The Sparring Debate

[Miles Teg]

Ultimatewingchun says something to the effect of:
"People who are experts at chi sao and dont spar enough cant fight".



I say: "People who are expert sparrers lose real fights".
That statement makes as little sense (and is just as hard to back up) as your remark about too much Chi Sao.

Where is the evidence that either of these statements are true. What you want to say is: I have no statistics or solid proof that too much chi sao and no sparring make someone a bad fighter in street encounters, however I believe that sparring is important to my training and I strongly feel it has helped me in the real life fights that I have experienced so far.

Gangster Fist says
�gChi Sao is not fighting�h

That�fs right, but neither is sparring. The issue is whether sparring is the best activity one can do to prepare for a real life fight encounter. I believe there is no evidence to support that sparring accomplishes this any more than anything else you could train.

Its all highly debatable. I don�ft think sparring is bad, and I don�ft think people who spar in class are misguided but there are many amongst us on this forum who have chosen a school where sparring is not the preferred method of training. All I am suggesting is that a little respect be shown to people who follow this idea. Don�ft go making statements that all chi sao and no sparring wont help you in a fight or about how we are unrealistic and misguided. One could just as easily say that a person who is good at sparring is fostering a false sense of security on the street when they shouldn�ft be.
Different approaches for different characters and people. There are enough options in the martial art world for everyone to find what suits them best. We have all found what we like, enough said.

[Gangsterfist]

Sparring is as close as you can get to real fighting with out seriously hurting yourself or your partners. I spar at half or more power sometimes. I get black eyes, fat lips, bruised ribs etc. Its a risk I am willing to take to better myself at my art.

Chi sao helps develope skills and attributes for fighting. However, if you try to fight like you chi sao you will more than likely get your a$$ handed to you.

I know there are some people I have trained with that are good at chi sao, but that is all they do. I chi sao them and its hard to break their structure and win at the game called chi sao. In sparring matches where a lot more can happen they have a lot harder time controlling me.

There is a distinct difference and you need to balance out your training to be a good fighter. If that is not your goal, and your goal is to just be a martial artist and not a fighter, then by all means keep chi saoing.

[Miles Teg]

Metadragon says on the "sparring in wing chun" forum:

"I've spent some time sparring a few different styles using Wing Chun. These include boxing, kickboxing, karate, and Mantis kung fu. I think it's very useful to try and apply your art's theory and technique against someone who either doesn't know or more specifically doesn't care about them"



This is a great statement because it is clear he is giving his opinion and offers the wealth of his experience to back it up. Rather than forcing his opinio down everyones throat, which always leaves a bad taste in peoples mouths.

[Miles Teg]

Reply to gangsterfist:
So should you fight like you spar?

[Gangsterfist]

Yes you should try to spar realistically. Even though nothing is going to be as close as a real fight, other than a fight. I have had knives pulled on me on the streets and I did not even try to fight the guy. I just gave him the money in my pocket and slowly backed off. So there is definately going to be differences. In the kwoon I can try to disarm the assailant or fight back, because its a controlled enviroment and the knife we use in class is a rubber one. On the streets I would not ever try to fight a guy w/ a knife. Then why train such things? Because, there may be a point in my life where I don't have the choice of not fighting.

Don't get me wrong. I think chi sao is a genious tool and helps develope sensitivty which can be an important skill to utilize in a fight. You have to disguinish the differences IMHO. I have not been in a real one on one fight in a long time. The last fight I got into, I didn't even really use any kung fu at all. I just boxed the guy because thats all I had to do. All the other fights I have been in usually is multiple opponets Vs multiple opponets.

I practice chi sao, and strive to be better at it. I think its important. Chi sao is kind of like a testing lab, where you can learn to feel things out and act upon things effecting you. Chi sao can be progressive with added foot work and other dynamics. Chi sao is like a fight in the sense that you will never have the exact same chi sao experience twice, just like you will never have the same exact fight twice.

Sometimes chi sao can be counter-productive as well. One might develope a few good chi sao techniques that help them win at chi sao a lot. They may then in return start to rely on those techniques and have some sort of false confidence that they would work that exact way in a real fight.

In my experience I always try to touch hands with as many people as possible across many different fighting styles. I just recently sparred my roomate who is now taking tai hui. Every different experience allows me to adjust my wing chun (and taiji) abilities to make them work realistically for me. What may work for me, may be useless to someone else.

Sparring also allows you to try out techniques and moves that may or may not even help you in a fight. I know when I spar and I have the opportunity to do a lunging side kick, I take it. To test the waters so to speak. To see if I could pull it off. If it works it works.

These are some experiences and thougths not made to be absolutes. Everyone is different and will be better at different things in kung fu. One of my brothers did some kick boxing before wing chun. He has some power long range kicks with good flexibility. he can kick me in the face with speed and accuracy. I cannot do that really so I do not kick higher than the stomach. I have taken a few shots by him, and after getting kicked in the head a few times I learned to act against it. I may not win against his kick everytime, but he has to work a lot harder to pull it off on me now.

Just some thoughts...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Spar as realistically as possible...ie.- thin gloves, head/face gear, pad up the shins and knees and kick the legs (while wearing shoes, sneakers, etc.)...

occasionally spar without headgear and gloves (or anything) - with a partner you trust...and with lighter contact...but still enough to hurt when you take a shot...

try to take each other down...fight on the floor...

Realism is the key. Make you're sparring as realistic as possible.

Do this often - along with your chi sao...and your fighting ability can only get better.

[reneritchie]

I don't understand how this is even a debate.

In the old days, WCK people sparred and fought.

Today, some people still fight, but the risk of fatality, injury, and legal action makes it a much more limited option.

Today, sparring is still an option, and is just one of the progressive, systematic elements that develop WCK (or any practical martial art).

Now this can range from extremely light contact, protective equipment, step-by-step exploration, to full contact, no equipment, completely free-style testing, and everything in between, depending on the individual, their goals, needs, and personal preferences.

When engaged in with a roughly similar skilled partner, it builds timing, distancing, embeds skills into stress-level responses, highlights what areas are working and what needs more work, increases realism, and decreases ego/bs.

(Note, some people will naturally be good fighters, like some are naturally good at memorization or language or whatever. Their benefit from sparring may vary. Others will not).

So, unless there is some radical fringe group from the hippie set that just wants to stand around and do slow sets ad nauseum infinitum, in Bruce Lee tracksuits, taking green tea and mutually assuring themselves of their awesome 'far-to-dangerous-to-spar-with' Chi powered skilled, or people are using WCK tools to kickbox like TKD or MT rather than in a WCK specific/productive context so they can say they're WCK K-1 ready, I don't understand why there's a debate.

Next: hydration doesn't matter to the athlete. Discuss!

[Ernie]

rene
a thing of beauty :D

sparring natural progression to and from chi sau
problem is people don't know how to spar give gloves and pads and suddenly the go ape $hit

problem number one if you can't maintain your composer when your spar god forbid you get in a real fight

next great thing experience , you will find flaws in your balance , timing footwork and control of distance when you really try and hit or are being hit
you will find the need to adapt when sparring non wing chun people [ sparring wing chun people just a waste of time battle for center and non unexpected attacks to adapt to ]
you will find out if your conditioning lacks anything
your emotional control

if you know how to spar you will build it up gradually just like you did in chi sau . isolate one motion adapt it and then start to put things together '' sound familiar ''

sparring can be anything you need it to be , but until you shut up and get in there and experience it with many people and with a progressive approach then your formulating opinions based on other peoples experience not your own

talk to me after you have a few years of isolated and progressive sparring , not just 2 dumb asses trying to rush each other
you would do that in chi sau why would you do it when you spar
don't be scared it's o.k. to face yourself in uncomfortable environments
it's the only way to really grow beyond a training system

as Rene said non issue

or you can keep pretending
:D

[Miles Teg]

Like I said I dont think its bad. Im�@sure your all right about the skills that you can develop from it. I just dont think it should be thrown down everyones throat as being the "only way".
What am I scarred of? Nothing really. I dont live in a rough neighbourhood (right now I live in Japan, safest country in the world), and I know the highest chance of me getting in a fight is if I listen to my ego and let some disgruntled US marine offend me in a bar. I am also of the opinion that if I did live in a rough neighbourhood and my survival was a priority, I wouldnt run around thinking Im going to be able to disarm knife fighters or taking on 3 guys on my own - whether I train "realistically" (whatever that is) or in "hippie fashion ". If survival is an issue you better believe Im preparing myself with something better than wing chun skills.

And RR I dont see why this is a debate either. People wanna spar they spar, people who dont want to wont. Pretty straight foward to me. Just dont go labelling people for not wanting to.

I used to spar alot when I did Karate. I personally found it more damaging than beneficial. That might just be due to bad quality sparing though but I am willing to bet most people who have the same opinion as me also have a background in other martial arts too and have not just been born into wing chun with no idea of other fighting styles.

[flaco]

sparring is a must, but does not always make you a better street fighter.sparring is usually against another guy with some skill, not some dumb ass crazy guy on the street, and if you thin k dumb ass crazy guys are easy to beat,wake up.
sparring developes atrributes,fear response, etc, but your still just kidding yourself that it makes you a better fighter in a real situation, of course it makes you better than not sparring, but, you develope a habit of fighting trained people, peoople who are not out to kill you, you cannot get bit with headgaer on, and you cant bite with a mouthpiece on, you cannot kick your training partner square in the balls as hard as you can, also you wouldnt just cold clock him while hes getting his gear on(most barfights ive had are started with a cheap shot)and most people, myself included get tons of injuries in training real sparring, only to realize that it is all about ego.if you want to learn to fight for real, you have to go fight for real. also i have had, and seen only a few fights last over 3 minutes, and that was an eternity fight. so you better be conditioned, your adrenalne goes off the hook.
i have a ton of injuries from the gym, and a few from the street, but nothing i did in class or sparring prepared me for someone hitting me with a bottle, or cold clocking me when i wasnt looking. my last fight was won because of sparring, but me and him squared off(road rage) this is a rare thing to be able to face your opponent. in high school, people went outiside and fought, and in some places this happens, but by me, its usually a cheap shot, or as i saw recenlty a quick shank, and no knifefighting drills or sparring can help you in this scenario.
so in closing, both sides are correct in my opinion. if 2 guys square off in the street, then yes, sparring helps, if cheap shots and first shot wins type of fights take place, nothing can prepare you.depends on where you live, and what the mentality is. i am super peaceful in my area nowadays, nobody fights with honor, so im the friendly guy now, and life is much easier, i sparr and train as realistically as possible, ibut i realistically know that its still not real.if someone calls me out, i should be ok, but that rarely happens, its more like--hey wats up, BAM, your nose is broke,fights over, or stab, your laying down unconcious, as he continues to walk away.

[Ernie]

miles
used to spar alot when I did Karate. I personally found it more damaging than beneficial. That might just be due to bad quality sparing


i came from a hwa ran do back ground as a kid and i have done boxing kick boxing , savate and thai

and i got hurt way more then i needed to be , because at the time i didn't understand how to spar and develop skill

no need to hardcore it , you and your partner control the tempo and energy

i respect your honesty

and when i asked about being scarred , it's not a macho don't be a wuss thing
but more a facing our own flaws and weakneses in a enviroment we can't cover them up in .

chi sau doesn't offer that same level of honesty , it's to pridictable
now i am a fim believer that chi sau is a incredible benifit to any person that wants to gain the tools for fighting skill , just like hu bud for the filipinos or rolling for the bjj but these tools need to learn adaptability and natural expression
and in my eyes and experience only when you place yourself in un easy water do you really learn to swim
staying in the pool is to safe

and again the journey is not about being some tough guy , but removing layers of yourself and seeing who you really are

not coming down on you i just have seen so many positive transformations including my own through controlled sparring ,

[Ultimatewingchun]

Miles Teg:

Lots of Karate back in the day (perhaps now still?) was taught in a pretty crazy manner when it came to sparring.

Four years before I started Wing Chun...back in 1971...I studied a Korean style called Muk Duk Kwan for about a year. I was living in the dormitories while going to Hofstra University, in Hempstead, NY (Long Island). I was 20 years old...as was the instructor (a black belt) - and all the other students were about that age as well. There were about maybe 25 guys in the class. I was in the school exactly two weeks (wearing a white belt, naturally) when someone said..."Let's see what the guy from Brooklyn can do?"

I was matched up... to spar!!!.... a guy who was so big his nickname was Tiny! (He went about 6'4" and weighed about 240)...and he was there about six months and was a yellow belt. I'm 5' 10" and weigh 170...but in those days I was about 140 lbs. soaking wet.

The numbskull instructor laid down the following rules: Victor, the white belt...here two weeks - can attack. But Tiny can only defend. That was it. I'm bare foot, in a Karate gi, on a mat, with no protective equipment except a groin cup...and have been told that I can do basically anything I want to try and hurt this huge guy in front of me. He's only allowed to block or otherwise try to avoid my attacks.

And with about 25 different ...18-21 year old college crazies yelling "go get him...hit him...kick him"...yadda, yadda.

So I went all-out to try and punch this guy, and with an occasional pretty lousy rear front kick thrown in for good measure...

Well...after awhile - Tiny got nervous...and after dodging my assaults and almost breaking my big toe with a downward block on one of my kicks that I followed with a vicious left hook that would have definitely hurt him had it connected...well...he had...had enough.

He caught me right in the solar plexus with a lead sidekick as I was actually moving in to him.

I didn't fully catch my breath and get up off the floor for about three minutes!

Yeah...that class was a lotta fun....LOL.

Later on that year...before I had the good sense to leave that class permanently...I had a front tooth knocked out from a backfist and headaches from several hook kicks to the head that didn't go away for about a week.

There's a right way to go about sparring and there's a wrong way...

But don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

[reneritchie]

I don't sparring as distinct. Some people may not want to do Chi Sao. Some may not want to do forms. Some may not want to do any physical action at all and just smoke, play majong, and say they belong to the club.

IMHO, none of the above is acceptable.

Ernie is correct in that people who don't want to spar may not know what sparring is. They may think it's Jean Claude Van Damm in Bloodsport, or that its kids from the TKD school in puff-pads kicking far away in the air.

It's just a tool. Like forms. Like Chi Sao.

And I understand the hesitation. When I did Judo as a kid, I didn't want to do Newaza because I didn't want to get mauled by bigger kids. I made myself do it. I developed skill and confidence.

When I did Karate, I didn't want to spar. I didn't want to get roughed up by bigger teens. I made myself do it. I developed skill and confidence.

In WCK, I didn't want to Chi Sao for the same reason. I made myself love Chi Sao. I did it more than anything else. Same with sparring. I would find people of different systems and try sparring them to. Each time, I hated it and made myself love it. Because I understood it was necessary, and if I had to do it, there was not point not liking it.

You need to do solo sets. You need to Chi Sao. You need to Spar (San Sao). They are the three pillars. Take one away, and unless you're a natural fighter (I'm not), you risk a collapsing structure when pressure is applied.

[KenWingJitsu]

Sparring isn t the same as a "real fight" true, but is chi-sao??????LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

Sparring is the closest you can come to a real fight....not chi-sao.

There are many ways to "spar" besides the "kickbox' model. If you dont know how to Isolate situations or isolate scenarios or isolate tools and spar them in isolation, then your view of sparring is hopelessly narrow.

Bottom line is if you can spar well, you can fight if you have to. If you cant spar, ya cant fight.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"If you can spar well, you can fight if you have to. If you cant spar, ya cant fight."


Let's...eh...FRAME that one and hang it on the wall.

[Miles Teg]

Wow! Good responses. Not much to say. May - have - to- give -some - ground - here. Will - need - to - re-examine - current - philosphy. Aghh - paradigm - shift. The - brain - pain!!

[TheBlackDragons]

Correct me if I'm wrong But Full contact sparring is
as close as yoy come to the real thing?
sparring is just a softer form of practice

[TheBlackDragons]

Correct me if I'm wrong But Full contact sparring is
as close as you come to the real thing?
sparring is just a softer form of practice

and also It's my theory if you are proficent in Chi sau

If you learn haow to apply it to fighting you would be a formidable fighter

[Lindley57]

All,

First, it should be clear that Chi Sao is an exercise and it's benefits come from a long process. Chi Sao, for all the training of martial attributes and the priniciples of the system, has a part of it that constrains it to another Wing Chun player. The goal of Chi Sao is to incoporate your training so that your reactions become instinctive. One gains trust in their "weapons" as well as learn to commit to entering an opponents boundary. Chi Sao allows us an immense amount of time to break down, discuss and study this.

Sparring is generally a more controlled atmosphere consisting of rules and protective gear (usually). The opponent does not have to be another Wing Chun player to share in its value. However, unlike Chi Sao, sparring often times does not present itself as an arena for study during the session. Little to no discussions. If someone has a great technique (i.e. Kick), will they share with you how best to defend it? Or will they just continue to use it until someone else figures out on their own how to contend with it? And if that happens, will our kicker avoid that person or work on it to make it better?

We view sparring as an experience. We spar other schools and other styles. We present our intentions to the leaders of the other schools as an opportunity for each of us to experience the others style as honestly as possible with more realistic results than someone from within simulating some techniques from the other style. It is understood that as an experience, there are no winners and losers. No points. No cheers. There is no determination of superior style or school or teacher. We video tape to review the sessions for later discussions. We then can relate the ways the Kung Fu can help any areas of weakness. Another important aspect of Sparring also allows for the student to deal with the emotional and psychological elements of engagment.

We circumvent the politics through presentation. The students put together hung bo (lucky money) to give to the school leader and everyone usually congratulates each other at the end.

In our training, we prefer to emphasize the Kung fu over the sparring. One interesting note is that we spar people who have sparring as part of their curriculum. Our group primarily utilizes their Kung Fu skills to adapt to the sparring arena, which we have found very effective especially from students at junior levels. To date we have sparred with a couple of Karate stylists, a Shaolin Kung Fu group, and one other Wing Chun group. It has so far been a great experience for us and them.

To seek some value from the sparring, we have one match at a time where everyone can observe. Two two minute rounds with a minute rest between.

The Chi Sao serves as a laboratory to test and heighten your skillset. The principles and attirbutes (balance, coordination, timing, sensitivity, and relaxation) are trained to become a part of you. Sparring offers a method to test using your skills for fighting. Notice also that in Chi Sao we start from a point of touching while sparring we often do not. We must also remember that a real fight in the street introduces the psychological element of life or death, which is not present in either Chi Sao or Sparring.

Does being good at chi sao mean you can fight or be good at sparring? The question begs at what good means. If one may be considered good by means of extracting and applying the benefits to application while also penetrating and controlling another player, then yes maybe they might be good at sparring. If one just overwhelms opponents and treats Chi Sao as a game then most likely not. Keep in mind that being the Chi Sao or Sparring champ of your own club is limiting. One should travel around and respectively play Chi Sao with senior students (not the Sifu's) of other schools to test your ability. If you are so lucky to do so!

Martial Arts is not so black and white that if one plays good Chi Sao or does well in sparring they will be successful in a realistic fight or vice versa. Like training 5 days a week versus 1 day a week, it should have some positive impact. But we all know that more does not always mean better, especially if those 5 days are not trained correctly and the one day is.

Good luck in your Kung Fu!

[kj]

Nice summary, Lindley57.

For numerous reasons, I too find that there is more value in controlled "sparring" with people from other styles and outside our school.

We (me and mine) also find that our time in class is better spent working on core attributes and skills through the training model inherent within the system, including as much chi sau with as many hands as we can manage.

I don't know how many of our forefathers would have been today's UFC champs, yet IMO, the Wing Chun system architects were not chumps.

Regards,
- kj

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by kj
...I don't know how many of our forefathers would have been today's UFC champs, yet IMO, the Wing Chun system architects were not chumps...

Regards,
- kj


I totally agree. They knew exactly what they were doing when they created wing chun.

[Miles Teg]

I am beginning to agree with Ernie, gangsterfist and ultimate in regards to the value of sparring. I also agree with KJ and I would also not want to include it in class curriculum, I would rather focus that time on Chi SAo etc. But going out and mixing it up with other styles has to be valuable.

In conclusion: I resolve to give it a go. Ill let you know how it goes!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Miles:

Going out and mixing it up with other styles and schools is a good thing - with much to be gained.

But sparring within your school (especially if there are people around who have learned other styles)...is also a good thing.

A very good thing - since it will help prepare you in ways that chi sao alone couldn't do...for when you do spar other styles/schools.

As well as preparation for the street.
And IMO, it should be done often (ie. - at least once a week).

[Gangsterfist]

When I was sparring the bagua hsing-i guys it was a blast. They kept circling me and I just rotated my bai jong to match them everytime not advancing or anything just letting them circle me. It was kind of like a movie ha ha ha. I was hoping they woudl wear themselves out, and it usually worked because when it went to the ground a lot of them were too tired to wrestle around. However, they were all tough guys and would never give up. They wouldn't even tap out unless you really hurt them heh it was a blast though, I can't wait till I can do it again.

One thing I can't stress enough though is, if you are going to make a move make it with conviction. Don't kid yourself with feints or half @ssed moves. You don't really learn that way. My sifu knows Choy Li Fut as well, and was teaching us some stuff last class. He told us how biu sao would not work against the inside of a CLF attack. He said the CLF attack would crash your biu sao almost every time. So, of course what did I try to do? I tried using the biu sao on the inside of the attack and I got hit ha ha ha. I just had to experience it for myself.