Advanced Art?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


What makes an art advanced?


Is it simplicity? Most elbow in south fist arts are simple.


Is it because its modern? Most southern arts are not that old.


Is it because its soft? There are numerous soft styles.


Is it the footwork? All styles have footwork that help one evade and follow etc.


What can it be?


The reason I bring this up is simple. Wing Chun was regarded as a so-called Advanced art in its day. The so-called counter all arts art. Guys like Leung Jan and others were very famous for destroying all challengers yet does that mean its Advanced?


When reading information about the greats of our time and the past we can see certain similarities in their writing. Guys like Wang Xiang Zhai, Ueshiba, Miyamoto Musashi, etc. etc. all had certain things they each stated in their writing that even tho they came from different disciplines they found the same truth.

Some common words;


The Way, Nature or Natural, The Void or Emptiness, etc..


The methods or art they preserved didn't matter. The end product was the same. Since Wing Chun was one of those so-called Advanced Arts would it not (or should it not) have those common links to those other so-called Advanced Arts? We know that Silence or using Quiet to overcome the Active was indeed something Leung Jan told his pupils in Koo Lo but how many of us have achieved this? With that in mind we can assume that Leung Jan had the same approach or base idea as the other greats like Wang Xiang Zhai so it makes me think the art was one of those Advanced Natural Methods.

So, in todays Wing Chun world who (or which so-called Master/Grandmaster) have achieved the same type of power those other Advanced artists achieved or are we just using the basic simple soft boxing to over come our opponents? Which Master can bounce out their opponent and send them flying? We know it can be done as there is numerous stories and historical fight information preserved on the other masters of the Advanced way. I will attach some info. on Wang Xiang Zhai fights.


So, why am I bringing this up? Hendrik mentioned that their is only one Advanced art and when reading about those greats I think he is spot on. Hendrik also mentioned that the Wing Chun engine may be lost. Well, from reading the stories or the power of thsoe greats I may have to say he seems right again as nobody has reached that level today.


What can we do to bring that advanced level back to our Advanced art?


Just some thoughts!


Regards,

[Jim Roselando]

Anecdotes Of Dachengquan Founder Wang Xiangzhai by Wang Xuanjie DACHENGQUAN is a set of barehanded exercises for health-keeping and combat. It was developed by my instructor Wang Xiangzhai in Beijing in the 1940s. The following anecdotes about him will help you learn something more about Wang and his dachengquan.When Wang Xiangzhai created dachengquan half a century ago, wushu which was popular among the folk was not much to the original and had become a show piece rather than a fitness exercise and combat skill. To preserve the quintessence of traditional Chinese wushu, there was every need for all martial artists to pay attention to the prevailing deviation and make concerted efforts for a renewal. His determined resolution strengthened as he saw the Japanese invaders beating their victims of occupation for fun in Beijing. "We are a great nation," he said indignantly. "How can we put up with such insults?" Then, while absorbing strong points of various schools of wushu, he created a style of barehanded exercises-dachengquan. To spread the newly- emerging routine far and wide, Wang recruited a large number of youngsters and gave them lessons personally. His aim was very clear and that was to help boost the morale of the Chinese people and counter foreign pugilism. He issued a statement in a local newspaper and declared that he was ready to take on any rivals including those coming from foreign countries. Wang's remark angered Kenichi Sawai, a Japanese martial artist then living in Beijing. Sawai was good at karate, swordplay and judo. In his eyes, Chinese wushu was only something like gymnastics, having little value in actual fights. So, one day, he went to call at Wang's in the hope of showing off his prowess. When he saw Wang Xiangzhai, he found that the Chinese shadow boxer, a man of middle stature clad in long gown, looked very gentle and suave. He was very happy to meet with such a weakling, thinking that he would win without fail. After introducing himself and explaining why he had come, he produced a newspaper which carried Wang's statement and tossed it on a table. "You are ready to have a dual fight, aren't you?" asked the Japanese karate practitioner, his face wreathed in contemptuous smiles. "Yes, I am," retorted sneeringly my instructor. "I always mean what I have said. I would never refuse anyone who wants to compete with me. Foreign martial artists are especially welcome." Hearing that, Sawai went out of the drawing room and stood in the courtyard waiting for a duel. Without any hesitation, Wang came out with hands placed behind his back. Directing his strength to both hands through concentration, Sawai assumed a horse-riding stance and launched a sudden attack on Wang's face with hands. Seeing this, my instructor, his left hand remaining still, extended his right forearm to parry Sawai's hands. Then, with a slight exertion of strength, Wang threw the Japanese muscle man 10 feet away. Before realizing what had happened, Sawai was already Lying on the ground on his back. Not admitting defeat, Sawai wanted to have a swordplay contest with Wang because he was so skilled at it that he could cut an apple on the head of a man into two without hurting the head. Considering that Sawai should get an idea of what Chinese swordplay was, Wang agreed to have another contest. With a sword held overhead in his hands, Sawai delivered a hard blow at Wang's head. Wang stepped a bit to the right and wielded his sword to block the opposing sword. As the two swords clanked, Sawai was also thrown several feet away and flattened with his palms benumbed. (According to the son of Sawai, they did not fight with swords but with sticks.) Irreconciled, Sawai rose to his feet and pounced upon Wang with his sword towards the throat. This skill is very famous in Japanese swordplay, with which one can catch his rival off guard. However, Wang was so good at Chinese swordplay that it seemed as if he did not make use of eyes but sense only in a fight. Wang turned his body to the right slightly, leaving Sawai's attack wide of the mark. In another instant, Wang pressed his sword against his opponent's. Sawai tried hard to draw his sword back, only to no avail, since it was "pasted" fast to Wang's at the guard of the hilt. When Wang mustered up his strength, Sawai was flung out and slammed against a nearby door which caved in as a result. Later on, Sawai engaged Wang in a qinna-something like judo- contest. By then, he was already a 5 - dan judoka in Japan. However, he could never get hold of Wang by the sleeve or the front in competition, no matter how hard he tried. Instead, he was grasped by Wang as soon as they came to grips. Then came an Italian boxer who had made a name for himself in West Europe. His surname was James. When he was on a tour in Beijing, he learned that Wang Xiangzhai, founder of dachengquan, was looking for a rival, so he was also eager to have a try believing that it was a good chance for him to earn fame in China. After exchanging a few words at Wang's, they came out into the courtyard and began to warm up for competition. James, with shorts only on, put on a pair of gloves and gave several straight punches to a thick tree and leaves fluttered down from the swaying branches. When James took off his boxing gloves and changed into a pair of cotton-yarn ones and assumed a boxer's classic stance, the onlookers on the scene held their breath. The alien contestant appeared so powerful, so muscular and so agile, and he dwarfed Wang by a head. Could Wang be his match? Looking as calm as ever before, Wang was all geared for the contest, with his right hand in front of the chest. James was an experienced boxer endowed with long and powerful arms and highly proficient in the art. With his right hand in front and left hand at his lower jaw, he suddenly delivered a straight left to Wang's face. As James came up with his fist, Wang raised his right forearm for a parry and in quick succession made a powerful push that shot James up and grounded him six feet off. Without knowing what it was all about, James rose to his feet and composed himself for another bout. This time, he changed tactics. He first made an arm feint and then gave his chest a right uppercut. Turning slightly to the left, Wang put his right wrist gently on the right elbow of James, who felt benumbed all over at once, and collapsed on the ground after tottering for a moment. Now, he realized that he was not as good at fighting skills as Wang, which should account for his previous defeats. However, he thought he could outplay his rival in the third bout; he believed that he was much more powerful than Wang. To show this Italian boxer what Chinese boxing was really like, Wang asked James to punch his chest and ribs. A hail of hard blows followed and Wang was as firm as a rock. Getting desperate, James gathered all his strength and landed a heavy punch on Wang's abdomen with his right hand. Wang's abdomen heaved a bit and James fell down onto the ground with his right wrist sprained. Later, a Mongolian wrestler, who had been living in the suburbs of Beijing, came to compete with Wang Xiangzhai. This story sounds quite incredible, but it has been on the lips of martial artists to date. Named Bator, this lad was a son of a former official in charge of military affairs in the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911). Bator began to learn xingyiquan (form-and-will shadow boxing) from his father at the age of 14 and took a fancy to archery and horsemanship four years later. When he was 20 years old, he started to practice wrestling under the guidance of a former imperial court trainer. After five or six years of training, he made rapid progress and became quite versed in wrestling. He was strong enough that he could subdue a galloping horse. One day on his way home, a shying horse ran up to him, pursued by a yelling crowd. When the horse arrived in front of him, this Mongolian wrestler first moved aside, then, to the great surprise of the pursuers, jumped forth to catch the horse by the neck and upset it. When he heard that Wang Xiangzhai was willing to have contests with other wushu devotees, Bator went into the city to rise to the challenge. At the start of the contest in Wang's courtyard, the two stood a few meters apart, face to face. Bator moved forward, trying to throw Wang down with a unique skill he had mastered in wrestling training. As they were about to come into contact, a small insect buzzed into Wang's left ear. Disturbed as he was, Wang continued with his firm steps forward while picking his ear with his left little finger. At the sight of this, Bator jumped out of the way and, bowing to Wang with his hands folded in front, said: "You are so good at martial arts. I am no match for you." The two exchanged a smile out of their tacit understanding for each other and the contest thus ended. The onlookers were all in a maze. One of them asked Bator, "How come you acknowledged defeat? You should have a try for it." "As an old saying goes, a master knows what a man he is fighting against the moment he takes the opponent on. He was so sedate and self- assured at this juncture that he could afford to pick his ear. If he was not an adept in the art, how could he have so much confidence in winning the contest?" In the year he developed dachengquan, Wang Xiangzhai kept having contests with dozens of martial artists, Chinese and foreign. They all came in confidence, but went in failure. Since then, the name of Wang Xiangzhai has spread far and wide and dachengquan become a beautiful blossom in the flower garden of Chinese wushu. (Translated by Chen Shengtao)

[reneritchie]

practice

[PaulH]

Jim,

Correct me if I'm wrong but these arts seem to die with the founder in each of these stories. Perhaps the Wing Chun race has degenerated into a new underworld species where they can't stand that glorious light of old. =)

[Ernie]

the reality is the stories are just that , stories
old school sales pitches or blown out of proportion hand me down fables

in all the fighting and studies of combat in modern time , around the world there would be tons of people with these skills
not just a few guys in china or Japan ,

with no visual proof beyond , this or that person says

we are adults yet we seem to wish to believe in fairy tales
if you want to advance wing chun , then find a medium in which to pressure test it and then things will blossom
obviously all the chi sau and forms and talking is not doing much these days now is it

and then there are the people that talk about this or that advance skill but when you ask them to produce proof , it becomes well I can't do it but I heard this guy can

more myth

and for all the rooting and structure and jing talk
does it really apply in spontaneous aggressive attack or only in a demo with a willing partner hmmmmmmm.

seems to me like people don't want to face themselves and there short comings so they pretend through imaginary lives of the past

fighting is a ugly barbaric clumsy painful endeavor
yet people want to pretend and paint a picture by the numbers , with out ever getting there hands dirty

personally I don't get it but what ever keeps you from going postal

[KenWingJitsu]

rene and Ernie speak the truth.

LOL!!!!!!

[PaulH]

Jim,

All things are possible and I don't doubt for a moment that there were some people who achieved extraordinaire Kung Fu in the past. As such I find unusual stories like yours fascinating and stimulating. What we need today is a taste of the real apple. That is why I'm pitching my wagon to San Jose soon. Hopefully I won't sleep for a hundred years. =)

[Jim Roselando]

Hey guys!


Thanks for the replies! I figured I was going to get hammered for these thoughts but you guys went easy on me! hehehe


First! I was thinking about this stuff while on vacation and reading about the old masters. Lots of stuff started to run thru my head and I figured I would bounce it off you guys.

Now! While I agree that some of this stuff seems far fetched (especially from watching Ueishiba demonstrate) there happen to be a good number of people who are still alive who witnessed Wang's fights and ability as well as Ueshiba's. During their time they were the best of the best and had an unuasual ability where as most others tended to be skilled at what most of us do. So, my thoughts were; What makes these so-called advanced arts just that? They all had something in common and their headmasters all spoke in similar ways. Plus, they all cultivated a different sort of whole body power from any spot. I then said to myself; We have all the same ideas as those arts in our art but are we not cultivating the whole enchillada?


So, while you may seem to think I am looking for this super-natural power etc I am not. Fighting is ugly and the only way to get better is to fight more and a variety of people. So, I agree with Ernie but what makes any art more advanced than any other? These arts do tend to have trouble duplicating as the founders are just that and tend to have tapped into something others have not. What is the common link that they all used to tap into that level? There has to be something?


Now, I do feel lucky that Wing Chun is sooooo simple and effective that we have a much more practical vehicle for usage and transmission hence the reason we are able to produce numerous top fighters but could there be more than just simple boxing?


Just thinking out loud again!


:D

[Ernie]

what makes any art more advanced than any other?

training methods ,
separate most arts , but in the end it's individual attributes
look at basket ball for ex. they have all the same shots and body mechanics , yet even at pro level were they work hard and get the best coaching and training out there some individuals just shine , Jordan for ex.
he does all the same stuff but has better attributes

now I just don't believe nor do I car about wing chun past and old masters ,
when they say best of the best who were they fighting and who's to say they just didn't all suck but the '' masters '' just sucked a little less
in every other athletic or combative event there has been great progress due to science , nutrition , and better training methods ,
except for traditional martial arts they are stagnate and just talk about what they used to be .

it's like people want to keep recreating the model t when they have a Ferrari in there face

jim[Wing Chun is sooooo simple and effective that we have a much more practical vehicle for usage and transmission hence the reason we are able to produce numerous top fighters ]

numerous great fighters ? were ? in respect to what ?

numerous great talkers would be more like it
:p

sure there are a few great individuals but as a whole they majority is only great in there own mind or the confines of the training bubble

numerous great excuses of why they don't get involved in any real test of skill would be another way to say it

and my favorite '' kings of lip sau ''

so when we get back to the future , revamping training mehtods , breaking a sweat , getting in fight shape , and pitting our skills with top level fighters then you might find out if an art can be advanced or is it just advanced b.s.

[kj]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hendrik also mentioned that the Wing Chun engine may be lost. Well, from reading the stories or the power of thsoe greats I may have to say he seems right again as nobody has reached that level today.

We need to better understand the underlying assumptions here. What is the criteria for evaluating those former "greats"? If based on stories, how much of the claims are valid and accurate, and how much is "spin" or perceptions of the story tellers? How do you know that nobody has reached that (yet-to-be-defined) level today?

Per my earlier response to Hendrik's assertion, the Wing Chun engine may be challenging to find, develop, or gain consensus on, but IMHO, not lost.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Phenix]

Advance is about the capabilities of utilize the most of the human resources a human has.

It is an othogonal issues to technics....tan, swing, ground fighting..... faking or real figthing.


capabilities of utilize as much as what a human has needed a methodology in mind/body/breathing to be cultivate or train. This has no contradiction to technics and different ways of application or style. But makes different technics more effective.

So, even the streching of Oyamas Kyokushing Idea, the no move is better then small move idea of Wang Xiang Zai,... etc.. ALL is a matter of training/seraching/streaching toward a both more effective and effecient process or result. Notice, it is a process of handling the human capability better. it has say nothing about the tactic or style but not exclude the tactic or styles....



People often mis-understood the search or working to strech of human's potential with different dimentions to its ultimate as a magic or super nature. That is because one has tied one's mind to view to box to define by oneself that fighting has to be in a certain way one view. Plane never get off ground if the view of only bird can fly is the only truth. Jet fly faster then the flipping wings....

The search of a more effective, efficient way of using one's body/brething/mind is not denying about fighting but facing fighting as a reality to find different alternatives. that is a part of evolotion. similar to how flipping wings lead to invention jumbo jet .
It doesnt make sense to stop the alternative search and deny all the attainment of the past martial artists and deny all the existance by the name of fighting. The search and streching as Wang or Mas Oyama did has no blocking any kind of fighting method but will improve the fighting on the other hand.



As an example of what has done in the past.

in the ancient time, a tan sau is said to be a water shape hand with one other reason. That is when one does a tan sau, one has to feel an invisible water stream flowing from body toward the tip of the fingers. the fingers has to be closed so that that water stream focus forward. But there is an end of this flow since that is high tie and low tie of a flow. that is the time the tan execution completed---- low tie. so there is monitoring inward, outward, self and external influence --- in this case the resistance of air.

SLT was view as no arm or hand but replace the arm and hand with an invincible water colon which flow with different angels flows of water out from the body and directed with mind. and ofcorse there are detail analysis of mind to be able to address what is the state of mind one desire to select and what state of mind one doesnt desire to get into.




fighting with flying limbs even thought constantly spoken about rooting or structure will be just a competing for speed ; for the body was never really being use. this is because most of those who says rooting is similar to tie the horse one rides on a pole and start fighting on top of the horse after the horse is stablely secured or ---- rigidly dead. there is a different with those who fight on top of the running horse.

So, the advance art is about fighting on top of the running horse. and it needs to have technology, methodology, and methods.

So, what is a tied horse? stop or force breathing. tunnel vision or dull mind or emotion reactive mind .., constant tense up body parts.

See, for most of us, doing SLT today is not about that invisible water colon flowing with different spiral or votex of flow.
Doing SLT today is about tied the "horse". one jam one's elbow. one dull one's mind calling that focus. one force the tan to be this high this far. how is this become advance art? can polishing brick become glass mirror?

We even have so much fear to let go the tied 'horse" and using the name of "figthing" to in justified all others possibilities. However, when it comes to discussing fighting. then the MMA .. abc. xyz... all brought up.


on one way one advocate of WCK still doing SLT and has to do it MY SIFU GM X way GM Y way or Mr Z way. or WCK according to my sifu who is the best of WCK...... on and on.
on the other way, when discussion figthing then one advocate MMA, just do it, fighting is for fighting......

But while searching into the different view of SLT and/or energy paradigm where others has accomplished in the past. That was voodoo.... that was not true, the ancestors ....
Isnt it that hypocrate?



Sure one can always argue that to fly one must needs a pair of flipping wings and dont you ever dare to fantasy of man flying.
one will never see a bird with jet enginee isnt it? and the 747 jumbo jet doesnt has a flipping wings so it cannot fly.:D

you like the flipping wings stuffs. that is fine with me. I like both flipping wings, jet propelling, and the super conductor anti-gravitation. and the list goes on. :D

Those all just a different way of using energy. hahahaha.
Why fighting has to be in one way? doing ten thousand wings flipping will not fly faster then a Jet plane. so keep up your flipping wings flying.


The evolution of WCK is multi-dimentional. and the investigation or search on a better more effective, efficient way or using or manupulating energy is not an optioin but a must.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by kj



Per my earlier response to Hendrik's assertion, the Wing Chun engine may be challenging to find, develop, or gain consensus on, but IMHO, not lost.



Sure, Hendrik cannot make the sun lost. if you dont blind fold yourself. :D

"Take off your sun glasses"..... that is the song Hendrik always sing. Praise the spring right? how can one praise the spring without see the sun?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Thanks for all the input!


Hendrik has hit the nail on the head. I think we all have an excellent vehicle but there is a power of the mind coordinated with the body & breath that these guys harnissed to an total unified level within their body.

***

Hendrik stated:

Advance is about the capabilities of utilize the most of the human resources a human has.

So, even the streching of Oyamas Kyokushing Idea, the no move is better then small move idea of Wang Xiang Zai,... etc.. ALL is a matter of training/seraching/streaching toward a both more effective and effecient process or result. Notice, it is a process of handling the human capability better. it has say nothing about the tactic or style but not exclude the tactic or styles....

***

Read below on Wang's comments regarding Chinese MA!


The boxing arts of our nation are in a chaotic state, thus the people cannot know what course to take. Summed up, they have abandoned the quintessence and kept only the scum, nothing more! The people should be very ashamed of this. So, we should clean up and carry forward the old knowledge! Except for us, who else is there to do it?

***

So, for me, its not about a looking for the model t or the original etc.. That stuff is funny. Especially since I do a modern platform of WC. Granted it was developed by one of the greats but we Koo Lo guys still refer to it as a modified version by Leung Jan Jongsi as he did his thing to it and are more than happy to acknowledge that but perhaps their is a linkage within our bodies that is not on par with those old greats. They obviously harnissed the maximum whole body power/unity of mind and body.


Just some more thoughts.

[Tom Kagan]

practice

Well, I could practice diligently, 6 hours a day for years at learning how to fly by flapping my arms (BongSao optional). But, I still wouldn't be any closer to getting off the ground. ;)

Perfect practice

:)

[Ernie]

tom
[Perfect]
perfect in respect to what ?

[FSY]

From what I've seen so far, Wing Chun is an advanced "art" because it is based on science.

Of course folks could rationalize that ALL martial arts are based on science since they all deal with the movement of the human body. However, even though some other arts are built upon similar scientific concepts, such as of not fighting force with force and striking vital targets, it seems that our Wing Chun ancestors incorporated much more science than the movers and shakers of less advanced systems.

The most ironic thing it seems is that the more advanced a system is, the more it is based on "simple" concepts instead of complex and complicated ones. The more one thinks about this, however, the more it makes sense. The respected leaders in many other fields often speak of this natural simplicity found in the higher (more advanced) levels of their respective disciplines. For example, Einstein said, "things should be as simple as possible." He died while working on an "advanced" theory where the laws of the universe could be expressed in one simple formula (Unified Field Theory).

As a last example, it's common knowledge that instead of teaching unnatural and complex systems, some of the fighting experts/instructors in the U.S. Armed Services teach systems which are very much based on the natural and simple reflex-response approach that Wing Chun is based on.

[canglong]

originally posted by hendrik
Those all just a different way of using energy. hahahaha.
Why fighting has to be in one way? doing ten thousand wings flipping will not fly faster then a Jet plane. so keep up your flipping wings flying.
Because Wing chun is about MOST efficient not one of many possible ways but "the way".

[anerlich]

As a last example, it's common knowledge that instead of teaching unnatural and complex systems, some of the fighting experts/instructors in the U.S. Armed Services teach systems which are very much based on the natural and simple reflex-response approach that Wing Chun is based on.

Correct, the most recent being the Army H2H combatives manual which is based in large part on Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-25.150/toc.htm

link doesn't seem to work for me on this crap network, but you could try the google cache.

[reneritchie]

WCK is scientific in the same way cooking or playing pool is scientific. It follows certain laws that can give insight into optimization, but is also so dependant on initial conditions as to make the exploration of the science of superficial benefit at most.

As a chef is as more artist as chemist, a pool player more artist than physics major, a trained fighter is more artist than kenetician. Proof of this is that, while they all possess some knowledge that could be termed 'scientific', Thomas Keller is not a Nobel chemist, Minnesota Fats was never offered the Lucasian Professorship, and be it Yip Man or Rickson Gracie, martial arts of surpassing skill developed that skill through training, not lab work in vector formulae.

So what then makes an art advanced?

1. Minimazation of dependance on attributes (flexibility, strength, speed, limb length, etc. are bonuses, not requirements).

2. Systematic, progressive, and integrated methodology. (Each element builds and complements the next, how you do one thing is how you do most/all things.)

3. Simplicity (no excess, be it physical or theoretical).

If pretty much most people can use the tools of an art, those tools are part of an easily transportable core, that core is trained in a step-by-step manner to build real skill, and no time is wasted on fancy but ultimately useless movements or words, then you have an advanced martial art.

OPMMV

[Phenix]

Originally posted by canglong
Because Wing chun is about MOST efficient not one of many possible ways but "the way".

"Most " and "the way" is the begining of Tunnel vision and non Zen.

Why? WXZ even he was one of the best. He still mention there are 2 people above him.

Zen is about spacial or roomy and flex or alive. Without Spacial and Roomy and flex Zen is dead.

So, for advance art, when the mind is not spacial, alive, and roomy to be able to grow and embrace more. The mind is sick.
With a sick mind how breathing, body, and everything can be right?

A non roomy and non spacial mind will cause a stuffy body and a shallow fast breathing. Sick mind will produce sick body.
So, why one wants to go this path? the tunnel vision path to the dead end and trap oneself?
Cant be advance art this way isnt it?

Ultimate is about unlimited spacial, unlimited embracement, and unlimited liveliness, and unlimited possibilities.

Walk into the a vast cathedal in europa and see how spocial it is; then walk out and look at the sky and ocean.

there the spacial and advace shown. who is" the most , the way?" that is a tunnel vision.

[kj]

Very good, René.
- kj

[PaulH]

WC is truly advanced if it can make you smile. =)

SMILE (Though Your Heart Is Breaking)
Words by John Turner and Geoffrey Parsons
Music by Charlie Chaplin for his play "Modern Times" 1936

Smile, though your heart is aching
Smile, even though it's breaking
When there are clouds in the sky
You'll get by...
If you smile
With your fear and sorrow
Smile and maybe tomorrow
You'll find that life is still worthwhile
If you just...
Light up your face with gladness
Hide every trace of sadness
Although a tear may be ever so near
That's the time you must keep on trying
Smile, what's the use of crying
You'll find that life is still worthwhile
If you just...
Smile, though your heart is aching
Smile, even though it's breaking
When there are clouds in the sky
You'll get by...
If you smile
Through your fear and sorrow
Smile and maybe tomorrow
You'll find that life is still worthwhile
If you just smile...
That's the time you must keep on trying
Smile, what's the use of crying
You'll find that life is still worthwhile
If you just smile

[Phenix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
So what then makes an art advanced?

1. Minimazation of dependance on attributes (flexibility, strength, speed, limb length, etc. are bonuses, not requirements).

2. Systematic, progressive, and integrated methodology. (Each element builds and complements the next, how you do one thing is how you do most/all things.)

3. Simplicity (no excess, be it physical or theoretical).

If pretty much most people can use the tools of an art, those tools are part of an easily transportable core, that core is trained in a step-by-step manner to build real skill, and no time is wasted on fancy but ultimately useless movements or words, then you have an advanced martial art.

OPMMV

Hi RR,

That is the description of a human in 2004 with scientific education background. :D

Nature might not be Minimazation of dependance but be able to use every components without wasting.



Nature might not be Systematic, progressive, and integrated but a chaos

Nature might not simplicity but a complex multidimentional operation.

There, we still see WCK as we likes it. Not as what nature support it. There man and nature seperated and man invent technology trying to force nature to go man's way. But, too bad all man can only live not more then 100 year old.

and the story of man desire to control but end up tie up oneself continous.

some Wing Chun Kuen kuit said " let it be nature and it will grow" and some advocate "Tien De Yan" heaven, human, earth.

But, who really being one with the nature or tien de yan way----Heaven, Human, earth becomce one?

Or more the way toward, " heaven and earth become Human." this is THE WAY! which is not the Heaven, human, earth become one at all but the opposite! :D



Sum means -heart. But what is heart? the thoughts? no wonder we all argue because we all have different thoughts.
So what is heart? hahahhaa. what is the heart of heaven and earth? --- nature :D No wonder we all argue hahahaha using a wrong heart!


Jung means - middle, center, balance. NON of the components was not fully used to its best for Jung. Jung saying not thing about Minimazation, Systematic, Simplicity. :D


In the eyes of nature what is an advance art? or the nature cares only about Jung Sum if it can speak? What is advance art? ask the heaven. I have asked count dracula he told me he doesnt know. I have asked Van Helsing. He told me the reason his heart beat didnt go irregular when seing Dracula because he has no misconception about Dracula or the situation--- isnt that Jung? Centering? :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

PaulH:

Tony Bennett's version of "Smile" (recorded many years ago) is one of the most beautiful songs I've ever heard!

[Gangsterfist]

WCK, is a great martial art. It has won my sifu several fights over in china. It has been combat tested and proven effective in the military. Ho Kam Ming taught it to Military personel in Macau click here (http://www.hokamming.com/images/HKMCertificateR.JPG) . If you pick up a Hong Kong Police training book, a lot of it looks just like wing chun, w/ a heavy emphasis on chin na.

WSL had many matches and won. However, lets not use this a blanket or as proof that WCK is an extremely deadly art. A lot of those past accounts and people cannot be proven at all. It is a huge old debate that gets no where. Its really like beating a dead horse. I find it extremely hard to believe that there is some lost ancient secret technique that we are missing which makes these legendary (yes they are legends) fighters so bad a$$ back in the day. The problem is not the system, not some secret technique, its the practitioners. Yes, there I said it - its the people who practice wing chun.

How many of them are in good shape? I for one will admit currently I am a bit out of shape. However, I am back to training hard and working out again and in the next 6 months or so I should be in better shape than I was before. I am not perfect, and I got lazy over the winter and got out of shape. I am still in shape as far as my physical abilities, I just know there is room for improvement.

Being in shape does not have everything to do with being a good martial artist but it sure does help. The fact that most wing chun practitioners are lazy and do not work out, and get a false idea of comfort that their kung fu is so good they do not need to be in shape.

There are no lost technologies, no ancient secret manuevers, no lost arch of the covenant, and no super secret lost training methods. If there were any of these such things and they were lost, then I am sure there are plenty of reasons for them being lost. As humans, we evolve and we tend to stray one way or another. There are tons of things we do not do anymore that we did 100s of years ago. Its because it was counter-productive and in the end not good for us. I used to hear stories of how old wing chun practitioners used to crack walnuts between their knees when doing the YJKYM. Which is totally bad for your knees long term wise. So, therefore no one does that nowadays. If something was lost from long ago, it was probably meant to be lost or has many reasons its not practiced anymore.

[Ultimatewingchun]

What makes an art advanced?

The effort that individual people put into it to make it something special.

Everything else is theory.

[Phenix]

Hi Pual this is for you.

--------------------------------------


Do You Know Where You're Going To (Theme
Do you know where you're going to?
Do you like the things that life is showing you?
Where are you going to?
Do you know?
Do you get what you're hoping for?
When you look behind you there's no open door
What are you hoping for?
Do you know?

Once we were standing still in time
Chasing the fantasies that filled our minds
You knew how I loved you, but my spirit was free
Laughing at the questions that you once asked of me

Do you know where you're going to?
Do you like the things that life is showing you?
Where are you going to?
Do you know?

Now looking back at all we've had
We let so many dreams just slip through our hands
Why must we wait so long before we see
How sad the answers to those questions can be?

Do you know where you're going to?
Do you like the things that life is showing you?
Where are you going to?
Do you know?
Do you get what you're hoping for?
When you look behind you there's no open door
What are you hoping for?
Do you know?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
What makes an art advanced?

The effort that individual people put into it to make it something special.

Everything else is theory.

Include the ---

"The effort that individual people put into it to make it something special." ---

is theory. :D

[Ernie]

what makes it advanced

when your the guy left standing [ look at pic ]
everything else is just lip sevice

[PaulH]

Full of the patho of life, Hendrik. Thanks. =)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Ernie
what makes it advanced

when your the guy left standing [ look at pic ]
everything else is just lip sevice


Sure including your's :D

look at the web. http://www.angelfire.com/anime/macrossrpgstats/OMG1.html

your guy can stand at strike from these. even if you have 10 guys, not parr at all! :D

with all the missile forget about your MMA or ABC or XYZ :D

[PaulH]

Victor,

You have good taste! =)

[Ernie]

hendrik
Sure including your's

yep
but at least i can admit and move on

un like some who flap there lips more then humming bird wings :D

reality in the end the man with the better attributes will win

[Ultimatewingchun]

In the final analysis...it's always the man that wins.
Not the system.
So it IS about attributes...starting with Strength Of Will.
Followed by everything else.

[Nick Forrer]

Hes a Bull. I'm the Matador.

In WCK we strive to be the matador, not the bull. That is what makes WCK a superior martial art and that is what made Ali a superior martial artist.

[Gangsterfist]

My first sifu always told me, even if its bad wing chun, its still a decent fighting art.

Agreed, no matter what style you practice hard work is what pays off the most.

[Ernie]

nick
In WCK we strive to be the matador, not the bull. That is what makes WCK a superior martial art and that is what made Ali a superior martial artist.


ali followed his own path , had he confined himself to the mechanical aspects of the '' perfect'' jab or how heavy wieghts were supposed to fight and use there footwork he would have never been what he was supposed to be all along :D


victor
[[In the final analysis...it's always the man that wins.
Not the system.
So it IS about attributes...starting with Strength Of Will.
Followed by everything else.]]

you get my point , to much time looking out ward not enough time looking and listening to the obvious

people blinded by details stances and how toes point , just silly
what is advanced for one is remedial for another
labels are funny things [ advanced , the best , superior]
in respect to what , and in respect to who? when and were ?

g fist
[My first sifu always told me, even if its bad wing chun, its still a decent fighting art.]
the same can be said about any art :D

[reneritchie]

Courage, Victor. It's a cliche for a reason :)

[Phenix]

I see lots of ego (me too:D) --- I am number one I am the best fighter I know it all here but not advance WC art. :D

There is no methodolody of advance art of WCK was mention. So how can one know the advance art?




in one way " I am number one in WCK" but when fighting " I know Wrestling... I Know Boxing....."
Hahahahaha

may be knowing wrestling or Boxing and Mua Thai .......is the advance art of WCK? That's how one beat the lower art WCner while sparing isnt it? doing something different outside the stereo type box of WCK. hehehehe



figthing is not an art by default. hahahah :D
for fighting buy a hand launch missile, that is better then Oyama's God hand punch! one doesnt have to train for long long time :D




has any seen the advance art of WCK? I dont know. :D

Most of us just fantasy what is advance art of WCK has to be in our own way. Then in reality, one really believe and learn as much Wrestling, Boxing,..... all and that is advance WCK! :D



Is this post about the Advance art of WCK and Methodology?
Or Mohamat ALI is the ancestor of WCK? :D
I told rene, sure Boxing is the advance art and ancestor of WCK! hahahahaha :D




OK, lets drop all the wild fun.
who has the advance art methodology. Please present and share with us!

[canglong]

originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hendrik mentioned that their is only one Advanced art and when reading about those greats I think he is spot on. Seems Jim is waiting on you and you are just wasting everyones time.

[Nick Forrer]

Yes Hendrick. Hurry up and give us the scientific formula for dominion over time, space and energy. Then we can finally get rid of that pesky ching dynasty once and for all.

[canglong]

Can't get enough of follow the leader Nick. If you're diligent enough once you have dominion over all your senses you won't be in such a hurry and the Ching should be the least of your worries now and then.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
Yes Hendrick. Hurry up and give us the scientific formula for dominion over time, space and energy. Then we can finally get rid of that pesky ching dynasty once and for all.


What do you guys talking about?
I have no idea at all!


You mean why Van Helsing's heart beat doesnt go irregula when he meet Count Dracula?

In Zen's term, that is because Van doesnt have misconception manifest into the physical form or the Rupa skandal. That is the first lesson about Zen. :D

Do your heart beat goes irregular? if so go back to do SLT until no misconception. Heheheheehe

[Phenix]

Originally posted by canglong
Seems Jim is waiting on you and you are just wasting everyones time.


I dont think Jim is waiting for me.
He studies WXZ, Osense.... those are the guys not me forsure. :D

[Jim Roselando]

Hey guys,


No! I am not waiting on Hendrik. Hendrik writes certain thoughts on this board (like everyone) and I took some of his thoughts and started comparing to the older guys info. and writing. Thats when I started thinking out loud and wrote what I wrote.

Yet! Work is killer write now and I have to run!

Sorry for the quick reply and thanks for all the thoughts!!


Regards,

[Tom Kagan]

tom
[Perfect]
perfect in respect to what ?


Touché. :)

Not the noun (PERfect), the verb (perFECT).

Perfect practice, with respect to the system. Flapping one's BongSao about, however diligently in practice, will not show a practitioner how to fly or to deflect. And without such a reference, such actions won't tell a practitioner what they might want to move away from doing.

There is one Ving Tsun KuenKuit which ties everything in the system together and allows it to work cohesively. Not only is it pretty much useless by itself, but, standing alone, this KuenKuit should not rightly be considered from Ving Tsun. It is the "key" to opening the "lock" of Ving Tsun Paai KungFu or any other system, martial or otherwise, that a person wishes to explore:

"If you don't train hard now when you are really young, when you get older you will have nothing."

(Note for the nit-pickers: "Really young" means training age, not chronological age).

But, you know all this already. ;)

[Phenix]

Hi JIm,


Thus, I have heard. ( dont cast my word in stone!)

Yes, there exist an Emei origine fundamental method or Key for SLT. This simple fundamental method will open/make a link/flow from the tip of pinky to the spine to the whole body to the legs. This method differentiate SLT from the Nam Kuen or white Crane of Fujien. This training method is different to TaiJi which emphasis on relax but generally "broad" limb. Shao Lin which emphasis on hand technics. Emei do relaxation but did it in a different way. Those are the characteristics of the 12 Jong ---- Small Detail.

Once this fundamental training of Body/Mind (need sum faat) or basic Kung is know and mastered. The "snake Body" or "the every inch is available to be manage" will be realized and there on, One's SLT will since then transcent.

That is the basic Key of transcending ordinary used of body to detail use of body/mind. as in Taiji, it was said one has to trancest the crude and brute force to the lively force. same stuffs but since SLT is not Taiji, it was done differently and the "lively force" has its uniqueness from the TaiJi.

that is great for body/mind relaxation for both health and body/limb handlling purpose. once this is goes throught the SLT will be no longer the same. it is a kind of attument (sp?) in the old time ---- inner Chamber student's attument.


So, there might be a few keys to turn on the engine of SLT. But has to find this one first.


and VAn Helsing's serach continous. :D

[Ernie]

tom
Perfect practice, with respect to the system. Flapping one's BongSao about, however diligently in practice, will not show a practitioner how to fly or to deflect. And without such a reference, such actions won't tell a practitioner what they might want to move away from doing.


thanks for getting back on that , just one of my little pet pieves
when people use the word perfect , or best , superior stuff like that
I always wonder in relation to what , one on one , same size same weight , 2 on 1 , sand ,snow , mountain side street

I know in the reality of things the best you can hope for is to maintain yourself in the face of the unknown
so the idea's of perfect or best or superior seem very shallow to me like a weak attempt to crystallize a moment in time that may never repeat or come up the same way twice

so better to not be perfect yet adaptable so your mind is free to adjust and flow and not say stuck in trying to achieve perfection in a non perfect environment

just a play on words I guess :D

[sihing]

Interesting that I found this thread, because I have asked my self this question at times too. I do believe that WC is an advanced art. Wing Chun was specifically developed to overcome and dominate all martial arts. For example I believe that Tae Kwon Do is a basic martial art, meaning it has simple movements and combat philosophy, in the end when it comes to TKD it’s who's lucky enough to hit the other first and makes it count that wins. Wing Chun is a little more in-depth than that.

I always tell new students that when we say WC is the most effective martial art in the world we mean this, and using the example of two identical twins with the same genetic gifts, one studies WC the other studies some other martial art. They both study with the same intensity and learn their respect arts to the same skill level. The one that learns WC will win if the two of them engaged in combat, IMHO. Does this mean that every person learning WC will be the deadliest fighter? No, but they will give most everyone a challenge to say the least.

Also, most martial arts require constant practice to stay effective at what they do, WC doesn't. The mind does not know the difference between something imagined in a very vivid way and something actually experienced. It’s like riding a bike or some skill like that. Before I started training in WC, tennis was my thing. From age 12 to 18 I played steady, and could have gone pro if I had the right coaching and such. After discovering WC and putting all my attention there, tennis took a back seat. But 16 yrs later today I can still play a good game of tennis, my back will feel it the next day but the skill is still there.

WC was developed to allow one to overcome another’s physical attributes in martial combat. It’s the smart man's martial art.


James

[yuanfen]

Tom- good approach to the ken kuit.

Hendrik- good distinctions between relaxed taiji and realxed wc
and the emi snake connection.

(sifu) James... the sifu part sounds stuffy!

[anerlich]

Also, most martial arts require constant practice to stay effective at what they do, WC doesn't.

You state this, but then go on to say that visualisation works almost as well as actual practice, citing tennis and cycling as examples. Why does this work for WC, but not work for other MA?

I personally disagree with this premise. WC requires greater precision than many other MA, which obligates more practice. Why do people who stay away for a few months end up getting hammered when they come back? In any case, I have never been and never intend to be in a position where I can find this out for myself, I train consistently.


WC was developed to allow one to overcome another’s physical attributes in martial combat. It’s the smart man's martial art.

Just about every TCMA in the world claims this. The same is said for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, with IMO significant justification.

[yuanfen]

Someone( a sifu?) sez:

Also, most martial arts require constant practice to stay effective at what they do, WC doesn't.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amazingly untrue. If one regularly does not touch hands-
wing chun skills will be gone with the wind.

Joy

[Ultimatewingchun]

Andrew wrote:

"WC requires greater precision than many other MA, which obligates more practice. Why do people who stay away for a few months end up getting hammered when they come back?"

This is correct.

And Joy wrote:

"If one regularly does not touch hands - wing chun skills will be gone with the wind."

Correct again.

Constant practice of SLT/Chi Sao/Sparring/Wooden Dummy, etc. are absolutely essential for a Wing Chun Fighter.

[sihing]

So after the skill is developed, one still has to keep up the intense training to have any chance of success in combat? From what I understand when Yip Man was teaching publicly in the 50's, he wasn't training to much, but still had very effective fighting ability. Once a skill is acheived it is much easier to maintain it than it was to obtain it. I do not stretch nearly as much as I did when I first started training, but I can still do the splits, its a bit tighter but the flexibility is still there. Why is it neccessary to always be in peak form, do you all have more enemies than friends? I have more important things to do at this stage of my training and life than kicking a bag for a hour. If you get great pleasure training all the time than that's great for you, not all of us are the same that way.

James

[yuanfen]

James Roller sez:

From what I understand when Yip Man was teaching publicly in the 50's, he wasn't training to much, but still had very effective fighting ability.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe your understanding is mis-informed. Until he retired- he always kept up with his chi sao. He didnt do chi sao with every tom, **** and harry. He knew people to work out with soon after he hit HK. Was he supposed to leave evidence for every issue in KFO? :-

[yuanfen]

KFO censorship is funny!

[anerlich]

I was not arguing with this:


Once a skill is acheived it is much easier to maintain it than it was to obtain it.

What I took issue with was this:


Also, most martial arts require constant practice to stay effective at what they do, WC doesn't.

Why is WC different from "most martial arts" in this regard? Why does the first statement of yours I quote above apply only to WC and not "most martial arts"?

Sifu Andrew Nerlich

(you're right, Joy, it does come across awfully stuffy and pretentious. Every time someone calls me that I keep looking round to see if my instructor is behind me)

[sihing]

Andrew, if an art requires specific physical attributes like strength, speed or flexibility for its effectiveness, which most martial arts do, then you are going to have to hone these qualities continually. Since WC is a martial art that does not soley rely on physical attributes it only stands to reason that the skill level will not decrease as fast when the training is not as intense, that is once the skill is achieved.

Joy, after reading numerous articles(Inside Kung-fu, Black Belt, back issues included) by various WC masters under the Yip Man
lineage, none of them related the fact that Yip practiced chi-sao with them, also I read that Yip Man reasoned to chi-sao with one of his students would degrade his own skill.

Sifu James

[black and blue]

I may have simply not heard the stories and it may well have happened... but does anyone in the YM line lay claim to having seen YM accept challenge matches?

Yip Ching's book gives reference to a few 'one punch/one kick encounters' but does anyone here have stories of YM engaging against Kung Fu men who were acknowledged experts? I'm thinking about his time in HK - where there were many students and such fights may have been witnessed by a number of people currently around to say so.

Would like to hear them if they exist.

Hearing the whole 'WC is the most effective method of defence' balony is enough to drive an already stupid man like me crazy.

If this were really the case.... the fast majority of people interested in fighting would be studying the art. K1 etc would be positively littered with WC folks.

The arguement is almost as irritating as the posters/advertisements for WC that go on and on about it being used by the Marines, the FBI the this the that.... they don't seem to mention the same is true of JuJitsu, Ninjutsu, etc etc etc.

Mr Roller... if you tell your students they are being taught the most effective martial art in the world...... you are leading them down a rather muddy path.
If you also tell them their skills will remain even if they don't train.... well, errr...

.... that speaks for itself, me thinks.

[Gangsterfist]

FWIW, from what I have been told, Yip Man taught all his students differently. The first generation students he had he taught them just combat stuff. So, they in return would go out and win fights, and the effect of that would be he would gain more students. The second generation he taught the whole art, not just the combat oriented stuff. Then every generation after that the senior students taught class and YM, just watched.

I have also heard he would teach different students different things. However, this is not fact and I am definately no historian its all hear say. Who is to say how true it is or is not. I guess only his actual remaining living students can say that.

I have never heard of any fighting stories of Yip Man, but I did hear there are some wooden dummy movements purposely left out of the form. I heard Yip Man demonstrated it once and it shattered the dummy leg. He thought it was too brutal and left it out. However, again this is what I have been told so I am not saying its 100% true.

[sihing]

As far as actual stories of Yip Man fighting I believe he fought his first student Leung Sheung, when they put Yip up in the Restaurant Union hall. Yip was basically laughing at Leung's technique's he was teaching to his students so a match ensued, as a result the 1st Wing Chun School was born in Hong Kong. GM Cheung also relates a story in the Black Belt series done on him in the 80' called "The William Cheung Story", I believe you can get access to this article in Cheung’s website. Basically two guys came in to where Yip and Cheung were living, Cheung offered to take them on but Yip needed some exercise and took them both on himself. To make the story short, Yip won.

As for myself telling new students that WC is the most effective, I relate to them the twins comparison that I explained earlier in this thread, WC will make anyone the most effective fighter they can be. Let me say that a consistent work ethic is required in the first few years of WC training for this statement to be true, the concepts and tech. have to be understood and learned(when I say learned I mean actual skill achieved). I also believe that teaching the art also makes one a better practitioner, thereby a better fighter. To teach something requires a much more in-depth understanding, especially since people learn in different ways( some learn visually, auditory or Kinetic by feel).

Listen, IMHO, after the body is conditioned by the various drills in the WC system, and will react the WC way, then what is it that almost guarantees success in combat? Strong muscles, good cardiovascular condition, tough hands or timing, technique, perception skills (fast eyes, watching elbows and footwork patterns), control of distance btw opponent & yourself and contact reflexes. I believe the latter attributes are what give WC practitioners the edge. Not to say that strength, speed or endurance is not required at all, but most martial arts are solely based on these last qualities, WC is not.

sihing

[reneritchie]

Leung Sheung wasn't Yip Man's first student. Yip Man taught in Foshan back in the 1940s, before he moved to HK and met Leung Sheung or any of the students in that region.

Lun Gai, one of Yip Man's Foshan students, still teaches in China.

Also, those who pretty much taught almost everyone doing WCK today weren't the images of physical perfection. Many of them were the sons of rich merchant parents who had to do nothing in the way of physical activity (farming, building, carrying, etc.) and whose lifestyle consisted of smoking and alcohol which contributed to ill-health in their elder years--yet from many accounts they had skill that let them, at least for short periods, still apply themselves successfully. And what is common in the stories of their application?

Their ability to control balance and momentum.

Now does that mean someone in great health with great attributes couldn't have developed into a better practitioner? Of course not. That stuff's gravy.

[anerlich]

Andrew, if an art requires specific physical attributes like strength, speed or flexibility for its effectiveness, which most martial arts do, then you are going to have to hone these qualities continually. Since WC is a martial art that does not soley rely on physical attributes it only stands to reason that the skill level will not decrease as fast when the training is not as intense, that is once the skill is achieved.

Man, someone bought the propaganda hook line and sinker.

Assuming for a moment that WC has no reliance on speed strength or flexibility (they aren't essential perhaps, but they sure do help) , you have to rely on other attributes like sensitivity, balance and timing. Skill is a function of the nervous system, not the musculature and other connective tissue. You still can't get away from having to practice regularly, as, say, musicians do, if you want your skill to do more than find its own lowest level. If you aren't improving, you're backsliding. You can only kid yourself otherwise if you never really put yourself to regular testing.

Why is WC different from arts like taiji or BJJ? All rely on technical skill, leverage, and strategy to defeat opponents with superior attributes. And, again, just about every other TCMA will tell you they do the same thing. And they're all only right up to a point; as with everything else physical, a good big man will generally beat a good little man.

[Gangsterfist]

I will say that wing chun mostly relies on structure. However, being strong, tough, flexible, and having endurance definately makes your wing chun even better.

I know that from the last year or so my flexibility has vastly improved. I know that a lot of basic submission holds no longer really work against me because I am more flexible and it just plain does nothing against me. Of course when someone hyper extends me or cranks some of my joints they way they are not designed to go it still hurts.

How many people can touch their toes? In the USA 60% of the population cannot touch their toes (I was told that from a professional trainer not sure how accuracte that statistic is). I can bend over and place my palm on the ground and put my mouth on my knee. This flexibility gives me so many advantages across the board. Hopefully I will be able to do the splits here in 6 months or so. I am getting close now. Its a physical attribute which gives me advantage over someone who is not as flexible as I am.

I do push ups, sit ups, all that jazz (well I am kinda lazy when it comes to cardio) to build strength and endurance. Again, I will have the advantage over someone weaker than I am.

I am not saying I am super strong or way flexible, I am saying these attributes help my wing chun. Ever hear the phrase train full range of motion to develope short burst power? I forgot which WC practitioner said that, but they were right on the money. I practice TKD kicks to get that full range of motion, so when I compact the movement into a wing chun kick its just that much more powerful.

Wing chun is not about being stronger or faster, or tougher. Its about being effecient with structure, its fighting smarter. However, if you are weak and cannot hurt me with your attacks then, well you cannot beat me. Even if wing chun does not rely on such things, it will definately utilize them if you got them.

[sihing]

Yes I do agree that strength and speed and flexibility are all good things to have as a fighter, unfortunately there's always someone stronger, faster and more flexible. The difference in WC is that it does not rely on these attributes as much as say Judo, or Karate. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the average person's untrained attributes like mentioned above are good enough as they are when they start training in WC, they do not have to be enhanced too much when learning WC. Where as is someone was going to learn TKD or Monkey style Kung Fu they have to improve there flexibility in a few areas of their bodies for that art to work effectively. It is a fact that some Martial art system/styles require more strength than others. WC does not require extraordinary flexibility, strength, speed to be effective, that's why it is an advanced art. The round punch is a slower movement than the straight, if you throw the round the same time I throw the straight I will beat you to the punch every time, this is a simple example of WC advanced structure. Structurally WC is a fast system of movement, so therefore one does not have to be a fast mover( like Bruce Lee was, very fast person naturally) to make it work.

Try punching me without moving the elbow. Try kicking or moving towards me without moving the knee. Watching and blocking these things, as well as footwork patterns, will allow you to see what's happening faster than watching someone's chest or eyes or whatever. It been proven that the elbow/knee moves slower than the fist/foot, and has less power at these points, therefore using this information in combat gives the WC fighter a slight edge over the fighter that takes one to give one.

Sophisticated footwork patterns designed to put you in the most advantageous position in relation to your opponent give you another advantage. Although these positions last only a half second to a second, one has to be able to throw many punches per second and generate power from short distances, WC has this ability, and through some effort in the beginning one can easily learn this skill. Also WC's punch is non-telegraphic, therefore the opponent will not know is coming till it's too late.

All of the above are skill attributes more than physical attributes. Learned skills deteriorate much slower than physical attributes, just staying out of the gym for 2 weeks will prove that.

Last example, if myself and another WC man have the exact same skill in the technique and our chi-sao ability is the same, then and only then will speed, or strength be a factor. If he has any of these things or both then I will be defeated. If my skill is higher then I have just equalized his phyical advantage.


sihing

[old jong]

It is a fact that the more attributes= less skill needed and the more skill= less attributes needed with all the variants possible.
Try to avoid ;less skill+less attributes!...;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yes...Wing Chun provides a structural speed and precision that many (if not most) fighting arts don't have - and coupled with the proper positioning, tactile reflexes, and visuals (ie. - watching elbows and knees)...it can be devastating.

But let's not kid ourselves about the importance of attributes, staying in condition, strength, power, cardio...and constant practice (ie. - chi sao, sparring, etc.)

Let's put it this way:

One wing chun fighter is 5'6" and 125 lbs. Another is 6'2" and weighs 220. And they both have the same wing chun training and knowledge..and the same will-to-prevail.

The bigger man will almost always win in this situation - and to say otherwise is to deny reality. (One of the reasons for the never-ending search for secret magic-bullet techniques and strategies that others don't know - regardless of style)...as this is often a great equalizer in terms big man/small man...stronger man/weaker man outcomes in fights.

And let's not kid ourselves about wing chun footwork, either. There's good wing chun footwork and (more often) ineffectual and all too simple and predictable wing chun footwork as well.

Yes...attributes and constant practice and conditioning play a major role...unless, of course, wing chun is just about doing demos (ie.-blindfolded chi sao, weapons forms, etc.)...

For that person wing chun's a "showhold" - to use a pro wrestling term.

Give me the real thing...thank you.

[Miles Teg]

Sihing says:
"The difference in WC is that it does not rely on these attributes as much as say Judo, or Karate".

I agree with that when it comes to Karate. After doing it for 10 years I found without the physical conditioning it couldnt really stand on its own. Obviously physical conditioning is great cause these guys were tough but I felt that after getting a little unfit it wasnt very useful.

Disagree when it comes to Judo. Not too long ago I started doing a littel Judo here in Japan and it was an eye opening experience. Little old guys letting me pin them down and then just rolling me off and ending up on top in a second etc.

[sihing]

Well I have to agree with some of what Victor said, the bigger man will win if the skill and will are equal, bigger usually means stronger.

The original purpose of this thread was to discuss if WC is a advanced MA or not. I think its been proven that WC is advanced, but the thread has been now changed to more of a does conditioning win over skill debate. In boxing usually the one with better conditioning will win(unless you have Ali like sences and skill), since the fights usually last multiple rounds and such(most boxers out of shape can last at least 2 rounds without losing it), running around and using the ring to their advantage. WC is about street fighting , not really about competing with other WC players and such, which I think would give us the most problems, fighting people with similar skills. Obviously if one is working out constantly then their skills and physical attributes will be better than one that isn't practicing, this is simple logic. The question is can I still fight, defend myself without practicing all the time, using WC. Yes, and you can get away with it better than a practicioner of any other martial art.

Miles Teg, if you just started to practice Judo, and these "little men" are experts then its fair to say that they had greater SKILL than you, therefore they were able to do what they did. Is this true?? If it is you just proved the point I've been try to make this whole thread.


sihing

[sihing]

oh, one more thing I forgot. How many WC players are there in the world?? 2 to 4 million ?? Out of 6 billion or so many people in the world, what are the chances of running into another WC player in the street. If I ended up in a fight with another WC player, we would probably stop fighting and go for a beer to talk technique, lol. I always like to tell the students that I/we may not be the best fighter/s around(I know I'm not) but I/we will give everyone a challenge.


sihing

[Miles Teg]

Yep they had the skills and techniques that I dont have yet. I just meant that I feel that the ground game is just as much about skill development and effiency of movement and effort as W.C is.

[sihing]

yes I agree with you there Miles. I remember watching the first UFC's back in the early 90's and appreciating the Gracie's for the fact that they were using technique's and skill to defeat their opponents. I found it funny when watching the UFC when they would introduce the fighters, then show there bio's with their respective styles listed. But once the fight started they all looked the same to me, sloppy kickboxing, lol.

sihing

[black and blue]

sihing,

Do you regularly work out with skilled exponents from other arts? I would say not judging from your posts.

Advanced art? Well, while it might not be a basic art, go talk to someone with skill (and time in) from an internal art. Spar with them. Let them show you what they consider to be an 'advanced art'.

Wing Chun is a great martial art, but lets not blow its trumpet too loudly. :rolleyes:

To not mince my words, maybe you have to spout this nonsense to potential students in order to make what you do a commercial success... but I urge you, find some skilled exponents of other arts, tell them about your views on Wing Chun being the 'most effective MA', tell then you are an instructor, then go spar with them.

Then.... modify your club's literature and posters etc to describe WC for what it really is.

Regarding the YM fights.....

Is there anyone from Leung Sheung lineage (KJ perhaps?) who may have heard more about this initial meeting in HK, and what happened? Every MA has stories of its greats kicking b.utt... but did LS ever give any detail about the kicking he received?

Regarding William Cheung's stories... I take them all with a pinch of salt. Like most of the big names in Wing Chun, he's also been guilty of a few tall stories, IMO.

:rolleyes:

[sihing]

black and blue,
so when I go to "spar" with this other person, am I allowed to poke his eyes out, attack the throat, bite, head butt, spit in his face, rip his muscles off his body, and visa versa for him?? Or do we just box around the room and try this and try that?????Since when is WC a playroom art. "lets not blow the trumpet to loudly", lol. All of my post are IMHO, with "MY" being the important word. Not looking for validation.

Oh yeah, don't have to go looking for fighters in other MA. They come to us, then join the school( its happened to many times to count)

sihing

[black and blue]

:rolleyes:

For sure, you must be a deadly mother f**ker with those crazy Wing Chun skills that attract so many Martial Artists.

"Not looking for validation"

Good. You aren't going to get it.

[sihing]

hey, now I'm honestly not try to be a s*** disturber. black and blue, your opinion is a valid as mine, I have no problem with that, just trying to debate a topic that's all. When you ask me if I work out much with other martial artists. Well quite frankly no, only with the ones in the school that have previous experience with other MA. But why would I? I believe in my art and my skills and besides that I'm not trying to be the "deadliest man" in the world. But I will say this, if someone is trying to kill someone in my family they will be taken out(using WC or whatever), hole will be dug and no questions asked. Isn't that the only time its really needed??

sihing

[Gangsterfist]

Ever spar a good CLF person? Its a wake up call for your wing chun skills I promise.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"For sure, you must be a deadly mother f**ker with those crazy Wing Chun skills that attract so many Martial Artists.

"Not looking for validation"

Good. You aren't going to get it."



Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

[anerlich]

so when I go to "spar" with this other person, am I allowed to poke his eyes out, attack the throat, bite, head butt, spit in his face, rip his muscles off his body, and visa versa for him??

A couple of articles which soundly refute the "sparring's useless because our fighting techniques are too deadly to spar with" arguments:

http://www.realfighting.com/0503/mthorntonframe.html

http://www.straightblastgym.com/page.asp?section=paul&parent=Press

[Miles Teg]

Great articles!

I like the comment "those rules are protecting both of us". Never thought of it that way.