Taking it to the next level...from forms to fighting.

[Fu-Pow]

It's funny that Meatshake just posted a simlar topic. Anyways, I just had some thoughts as I was sitting on the toilet in the bathroom.

I've been doing a lot of free fighting lightly. Medium to hard contact.

One of my biggest weakness is that I will do a nice "set up" on my opponent by blocking him or dodging or whatever. This happens mostly from instinct and muscle memory.

However, I often miss the opportunity for the follow up attack.

It's like in a split second the opening presents itself but by the time I realize I'm seeing it it is gone.

In contrast when I get very close to my opponent I don't worry about blocking or setting up the opponent. I just move in and fire away....hard and fast. No blocking, no set up. Just smash...smash...smash.....

This strategy can work well also, especially with CLF. My opponent often just ends up "covering up" because he can't deal with that hard of an offense. However, I also often end up getting smashed in the face because I'm not worrying about blocking only about offense. And when you're in the opponents striking range you seriously have to move fast to get in.


It seems that the best way is to "set up" your opponent and then overpower him....that is, when his balance is upset or you have changed your angle. It seems like this kind of set up and rapid attack should be contained within hand forms.

But obviously you cannot stick to a set pattern from the hand form because your opponent may change his strategy at anytime. So how do you maintain sensitivity to what your opponent is doing when you are in close and launching an offense?

Maybe some of you San Shou guys have some ideas on this.

:)

[Meat Shake]

"So how do you maintain sensitivity to what your opponent is doing when you are in close and launching an offense?

Maybe some of you San Shou guys have some ideas on this. "

Fight.
:)

Seriously.
The only way you can learn how someone moves it to feel it, and you have to fight with all different types, because each person moves and flows differently.

[Royal Dragon]

Learn to set up really good, so you have controll of your opponents actions. Then memorise some standard offenses used specifically for following those setups. Work on getting the setup, and the offense should just fire off from there.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Don't forget the mental side, you also need to be mentally ready.

One of the biggest hurdle to overcome for moden day man is that he was being told from childhood:
1.) Fighting is bad
2.) Don't hurt people
3.) etc.

Plus, many teachers don't prep their students properly for the transition.

[omarthefish]

Continuity drills dude.

You have just perfectly described the problem with going "full contact all the time".

There's tons of them. Mainly you have to get out of the mindset that wants to 'win' and into the mindset that wants to learn. AND you need a partner who can think that way as well. Spar lighter. It's o.k. for your partner to be able to block/parry everything. Actually it's good. Get some friendly "volleys" going. Land blows based on good setups, misdirection and broken rythmn instead of landing blows because you were stronger, faster, more aggressive.

I got from your post that the problem was one of freezing up a sec and missing opportunities.

Take turns kicking at each other. One kick only. Do NOT wait for an opening. No back and forth on a straight line. Just freely moving around the sparring area kicking back and forth. You should kick sometimes before his foot has reached the ground from his previous kick. But the key is NOT to kick faster than him. It's to get a continuous rythmn going. People usually freeze up a bit when they block a kick. This changes that freeze response into a counterattack response.

Smile :D :D :D

Nothing ever improved my game like learning to smile and to take real pleasure from sparring.

Slow down you game. If your partner block your stuff better you will be forced to keep it coming. Save the "Hulk SMASH!!!" strategy for an actualy fight. Sparring is a game. It should be fun. It's your chance to experiment.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Maybe some of you San Shou guys have some ideas on this.

FP, with all respect, you really don't wanna hear my opinion. You won't like it.

Good luck in your pursuits and if what you're doing makes you happy.. keep doing it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow

One of my biggest weakness is that I will do a nice "set up" on my opponent by blocking him or dodging or whatever. This happens mostly from instinct and muscle memory.

However, I often miss the opportunity for the follow up attack.

That's a training issue. It happens. Get in the habit of always following up. Throw combinations of at least four techniques. Think "punches in bunches". Not following up WILL get you knocked out...trust me.

It's like in a split second the opening presents itself but by the time I realize I'm seeing it it is gone.

that's another training issue. drilling can help cure it. when sparring, make a conscious effort to pay attention to certain openings you know you always miss. For example, I am working on catching kicks more. I try to catch as many kicks per round as I can, whether I get hit or not.

This strategy can work well also, especially with CLF. My opponent often just ends up "covering up" because he can't deal with that hard of an offense.

train with some sport fighters if you get the chance. they're taught not to just cover up, for the very reason you stated. As you are throwing punches, I will be covering, moving and firing back, not just covering and being a sitting duck. Once you become comfortable with the fact that you will get hit, this is alot easier.



However, I also often end up getting smashed in the face because I'm not worrying about blocking only about offense. And when you're in the opponents striking range you seriously have to move fast to get in.

work bobbing and weaving. Also work your head movement. stick and move, etc.


It seems that the best way is to "set up" your opponent and then overpower him....that is, when his balance is upset or you have changed your angle.

Overpowering someone isn't always as easy as some think it is. changing your angle isn't anything really major, unless you clock him HARD as soon as you change it - he can change angles just as fast as you can.


It seems like this kind of set up and rapid attack should be contained within hand forms.

even if it is, the form won't teach you how to apply it against a resisgting opponent.

But obviously you cannot stick to a set pattern from the hand form because your opponent may change his strategy at anytime. So how do you maintain sensitivity to what your opponent is doing when you are in close and launching an offense?

practice.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Learn to set up really good, so you have controll of your opponents actions. Then memorise some standard offenses used specifically for following those setups. Work on getting the setup, and the offense should just fire off from there.

those set ups won't have the same effect on everyone. Do you think that ford, st, mstoo, mp, mk, rtb and I will all react the same way to your setup?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


FP, with all respect, you really don't wanna hear my opinion. You won't like it.

Good luck in your pursuits and if what you're doing makes you happy.. keep doing it.
That's the most pretentious arsehole of an answer I've seen in a long time.

[joedoe]

FWIW I agree with 7*. Just training issues, and more practice required. Also, don't expect to be able to use combos exactly, you need to be able to mix-and-match and adjust to how your opponent reacts.

[rubthebuddha]

for the record, rtb's reaction to a setup:

step in punching and, if bridge is made with something other than face, let chi sau take over.




i love having the "easy" job. :D

[yenhoi]

chi sau is a training method it cant take over silly.

FP needs:

Better instructor and training partners that know how to train with focus mitts (not just hitting them, training with them... they should hit back.)

Progeressive sparring: Sparr with rules or limitations. Perhaps you can only use your lead hand in offense and he can use all his tools, and the like.

More fighting. Less forms.

:eek:

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Move to unbalance your opponent and attack the mid-section.. opponents trying to regain balance are not using the muscles as "armor", and that lets the power get deeper into the target..

Close the gap and stick to your opponent, too much time is wasted in long-range exchanges, too much opportunity to recover from a good but distant technique..

Train with some Muay Thai and JKD people.. you will learn how to get hit and recover (or not).. and you will appreciate JKD positioning..

Be well..

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks for the responses.

I've been trying to incorporate some sparring type drills into the classes that I teach. For example, 3 step sparring, dodging drills, simultanous block and attack drills, etc.

Unfortunately, my Sifu ultimately intervenes and tells me that it is a waste of time and we only need a killer attitude (Saat Hei) and to blast the hell out of our opponent (like he had killed our father...lol).

This strategy of pure aggression can work often. I know because I've seen it work. Especially on the street where you don't want to mess around...it's all or nothing.

But in order to develop a more refined technique and work on a continuous "flow" of attack and DEFENSE more controlled drills are needed. Other wise you start "experimenting" and the other guy is trying to take your head off and it's bad news for you (this is exactly what happened last Friday when I got pummeled in the nose...it was very bloody!) Ultimately it creates an environment where people are literally afraid to spar because everytime they do they get a bloody nose or wind knocked out of them or what have you.

It's a balance I guess. Because you don't want people to get lulled into a false sense of security about fighting by doing too many drills w/ no risk of getting hit. But on the other hand if no one wants to spar because they fear injury then no one gets better.

In this respect I think that my Taiji is ingenious w/ it's pushhands drills. It allows you to work on fighting skills in a very controlled and systematized way. However, what lacks at my Taiji school is live real time sparring. It's a little too "formalized" and there is no threat of getting popped in the head.

Anyways, if my Sifu won't let me do these drills in class then perhaps I'll go outside of class w/ some people on my non-class days.

BTW, I don't mean to disrespect or belittle my Sifu. He is an awesome fighter and a natural athlete. He has proven himself many times over, not only in the street but in the ring. (In fact we have a great article that should be coming out in next months Kung Fu Tai Chi magazine which outlines some of his street fighting strategies.....Gene should like that pre-premotion!)

I just think that my Sifu is somewhat lacking in a progressive sparring program to take the novice non-natural athlete up to his high level. His philosophy is just sink or swim.

Unfortunately, this leaves gaps (for example, my continuity problem) in his students fighting abilities.

Perhaps, as a senior student I can be the one to bridge this gap by researching and developing drills that mesh with our style . :D

Peace.