wouldn't just be easier to provide public proof and get it over with. Stop pulling an ASHIDA KIM*

*To constantly stick to an outrageous claim but NEVER providing proof, which you profess to have, even when others provide evidence against you.:D

scotty1

06-09-2004, 05:59 AM

*looks at watch*

GeneChing

06-09-2004, 09:43 AM

My lack of support? If you examine my behavior on this thread, you'll find that I support this investigation fully. That's far more than any other magazine. Think about it for - is there any other magazine where the Associate Publisher will respond personally like this? Is there any magazine that even offers a forum like ours? Get a little perspective please.

As for keeping this thread on front page, it is popular obviously, so it's staying up there. That's democracy in action. See? On the forum, democracy actually works. ;) So we're not going to 'sticky' this thread. Your complaint is moot. Popular thread sticky themselves.

Even a voice of one can do it themselves. Any forum novice knows how to ttt. I've always thought that was a little forced, but I certainly don't forbide it. And as you can see, it has only been necessary once on this thread.

To be honest, I'm as disappointed in Mr. Bannon's lack of response as you all are. When the first article was published way back in 2001, Bannon started his own thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=7344) to respond to critics. We had some initial complaints on that article, as you might expect, but there was a torrent of letters supporting him too. Actually, to be honest again, I was a bit suspicious because there was so much support. But that was back before the rise of forums like this, so as you can see, no one responded to Bannon's initial thread.

This brings up a point that we should address here, and that is that discussion forums and web e-zines are still relatively new. Many authors avoid them. In truth (and as I've mentioned many times before) the e-zine can get more readers than the magazine over time because it's free, it's international, and it has no shelf life. But also there's the whole nature of this forum, again, a feature that our publication has offered for longer than anyone. Now, of course, we can't make any author participate in the forum, it's voluntary. And if your a professional author, you get paid to write, so it's like working for free, which no one enjoys. So I must say that it's very good of Mr. Putnam and Dr. Bannon to have participated in this discussion so far. I'll also add that I do think they should to continue to participate, since the democracy has turned against them here, and to leave the current questions unanswered is rather disconcerting.

rogue

06-09-2004, 07:13 PM

Sometimes you just can't win Gene.:)

Obviously Mr. Putnam and Dr. Bannon aren't going to play. This makes sense since if they're telling the truth then why waste time with a bunch of nuts on the web, or they're tossing the bull wasting their time with a bunch of nuts on the web may trip them up.

Samuel Browning

06-09-2004, 07:35 PM

If they are telling the truth they should play because it would bolster their credibility. I do take offense at being referred to with others "as a bunch of nuts" since I and Phrost basically post here under our real identities and Asia has offered to share his name with Mr. Putman.

We are not the people making the extraordinary claims here, Putman and Bannon are. If Bannon can take the time to promote his work he can certainly find the time to come here and answer some questions.

YinYangDagger

06-09-2004, 09:08 PM

HEY SB, I gotta ask (off the topic): Are you any kin to THE Brownings, as in Hi-Power, BAR, etc?

Samuel Browning

06-09-2004, 09:16 PM

I believe so, but the relationship is so distant as to not mean anything. From what I understand he was a fourth cousin, so many times removed from one of my pre-1860s ancestors. Its so attenuated that his branch of the family probably does not know mine exists. Bottom line, no gun gifts for moi.

rogue

06-10-2004, 05:57 AM

SB, The "bunch of nuts on the web" remark was intended to be sarcastic. I'm sorry if it came across the wrong way. :)

I agree with you SB, but if someone is appearing on TV and newpapers why does they need to bolster their credibility? The news people don't care and most of the viewers don't care. Unless you rattle their tree or the doubt reaches enough critical mass I don't see why either party would show up. Except if they wanted to do the right thing.

Asia

06-10-2004, 06:53 AM

I think alot of pple DO care. Since the story has been out pple have been questioning. It will keep going on until some proves it completely false or they prove they are it to be true. Look at Frank Dux. Pple orginally ate his story up but as more and more pple kept chipping away at it we finally got the truth. Also look at sites like AUTHENTISEAL and CYBERSEAL where pple work hard to debunk claims of covert adventures. Putman and Bannon may ignore us now but if we keep digging eventually we will get something.

Now I will get to work on my book how I single handedly killed thousands of terrorist with swiss army knife and how I actually captured Saddam (forget what CNN says) all the while being secretly employed as a covert operative of AMWAY.:D

GeneChing

06-10-2004, 09:55 AM

That often say in California there's just fruits, nuts and flakes. Given those choices, I lean toward being a nut.

Sometimes you just can't win Gene. Ain't it the truth. I've now been accused of setting Mr. Putnam and Mr. Bannon up to take a fall (not by them, mind you, by another contributor). Was that a set up? Well, with these covert operations, I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.

Seriously, one consideration is that many people don't really 'get web forums' - we all do obviously, since we're here, but it's kinda like any other nerdy pursuit at this point. If you're not into it, you wouldn't give it a second thought. Both Putnam and Bannon did make and initial attempt to participate, but they haven't followed through. Perhaps they were a bit overwhelmed. Perhaps they don't care. Whatever the case, keep perspective of our forum world, which is both little and large, depending on your point of view.

YinYangDagger

06-10-2004, 02:34 PM

Cool SB, too bad no gun priviledges, though :(

CaptinPickAxe

06-10-2004, 04:27 PM

I personally belive that y'alls work is noble and a worthy cause. So many people get duped into beliving such farfetched crap. Places like Bullshido strive to provide the truth not just a one sided account. I hope you prove these guys wrong. It makes for a good read and it won't have children playing Mr.Bannon the Government-Employed Killer (which is obviously a farse)

As for attacking Gene, I think that was wrong. Gene has supported this investigation fully.

Also, I'd like to see an article on the works of Bullshido.com. Maybe even a list of the guys and schools they've debunked.

Samuel Browning

06-10-2004, 04:28 PM

In his book Race Against Evil David Bannon says that he was given the rank of Major in the Belgian Gendarmerie as part of his cover. He claims that he served them as a H2H instructor on and off for almost a decade, and provides a picture in the insert in his book showing himself wearing what is decribed as a Gerdarmerie hat. Recently a Bullshido member "Lazy Tiger" checked into this claim, his post on Bullshido is as follows.

"- According to Marc Allen of the Belgium police there is no record of Mr David Bannon, I can forward the e-mail received from the Belgian Police.

- I found a bit more info about the hat he’s wearing in the picture, I checked with two collectors.
One collector is a Belgian police officer ( http://users.pandora.be/policecollection ) and with Claude Marchal who was the former curator of the international police museum (http://users.skynet.be/bs171567/CM1_2/INDEX.htm ).
First I must explain something about the Belgian police, before 2001 the police was dived in two major divisions. The gendarmerie and the Municipal Police (there where other departments like railroad police but this is not important in this case).

A huge difference was that the gendarmerie was under military command and had national jurisdiction.
In the picture Bannon is wearing an inspector’s hat from the municipal police not the gendarmerie. If he ever was a member of the gendarmerie this is not a mistake that he would have made, he would have known the difference.
The black shirt and tie is bull****, as already said by LolodesBois the gendarmerie dresses in blue."

GeneChing

06-10-2004, 06:24 PM

...I couldn't resist pulling up Dr. Bannon's archived e-zine article (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=508) for the biweekly e-zine update. Enjoy. :cool:

Samuel Browning

06-10-2004, 06:32 PM

Hi Gene:

Could you do us a favor and post the text of the original Bannon Interpol article in Kungfu Qigong magazine? I want to compare its account of the Wonderland raid to the version Bannon later gave in his book, to see if there are any inconsistancies between the stories.

Asia

06-12-2004, 10:31 PM

ttt

Goldenmane

06-13-2004, 01:35 AM

Should the thread be sticky? Well, we've had two TTT's so far, so some might argue that it's necessary. Personally, I don't give two squirts of goat's piddle. Instead, I'll come back here and do my best to keep the thread worth reading and posting to, which means more posting on this forum than I've consistently done for about three years. Whatever, let's see less "just wanting the stickiness" (which you can get for free with your Victoria's Secret catalogue) and more active participation.

Here's the thing: threads that are stickied get bloody boring bloody quickly if there is nothing added to them. So add something... and that kills the need for stickiness. If it's interesting enough, people will make sure it sticks around.

(Maybe Gene could take this into account occasionally... he stickies announcements. Does this mean that announcements are by nature boring and no-one reads them? Or is it just that no-one bothers to talk about them?)

Gene talks about professional writers not wanting to come to forums and effectively "work for free"... he's got a point, in a way, but hell... I'm a professional writer and I'll come here and write (well, dribble) for free because I think this issue is an important one, not just in the specific of Mr. Bannon and his claims but also in the general of too much bull**** in the martial arts world, and my desire to see an uprising against the sewage we've been wading through for so many years.

Rogue says, "Unless you rattle their tree or the doubt reaches enough critical mass I don't see why either party would show up" and in this he's pretty spot on. What's worth thinking aboput though is that the doubt isn't going to reach critical mass without all of us speaking up and making it clear that there are big questions about Bannon's claims. I want to see Bannon or Putnam appear on some daytime tv interview show hawking the book and have the doubts so raised in the public conciousness that the dude asking the questions gets serious for a moment and brings up the doubt factor.

"So, what do you say to the fact that martial artists and police officers throughout the world are calling your book a self-aggrandizing fantasy, a load of old bollocks? And what about the investigation launched by Bullshido.com?"

Make the questions big and public enough, and they'll have to answer. Ugly truth, but it's the way of this filthy world, and at no time in history has the power to do nasty things to purveyers of mythology been so firmly in the hands of those who can make it matter.

If it turns out that the claims are true, so be it. But that isn't going to come to light unless they start answering the questions.

rogue

06-13-2004, 08:18 AM

You're correct GM about the doubt isn't going to reach critical mass without all of us speaking up. But is the Puttnam/Bannon issue a big enough deal when considered against the rest of what's happening in the world and with our daily lives? I'm interested in knowing if Bannons story is real, myth or somewhere in between, I'd love to converse with both parties, but when it comes down to it it just doesn't mean that much too me or many others. Now I will be waiting to see what Samuel and the Bullshido gang finds out as these things are important to them and they have the drive to find more information on this kind of thing. Happy hunting SB and I hope your efforts bear fruit in clearing this up.

So, I vote no sticky.:)

Vash

06-13-2004, 09:33 AM

Enough stuff in my home is sticky, we don't need anything else this adhesive lying around.

Goldenmane

06-13-2004, 07:35 PM

But is the Puttnam/Bannon issue a big enough deal when considered against the rest of what's happening in the world and with our daily lives?

A question everyone has to answer for themselves, naturally. However, the way I look at it is this: There's so much BS around in the MAs that it is unavoidable. I can see the very real possibility that this BS is going to impact upon our lives more directly than the simple act of having to wade through it time and time again. It's going to get harder and harder to find the gold nuggets amongst the brown ones as the BS piles up more and more, because BS grows and spreads far more rapidly than truth.

This isn't so much the Information Age as the Disinformation Age, in that respect.

But aside from that issue, we have the further impact in the nature of lawmakers taking the BS and running with it, making laws based on strange and twisted interpretations of things they know nothing about. An example: in Victoria, Australia, the government is cracking down on the ownership of swords, bringing in laws restricting their sale and ownership. That's specifically swords. Why is this happening? Because there's been a growing history of gang members attacking each other with swords. It's not exactly an epidemic, but there is some history of it. The solution? Well, enact the same thing as gun control, naturally. Legally restrict the sale and ownership of swords, requiring people to get a permit if they want to own one or several of the diabolical things, and of course keeping them under lock and key.

Given that it's not the swords that are the cause of all this mayhem (swords don't kill people, etc) there is little real reason for this move. It's not going to have any real impact on the people who are trying to kill each other - if they want a sword, they'll either get one from somewhere, make it, or just use something else. A tyre-iron to the head does a fair whack of damage. Not being "allowed" to own a sword doesn't make a great deal of difference to people who don't give a toss about what the law says they're allowed to do. They're not "allowed" to try and kill each other either...

This sort of thing isn't exactly restricted to one place, either. Recently Ocean City (what a strange name) in the US has been cracking down on the (now illegal) sale/ownership of "martial arts weapons". It's just plain not allowed, from what I can gather.

All of this comes from the grand swill of trash information that surrounds the MAs. NHB competitions are brutal and barbaric, a black belt makes you deadly, a two week course in self defense a year ago makes you safe/r, blah blah blah. The problem is that people believe the BS, and when this becomes the prevailing view, lawmakers find it easy to do what they do best - make laws about it. And laws based on total BS are BS laws.

So at some point, it seems reasonable to choose a time and an issue to work on, to simply start to clear the BS away. The guys from Bullshido have been working on this for a while now, and good on them. This issue with Bannon might not look like a big, serious issue, and frankly I'm not sure I can see what sort of serious impact if any it will have whichever way it is resolved. It's not as though there are a great many lives hanging in the balance over it, but that's not the point as far as I'm concerned. The point is that it's been fairly widely publicised (primarily on discussion forums on the net, but this is a very wide-ranging method of communication) and the guy seems to be taking the mickey. The more real information we can get out there, and the more we can keep this in the forefront of people's minds, the greater the chance that the MA community as a whole will stop sitting back and allowing the BS to pile up.

I'm not saying that everyone needs to down tools and get on a picket line. That's an irrelevancy in this sort of case. In fact, all that is really required is pretty much what's been going on already - people commenting on it, questioning it, laughing at it, and so forth. Get the general MA mindset shifting away from believing anything without some sort of backup, or allowing people to spread crap without it being questioned loudly, widely, and at length.

Anyway, that's a bit of a lengthy rant, but I've never been known for being laconic. And hopefully it doesn't come off as too preachy or directed specifically at you, or negative or anything.

I need more coffee. :D

rogue

06-14-2004, 07:16 AM

No offense taken GM.

To quote an American with great insight into human nature, A sucker is born every minute, so people will always fall for some stupid scam. Bullshido and KFM are small potatos in the great big internet stew pot. You really have to take the fight back to the media folks who are not vetting the BS they put on the air. If Bannon is telling tall tales then that information should be sent to the media outlets that he's listed and not only on Bullshido. Also if SB can verify his info, which he seems to be doing a good job of, put the information in the readers comments section under his book on Amazon.

Giving credit where it's due, Gene Ching is letting this issue be discussed here on the website of the magazine where Bannon is a sometimes contributor. I think that says alot about Gene. Kudos Gene.

**** I think I've been tricked into keeping this thread going by Goldenmane!:D

GeneChing

06-14-2004, 10:48 AM

sb: I'll look into reposting that original article. I was kind of thinking about that myself. It was in thelast issue of 2001 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=142), which is still available as a back issue (http://store.martialartsmart.net/kunmag20novi.html), so I should probably make you buy it ;) but this situation has become of such interest, that we might put it up for free.

gdm: For the most part, I will sticky announcements whenever they involve our non-profit organization The Tiger Claw Foundation (http://www.tigerclawfoundation.org). This is because it is a charitable venture, and that requires a bit more effort. Donations are more difficult than sales. But the thread is staying up, so I really don't think you should worry about it dying. And as for writers not posting, well, I'm a writer too, obviously, so true that some do, but many don't. If I didn't hold this position, I probably wouldn't be so active here.

My hope is that this is resolved on way or the other, eventually. It would be interesting to run either a confirmation or refutation, once all the data is compiled and some conclusion is reached. If it is a fraud, it would make a fascinating article to chart the history of it, especially since it duped such jounralists as NPR. If it can't be debunked, well, that wouldn't make for as interesting an article perhaps, but still worthy of publication, if handled properly.

Judge Pen

06-14-2004, 12:00 PM

"The problem is that people believe the BS, and when this becomes the prevailing view, lawmakers find it easy to do what they do best - make laws about it. And laws based on total BS are BS laws."

Excellent post Goldenmane.

rogue

06-14-2004, 08:38 PM

From Amazon reviews section...

Reviewer: Geoffrey Ries from Oxford, Oxfordshire United Kingdom
Race Against Evil is a fascinating, highly readable and weighty addition to the relatively small number of worthwhile books about Interpol. It is a remarkable achievement that any student of the intelligence community should read.

Often regarded as a mystery, Interpol (the world association of national police forces for mutual assistance in the fight against international crimes and criminal conspiracies) is analysed and exposed in this book by a retired officer of the organisation, and its inner workings scrutinized. Untold tales of undercover work, conspiracies and outstanding bravery constitute Bannon's personal account, in which he avoids more than a brief description of Interpol in the 1930s and the murky years when it fell into the hands of the Gestapo, focusing instead on its renaissance in the 1980s.

Interpol is one of the world's most elusive organisations. Its operations remain veiled from scrutiny and to write about Interpol risks harassment and prosecution, as former members and current commentators know to their cost. Like Britain's most celebrated spymaster, William Stephenson (known by the telegraphic address, Intrepid, used for the British Security Coordination (BSC) office he ran in New York), David Bannon has been taking flak for his autobiography, Race Against Evil. But the life of the professional spy is by nature one of secret accomplishment and shadowy triumph. Trying to shine a light into this world, especially twenty years on, is a daunting exercise. If it accomplishes nothing else, it should serve to remind us of the dark world faced by such individuals.

Like so many Interpol agents, Bannon contributed silently, exercising his skills behind the scenes. The nature of the business is that he and his colleagues went largely unsung. It's part of the mythology. Efforts to emerge from the shadows naturally engender scepticism. Large, reliable news services have validated many of the facts presented in the book. Only one source - a small weekly (circ. 9,000) in the southern United States - questioned Bannon's intelligence adventures, doing so without interviews, research or qualified reportage and therefore it is irrelevant to an educated discussion of the verifiable facts presented in the book.

There is little question that Bannon has an honourable record and that he served Interpol admirably. His publications in Asian affairs and many translations - he read history at Seoul National University - are easy for any competent researcher to confirm. The larger question relates to the substance of his clandestine career. In this, the enigmatic nature of Interpol has pretty well doomed Bannon from the start. The fact that Interpol is still shrouded in public contradictions and official secrecy makes for a challenging research environment. To this day, many of the people from Bannon's Interpol circle cling tenaciously to their code of secrecy. It is very difficult to pry information from them.

Of great interest are Bannon's personal details of French-born master spy Jacques H. Defferre, to whom Interpol gave the code name Archie, who died this year at age 67 in Marseilles, France. Protean in his exploits, Defferre served as a commissioner in Interpol. During the Vietnam War, Jacques Defferre set up Interpol's spy operations in Asia and coordinated the exchange of intelligence between France and South Korea. In this capacity, he also served as a trusted and confidential intermediary between South Korea's President Park Chunghee and Interpol. Defferre's influence extended to helping shape Interpol intelligence and special operations capabilities, namely the investigative branch Rosetta and its enforcement arm, Archangel, both assigned to investigate international child traffic. Among the operations undertaken by Defferre as head of the Rosetta Division at his La Verpillere based operation was assassination of slavers. Accounts of his division's successes helped inspire awareness of the child sex trade at international conferences. A full accounting of Defferre's service has proven elusive: a reflection of the trade of intelligence and the personality of those with a vocation for it. I suspect Defferre was amused by all the controversy surrounding him. That he seems to have taken many of his secrets safely to the grave is the spy's ultimate achievement.

Epitomised in the public imagination by James Bond, Interpol's svelte and glamorous image has been peeled away by Bannon's searching revelations to reveal a less savoury truth. Here is the story of Interpol's recruitment of former criminals during the 1980s; campaigns against child sex rings in Europe and Asia; Operation Archangel; and many other little-known operations. The dealings of the Belgian Beast Marc Dutroux, the Wonderland Club, and North Korean labour camps, among others, are also fully explained, as are the many tensions that have existed and to some extent still exist between Interpol and its sister intelligence organisations especially in contentious areas such as Thailand and South Korea.

It is impossible, under the laws presently shielding Interpol, to write about its daily activities. But Interpol has a history, and this book reveals a great deal. Here for the first time is an operational history of Interpol's activities and attitudes. Bannon's is a searching story of the characters and situations in which the games have been played, and of twenty years of international political intriguing, spying and thuggery - all in the name of intelligence.

By Geoffrey Ries, a former intelligence officer.

I looked up books by Race Bannon and found this in the look inside... (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1881943070/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-6375069-0498430#reader-page) :confused: :eek:

:D Sorry...

Samuel Browning

06-15-2004, 09:46 AM

I've seen that review before and am currently chasing facts down before I post my own review on Amazon.com.

We at Bullshido are still trying to confirm Reis's claimed connection to MI6. His characterizations of Sam Boykin's article in charlotte creative loafing which states Boykin did no research is laughably wide of reality.

Man Of Mystery
David Race Bannon: former assassin for Interpol, or outrageous liar?
From: http://charlotte.creativeloafing.co...news_cover.html

BY SAM BOYKIN

Bannon, a 39-year-old husband and father, comes across as a perfectly nice and pleasant fellow. He taught computer science at colleges in Greensboro and Raleigh for about four years before moving to Charlotte in 2000 to take a job at Information Architects, which went belly-up last year. This, of course, makes his cloak and dagger claims that much harder to swallow. But then again, how are secret agents and assassins supposed to act? And what do they typically do once they retire? Maybe they're all as seemingly normal and affable as Bannon, who also claims to have black belts in hapkido and kendo, and to speak fluent Korean and Japanese. If Bannon is making it all up, he's pretty adept at deception. He's also gone to a lot of trouble -- radio and newspaper interviews, book signings, producing copious (if somewhat oblique) documents, not to mention committing to memory a catalogue of names, places and events. And for what? He's not getting rich from the book's publication. However, he is receiving increasing attention. Since the book was released last month, he's reaped a growing amount of both local and national media coverage. Some have dismissed Bannon's story as outright fantasy, and say he's little more than a Chuck Barris wannabe (the host of the 1970s Gong Show who claims he was also a CIA assassin), and a slightly unhinged guy who craves the spotlight. Others believe Bannon is telling the truth -- that he was an actual international secret agent and assassin who has decided to come clean. So is he the real deal or a delusional fraud? You be the judge.

From Missionary to Assassin
We met at a local restaurant, and as he downed one Diet Coke after another, Bannon, sharply dressed in a black suit, balding, and a little soft around the middle, told me his tale of international intrigue. Folks sitting nearby exchanged surprised looks and craned their necks to listen as Bannon related story after story of riots, prisons, assassinations, lost loves, torture and child pornographers. This is his version of events.

Bannon was born in Spokane, WA, and from an early age was involved in The Church of Latter Day Saints. It was through his involvement with the church that Bannon traveled to South Korea to do missionary work.

After he arrived in South Korea, Bannon was caught up in Korea's deadly Kwangju student riots in 1981. "The riots were very violent, and some 2,500 people were killed before American troops and the Republic of Korea took the city back," Bannon says.

While helping treat some of the wounded at a Korean school, Bannon was attacked by a rioter, who stabbed him in the back with a long knife. Using his martial arts training, Bannon snapped his attacker's neck, killing him instantly. Bannon, badly wounded in the fight, spent nearly a month recuperating in the Chonju Presbyterian Hospital. When it came time for Bannon to return to missionary life, he says his experiences during the riots left him confused.

"I had to deal with the fact that here I am at 18, and I've taken someone else's life," he says. "I had all these conflicting emotions that were playing havoc with me."

Bannon began to pull away from the mission life, and fell in with a group of smugglers. He was dealing with mostly innocuous contraband -- liquor, magazines, candy -- and it was a quick and easy way to make some money. But his stint in smuggling soon brought him into contact with some criminals who tried to rip him off. A fight ensued, and Bannon was thrown into Korea's infamous Taejon Prison, "home" to many political prisoners.

A few months into his sentence, Bannon was prematurely and mysteriously released. Waiting outside the prison for him was Commissaire Jacques Defferre of Interpol's national headquarters in Lyon, France. Defferre had heard about Bannon's bravery during the Kwangju riots, and thought he might prove useful. "The way Defferre laid it out to me was that he needed a snitch, and I was going to be it or I could go back to jail," Bannon says. "He knew I had connections as a smuggler, and he wanted me to use those connections to get him information."

Thus, says Bannon, began his career with Interpol. He was given a "legend" --essentially an in-depth cover identity -- and started working as a low-level informant. "They set me up in this apartment; I had a salary; I was traveling to France, and I was 19! I thought it was the coolest thing in the world."

Bannon soon proved himself as intelligent, capable and a quick learner. His martial arts skills and fluency in Korean and Japanese also made him valuable. Interpol began assigning him to more sensitive cases.

During this time, he met and fell in love with Sidelle Rimbaud, a beautiful French Direction de Surveillance du Territorie (DST) agent, who specialized in countering illegal drug trade, organized crime and arms proliferation. The couple moved into a small French villa, and made plans to marry. However, in 1982, Bannon, along with Rimbaud and a Korean National Intelligence Service (NIS) agent named Lee Hyung-Jin, was assigned to break up a group of North Koreans who were smuggling child porn to fund their terrorist cell. After weeks of surveillance, the teams descended upon a warehouse in Marseilles, where several of the terrorists were hiding. A vicious shootout followed, and Rimbaud was fatally shot in the chest and neck.

Bannon was devastated, but also furious and hungry for revenge. He says Interpol capitalized on his desperate frame of mind, and recruited him for Archangel, a secret branch of Interpol designed specifically to hunt those who traffic in children and kiddie porn. Bannon was given an intensive psychiatric exam, which determined he had the right combination of aggression and empathy to work as an Archangel operative.

"Archangel wanted someone with a tendency to accept violence as a solution to conflict," Bannon says. "However, that had to be weighed with a strong ethical base. In other words, someone who could both negotiate with people and slap them around. I seemed to fit that profile."

He was soon sent to a giant warehouse outside Lyon, France, where he underwent an intensive training regimen to prepare for the many dark and dangerous deeds he would be asked to do. Bannon rose each morning at 5:30am, and with a few other agents underwent rigorous exercises and weight training. This was followed by classes in unarmed combat and gruesome assassination techniques using fighting knives and stilettos. Bannon soon discovered that he had a knack for bladed weapons. His specialty was known as "wet work," or close-quarter, quiet assassinations.

Bannon said he was also shown horrific images of child pornography, rape and torture.

"This was the propaganda they used," he says. "To create this demonic Other, and encourage this sense of outrage in us and convince us that we were part of something bigger than ourselves. That we were the only ones who could possibly stop these villians."

Bannon was also tutored in international business lingo and practices, which would enable him to blend into the corporate world with ease, as his legends would often require. He went through grueling interrogations where he was drilled again and again on minute details of different legends. In the dangerous world of Archangel, one little slip-up could mean certain death. After three months of this type of extreme physical and mental training, it was time to go to work.

Samuel Browning

06-15-2004, 09:49 AM

Part II

Cleaning House
Bannon's first "cleaning assignment" took place in Romania. His target was "James," a known child molester who dealt in child prostitution and pornography. Bannon's legend was that of a young executive from a global company looking for cheap Romanian labor.

Bannon located James, who posed as an import/export broker, at his Romanian office. For several days Bannon shadowed James, and eventually followed him to Transylvania, where James took a tour of Bran Castle, better known as Castle Dracula, a big tourist trap in Romania. With Bannon looking on, James was approached by a middle-aged Romanian, and the two men left the castle together. Bannon followed the men through a network of alleys, and finally to a parked car. After James handed over a wad of cash, the other man opened the car door and pulled out a young girl. Bannon sprang into action. A quick strike to the throat of the Romanian, and a thrust of his utility knife into the heart of James, and both men lay dead.

Bannon says he spent the remainder of that evening curled up in the corner of his Romanian hotel room.

"Here was this little girl who I helped save," Bannon says. "On the other hand, when you felt the dull, throbbing horror of taking another person's life, it's hard to feel justified. It was a bizarre mix."

Archangel continued to send Bannon on investigations and "cleaning assignments" all over the world, the exact number of which Bannon won't say. But the first few years -- the early to mid-80s -- were the most intense and active.

However, it wasn't all work. In 1983, Bannon began dating "Shin," a beautiful Korean performance artist who lived in Seoul. Although a romance flourished, Bannon kept his true identity a secret, telling her he was a Canadian businessman. The two had been dating only a couple of months when Shin disappeared while in Osaka, Japan, for a performance gig. Using his Archangel connections with the Japanese yakuza, or mafia, Bannon learned that Shin was last seen in a small Japanese village called Yonago, where a known violent fetishist was bragging that he had graphic sexual pictures of a Korean woman. Bannon and his contact tracked the man to a small farm, where they found him working in the fields. While Bannon searched the farmer's house, his partner approached the suspect and started asking him questions. When Bannon heard the two men struggling outside, he grabbed a baseball bat and sprinted toward the commotion. His partner was badly hurt, and the farmer's arm was broken. Bannon, after an intense struggle, finally dropped his adversary with a blow to the neck using the bat. His partner finished the job with a hatchet.

After the fight, Bannon searched the farmer's house for his girlfriend. Eventually he found Shin. She had been dismembered and stuffed in a freezer.

It was also during this time that Bannon investigated a North Korean terrorist who also happened to be a double agent and longtime friend. He intercepted her as she was about to plant a bomb outside a South Korean national security agency. Before she could execute her plan, Bannon used lethal force to stop her. As he stood over her body, he was struck from behind and knocked unconscious. He awoke in the back of a truck as it approached Korea's Taejon Prison. Bannon says that as the truck pulled up to the prison's front gates, he noticed "wild dogs and pigs gnawing on corpses that were buried under piles of rock and stone." Bannon was stripped naked and detained with thousands of other prisoners. During this time he was tortured and interrogated, and witnessed horrors such as people being tossed alive into furnaces, or attacked by dogs. Bannon says his Archangel training prevented him from losing his mind during the ordeal. After three days, Bannon was returned to Interpol officials in what he calls a "classic spy swap."

Archangel was disbanded in 1989.

"Officials felt Archangel was guilty of vigilantism," Bannon says. "However, the head of Archangel still had a number of operatives that he wanted to slowly work into legitimate work, including me."

Bannon continued to work as an operative for Interpol for the next 10 years, investigating several high profile cases, including the famous raids on the Wonderland Club in "98. In a sophisticated operation, police arrested over 100 people from 12 different countries who belonged to a club in which the guidelines stated that members had to have at least 10,000 sexual pictures of children under the age of 13.

Finally, in "99, Bannon had had enough.

"I wasn't as young as I used to be, I had a daughter, it just wasn't working for me," Bannon says. "I did what a lot of people do when they want to get fired I got really lame at my job. I showed up late, I wouldn't return calls, and it worked."

Returning to mainstream society, however, wasn't easy. "It was like I had post-traumatic stress disorder," Bannon says. "I was almost incapable of functioning in normal society. I couldn't talk about what I did, and everyone I met I was trying to assess if they were child molesters. . . From the day I was recruited into Archangel, I lived in fear. In my book, I purposely wrote about events that happened 20 years ago. So many of those people are dead or in jail or just don't care anymore. I skipped over pretty quickly the events of recent years. I'm not ready to share those just yet."

Where's the Beef?
An amazing story, right? An amazing, incredible, edge-of-your-seat, holy **** kind of story. But is it true? Or is it all just the fantasies of a middle-aged, mild-mannered computer geek? And if it's true, why isn't it making headlines around the world?

A quote from a recent Publishers Weekly review might be one reason: ". . .if there is any truth to be found in this story, his former collaborators on both sides of the law must be allowing its publication only because they realize how completely implausible it all sounds."

Indeed, Bannon's biggest drawback is that he has too good a story. Nonetheless, plenty of folks, including members of the local media (not to mention dozens of starry-eyed fans who showed up at Bannon's recent Borders book signing) believe he's the real deal.

Charlotte Observer reporter Olivia Fortson, who wrote a story about Bannon, says she believes him 100 percent.

Ramona Holloway, who, along with on-air partner Matt Harris (the "Matt and Ramona" show on 107.9 The Link) interviewed Bannon, believes him as well. "Matt is a little skeptical," she says. "But I buy his story hook, line and sinker."

Samuel Browning

06-15-2004, 09:53 AM

Part III

In Creative Loafing's attempt to get to the bottom of the whole saga, we did the obvious asked for evidence. Bannon and his publisher supplied CL with reams of documents, most of them ancillary copies of news magazine and website stories about Interpol and the fact that the agency targets terrorists and child pornographers; no mention was made, however, of killings by Interpol agents. The publisher also provided some rather oblique documents showing what they allege to be Korean bank statements showing money given to Bannon by Interpol, as well as alleged Interpol papers "seeking to recruit a Crime Intelligence Officer for its Trafficking in Humans Crime Sub-Directorate." The recruitment documents are so specific they even include working hours: "37 1/2 hours a week with a 45-minute lunch break." They were all documents that we or anyone else could have typed up at the office with the help of a Korean dictionary and some creative government doublespeak. There was really nothing conclusive about any of it -- no official Interpol seal, no signature, nothing.

Lynda Hatch, publicity director of New Horizon Press, Bannon's publisher, says that given the clandestine nature of Bannon's assignments, the "trail of evidence is sometimes murky and indistinct," and that "the organization (Interpol) will claim no knowledge of him."

Hatch is right. We contacted Michael Rose, chief press officer for Interpol in Lyon, France. (To date, it appears that CL is the only media outlet to have contacted Interpol to get their reaction to Bannon's book.) When asked to confirm or deny if Bannon had ever worked for Interpol, Rose responded with this official statement:

"Interpol's General Secretariat in Lyon has no record of David Race Bannon having been employed and no knowledge of individuals mentioned in Mr. Bannon's book. Interpol exists to facilitate the exchange of information between the world's law enforcement agencies and to provide analysis of criminal data and other services. Accordingly, if the claims in Mr. Bannon's book are in fact as have been reported to Interpol, they can only be seen as deceptive and irresponsible fantasy."

Bannon says he expected nothing less from Interpol.

"The official Interpol stance has always been that they're really nothing more than a clearing house of data," Bannon says. "It's so simplistic it's almost funny --that they're nothing more than a giant computer. Then why do they need this vast network across 170-plus countries with officers all over the world?" Bannon says the only way to really support his story is through the testimony of others.

CL tried that route as well. In his book, Bannon writes often about Lee Hyung-Jin, who Bannon says is a longtime friend and Korean NIS agent he worked with on many cases. There is a testimonial signed by a Hyung-Jin in Bannon's book, which, in broken English, essentially supports Bannon's story. At our prompting, Bannon said he contacted Hyung-Jin, who he says is now a college professor in South Korea, and asked him to contact us. A few days later, I received an email from a Hyung-Jin that, again, in broken English, backed up Bannon's story, saying his book was "sad but true," and even though he lived a "careful life with a college job," he would talk to CL for the story. In his email, Hyung-Jin indicated Bannon had forwarded him my number, and he would call. I responded and asked what day and time would best fit his schedule. I never heard from him again.

There's also a testimonial in Bannon's book from Jacques Defferre, the man Bannon claims recruited him into Interpol. Bannon said he contacted Defferre and asked him if he could contact CL for this story. Moreover, Fortson of the Observer received an email from Defferre, which she quoted in her story, saying he was angry with Bannon for telling everything to an "unforgiving world," but that Bannon "must write the truth as he must breathe, it is his nature." Fortson, who never spoke to Defferre in person, also forwarded my contact information to Defferre via email. I never heard from him. In fact, CL still doesn't really have any proof that Defferre or Hyung-Jin actually exists.

Bannon has also written several stories for Kungfu Qigong magazine, including one in the November/December 2001 issue about his involvement in the Wonderland Club arrests. In that story, Bannon, using a knife and baton, busted into a hotel room and rescued an 8-year-old girl who had been kidnapped by members of the child pornography network. After the story was published, several people wrote letters to the magazine, some saying the story was absolute hogwash, and others --including, yes, Hyung-Jin and Defferre -- to commend Bannon on a job well done. We tried to contact Martha Burr, who was executive editor of Kungfu Qignong at the time, to ask if she believed Bannon's story. Associate Editor Gene Ching responded, and informed us that Burr no longer worked for the magazine. When we asked Ching if he believed Bannon, he replied, "To be honest, I don't really know. I've never really interacted with Bannon personally so I haven't formed an opinion of him either way. When that article was published we had a few skeptics, but we also had many supporters contact us. I will be very interested in your findings."

Bottom line, Bannon was unable to produce a single document or piece of evidence to prove his claims. But then again, no one has yet to produce a piece of evidence that disproves his story. There is, in fact, no "smoking gun" from either side.

"I wish there were," Bannon says. "It's certainly legitimate for people to ask if this is all real or not. But in the end, people are just going to have to make up their own mind."

Contact Sam Boykin at 704-944-3623 or sam.boykin@cln.com

__________________

Samuel Browning

06-15-2004, 10:21 AM

So Reis writes on Amazon.com:

"Large, reliable news services have validated many of the facts presented in the book. Only one source - a small weekly (circ. 9,000) in the southern United States - questioned Bannon's intelligence adventures, doing so without interviews, research or qualified reportage and therefore it is irrelevant to an educated discussion of the verifiable facts presented in the book. "

This assertion is incorrect based on reading Boykin's article. (reprinted above) He interviewed Bannon, looked at his documents, and went to Interpol for their comment on the matter. Then Reis claims that Boykin did not do any research. Bull****. The problem that Boykin uncovered is that Bannon did not even have a document with a signature or on Interpol letterhead dispite working for them for almost two decades. (1981 to at least 1998) not even a pay stub from Interpol itself or the Belgian Gendarmerie, his supposed cover job.

As far as large reliable news services go, Bannon appeared on a number of radio shows (famed for their pre appearance investigations, sarcasm intended) and in the pages of the Charlotte Observer which only apparently obtained and printed Interpol's denials of Bannon's claims AFTER their article accepting Bannon's claims was printed.

Generally speaking the verified facts Reis refers to involve information that does not establish Bannon is who he says he is. The North Koreans torture people in their prison camps, using water torture (forcing water down a person's throat, and then applying force to their stomachs.) Bannon claimed he witnessed this while in a North Korean camp, a news source later commented that the NKs were carrying out such a form of torture which has been practiced by many different governments. Such information is claimed to prove Bannon was imprisoned by the NKs ignoring that he could have learned of such torture by reading another earlier news account, or simply guessed correctly one of the many ways the NK's abused their prisoners.

Reis's Amazon endorsement is a hatchet job on Boykin's article and deliberately makes mistatements about his article, raising questions about Reis's reliability as a source of information.

Goldenmane

06-15-2004, 07:36 PM

To quote an American with great insight into human nature, A sucker is born every minute, so people will always fall for some stupid scam. Bullshido and KFM are small potatos in the great big internet stew pot. You really have to take the fight back to the media folks who are not vetting the BS they put on the air. If Bannon is telling tall tales then that information should be sent to the media outlets that he's listed and not only on Bullshido.

You're right on this. But the information can't be sent without it being discovered, and that is the point, I think, right now of continuing public discussion. Keep the investigation transparent and open, so when the final results are in and the media people get them in the mail, then turn around to maybe finally do some checking of their own... well, the whole **** thing is on public record and there are hundreds of people in the MA community who can say, "yes, I was there, I followed the investigation and the discussions about it, and it seems pretty clear cut."

The key, I think, is following through to a resolution of the issue. It doesn't matter so much whether Bannon's telling porkies or not. That's certainly the main aim of this investigation, and it shouldn't be forgotten. But the larger impact is going to come at the end of it all, when it is resolved and all those people who were involved either directly as investigators or indirectly as commentators or even observers can sit back and say, "well, look at what we can do if we put our minds to it."

We all know the pleasure that comes from seeing something to completion. The lion's share of this pleasure rightly belongs to those, like Mr. Browning, who are actively pursuing the investigation. When it is finally resolved one way or the other, the rest of us should buy them a beer down the pub in recognition. However, I expect that everyone who has participated will at that point feel *something* positive.. and that may serve to increase the push against this flood of BS that's threatening to drown us.

That all sounds kinda sappy and stuff, and isn't really making clear what I started out to get across, but what the hell. Restate: There's too much bullshido (to steal a term). I'm personally getting very tired of having to wade through it. I'm tired of repeatedly having to explain just exactly what's wrong with statements like "he's got a black belt.. he must be deadly" and all those other ones that come out of the mouths of the ignorant masses, many of whom should know better than to get their information from movies. Nobody in the general media repeats BS endlessly about football, or motor racing, or history... well, perhaps they do, but few of the people actually involved in motor racing come out with comments on the level of "martial arts isn't about fighting" and deep down believes it, let alone manages to make a living peddling it.

We are involved in a pasttime, and industry, that has grown up and thrived in modern times by eating its own excreta, and feeding it to its offspring. People who "have been studying the martial arts for ten years" still believe extremely stupid things. Witness the number of people out there who hold with religious fervour to the idea that 'kung fu was invented by the Shoalin monks'. Many of these people take this idea to even more insane and delusional extremes, and insist that all martial arts everywhere, every system that was ever devised, have their roots in a bunch of exercises taught to a load of fat tired guys in a temple by a wandering Indian guy who created tea by cutting off his own eyelids and bored a hole in the wall of a cave by staring at it for nine years. Go tell those guys that they're a little screwy in their view of history, physics, biology, and human nature and they'll get all huffy... and then go back to teaching poor unsuspecting fee-paying ignorant students this garbage.

Now, I'm in no way altruistic about this. I don't, in fact, actually give a **** if people want to allow themselves to be ripped off. But I don't want to be ripped off myself, and in essense making it harder to find the real good information that I'm so interested in is a form of ripping me off. Breeding masses of propaganda-replicating halfwits means the BS just keeps piling up. And it makes my life harder.

I'm lazy. So sue me.

Plus, of course, I like being able to own big sharp pointy metal things and not get hassled by the cops for it. I like what I do, and I'm not keen on it being made more difficult to do it.

Here's another aspect of this issue: We've all come across the so-called "Martial Arts Documentaries"... and we've all either chuckled at them or hung our heads in despair. You knw what I'm talking about - the ones that insist that people kicking each other in the balls constitiutes one of the ten deadliest systems in the world, or that dudes dancing around and yelling a lot are serious and deadly fighters...

How many decent documentaries are there on the subject that is so close to our hearts? Not many, and they are vastly outnumbered by the ones that are 99% rubbish. These latter are about as documentary as Reefer Madness. I love watching documentries, but more so when they are real than when they are fiction pretending to be real. So called 'documentary makers' always seem to go find the most enthusiastic half-wit they can find and bill them as an 'expert'.. would it be so bad if these people were dragged out in public and shot for defrauding everyone?

Holy goodness, I'm on a roll on this issue. I've gone from a simple premise of, "hey, it'll be interesting to see what comes of this investigation" to a **** crusade rant. Someone pour some ice water on me, cool me down.

I'll have a break and come back when I'm a little more calm. :)

Goldenmane

06-15-2004, 08:07 PM

Gene:

gdm: For the most part, I will sticky announcements whenever they involve our non-profit organization The Tiger Claw Foundation. This is because it is a charitable venture, and that requires a bit more effort. Donations are more difficult than sales. But the thread is staying up, so I really don't think you should worry about it dying. And as for writers not posting, well, I'm a writer too, obviously, so true that some do, but many don't. If I didn't hold this position, I probably wouldn't be so active here.

Fair enough, and good points. I've been a member here for years, but never posted a great deal because my main dealings lie elsewhere. I post a lot over there, for mcuh the same reason.

My hope is that this is resolved on way or the other, eventually. It would be interesting to run either a confirmation or refutation, once all the data is compiled and some conclusion is reached. If it is a fraud, it would make a fascinating article to chart the history of it, especially since it duped such jounralists as NPR. If it can't be debunked, well, that wouldn't make for as interesting an article perhaps, but still worthy of publication, if handled properly.

Indeed, and agreed.

rogue:

**** I think I've been tricked into keeping this thread going by Goldenmane!

Hehehe... my plan is working perfectly... :D

Goldenmane

06-16-2004, 11:33 PM

...but never mind that. It doesn't matter that rogue has rebelled against the great plan to keep this thread alive, and that everyone else is off doing strange things to themselves over the BL thread hijackings...

The important thing is that someone can be bothered to post even this puerile bulls*it to keep the spirit alive.. or maybe just to annoy everyone and have KFM'ers plan on hunting him down for impertinence.

It's pretty hard to rant effectively when everyone ignores you.. maybe I should take that as a life lesson.

GeneChing

06-17-2004, 09:34 AM

I have a very vague memory of Boykin's call on Bannon's story. It was clear that he had an agenda since his line of questioning and his tone was quite pointed, which is somewhat slanted journalism, but I'd be lying if I said I haven't done the same thing in my own work on occassion. By that, I'm not trying to invalidate the invalidator, but it's important to realize that he seemed to be after a foregone conclusion. I seem to remember that we talked for some time over the phone - it was a one-shot interview - and after his interview, I wondered what I had said - to be honest again, I wasn't as concerned about his position on Bannon, I was more concerned about if he had managed to fluster me with his line of questioning and made me contradict myself. That seemed to be his strategy at the time. I didn't see the article until some time later when I stumbled on it doing a vanity search (I have this running bet with some buddies of mine on vanity serach counts). To be honest once more, I had forgotten about it. Ultimately, I felt he represented my opinion on the topic at the time fairly.

rogue

06-17-2004, 07:18 PM

It's pretty hard to rant effectively when everyone ignores you.. maybe I should take that as a life lesson. That'll teach you for tricking me into popping this thread to the top. **** you did it again.:mad: :D

It would be funny if the Bannon story is mostly on the up and up. I've heard some almost as fantastic as Bannons.

Goldenmane

06-20-2004, 04:48 AM

... and now I have to do it again, drunk, and with none of my usual sublety and suave sophistication.

I was thinking about this today, and I know it isn't going to be something that's resolved quickly... but I don't really know if letting the thread drift off into the outer wilderness until some more info comes through on the case is the best bet, or if we are better off just rambling complete nonsense at each other in the hopes of keeping the thread alive over the months it is going to take for people from another board to pursue this investigation.

I don't know. I personally am going to keep an eye on this thing, in the possibly vain hope that more people will start to make it a part of thier lives to look critically at and openly question things.

Hell, maybe rogue will reply to this... i know I haven't really given him a hook or anything, but maybe for old time's sake...

Samuel Browning

06-21-2004, 02:01 PM

Dear Mr. Browning,

Thank you for contacting the Press and Information Office in Washington
DC.
Here is the written account of the voicemail I left this morning.

I contacted a DST employee this morning and she did not find any Sidelle
Rimbaud in DST's files.

To obtain a death certificate, please write a letter to state the demand
and make sure to write the first name and last name of the deceased, as
well as the date of her death. Send the letter to:
Direction des Operations Funebres
380 rue St Pierre
13005 Marseille

Please make your demand in French if possible as few people speak
English in the department.

Hope this helps. Do not hesitate to contact us if you need further
assistance.

--
Cordialement / Regards,
Service de Presse et d'Information / Press & Information Office
Ambassade de France / Embassy of France
Washington, DC

Last week I contacted the French Embassy and asked Amaury Laporte, (202-944-6061) If the DST had any record of David Bannon's fiancee being killed in the line of duty. I gave them her first and last name and indicated that she may have been killed in Marceille in the early 1980s. This is their reply. In Jason Putnam's on-line Inside Kungfu article he indicated "Rimbaud's grave, and [the] Directorate of Territorial Security plaque honoring her death in the line of duty, are in La Treille, a small town in the hills behind Marseilles." Putman and Bannon are saying that the DST has publically acknowledged Rimbaud's death in the form of a public plaque, therefore they cannot now claim that the DST has any motive to lie and say that they do not know who this fallen employee is. To put it mildly this really hurts the credability of Bannon's account.

rogue

06-21-2004, 07:42 PM

Samuel, thanks for keeping this updated and thanks for the effort you're putting in.

cerebus

06-22-2004, 12:04 AM

Mister Browning, on behalf of many honest, truth-respecting martial artists throughout the world, I hereby confer upon you the grade of Blackbelt in "Research-Fu".

Bullshyte artists of the MA world, fear Mister Browning. He will OWN your azzes!

Awesome research guy! :) :) :)

GeneChing

06-22-2004, 10:36 AM

Once your research is conclusive, you'll must compile it into a submission for publication. BTW, we just updated our writer's guidelines (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/about/guidelines.php) - check it out and let me know if you have any questions. :cool:

Samuel Browning

06-22-2004, 04:20 PM

Sure, I would be happy to write an article once Bullshido's investigation is mostly concluded, though there are enough details to take us into at least October before we finish. Hey, this investigation stuff takes time to do correctly. Gene, anyway I could get a complimentary copy of the original Bannon article? I have a fetish for checking details.

YinYangDagger

06-22-2004, 04:33 PM

I have a fetish for checking details.

Me too. I was kicked out of elementary school for playing gynecologist.

uhh, anyway, this should put it back up to the top

:D

GeneChing

06-22-2004, 04:35 PM

Make sure it's all right before submitting it. We don't want someone calling BS on you calling BS. ;) PM me your mailing address.

David Jamieson

06-22-2004, 04:55 PM

well, all stories aside, the slave trade on planet earth is alive and well by all accounts and it takes many forms, some more veiled than others.

while the problem is huge in the third world according to the National Geographic Society who as recently as 2003 did a feature on slave trading, It does not have a lot of apparency to the western nations.

There is also indentured slavery throughout the world still practiced. Many examples even in Western cultures, generally within ethnic enclaves. For instance, factory workers brought across the border into the states from mexico by criminal organizations. Sure, the people get work, but it costs them far more to get over to the states to get it and they wind up in a slavery type situation where they owe the criminal organization for years before they actually are free from their contract with them if ever.

The same things were happening in other communities as well and in recent history too.

So, is Bannon real? Well, if not, he's in over his head making up stories and co-opting a theme to launch himself into some fantasy realm.

If he is for real, I would deem his focus to be entirely limited and perhaps he might want to undertake doing some real exposure wor for the problem instead of just selling his own over the top story again and again on the marketing power of lurid intrigue.

anyway...carry on, I'm still reading with interest! :)

cheers

cerebus

06-22-2004, 11:34 PM

Sad but true. :(

CFT

06-24-2004, 05:25 AM

I think the net is closing in on Mr. Putman ...

He has removed the Western Libertarian Alliance article, that he was supposed to have co-authored with Chiu Hse Yu, from his clippings page (http://www.geocities.com/JasonPutmanwrites/clippings.html)

Also, the dubious homepage for Chiu Hse Yu (http://www.geocities.com/chiuhse_yu/), which was a clone of her Singapore Management University homepage, has been replaced with a blank screen with the message: "Thank you for visiting. Please contact me directly via email or phone".

BTW, at the time of Mr. Putman's original post in this thread back in May 2004, she had already joined the Law Faculty of the University of Leicester, England in September 2003 (http://www.le.ac.uk/law/staff/hyc8.html).

What's going on, eh?

GeneChing

06-24-2004, 09:27 AM

Yesterday, I sent you the back issue to aid in your research, plus another issue in which we ran all the letters we received about the article. At the time, I thought the reaction was a bit much. We recevied a few negative letters, not that much more than usual really - people are always griping about something - but then we received this huge wave of support letters. That was a bit odd. Dr. Bannon was aware of the detractors at the time, but he said that he didn't contact the supporters to elicit letters. Anyway, have a look. We're happy to give bullshido some props for all of this and happy to cooperate with this investigation, so when you wind up with something publishable, be sure to send it here.

BTW, I have not heard from either Dr. Bannon or Mr. Putnam since the posts on this thread.

Samuel Browning

06-24-2004, 12:29 PM

Gene:

I was wondering, have you or any members of your staff ever met Mr. Putman and can therefore confirm he exists in the flesh.

GeneChing

06-24-2004, 01:17 PM

I was waiting for you to ask that one. The answer is no. I am the only one in this office who has ever corresponded with Mr. Putnam and only via email. We're never even talked on the phone.

curiouser and curiouser, eh? ;)

CFT

06-25-2004, 02:26 AM

Originally posted by JasonPutman
Bannon himself wrote his first account for Kungfu Magazine in 2001, as Gene has noted, and then told the full story in his book from New Horizon, which was fully vetted by the attorneys of the book's distributor, Penguin-Putnam (no relation, darnit).Is this guy dyslexic or does he not realise that Putman and Putnam are actually two different names?

Gene, you consistently use Putnam; are we missing something?

GeneChing

06-25-2004, 09:44 AM

It should be Putman. I do suffer from a little dyslexia. I blame it on having to work with so much Chinese stuff. It messes with the way I read. Also it's all the submissions that I have to review which we reject. That's very bad for my ability to write right. ;)

CFT

06-27-2004, 02:34 AM

Gene,

I was more puzzled why Jason Putman himself thought that anyone would cofnuse Putman with Putnam. Putnam was a publisher that I had heard of before, as well as Penguin, but I've never heard of a large publishers called Putman.

Samuel Browning

06-27-2004, 08:18 PM

Hi Gene:

I did receive the magazines you sent and thank you very much. The story that Bannon tells in his book "Race Against Evil" chapter 23 and the story he tells in the Nov/Dec 2001 Kungfu Qigong involving a raid capturing and killing child pornographers, are almost identical except that 1) in the magazine article he does not mention Archangel or being an interpol assassin. 2) More curiously in the magazine article Bannon does not mention that this event was connected to the Wonderland Club raids as he does repeatedly in chapter 23 of his book which I find rather odd. It would have bolstered his earlier account to have included this detail, even in passing.

I am reading the letters sent by various people to Kungfu Qigong in support of Mr. Bannon and they are providing some interesting details. I do have a question concerning the letters sent by Jacques Defferre, Toni Brynes, Kim, Seungho, Ph.d and Annie's Father, (Name and Address withheld by request) Were these actual letters with signatures, postmarks from where they were sent, and return addresses or were they sent by e-mail? Did Defferre, Brynes, or Seungho send their letters on official stationary?

If they were sent regular mail, I could pursue the matter more efficiently if I had the complete return address of Defferre, Brynes, and especially Seungho, but that raises an important ethical question of whether you can provide that level of cooperation to an outside researcher. I'd only argue that given the circumstances a factual investigation is warranted by fairly compelling circumstances and that would justify the release of information that would otherwise not be released. Since Bannon claims Defferre is dead, the release of his claimed Verdun, France address would be the most warranted.

As for Annies father, I don't want to know his name or his address, but if I had his town, that would definately narrow down my search for the location of the raid in which four perps allegedly died on August 30, 1998. It would narrow down my search to a couple police departments and probably one medical examiner district office.

Samuel Browning

06-29-2004, 03:56 PM

I recently got this e-mail from one of my acquaintances at Bullshido who goes by the screen name Wastral. A number of years ago Wastral served in the US Army in Korea and studied Korean. Here is his e-mail and I am posting it with his permission, I did edit it a bit. See the . . . marks.

"In Bannon's book he claims to have been in Kwangju [South Korea] during the catastrophic riots and a student takeover of the city in 1981. [SB note: this is when Bannon claims he killed his first man who had just stabbed him.]

The riots occurred of course in 1980, and during the same calendar dates he cites. Bizarrely, he notes this, claiming that the anniversary sparked it. He claims hundreds were killed and thousands [were] wounded before South Korean military units stormed the city and 'restored order'. This is what happened in 1980. I can find no mention of any similar riots in 1981. He claims that the scale was smaller, only hundreds were killed, but the official figure on 1980 continues to be less then two hundred [dead]. The idea that a Korean university student would stab him in the back while the the city is being stormed by 'paratroopers' is nonsensical.

I will do some deeper digging but so far as I can find no evidence to support that such an event occurred. Take note, a riot in which HUNDREDS of citizens are killed would be a hugely significant event . . . Likewise only a year after the city was brutally cracked down on, to the tune of 2,000 dead (as claimed by residents and participants) would they really have an identical riot? It sounds like his timeline didn't fit the story, so he changed the timeline. . . ."

YinYangDagger

06-29-2004, 06:46 PM

I heard through the grapevine (sorry, my sources MUST remain confidential) that Putman actually learned some of his "unarmed killing techniques" in a private meeting with Chuck Barrris. Apparently, Barris and Putman were good friends, although they never claimed each other's association.

Goldenmane

06-29-2004, 11:35 PM

...okay, so who's Chuck Barris?

Shaolinlueb

06-30-2004, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by Goldenmane
...okay, so who's Chuck Barris?

http://chuckbarris.thegongshow1976.com/

i googled it. :D

then i found this
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030207.html

MasterKiller

06-30-2004, 07:16 AM

Watch Confessions of a Dangerous Mind (http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&id=1808403540&cf=info&intl=us)

GeneChing

06-30-2004, 10:10 AM

Let's see if I can piece it back together.

I don't remember getting receiving any regular mail and certainly don't remember seeing any stationary. We do keep files on regular mail, so I'll dig through the files and see if I find any (in fact, I was planning to do that Monday, but with the forum hack, I may not be able to get to it for several weeks now). I suspect that it all came over email - but honestly, it was a while ago, and I can't remember for sure. If it was email, there is no record. We had an email server crash last winter and lost most all of our email records.

If you're wondering why we have so many crashes here, it's several reasons: the high traffic due to the print mag, the online store, the publising dept. We move a lot of files all the time, and that does take it's toll. But probably the biggest problem is this forum. So enjoy it. :D

SifuAbel

06-30-2004, 10:46 AM

Oh yeah...............

Wastrel is such a reliable source.............. :rolleyes:

Shaolinlueb

06-30-2004, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by GeneChing
If you're wondering why we have so many crashes here, it's several reasons: the high traffic due to the print mag, the online store, the publising dept. We move a lot of files all the time, and that does take it's toll. But probably the biggest problem is this forum. So enjoy it. :D

think its time for an upgrade gene ;)

http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/pedge_1655mc?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz

:D

Samuel Browning

06-30-2004, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Oh yeah...............

Wastrel is such a reliable source.............. :rolleyes:

I've watched Wastral post on B U L L S H I D O for over a year and his work is quite factually reliable. But have you discovered that such a riot did occur in 1981 as Bannon has claimed? If you want to support David Bannon thats your right but do it with facts rather than by rolling your eyes at some assertion you don't like.

SifuAbel

06-30-2004, 06:53 PM

Actually i don't have an opinion on your matter.

I was just stateing that quoting wastrel is dubious.

Samuel Browning

06-30-2004, 07:02 PM

Because you have a problem with him specifically, or because you know nothing about his reliability and don't accept my claim that he information is reliable?

Second question, if I was to search the New York Times archives for a riot on this date in 1981 re this Korean town and find nothing would you consider that proof? I post under my real name.

Samuel Browning

06-30-2004, 07:36 PM

Here's a discussion of what happened at Kwangju City in 1980 by Lee Jai Eui. his qualifications are as follows.

"Lee Jai Eui is a journalist in Kwangju, South Korea. Currently an economic editor for KwangNam Daily News, and he has been involving Executive Committee of Kwangju Citizens' Solidarity(KCS). He was born in Koksung County, Chun Nam Province, South Korea in 1956. Previously he, being a student, involed Kwangju May Uprising 1980, which is well-known as Kwangju Masscre. He was influenced in his onward life by the involvement. He wrote the book, 'Beyond the death, beyond the darkness'(1985) - the first documentary recording of Kwangju Masscre. "

http://gshin.chonnam.ac.kr/kcs/book/sev.htm

He says the following happened at the first anniversary of the demonstrations in 1981.

"The first attempt to hold a commemorative ceremony of the uprising in Kwangju was prevented by the police, who completely shut down the site. Of the students who took to the streets in protest , 50 were either indicted or prosecuted."

Here is what David Bannon Ph.D (in history) says happened in 1981 in his book "Race Against Evil. "That spring, South Korea was tormented by mass student demonstrations against the repressive government. An emergency decree banned all political activities and dissolved all political parties. For four days from May 19 to 22, nearly 200,000 citizens and students clashed with military forces in Kwangju City. The students took over government offices and seized police stations and armories. On the same dates in 1980, an almost identical demonstration was staged. As if to commemorate the 1980 uprising, the bloody student riots were repeated in Kwangju in 1981. I was there." (pp. 19-20)

"Later that night, on May 22, paratroopers stormed the city and restored order at the cost of hundreds of deaths and thousands of wounded." (p. 24)

How many such sources do you want to see before accepting my point that no one got killed in 1981, and Bannon's version of "history is unreliable".

Samuel Browning

06-30-2004, 07:47 PM

Here is another link to a discussion of events in Kwangju City in 1980 which does not mention any killings in 1981 in this location. The author is John Kie-chiang Oh,
Professor Emeritus, Catholic University of America

http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/opinion/200211/kt2002112117205911340.htm

SifuAbel

06-30-2004, 07:50 PM

again, I don't care. wastrel is a yahoo.

In 80-81, I was too busy ducking out of the way during the miami riots.

And no, The NY times not reporting a korean riot is not proof of its being false. NY times has been in question lately anyway.

Samuel Browning

06-30-2004, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
again, I don't care. wastrel is a yahoo.

In 80-81, I was too busy ducking out of the way during the miami riots.

And no, The NY times not reporting a korean riot is not proof of its being false. NY times has been in question lately anyway.

So you dislike the Wastral but don't have any information to prove him wrong.

And since you don't like the NY Times, (though Jason Blair was not working for them in 1981) I have put up several writings from people who are concerned about commemorating the deaths of demonstrators in Kwangju City in 1980 but either say, only arrests happened in 1981, or do not mention any more deaths in 1981. Though with their dislike of the military government ruling South Korea at the time they would be unlikely to overlook another example of civilians getting killed by this goverment.

Remember Bannon's claim is hundreds died in 1981, to imagine the press missing this event, when they reported the carnage in 1980 is ridiculous.

SifuAbel

06-30-2004, 08:15 PM

oh boy..................

Note KFM mission statement below

Buh-bye

Samuel Browning

06-30-2004, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
oh boy..................

Note KFM mission statement below

Buh-bye

Bye, when you get a real argument, please do share.

YinYangDagger

07-01-2004, 12:15 AM

yeah, a REAL argument, like which chicks are sexier, Chinese or Thai?

Shaolinlueb

07-01-2004, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by YinYangDagger
yeah, a REAL argument, like which chicks are sexier, Chinese or Thai?

that is a good question, but mostly on personal opinion. i haven't seen too many beautiful thai chicks.

YinYangDagger

07-01-2004, 09:09 AM

if you really want to get deep, being beautiful is somewhat different than being sexy :cool:

Shaolinlueb

07-01-2004, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by YinYangDagger
if you really want to get deep, being beautiful is somewhat different than being sexy :cool:

much agreed

Asia

07-01-2004, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by YinYangDagger
yeah, a REAL argument, like which chicks are sexier, Chinese or Thai?

No argument. Chinese chicks are sexier but Thai chicks are fun to be with. (not just that way ya perv.:p )

YinYangDagger

07-01-2004, 10:35 PM

Asia, finally we agree on something :D

GeneChing

07-02-2004, 09:31 AM

...such is the problem with Democracy - everyone has their say and so few have anything really worth saying (that's my 4th of July weekend sarcastic remark ;) )

YinYangDagger

07-02-2004, 09:35 AM

don't be so d@mn cranky, Gene...center yourself, breathe...

:D j/k

GeneChing

07-02-2004, 09:42 AM

in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out in out ....ahh, i do feel better. thanks! :cool:

YinYangDagger

07-02-2004, 10:01 AM

good!

now go do Lien Bu Chuan 108 times while holding 25 pound stone locks....low stances as well :p

Samuel Browning

07-02-2004, 10:04 AM

Just today I received a letter from Iris Chiu who says that she never wrote anything with a Jason Putman and the person referred to in Putman's Western Libertarian Alliance as "Chiu Hse Yu" is not her. Her response is at top, my initial letter is in the middle, and my response to her reply is at the bottom. Notice that when questioned about my credentials I could provide simple proof immediately. Such an approach would save David Bannon much potential trouble.

"Dear Mr Browning
With regard to your queries, I have never co-authored anything with Mr Putman. I am not associated with the persons who wrote the article in the mentioned newsletter. I believe that the person named as "Chiu Hse Yu" whom you are looking for, is not me.
In fact, I find it rather puzzling that you are not listed on any US attorney directories. I also think it would have been appropriate if you had used your organisational email address. I am not inclined to receive any correspondence from less than verifiable sources.
I trust that this reply meets your request.
Yours sincerely
Iris Chiu"

________________________________

From: TappingReeve@aol.com [mailto:TappingReeve@aol.com]
Sent: Mon 6/28/2004 11:23 PM
To: hyc8@leicester.ac.uk
Subject: Dear Professor Chiu, an inquiry from America.

"Dear Professor Chiu:

My name is Samuel Browning and I am an attorney who is writing from Norwich, Connecticut, USA. Recently while looking into some claims by an individual named David Bannon, Ph.D, I discovered an article in a publication distributed by the Western Libertarian Alliance which appeared to be co-authored by you and a Mr. Jason Putman. See:

http://www.westernlibertarian.org/p...20low%20res.pdf

While I believe it lists your name correctly, (Chiu Hse Yu) I am curious if this article is authentic because it refers to you as having a Ph.D when you actually earned a LLB, claims you were a lecturer in Law at the National University of Singapore, when you taught at the Singapore Management University, and asserts you are the author of a book called Punishment as Response to Harm (Singapore University Press, 1997) when you do not list this book as one of your publications on your present website.

To summarize, I am asking, 1) If you actually co-authored the article "Interpol's Secret Army with Mr. Putman, and if you did, 2) can you inform me which portions of this article you authored so I may ask you some more specific questions attempting to verify Mr. Bannon's story concerning the activities of Interpol.

Thank you for your time and attention to this matter.

Samuel P. Browning Esq
671 Scotland Rd
Norwich, Ct 06360 USA"

My response to her reply at the top.

"Dear Iris:

Thank you for your prompt reply. To answer your question about my professional licensing please go to http://www.jud2.state.ct.us/Civil_Inquiry/GetAtty.asp
This is part of the Connecticut Judicial branch's official website. If you type in my Juris Number of #417779 or my full name Samuel Pearce Browning my professional listing will come up. As for attorney directories, you are correct, I am not listed in Martindale Hubbell, but since I practice mostly criminal and family support law, I have found that my clients typically do not mind this omission. If you desire to see further evidence that I am an attorney, please let me know.

Sincerely yours,

Samuel Browning Esq"

* After I wrote Iris back I discovered that the form did not take middle names however my Juris number, or the last name of Browning will call my full name up. I wrote her to notify her of this mistake and to ask another question.

Samuel Browning

07-02-2004, 01:14 PM

Back in the March/April 2002 issue of Kungfu Qigong a bunch of Bannon supporters wrote in to back up his claims. One* was named "Toni G. Brynes, Ph.D, M.D.," and she gave her title as "MHAl Development Officer, North Dublin Mental Health, Ireland." Since Bannon claims both in this article and in his book that Toni was present at the August 30, 2004 Wonderland club raid she is an important witness to this claim. She also is apparently using her real name in this letter, so her existance should be able to be verified. In Bannon's Book, "Race Against Evil", copyright 2003, Toni also has a letter of support for Bannon that he reprints in the book's epilogue on page 305-306. On the latter page she gives her location as "Dublin, Ireland".

On 7-2-04, a date that will live forever on my phone bill, I started to make phone calls in Ireland.
I first called the Medical Council, Lynn House, Portobello Court, Lower Rathmines Road, Dublin 6, Ireland. I talked to Cilla Hickey who I reached at 01 353 1 498 3100 . She told me that there was no M.D. licensed to practice medicine in Ireland under that name. So if she exists, Toni could only be professionally using her Ph.D. I am still working on finding the government agency that licenses Ph.Ds in Psychology.

From an earlier e-mail I had been told by Orla O'Sullivan of Mental Health Ireland that a Toni G. Brynes had never worked for her organization, Orla@mentalhealthireland.ie but she suggested that I contact the Director of Mental Health Services in the Northern Area Health Board which provided mental health services in Northern Dublin. When I talked to Ann, the Director's administrative assistant at 01 353 1 813 1800 she told me (after she asked a co-worker) that they had not heard of a Toni Byrnes. Ann was also unfamilar with an organization called North Dublin Mental Health. So I called ATT international directory assistance, and asked them to look for a business or agency in Dublin or Northern Dublin called North Dublin Mental Heath. They found nothing in Dublin, saying that there was no separate listing for North Dublin. Then they checked for professional listings under the name of Toni Byrnes in Dublin, Nothing. Then they checked for a residental phone number under this name, Nothing Again.

I still need to check to see if anyone named Toni Brynes is licienced as a psychologist in Ireland, but since North Dublin Mental Health apparently does not exist, I'm not holding my breath.

* Her letter is split between pages 34 and 85

David Jamieson

07-02-2004, 08:51 PM

curiouser and curiouser...

through the looking glass we go and what do we see?

a white rabbit! and he seems to be late for an important date! Or so he says.

Off with their heads!

SifuAbel

07-03-2004, 11:42 AM

minutia

M.C. Busman

07-03-2004, 10:13 PM

Greetings Folks,

What we have here is a man who has _confessed_, in print and to at least one reporter, to committing murder on several occasions and in several countries. Whether an official from a law enforcement agency sanctioned these murders (illegally!) or not, I believe the proper jurisdictional authority for these crimes for the time being since the perp, David "Race" Bannon resides in the United States, would be the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

The FBI should review these claims, and if found valid, Mr. Bannon should be turned over to the authorities governing the jurisdictions in which his crimes took place as specified by international treaty. Murder under the color of authority is still murder (even when the victim is a stinkin' child molester), and still a capitol offense in Japan, Florida, and several other of the locals in which Mr. Bannon admits having executed individuals he claims were involved in torture/child pornography incidents. It is probably a foregone conclusion that Mr. Jason Putman should be subpoena'd regarding this matter.

I'm no liberal (nor a conservative), but when people go about willy-nilly stabbing and slashing of their own accord, and claim some sort of questionable legal protection "under color of authority" for doing so, there is a problem. A dangerous man is on the loose. We should be thankful that he has made his confession on paper for all to read, and that justice may now be served. I'm certain that if innocent of wrongdoing (legitimate self defense, say), Mr. Bannon will be vindicated by a jury of his peers. For his actions in Florida, at least.

I would also advise any females who are currently in any sort of relationship with Mr. Bannon to GET OUT for heaven's sake. STAY AWAY from him, as women related to him platonically or otherwise seem to have a high instance of being murdered, and sometimes tortured beforehand, according to his own published writings.

Stay Safe,

M.C. Busman
mc_busman@Bigmailbox.net

Samuel Browning

07-04-2004, 10:07 PM

Dear Mr Browning
I read your message with great concern. This sounds like a case of identity theft to me. There is probably no other Singaporean lecturer in law with the same name that I know . Could you let me know what "CFT" stands for? It is not a familiar abbrieviation to me.
Upon some further investigation, I found that the name "chiu hse yu" has been used again in Amazon.com, under reviews for David Bannon's book. I am not amused. I am certainly not associated with any of the links you provided me or the Amazon.com link.
Sincerely
Iris

________________________________

From: TappingReeve@aol.com [mailto:TappingReeve@aol.com]
Sent: Fri 7/2/2004 7:46 PM
To: hyc8@leicester.ac.uk
Subject: Was your identity stolen?

Dear Iris:

I'm writing back for two reasons, the first is that in my last e-mail I said that to search my name on the Connecticut Judicial website you should enter my full name into the website I provided, I just tried my own instructions, and have learned that you only need to enter my last name "Browning" to achieve this result.

Secondly, I decided after thinking it over, that I should share some unpleasant news. You should read the following thread because there is the unfortunate possibilty that your identity has been borrowed by Mr. Putman. See:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/for...mp;pagenumber=1

"Much of my research was assisted by Professor Chiu Hse Yu of Singapore University, with whom I co-wrote "Interpol's Secret Army" for The Western Libertartian Alliance political journal. Bannon also has an article in the same issue, "The Hidden Slavery: Global Sex Trafficking," which - true to his character - mentions nothing about his own book. The issue in question can be downloaded in entirety (1.9 M) as a PDF file at
http://www.westernlibertarian.org/p...20low%20res.pdf <http://www.westernlibertarian.org/p...20low%20res.pdf>
or got to http://www.westernlibertarian.org/paper and choose "WLA Complete".
Professor Chiu's web site (and contact address) is: http://www.geocities.com/chiuhse_yu "

This last geocities website is no longer in its original form, (it was pretty much erased) but it was an imitation of your Singapore Management University website and featured the same photo that is on http://www.business.smu.edu.sg/law/...chiu_hseyu.html <http://www.business.smu.edu.sg/law/...chiu_hseyu.html>

One of the posters CFT has a series of posts that pointed out some of the similarities and differences between your biographical information and a woman with your same name. I've reviewed his evidence and his characterization of the facts is accurate. He points out that a book attributed to "Chiu Hse Yu Ph.D" in the Western Libertarian Alliance Article was called "Punishment as Response to Harm", Singapore University Press, 1997. which was actually the name of another author's article in the Singapore Journal of Legal Studies, Dec. 2002 (http://law.nus.edu.sg/sjls/sjls2002d.htm) in which you had an article.

I cannot tell you what the statistical chances that there would be two women named Chiu Hse Yu who were both lecturers in law working at two different universities in Singapore at roughly the same time, but my guess is that the odds would be pretty small. Please tell me however if you know of an identically named women working at the National University of Singapore as a lecturer in law at roughly the same time as you were working at Singapore Management University. Otherwise I think you may have been the victim of identity theft.

Sincerely

Samuel Browning

HERE IS THE TEXT OF THE LETTER THAT APPEARED ON AMAZON.COM IN CHIU HSE YU's NAME.

2 of 2 people found the following review helpful:

Tour de force, October 27, 2003
Reviewer: Chiu Hse Yu (see more about me) from Singapore
A work of deep humanity and insight, Race Against Evil is an extraordinary tour de force, though not for the faint-hearted. It is an important but deeply disturbing book that offers a terrifying, unflinching look at an organization of shame and glory: Interpol. Bannon's startlingly humble revelations are bold and chilling as they reveal a simple truth: men and women derive pleasure from officially sanctioned killing. The implications of Bannon's memoir are profound - we are forced to understand the intelligence officer as human rather than monster, victim and abuser. Intensely arresting and thought-provoking.

Samuel Browning

07-04-2004, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
minutia

All conclusions are based on a collection of smaller facts. If Toni G. Brynes, M.D. Ph.D does not exist, this would be a substantial falsehood in Bannon's account because she is the only named eyewitness he mentions re the "Wonderland Club" Raid. You keep complaining, I'll keep investigating.

David Jamieson

07-05-2004, 08:25 AM

samuel-

is bannon the same guy who runs the k.a.p website?

I was a little curious about this. k.a.p stands for "kink aware professionals" and apparently offers services to people with kinks in how to further flech out their kink i.e need a dentist to give you vampire teeth, you can find one through them, and as well, and even more contradictory to the stories of bannon is that k.a.p also offers setup and management of pornographic websites.

This is like burning it at both ends in my opinion.

I mean, is the guy against these things, or for them?

anyway, just wondering if you can confirm that this is the same bannon here or is it just a coincidence?

cheers

CFT

07-05-2004, 09:08 AM

So, the Geocities website for Chiu Hse Yu has the original content removed, and now Jason Putman's clippings page has removed traces of a "connection" to Chiu Hse Yu. Unless someone has saved a copy of the page, we have no evidence

However, the Western Libertarian Alliance article still exists on the WLA website. It would be interesting to send an email to the site owner(s) to see what their take on the matter is; although my guess is that they won't be too bothered.

But a short missive to Jason Putman to get his views on the matter would be highly interesting. I would say his position is untenable. He claims in his article that he has verified David Bannon's account, with the help of his co-author. Yet we have the co-author denying all knowledge of the article.

I think that David Bannon and Jason Putman have been trying to prove their credibility by providing a wealth of academic and professional links, but slowly these links are proving false. With the debunking of each link, we can safely conclude that much if not all of David Bannon's account is simply the stuff of dreams and fantasy.

BTW, has anyone met Jason Putman, or spoken to him?

Samuel Browning

07-05-2004, 11:41 AM

We do have evidence but its based on eyewitness testimony, and not a screen capture. So its inferior in quality, but I would be willing to say under oath that the picture of the woman on the geocities website was the same as the picture on Chiu Hse Yu's official Singapore Management University website, and I don't make such a statement lightly. I believe you witnessed the same.

CFT

07-06-2004, 03:56 AM

You're quite right Samuel.

I'm sure it's no coincidence that these webpages were changed as these points were made on this forum and the Bullshido forum.

I'm now not even sure that Jason Putman is even a real person, let alone a journalist. Searching for his name in Google returned 9 pages; the relevant results were all to do with his article in the KFM e-zine, and references by other websites.

There are no other news articles by Jason Putman. No hits for publishers of his new book that he promote on his website. How soon before that website disappears too?

Samuel Browning

07-06-2004, 06:02 PM

Then will someone from this board "capture it" I am definitely a computer idiot. :)

marnen

07-08-2004, 11:37 AM

First of all, Samuel, congratulations on your research; you're doing a wonderful job exposing David Bannon. I've been following this story with great interest as it unfolds on Bullshido. I just thought I'd comment on a few minor issues.

***

I notice that one of Bannon's suspicious support letters came from someone, presumably Korean, named Kim Seungho. This is interesting because Kim Sung Ho was the name of a Korean character in the film St. Elmo's Fire (the guy who played him didn't look or act Korean, but the dialogue makes it clear that he is Korean).

Coupled with the observation others have made that Race Bannon is the name of a cartoon character...has this guy been picking names for his sock-puppets from film and comix?

***

Note: this next point is long and off-topic. You might want to skip to the next ***.

Still with me? OK...

Originally posted by Kung Lek
samuel-

is bannon the same guy who runs the k.a.p website?

That was my first thought when I heard about David Race Bannon, but I kind of doubt it (the KAP (http://www.bannon.com/kap) guy is Race Bannon). Given the cartoon connection mentioned above, I think it more likely that they both hit on similar pen names.

Also, David has a Charlotte, NC, mailing address, whereas Race seems to be in the San Francisco, CA, area.

FWIW, Race Bannon is a writer on BDSM and sexuality with a magazine column and at least one well-known how-to book to his credit.

I was a little curious about this. k.a.p stands for "kink aware professionals" and apparently offers services to people with kinks in how to further flech out their kink i.e need a dentist to give you vampire teeth, you can find one through them,

From what I know of KAP, this is something of a mischaracterization. KAP does not appear to offer services, but simply provides listings of professionals (medical, legal, technical) who choose to represent themselves as "kink-friendly".

The example you give suggests to me that you haven't really looked at the listings. While KAP claims to accept dental listings, it in fact contains none that I can find. Even if it did, I doubt very much that "vampire teeth" would be on their list of services. (If there is a listing advertising this that I missed, give me a reference and I'll look.) Certainly the MDs listed there appear to offer reputable medical services, but with an understanding of BDSM-related needs that some doctors might not have.

and as well, and even more contradictory to the stories of bannon is that k.a.p also offers setup and management of pornographic websites.

How is this contradictory to David Bannon's stories? Even if the two were the same person, it is quite possible to deplore child pornography while seeing nothing wrong with pornography involving consenting adults.

In fact, those are exactly the views I myself hold. I have considered listing my Web-design business on KAP, and I'd happily design porn sites if I were asked to. But if any kids were involved, I wouldn't touch the project.

[...]
anyway, just wondering if you can confirm that this is the same bannon here or is it just a coincidence?

cheers

One can't be sure, but it's probably a coincidence.

***

Originally posted by Samuel Browning
Then will someone from this board "capture it" I am definitely a computer idiot. :)

Samuel, as I said before, I'm really impressed with all the work you're doing, but I'm getting a little tired of your claims that you're a "computer idiot" (nothing personal -- just a pet peeve of mine). Obviously you can e-mail and post, so I gather that you have a good foundation in how to use the darn thing. As for the rest...well, that's what reading documentation and books is for, isn't it? :) Like anything, it's really not that hard to learn more if you go about it logically.

As far as screen capturing goes, both Windows and Mac OS have that feature built into the operating system (you push a key and it saves the screen image to a file). For more info, look in the help files for whichever operating system you're using. If that fails, e-mail me privately and I'll provide what help I can.

Keep up the good work!
Best,

marnen

07-08-2004, 12:26 PM

I neglected to mention in my last post that the Wayback Machine (http://web.archive.org) may be of use in recovering the downed websites.

David Jamieson

07-08-2004, 01:24 PM

alright marmen, perhaps i should have said"provides listings of professionals who provide services to people who are looking for those services in context to their personal kink.

in regards to pornography sites, I think that perhaps you are being a little naive.

A great deal is not know of how or where pornography site acquire the material they publish on the web. For all you know, those people may look it, but in fact not be of age. As well, tehy may also not be consenting.

It is not unheard of for instance that prostitutes can fall in debt for drugs for instance and in effect be forced to perform sexual acts to pay those debts. The same could be of people who are administered the so called "date rape" drugs suchs as rohypnol and then used to make pronography.

While I'm sure there are some pornographers out there who do legitmately deal their wears with all the guidelines of teh laws adhered to. It is just as likely that more nefarious deeds are occuring as well.

anyway, I sited the dentists as an example and not as a fact. I did say "i.e". Perhaps I should have said "hypothetically"?

Anyway, coincidence? Maybe, But i am just wondering and I do find it contradictory to be offering access to pornography sites while on the other hand racing against the so called evil that they are in some cases part and parcel of.

regards

marnen

07-08-2004, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by Kung Lek
alright marmen,

I wonder about someone who can't bother to look at the spelling of the name of the person he's replying to.

perhaps i should have said"provides listings of professionals who provide services to people who are looking for those services in context to their personal kink.

Yeah, that sounds like a more accurate characterization as far as I've been able to tell.

in regards to pornography sites, I think that perhaps you are being a little naive.

A great deal is not know of how or where pornography site acquire the material they publish on the web. For all you know, those people may look it, but in fact not be of age. As well, tehy may also not be consenting.

That's true, of course. In fact, if someone *did* hire me to design a porn site, I think I would have them sign some sort of statement that all images were legally obtained. I'd do this both for legal and moral reasons.

And if I found out that the statement was false, you bet I'd drop the site and notify the appropriate authorities.

In fact, I believe there are laws in the US that require just such a statement.

It is not unheard of for instance that prostitutes can fall in debt for drugs for instance and in effect be forced to perform sexual acts to pay those debts.

I'm not sure that's necessarily nonconsensual. It would depend a great deal on the circumstances.

Whether it is or not, however, doesn't affect the present argument.

The same could be of people who are administered the so called "date rape" drugs suchs as rohypnol and then used to make pronography.

From the little I know of Rohypnol and similar, this is unlikely. Someone drugged with one of these drugs would probably not be in any condition to model for a photo session.

While I'm sure there are some pornographers out there who do legitmately deal their wears with all the guidelines of teh laws adhered to. It is just as likely that more nefarious deeds are occuring as well.

Sure it is. But that's true in any industry. I don't think pornography has a special claim on this -- the issue seems to be something of a red herring.

anyway, I sited the dentists as an example and not as a fact. I did say "i.e". Perhaps I should have said "hypothetically"?

Yes, you should have, or perhaps you should have omitted it altogether. Your example was a poor one, as it was informed by inadequate understanding of the material. Thus, it was no example at all, merely a gross distortion of the sort that we'd scream about if Putman or Bannon did it.

BTW, "i.e." means "that is". "For example" is "e.g.".

Anyway, coincidence? Maybe, But i am just wondering and I do find it contradictory to be offering access to pornography sites while on the other hand racing against the so called evil that they are in some cases part and parcel of.

And thereby falls your argument -- that "in some cases". Consider: Enron was bad, but does that mean all energy companies are bad? Of course not. Does that mean that (e.g.) fighting child porn while working for Enron is contradictory? Again of course not.

The situation is similar here. Legit porn isn't much more closely related to child porn than energy trading is. Too many people have a reflexive reaction to the mere mention of *any* pornography, a reaction which I believe is unjustified.

Best,

SifuAbel

07-08-2004, 02:05 PM

"Are we there yet?"

David Jamieson

07-08-2004, 03:17 PM

Marnen-

no spell checker = oh well.

anyway, one doesn't necessarily "model" for pornography and in fact there are cases where people are out and out raped.

Not to mention snuff films etc etc.

I am not lumping all porn together at all, but what I am saying is that you simply don't know and all the contractual obligations in the world aren't gonna make a lick of difference if your site is carrying links to sites that fall outside of the jurisdiction of the land you live in.

anyway, I don't see how my example was bad. I think it's legit to make the statement that I thought that the two ends were contradictory to each other especially when bannon promotes himself as someone who "kills" people who prey upon others, which in the case of pornography is sadly quite often the case.

Anyway. My question was is this the same Bannon and so far that hasn't been definitively answered.

Abel- you be quiet back there or so help me! Play your gameboy or something, or a game of I spy with your sister and stop pulling her hair!

SifuAbel

07-08-2004, 03:44 PM

What do drugs, pornography, international intrigue and identity theft, have do with us here and Martial arts?

Can someone please tell me why I should care?

Why is this going on and on and on. I long for the simple life of flame wars and "oh yeah?!?!?!s" and petty squabbles, whose biceps are bigger, taste great-less filling, which asian chicks you like better, whats the pupose of X technique .

Come on people. :rolleyes:

David Jamieson

07-08-2004, 03:55 PM

Blame KFM, they published the dude we are going on about.

SifuAbel

07-08-2004, 06:06 PM

Bad , Bad, KFM, bad.... (rubbing nose in newspaper)

No potty on the persian. Bad.

Samuel Browning

07-08-2004, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
What do drugs, pornography, international intrigue and identity theft, have do with us here and Martial arts?

Can someone please tell me why I should care?

Why is this going on and on and on. I long for the simple life of flame wars and "oh yeah?!?!?!s" and petty squabbles, whose biceps are bigger, taste great-less filling, which asian chicks you like better, whats the pupose of X technique .

Come on people. :rolleyes:

Ah Sifu Abel, it goes on, and on, because one cannot rush richness.

Seriously, the guy is selling his book to martial artists through this forum. (See Putman's article) so its relevant, and I do care about asian chicks, did I not bring this website to the attention of Iris Yu?

Samuel Browning

07-08-2004, 06:51 PM

Here is my correspondance and replies to my letters from the Psychological Society of Ireland. I've been trying to track down Toni G. Brynes Ph.D and M.D. who claims that she was there when Bannon lead a Wonderland Club raid and later wrote a letter of support to Kungfu Qigong (Letter is on pages 34 and 85 of the March/April 2002 edition of this magazine.) I've established that she is not licensed to practice medicine in Ireland, now I wanted to see if she had voluntarily registered with the one organization in Ireland that compiles a list of Psychology Ph.D treaters. She is not listed, this does not mean that she does not exist because registration is voluntary, it does however make her existance LESS likely. I did rearrange the posts to provide them in chronological order. Enjoy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: TappingReeve@aol.com [mailto:TappingReeve@aol.com]
Posted At: 07 July 2004 06:18
Posted To: Info
Conversation: Looking for a Toni Brynes
Subject: Looking for a Toni Brynes

Name: Samuel Browning Esq
Email: TappingReeve@aol.com
Phone: [SB edited it out]

Subject: Looking for a Toni Brynes

MESSAGE BEGINS

To who it may concern:

I am conducting a background check and am looking to confirm the existance of a Toni G. Brynes Ph.D. She is a psychologist who is, or was, employed as a "MHAl Development Officer" for an organization called North Dublin Mental Health in Ireland.

My questions are as follows.

1) Do you have any record of this individual belonging to your organization?

2) Have you ever heard of a North Dublin Mental Health? International Directory Assistance could not locate them in Dublin which is where I understand North Dublin is located.

3) I understand that Psychologists are not licensed in Ireland, and register voluntarily with your organization.

Please tell me if my understanding is correct, and what percentage of Psychologists (those with Ph.Ds in Psychcology who practice in Ireland register with your organization.

Thank you for your assistance in this matter.

Samuel Pearce Browning Esq.

MESSAGE ENDS

THEIR FIRST RESPONSE

Dear Samuel,

We do not have a member by the name of Toni G Byrnes on our database. It is not, however, compulsory to register with us.
Unfortunately, we have no way of collating data regarding psychologists who are non-members and therefore cannot give you a percentage.
I have attached the membership guidelines of our association which should answer any queries you have regarding this.

Regards
Caitríona

Caitríona Ní Mhurchú
Office Assistant
The Psychological Society of Ireland
CX House
2a Corn Exchange Place
Poolbeg Street
Dublin 2

-----Original Message-----
From: TappingReeve@aol.com [mailto:TappingReeve@aol.com]
Sent: 07 July 2004 19:02
To: Caitriona NiMhurchu
Subject: Re: Looking for a Toni Brynes

Hi Caitriona:

Thank you very much for your prompt reply. I am writing back because you said that there was no Toni G. Byrnes in your database when the last name of the person I was interested in, is spelled Brynes. Could you please check to make sure that there is no one in your records by this slightly different last name?

Once again thank you,

Samuel Browning Esq

THEIR SECOND REPLY

MESSAGE FROM PSI WEB SITE

Dear Samuel,

Apologies for that slip. There is no Brynes in our database either I'm afraid

Regards
Caitríona

Caitríona Ní Mhurchú
Office Assistant
The Psychological Society of Ireland
CX House
2a Corn Exchange Place
Poolbeg Street
Dublin 2

BAI HE

07-08-2004, 06:59 PM

Two words "Frank Dux".

BAI HE

07-08-2004, 07:06 PM

BTW- Asia, If you ever dis Mean AT Work again? I will
fly out to where you are and sink my teeth so far into your femur,
you'll forget every martial art you ever thought you knew.
Please desist.

Best,
MAW Liberation Front commander,
P. Bai He. Hieneken.

"It's a mistake......

rubthebuddha

07-08-2004, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Bad , Bad, KFM, bad.... (rubbing nose in newspaper)

No potty on the persian. Bad. ok, abel, regardless of our previous discussion, that was just fuggin funny. :D

Asia

07-09-2004, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by BAI HE
BTW- Asia, If you ever dis Mean AT Work again? I will
fly out to where you are and sink my teeth so far into your femur,
you'll forget every martial art you ever thought you knew.
Please desist.

Best,
MAW Liberation Front commander,
P. Bai He. Hieneken.

"It's a mistake......

*looks at 80s music collection*

*notices Bai He mispelled MEN AT WORK*

*Hurls VEGAMITE SANDWICH with deadly accuracy at Bai He*

Samuel Browning

07-15-2004, 01:57 PM

During my arguments with the libertarians, one of them pointed out an error in the investigation. Take a look at the following letter in Dutch which was received from the gendarmarie confirming that they had not heard of David Bannon.

"-----Original Message-----
From: VCLP-CPPL [mailto:info@police.be]
Sent: donderdag 27 mei 2004 14:30
To:
Subject: Re: Info instructeur

Geachte,

Na wat rondvraag gedaan te hebben kan ik tot op heden zeggen dat Dhr. Bannon David niet gekend is door onze diensten.
Indien je meer informatie wil hebben of wanneer je met specifieke vragen zit rond het thema gevechtsporten kan ik u
doorverwijzen naar de Sectie Bijzondere Opleidingen - Geweldbeheersing op het nummer 02 642 71 90 of 02 642 71 93.

Met virendelijke groet,

Alen Marc
Adj. Secr.
Vaste Commissie van de Lokale Politie"

Yes, they reversed Bannon's first and last names and probably checked for him under his first name of David. My apologies to everyone for not catching this sooner. So Lazy Tiger has agreed to recontact them, and hopefully we can clear up this point. When we hear back the new letter will be posted.

CFT

07-21-2004, 06:09 AM

I should have noticed this earlier. The website that Jason Putman gives for his "co-author" Chiu Hse Yu is:

http://www.geocities.com/chiuhse_yu/

Whoever set up the user account on Geocities has fallen for the classic Western assumption that the last name is the family name of the Chinese person. Many people do write their names in the Western format: Name(s), Family Name; but many (particularly those from mainland China) still use the traditional convention of Family Name, Name(s).

So in fact Chiu Hse Yu's family name is Chiu, NOT Yu.

Looking at it again, the Geocities account could be Chiu Hse-Yu, with the underscore replacing the hyphen.I've just got the gut feeling that it is in the format of name_surname format.

Maybe I'm just reading too much into things.

marnen

07-21-2004, 07:57 AM

I had noticed that too, but I tend to think the underscore replaces the hyphen. After all, Bannon -- or his sock-puppet Putman -- seems to know that Chiu is the family name, judging from the way she's referred to, so if they set up the fake Geocities account (and who else would have?), I don't know why they would have got that wrong.

Indeed, Bannon had better know. I've been trying to confirm the extensive list of publications he has on his website, and it seems that however far off the trolley he's now gone, he is knowledgeable about Korean (and Japanese?) history. I don't see how it would be possible for him not to know about the family name going first.

Best,
Marnen Laibow-Koser
marnen@marnen.org

David Jamieson

07-21-2004, 08:43 AM

I know several Chinese folks who do not follow the format of surname first and given names last.

Especially once they live in a westernized country.

I don't think it's that big a deal.

However, I still regard Bannon as highly questionable regarding whether or not he is truthful about the stuff in question.

I am currently of the opinion he is not. And he hasn't really done anything to prove otherwise, or to really prove anything at all.

GeneChing

07-21-2004, 09:38 AM

I have not heard from either Mr. Bannon or Mr. Putman since the initial stages of this investigation. I will let you know if I do, however I will reserve the right to keep the exact nature of any contact confidential at the request of either party. That's a right I reserve for all our authors and despite the concerns raised here, I must honor it - innocent until proven guilty, you know.

David Jamieson

07-21-2004, 09:46 AM

In all fairness, the onus has shifted to putman and bannon simply because the "evidence" so far, indicates there is some chicanery at hand.

If we had a jury of 12 right now to say yay or nay, I get the feeling the nay side would be unanimous... you know, if we were forced to, i dunno, use a poll? :p

It's not hot enough in here...

Samuel Browning

07-30-2004, 10:38 PM

Subj: SEOUL NATIONAL UNIVERSITY
Date: 7/29/04 10:43:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: vctm061@snu.ac.kr
To: tappingreeve@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)

Dear Samuel Pearce Browning:

This is Seoul National University and I am Kim Minnah in Office of Registration.

We cannot find any information about Mr. David Bannon, and I did not say what Mr. Putman quoted. Mr. David Bannon did not obtain Ph. D. degree from our school.

If you have more questions, do not hesitate to contact us.

Sincerely yours,

Minn Ah, Kim

Registrar

The Division of Registrar

Seoul National University

E-mail: vctm061@snu.ac.kr

Tel : +82(2)880-5036

Fax : +82(2)879-2933

Personally I think this letter speaks for itself, I'd love to hear Mr. Bannon's explaination for why the supposed granting institution does not know he earned a Ph.D there.

cerebus

07-30-2004, 10:44 PM

D'oh! :D (Dam mit, no one was supposed to actually CHECK on that! :p ).

Vash

08-15-2004, 04:30 PM

v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v. v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.

ttt!

v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v. v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.v.

GeneChing

08-17-2004, 11:05 AM

I haven't heard from either Mr. Bannon or Mr. Putnam since I last said I haven't heard from them. :(

Samuel Browning

08-17-2004, 11:13 AM

I haven't posted in a while because I'm busy chasing down leads. Right now I'm trying to confirm or deny Putman's claim that he has a book coming out in 2005 with either Putnam, Penguin, or Random house. Of course if he would just say who his editor is, and what their professional address is, I could confirm his book's existance very easily.

Goldenmane

08-17-2004, 09:40 PM

So let's clarify something.. thus far nothing he has said has turned out to be proven, no?

Samuel Browning

08-17-2004, 09:49 PM

Nothing remotely controversal, has so far panned out. I'm not questioning there is a man named David Bannon, he has a daughter, lives in Charlotte, North Carolina, was formally a Mormon and has at least visited Korea. But ever since his claimed Ph.D in History didn't pan out, I'm unsure whether even parts of his basic description of his own life are accurate. As for the Interpol Assassin stuff, I haven't found a shread of evidence to support his claims other then the supposed testimony of people who might not even exist.

Samuel Browning

01-27-2005, 06:55 PM

Ah, as Hannibal from the A team used to say, "I love it when a plan comes together." Several months after hiring a college student to do some research for moi in Marseille, I just received his very interesting affidavit.

On page 280 through page 282 of his book "Race against Evil: The Secret Missions of the Interpol Agent Who Tracked the World's Most Sinister Criminals-A Real Life Drama", (New Horizon Press, Far Hills, N.J. 2003) David "Race" Bannon claims his fiancee, Siddle Rimbaud, a French DST agent who was killed in a gun battle with North Korean agents, was buried in a small cemetary in La Treille, France. Bannon even produced a photograph of her monument in the insert of his book. I had this picture scanned and sent it to my investigator.

Some relevent quotes. "At a small cemetery I carried orchids up a wandering knoll." . . . "I knelt and cleaned away the dried arrangements, setting the orchids I'd bought on Sid's grave. It was close to the anniversary of her death. She had died on October 21". (p. 282) "I used every penny I owned to pay for Sid's funeral, a plot and statue of an angel looking over her in a graveyard just outside Marseilles." (p. 132)

Here is the text of the affidavit sent to me by Pierre-Olivier Mathe, my investigator. I will be happy to have a copy of this document sent to anyone who cares to provide me with their real name and address. This offer even extends to "Race" as long as he first answers a few select questions.

"My name is Pierre-Oliver Mathe, and my address is 2 Rue Bueno Carriero, 131100.Aix-En-Providence (France). I am 18 years old and I believe in the obligations of an oath. I make the following statement of my own free will and swear to its accuracy.

1) On November 5, 2004 I went to Marseille, and La Treille, France to discover if Sidelle Rimbaud in La Treille.

2) While in Marseille I first went to St. Pierre Cemetery to access the archives since La Treille is a very small village just outside Marseille. There is only one cemetery in La Treille, and no one stationed there to take care of it. I called the Marseille townhall to inquire about the cemetery in La Treille and they indicated its location.

2) While at St. Pierre, I first tried to locate Sidelle Rimbaud using a date of death of October 21, 1981. She is not registered in a Marseille Cemetery on that date. Then I looked in the archives for every year from 1980 to 1985 in both the St. Pierre and La Treille Cemeteries and her burial is not registered in either location. I then tried to find her tomb or the burial plot but no David Bannon was registered as owning any such burial plot. A staff member at St. Pierre also showed me the list of everyone who was buried in La Treille and the name Sidelle Rimbaud was not on this list.

4) Then took a bus ride to La Treille, where David Bannon claims his former fiancee Sidelle Rimbaud is buried. I had a copy of the picture you provided me from Mr. Bannon's book which he claims is a picture of Sidelle Rimbaud's gravestone or monument. There are only about fifty graves in this cemetary and there is no monument which matches the picture you provided me. The La Treille cemetery is named Cimetiere de la Treille and is locared at the following street address: Route de la Treille.

Pierre-Oliver Mathe"

*The original document was sworn and notarized*

David Jamieson

01-27-2005, 07:50 PM

great!

Can we do something about Grisham and Clancy now? :p

Oso

01-27-2005, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by Kung Lek
great!

Can we do something about Grisham and Clancy now? :p

fuuunneeeeee....

Samuel Browning

01-27-2005, 09:30 PM

The difference between Bannon and Clancy is that Clancy declares his fictional writing as such. Bannon did his interviews and published his book claiming the events he described had actually happened.

David Jamieson

01-27-2005, 09:32 PM

Ease up now. I like Rainbow 6 as much as the next guy.

but Bannon is obviously a fraud even without the time and effort you've invested in making it clear. :p

a big beer for sam!

GeneChing

01-28-2005, 10:23 AM

I've heard nothing from either Putman or Bannon in a long time, only once I think, since you've started your investigation, but that was months ago.

Samuel Browning

01-28-2005, 03:34 PM

I'm still working the case Gene, if you talk to Race, please ask him which year Sidelle actually died and why DST says they never heard of her.

Samuel Browning

02-05-2005, 06:15 PM

I had a free day today, so I decided to do some more research on Mr. Bannon's claims. On pages 19-20 of "Race against Evil: The Secret Missions of the Interpol Agent Who Tracked the World's Most Sinister Criminals-A Real Life Drama", (New Horizon Press, Far Hills, N.J. 2003). David 'Race' Bannon writes the following:

"That spring, South Korea was tormented by mass student demonstrations against the repressive government. An emegency decree banned all political activities and disolved all political parties. For four days from May 19 to 22, nearly 200,000 citizens and students clashed with military forces in Kwangju City. The students took over government offices and seized police stations and armories. On the same dates in 1980, an almost identical demonstration was staged. As if to commemorate the 1980 uprising, the bloody student riots were repeated in Kwangju in 1981. I was there."

Later on page 24, Bannon writes:

"Later that night, on May 22, paratroopers stormed the city and restored order at the cost of hundreds of deaths and thousands of wounded . . . Though not as terrible as the 1980 tragedy that saw the slaughter of nearly 2,500 students--and which is commemorated each year in South Korea--that bloody spring was violent enough."

According to Bannon, his presence at this riot in 1981 changed his life in the following way. He was stabbed by a Korean male who he then had to kill with his bare hands. (p. 23) After going to the hospital to be treated, Bannon came to the attention of Jacques Defferre of Interpol, who eventually recruited him into this organization. (pp. 25-28) Thus Bannon was then able to sleep with a French DST Agent, kill lots of chester the molesters, and eventually write a book about his exploits.

There is one "small" problem with this story. There does not appear to have been a riot in Kwangju in 1981 making Bannon's account historically impossible. The evidence for this assertion is the following.

1) The New York Times was closely following the violance in Kwangju in 1980 and wrote multiple articles about resistance to the government, and resistance in this city in particular, in late May, 1980. See:

a) James P. Sterba, "Seoul Vows New Restrictions Won't Delay Democracy", New York Times, Monday, May 19, 1980, p. A3. "In the Southern city of Kwangju, however, about 5,000 students defied the new Government decrees and battled riot policemen and troops in the streets for several hours before a a 9 P.M. curfew was imposed. Scores of students and policemen were reported injuried."

b) James P. Sterba, "New Repression in South Korea: Growing Clampdown By General Curbing Democratic Reform" New York Times, Tuesday May 20, 1980, p. A3. and "5 Believed Dead in Clashes in Southern Korean City" p. A3. (author not named) This second article says "tens of thousands of anti-government demonstrators reportedly clashed today in the southwestern city of Kwangju with riot policemen and armed paratroops. At least five bodies were seen lying in the streets, dozens of people were wounded and many students were arrested according to reports from witnesses."

c) Henry Scott Stokes, "Cabinet Resigns In South Korea as Riots Grow: More Deaths Reported in Huge Kwangju Protest", New York Times, Wednesday, May 21, 1980, pp. A1 and A8. "Reports from Kwangju, a stronghold of Kim Dae Jung, the arrested opposition leader, said that a television and radio station was burned as 30,000 demonstrators, mainly students and workers, marched in groups and some that battled a division-strength army unit that was rushed to the city when troubles began there. [The Associated Press reported from Seoul that the troops in Kwangju opened fire Wednesday on demonstrators who were trying to drive commandeered buses and armored personnel carroers at them, killing at least three, according to witnesses. The report said that as many as 200,000 people surged through the streets of Kwangju in the fourth straight day of protest against martial law. In rioting Tuesday, the agency said, up to 11 persons were killed, 13 buildings were wrecked and 50 vehicles burned.]"

d) Shim Jae Hoon, "Protesters Control South Korean City; At Least 32 Killed", New York Times, Thursday May 22, 1980, A1, A13, "Kwangju, South Korea, May 21 -- Tens of thousands of demonstrators, many waiving seized rifles, iron bars, axes, pitchforks and even light machine guns, took control of this southwestern city today, the fourth day of anti-Government rioting that has cost the lives of at least 32 people." A1.

e) Shim Jae Hoon, "Unsuccessful Truce Talks Held in South Korean City", New York Times, Friday, May 23, 1980, p. A8. "With armed rebellion continuing in the Southern part of South Korea, representatives of the anti-government demonstrators holding the city of Kwangju met with the local commander today in an unsuccessful attempt to agree upon a truce."

f) "30,000 in South Korea Continuing Kwangju Protests Despite Warning", New York Times, Sunday, May 25, 1980, p. 1, 6. The NYT reprinted an article by United Press International on their front page.

g) Henry Kamm, "Seoul Seems to Plan A Move On Kwangju: Foreigners Advised to Leave City", New York Times, Monday, May 26, 1980, A6.

h) Henry Kamm, "South Korea Troops Recapture Kwangju In Predawn Strike: Military Says 2 Were Killed in Light Resistance and 200 Arrested -- 4 Soldiers Are Injured", New York Times, Tuesday, May 27, 1980, A1, A16 [SB Note: these figures are very low].

i) Henry Scott Stokes, "When Troops Finally Came, Kwangju Revolt Became a Rout", New York Times, Wednesday, May 28, 1980, A1, A6. "Local people say 261 people died during the uprising and 2,000 were injured." A6.

j) Henry Scott Stokes, "Korean Military Hunting Leaders of City's Revolt: Army Sets Up Roadblocks in the Area of Kwangju", New York Times, Thursday, May 29, 1980, A14.

The point of citing these articles is as follows. One does not have a multiple day, total city riot with hundreds of fatalities in an industrial nation, without some mention in the international press.

2) However when I reviewed the New York Times from May 18, 1981 to May 31, 1981 I only found two articles that mentioned Kwangju. These were:

a) In a section entitled "Around the World" New York Times, Friday, May 22, 1981 the NYT reprinted the following headline and two paragraphs. "30 Priests in South Korea End 3-Day Hunger Strike. Seoul, South Korea, May 21 (UPI) -- Thirty Roman Catholic priests ended a three day hunger strike today after the authorities promised to accept their demands for the release of 23 people jailed for involvement in last year's violent Kwangju uprising, a Catholic official says." In the second paragraph there was no mention of any violent protest, or even mass gathering occuring in Kwangju on the anniversary of the 1980 riots.

b) On Wednesday, May 27, 1981 the New York Times printed an article by Mike Tharp entitled "A Year After Korean Uprising, Chun's Grip is Firm". (A2) The article said "Last week there were demonstrations at several universities, but both witnesses and the police described them as minor." The article did not mention any demonstrations or riots occuring in Kwangju, (they happened in Seoul) but did mention the hunger strike by Roman Catholic priests in this city.

So the question becomes, did the New York Times somehow miss a riot in Kwangju which lasted from May 18, to May 22, 1981 and in which to quote Bannon, "paratroopers stormed the city and restored order at the cost of hundreds of deaths and thousands of wounded". This impossibly unlikely because:

3) A review of all editions of the Wall Street Journal and Christian Science Monitor printed between May 18, 1981 and May 31, 1981 do not mention ANY civil disturbance in South Korea. and:

4) A review of the Times (of London) from May 18, 1981 to May 31, 1981 reveals only two articles concerning demonstrations in South Korea.

a) Jacqueline Reditt, "Women Protesters Occupy US centre in S. Korea", The Times, Saturday, May 23, 1981, p. 7. "Nine South Korean women staged a 22 hour sit-in at the American cultural centre in the south western provincial capital of Kwangju yesterday." The story concluded with the information that the South Korean police had removed the women without injury from the cultural center and took them to their homes.

b) Jacqueline Reditt, "Police Move Into Seoul University", The Times, Saturday, May 29, 1981, p. 9. In this report Reditt writes that Riot police broke up a student demonstration at Seoul National University for the second straight day on May 28, 1981. They used "pepper fog chemicals" and one student "screaming slogans denouncing President Chun plunged to his death from the fifth floor of the library building." There was not mention in this article of any more disturbances in Kwangju or that the police directly killed any students in Seoul.

So not only the American but also a highly respected British Newspaper fails to mention this 1981 riot in Kwangju in which Bannon claims there were "hundreds of deaths". Since Jacqueline Reditt was filing reports from Seoul at this time, and was aware of even a small nine women sit-in in Kwangju, it seems impossible that she, and the Times of London would miss a four day replay of the 1980 riots in Kwangju.
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