Long term effects of shin conditioning

[IronFist]

Can we have an intelligent discussion about this? The usual answers are things like:


if u do that to[sic] much u'll get arthrtisis[sic] in ur[sic] shins

Guess what, your shin is not a joint, and therefore you can't get arthritis.

Now, I'm aware of Wolff's Law that states that when repetitive force is applied to a bone, it becomes more dense (ok I think that's Wolff's Law. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

What causes the increase in pain tolerance?

What causes shins to snap like in that Muay Thai clip that gets posted on martial arts boards every so often?

You hear about 40 year old Thai Boxers who were crazy in their youth and now can't walk properly cuz of shin and leg damage. But is that legit? It'd assume shin conditioning would be better for you then knuckle conditioning, and lots of people still have functioning hands after conditioning them (altho a lot of people have messed up hands, too).

In terms of actual damage done to the shin, is there a difference, other than in pain, between a total n00b blocking a hard kick with his shin and falling over in pain, and a well-conditioned person blocking the same hard kick and not even being bothered by it?

So let's talk about it, but lets keep it an intelligent discussion.

[shaolin kungfu]

What causes the increase in pain tolerance?

Deadening of nerves would be my geuss.


What causes shins to snap like in that Muay Thai clip that gets posted on martial arts boards every so often?

No idea, but i'll say something anyways. Maybe it has something to do with hitting the shin just right, or not drinking enough milk, or fantasizing about your cousin, or believing in Ashida KIm. who knows?:confused:

I never took thai boxing so i really dont know.

[Kristoffer]

quote:What causes the increase in pain tolerance?





Deadening of nerves would be my geuss.

I read somewhere that 'deadening of nerves' is just a myth, like the ostrich don't hide their heads in the ground.

[yenhoi]

The pain tolerance comes from "killing the nerves" on the front of your shins. Im not sure about Wolffs law, but they will get thicker and heavier with use, both from denser bone, and denser leg muscles. Someone else should come on here and explain about thai's calcium deficient diet, which would prevent the bones from getting thicker and make the leg/bone weaker with use. Master Chai and many others in the US and now in Thailand are very good examples of older thai's that have no bone problems.

You should also notice your leg hair growing thinning or dissapearing, and the shape of the front of your leg should be getting "sharper" as that thin muscle gets stronger and bigger.


:eek:

[yenhoi]

I dont think the nerves die, they become accustomed. Just like other places you hit things with or get hit on, like forearms and your face.

There are many thread on this subject here, or at least at www.defend.net

:eek:

[Judge Pen]

I'd say that the older MT peeps that have leg problems have suffered several hairline fractures etc that went untreated and caused complecations later in time. If you take care of yourself and don't overtrain, you should be able to condition your shins without long-term adverse effects.

FWIW, my shin-training involves application of dit da jow after rolling a pvc pipe full of sand over them a few hundred times.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Judge Pen: We also apply liberal amounts of Jow prior to the conditioning as well, my mentor says it helps the tissue change and the conditioning drives the jow deeper into the area..

Be well...

[Suntzu]

What causes the increase in pain tolerance? adaption + adrenaline......

What causes shins to snap like in that Muay Thai clip that gets posted on martial arts boards every so often? i read somewhere that dude had a previous break... and and just got caught in the right spot....
You hear about 40 year old Thai Boxers who were crazy in their youth and now can't walk properly cuz of shin and leg damage. But is that legit? years of getting kicked in the knees... hips... twisted ankles... etc will do crazy things to a persons stride.... no?...
In terms of actual damage done to the shin, is there a difference, other than in pain, between a total n00b blocking a hard kick with his shin and falling over in pain, and a well-conditioned person blocking the same hard kick and not even being bothered by it? doing pads last night i kept catching my toes on odd angles of the pad... hurt like a b!tch... but i could push thru it... even tho i took a lil steam out of my kicks..... i remember being a noob and doing the same but i had to hop around b'n & m'n like it was the worse pain in the world.... after a while you just get used to it... it hurts?... yep... big deal.... mix in the excitement of a fight situation... you wont feel a thing..... that is... until its over....

[red5angel]

I think breakage is a risk period, no matter how much conditioning you do. you start slamming your legs together like that and it has to happen some of the time, probably not a whole lot you can do about it except either, not do it, or take care of yourself as best you can.
I can't imagine the calcification that goes on does any damage to the legs, although techinically that's what your doing is damaging the bone. It wouldn't surprise me that there are side effects for some people but my guess would be that mosre often then not there are other factors. Genetics I'm sure can play a part but I think just taking care of yourself, not overtraining, getting plenty of calcium and watching for fractures and all those things Judge Pen mentioned.

[MasterKiller]

What causes the increase in pain tolerance?
Increased and repetitive trauma causes scar tissue to build up around the nerves.

[red5angel]

as a side not ethat may or may not have anything to do with it, I've noticed that when I'm working out consistantly doing wieghts and cardio my pain tolerance seems to go way up.

[Pork Chop]

Seems to me that there are a good number of thai coaches in the US who's professional careers in thailand have come and gone.

I think if there were any validity to this theory, there would be more of them zoomin around in wheel chairs at events.

I just don't see it.

Haven't even heard of this rumor outside of the kung fu community, who used it as a reason for the superiority of kung fu; ignoring the fact that kung fu masters of old used many more damaging training methods back in the day.

The sad truth is that these iron legs come from kicking the bag all day, not rolling pins, glass bottles, kicking 2x4s buried in the dirt, or any of the other methods you hear about. The rubber tree thing was an old school thing when they didn't have enough money for a bag.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

suntzu
sorry again bout the rear pad

[Suntzu]

it happens.................. LOL @ the thot of Master Danny in a chair.... "NOoooo... no do thaaaat... just BAUNG BAUNG... thas all u duuu..."

[Ray Pina]

Do you condition your legs this way, like boning a bat?

Does this fit in with Taiji theory?

[Judge Pen]

Why wouldn't iron shin training be consistent with Tai Chi? Just because it is a soft and flowing style doesn't mean they don't hit like a mack truck.

As for the bag being the ONLY way, I respectfully disagree. I think that will work, as will these other methods too. I'm wary of any MA who claims that their method is the only means to and end.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by yenhoi
You should also notice your leg hair growing thinning or dissapearing, and the shape of the front of your leg should be getting "sharper" as that thin muscle gets stronger and bigger.


I've heard the hair getting thinner thing before. The shape of the front of your leg shouldn't change at all. The muscle in the front of the shin (tibialis anterior) shouldn't be changing shape. Hitting a muscle doesn't make it bigger. That muscle only contracts when you pull your foot up toward your knee, anyway (the opposite of pointing your foot). Since the foot should be pointed when kicking or blocking (less risk of damage to the toes), the muscle would be relaxed and elongated and wouldn't even be making contact with whatever you're hitting.

Once again, the only way that muscle is going to get bigger if you do reverse calf raises, which 99% of people don't even know what that is. It's like saying forearm conditioning will make your forearm muscles bigger and stronger. It's not true.

Keep the discussion going.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by yenhoi
There are many thread on this subject here, or at least at www.defend.net

:eek:

Can you please post relevant links? I searched from the main page and got "File Not Found," and then I searched from the Forums index and got "no matches found." I searched for "shin conditioning."

Thanks.

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
As for the bag being the ONLY way, I respectfully disagree. I think that will work, as will these other methods too.

I think you missed my point.
I was coming from the viewpoint of the Thais.
If we're talking about the Thais, then my heavybag comment is accurate.
There have been plenty of people who've gone to training camps in thailand to train with competitive thais who have reported that said thais do nothing more than kick the heavybag for the insane shins.
You can read some of these accounts on the Underground's Kickboxing forum.
Heck the moderator there, Khun Kao, actually posts here.

[yenhoi]

Ill look around for links at defend.net.

The front of my shins has definitly become "sharper" in the last 2-3 years. Could be that my legs just weerent anything near as strong or as built as they coulda been at that point, but the muscle on the front has become more pronounced for sure. On a thai round kick you should be pointing your toes to make sure this muscle has a good amount of tension, among other reasons.

When we do 'rounds they have an equal about of knees (toes pointing down) and kicks (toes pointing up) and shields which sometimes have the toes up or down, but usually up.

At any rate, it takes thousands and thousands of repetitions before you have anything; sharpness, hardness, power, timing, etc.

:eek:

[Meat Shake]

My shins are hard like rocks. Often times while drunk at parties I knock on them loudly to amaze the other drunkards... Then they try and start ****ing about their bruised shins.
Bahahaha.

<- rolls a 60 lb pvc pipe down the shins. I have beautiful bald strips down the middle too.
Sweet.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by BMore Banga


I think you missed my point.

:p I have been known to miss a point from time to time.

[Pork Chop]

I understand, especially with the hottie gf and all.
I actually found someone I like.
Supposed to go out with her again Saturday.
Of course I know it's gonna fall apart and she's gonna eventually get bored of me, but it's kinda cool for the time being.
On the other hand, unlike u I've got pix of this chick that are somewhat publically available. hehe

[Judge Pen]

Don't tease. You have to share!

And your self-confidence is infectious. :D

[IronFist]

Holy ****, this (http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=7101) guy broke his shin in a fight and posted pics and x-rays! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Pork Chop]

Umm don't know if she's quite as hot as a big school cheer leader.
Doesn't really capture what she looks like in person either tho.
Either way, I think she's dope.

My confidence is proportional to the external feedback I get.
Hard to be a c0cky b@st@rd when ya keep gettin beat down. lol




Edit:

Heck I thought most of you just ignored my posts.
Okay, we gotta do this the long way.
First go to My briefcase (http://f2.pg.briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/kichigaijin). Then click on the "my documents". Once that loads up, click on "Pretty".
If it's still not available, well i guess it just stinx.

[IronFist]

1. Your link doesn't work.

2. I think you posted that in the wrong thread.

[MasterKiller]

IF,
I used to worry about blowing out my knees. Now, I gotta have that **** in my head, too! :mad:

BB,
Linky no worky.

[norther practitioner]

That one pict says it isn't available...

anywho, to the losing of the hair on your shin.. try playing soccer in the fall (friction with the shin pads), and skiing 6 1/2 days a week avg. during the winter (friction with the ski boots). Then starting shin conditioning in spring, my front lower half of my legs were bald, people thought I got them waxed...lol, that was life my senior year in college. Shin conditioning is something that I need to start again. I used to jow, kick the bag, jow, role a wooden dowel up and down my shins, then jow again. Haven't done that in a grip though.

[Pork Chop]

1. I'll work on it
2. ummm i mentioned it in this thread, he requested it in this thread... sensitive about having your thread hijacked? :p


edit:
lemme know if that works (see above)

[MasterKiller]

Still no workie.

[Pork Chop]

you may have to have a yahoo account
not my fault they don't let us post pix to this ret@rded forum

[red5angel]

I have a yahoo acount and no workie.

[MasterKiller]

You can post a pic. Save it to your hard drive and upload it.

[Suntzu]

yahoo sucks and i still have hair on my shins...... must be doing it wrong or you guys have issues....... :D

[Judge Pen]

I still have hair on my shins too.

If this really worked for hair removal, then why haven't some guys started the "Iron Back" training?

[Pork Chop]

wonder if this works

[Starchaser107]

the president of iska came here
he directly said that shin striking is dangerous in the long term.
said alot of m.t. fighters die at young age due to blod clots they sustained in thier shins.


maybe they just didn't apply proper linament if any or treat themselves properly.
do any of you have any comments on this.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by BMore Banga
wonder if this works Yeah, she's cute.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Yeah, she's cute.

I agree.

Back on topic, the blood clot thing is interenting. Any documentation?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


I agree.

Back on topic, the blood clot thing is interenting. Any documentation?

I'm also curious. I've heard of rare instances where people die cuz a blood clot traveled from one part of their body to their heart or something, but I don't know.

Anyone have any info on this?

[IronFist]

Fundamentally, how would shin conditioning differ from forearm conditioning?

[Suntzu]

maybe the lack of protective muscle does more damage than to the forearm area.....*shrug*

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by BMore Banga


I think you missed my point.
I was coming from the viewpoint of the Thais.
If we're talking about the Thais, then my heavybag comment is accurate.
There have been plenty of people who've gone to training camps in thailand to train with competitive thais who have reported that said thais do nothing more than kick the heavybag for the insane shins.
You can read some of these accounts on the Underground's Kickboxing forum.
Heck the moderator there, Khun Kao, actually posts here.

actually, I read in "muay thai: a living legacy" last night that back in the day, fighters did roll their shins. I would say kicking the bag is definitely where the conditioning comes from these days, and kicking the bananna tree was the main method back then.

[IronFist]

Come on, more info, blood clots, broken shins, long term problems, let's keep talking about these things.

[yenhoi]

Rick faye gives a speach at the end of his seminars about bruises on the legs and blood clots. I have video Id have to watch again for details but he explains to rub and massage out bruises immediatly (after training) and throught the "life" of the bruise to prevent clotting and complications much later on.

Keeping your bones healthy is about diet, not overtraining, and training smart ( I think bags and other peoples shins are enough, but rolling things works too..)

I dunno about forearms. All I get is the heavy bag, sparring, and pak sau.

:eek:

[IronFist]

Shins, forearms, knuckles... I mean, fundamentally, all you're doing is hitting a bone, right? I don't see how shins would be any different from the other two, except for the fact that knuckles are joints which could probably cause more complications.

The only thing with shins is that the leverage may be worse which might cause breaks. Like say you hit something with the middle of your shin. Well, all the part of the bone past where you hit to the end of your foot will want to keep going. Kind of like when a guy breaks a staff over his forearm, except in this case your shin is like the staff; the end of it wants to keep going. So I guess, from a physics standpoint, the lower on your shin you hit, the safer it would be.

Or, if you were wearing like weighted shoes or something, it would make this effect a lot worse. There'd be even more force trying to keep going after you make impact. Ouch.

[Pork Chop]

I think there are a lot more blood vessels and such in the legs than the arms. The arteries and veins running through the thighs are substantially bigger than those running through the arms if I remember my A&P correctly. It might be more of a danger in the legs because the amount of possible damage is greater. A clot that would normally have a problem flowing through the veins of the arms, may flow easily through the veins in the legs.

We need some doctors on this forum.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by BMore Banga
We need some doctors on this forum. I have enough field-work experience to be considered a gynecologist. Does that count?

[Pork Chop]

Man, and here I thought you were a proctologist.... :p

[Golden Tiger]

As for the bone density question, repetative stress will infact increase density. In a college physiology class, we reviewed a study done on the forearms of baseball players. They took density readings (osteo-something another) on the front arm vs. the back and it was shown that over time, the back forearm did increase in density. It was postulated that the impact of hitting signaled the body to reinforce the area of constant stress.

I will look and see if I can find the name of the journal that it was published in.

As for the decrease in pain, it is the scar tissue that covers the nerve endings that does it. Nerves don't just "feel" at the end. That is why you have to have a root canal to remove the whole thing, not just the tip.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by BMore Banga
Man, and here I thought you were a proctologist.... :p Nah. The wife has limits. :mad:

[Vash]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Nah. The wife has limits. :mad:

Didn't seem that way last time I came over.:eek:

[red5angel]

as for the shins and blood clots, whatnot. I've heard that most blood clots come from the arms or legs and find their way to the heart. The legs seem to have come up more then anything else and I imagine it' sbecause of the size of the vessels and the ability for your legs to sort of push blood through the body faster.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Vash
Didn't seem that way last time I came over.:eek: She lets me do Karate biatches in the @ss, just not her.

[Vash]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
She lets me do Karate biatches in the @ss, just not her.

You mean she lets them do you? As I recal, she was screaming "Take it, MK! Take it like you love it!"

Good times.

[IronFist]

So people get bruises on their arms all the time. how come people don't die from it all the time (knock on wood)? If it's so easy for the clot to make it to the heart, I mean.

So if the clot is moving, will you see the bruise move, too?

[red5angel]

I don't think it's easy or happens "often". however your dealing with an exception to everyday living here. Your purposelly going out and doing things on a regular basis that cause the conditions for a clot to form is all. My guess is that not all MT guys die from blood clots but it may be a risk factor. Sort of like not all skydivers die but form time to time one hits the ground without a parachute.

[phantom]

Does anybody know of any long-term effects of breaking boards and baseball bats with your shins? Thanks in advance.

[rubthebuddha]

So I guess, from a physics standpoint, the lower on your shin you hit, the safer it would be. aye, within reason. also, physics usually tells us that the object on the outside of a rotation is moving faster than something on the inside. thus, your foot is moving faster (covering more distance in the same period of time) than your knee is. mmmmm, inertia.


Does anybody know of any long-term effects of breaking boards and baseball bats with your shins? yes. ents will post a warning on your front door. once. then after that, your parents/spouse can put your ass under "write-offs" the next time they do their taxes. :D

[phantom]

I am sorry rubthebuddha, I do not understand. Could you please explain your answer? Thanks in advance.

[rubthebuddha]

ents are large, tree-like bipeds whose lives revolves around the herding of and caring for trees. they are spoken well of in the lord of the rings series and, doubtless, other fantasy lore. they're huge and strong (like a tree) and all that good stuff, and they don't take kindly to a person who cuts down too many trees.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by IronFist
So people get bruises on their arms all the time. how come people don't die from it all the time (knock on wood)? If it's so easy for the clot to make it to the heart, I mean.

So if the clot is moving, will you see the bruise move, too?

A bruise does not necessarily mean there is a blood clot there, and even if there is it needs to be in a large vein for it to be a threat. It is a condition called deep vein thrombosis or DVT and can also occur from lack of movement over long periods of time (like long haul flights). Clot movement in a vein is not necessarily fatal either - the clot can break up as it travels, and there are drugs available to assist this process.

So, a bruise on the arm is a sign that some of the local blood vessels have ruptured, but unless it has caused a clot in a large vein there should be no problem. It can become a problem if an existing bruise continues to sustain trauma as it could lead to damage of a deeper blood vessel and possibly DVT.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
aye, within reason. also, physics usually tells us that the object on the outside of a rotation is moving faster than something on the inside. thus, your foot is moving faster (covering more distance in the same period of time) than your knee is. mmmmm, inertia.

Oh s.hit, you're right. The lower on your shin you hit, the faster your leg is going. Good call.

Physics 0wns me

[rubthebuddha]

aye. see, physics does its cardio, which is why it can kick your box-squatting arse into next tuesday.

another concern is targets like elbers and knees which, even though they are closer to the body, seem to hurt about 800 times as much as punches and kicks. with this two, i think it's all about just plain ol' torque rather than centripital force.

[phantom]

Joedoe, what is DVT? Also, is there any way to treat it? Thanks in advance.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
aye. see, physics does its cardio, which is why it can kick your box-squatting arse into next tuesday.

rofl :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

:eek:

[joedoe]

Originally posted by phantom
Joedoe, what is DVT? Also, is there any way to treat it? Thanks in advance.

DVT = Deep Vein Thrombosis = a blood clot in a large vein. It is an called deep because the veins it can cause an issue in are usually located deeper in the tissue.

Usual treatment is to use blood thinners to try to break up the clot and prevent it from either reaching the heart or the brain. People are also usually advised to avoid any further trauma to the affected area as it can dislodge the clot and get it moving through the blood stream.

I don't know much more as I am not a doctor and I am only going off what I remember having to do when I had it years ago.

[Khun Kao Charuad]

Deep Vein Thrombosis.... Hmmmm....

It's occurring to me, what do you guys think of the possibilities regarding these blood clots not being a result of shin conditioning, but of getting caught with leg kicks?

You get nailed with a couple of good leg kicks, and your leg will swell like a balloon. Thai Boxers, over the course of their fighting careers, will take in excess of thousands of kicks to their legs. Maybe in some instances a clot develops and breaks loose, killing the boxer?

I know of two examples of big-name Thai boxers who just have suddenly died for no apparant reason.

Nanfah, a 5 time Thai Boxing Champ and International Boxing Champ as well. He fought in the Olympics the same years as Sugar Ray Leonard (in a different weight-class, I think). He dropped dead in his mid-40's of a heart attack. This happened back in the mid-90's.

Chatchai Paiseethong. He died in his prime. He was still fighting. I think in his late 20's. I don't know if he was a champ or not, but he was a very well-known and highly skilled fighter. Dropped dead of a heart attack in his prime. This happened just about 2 years ago.

I've heard all kinds of stories regarding the long-term effects of shin conditioning. So much of it is BUNK! Nothing to back it up.

ARTHRITIS: This has already been answered. The shin is not a joint. However, an argument could be made regarding your knees, toes, and ankles receiving damage that would lead to arthritis, but I believe that this is more likely if you constantly are kicking incorrectly.

SHIN CANCER (BONE CANCER): This is the one that really amazes me. I understand that shin conditioning causes damage to the bones, but it is minor damage that when it heals, makes the shin tougher. I've heard this rumor bandied about by a few different people. One person claims a friend died 6 months after beginning to train and condition his shins. I'm not trying to say that his friend didn't get cancer and it did not grow on his shins, but what I am saying is that the shin conditioning was not the CAUSE of the cancer. The friend must have been exposed to a carcinogen already. The carcinogen, and cancer, just happened to have attacked his shins. If you're going to get cancer, you're going to get cancer. Had it not been his shins, the cancer would have attacked him somewhere else.

CRIPPLING: I've never met a crippled Thai boxer. Both of my Muay Thai coaches are old. Master Danny is 57 years old, and Master K is 66 years old. I have been introduced to many other Thai Boxers who are well past their prime. They are just fine. They aren't confined to wheel chairs. They don't limp. They don't even walk funny. Heck, most of them are still quite physically active in a variety of sports and could still kick my butt!

REALISTICALLY: Martial Arts is training is not gentle. Whether you are training to learn self defense, sport application, or for exercise, you are applying great amounts of stress to your body to make yourself tougher. There are a variety of other pasttimes which are similar: Football, Rugby, Soccer, Hockey, Running, Cycling, Gymnastics. There is a risk in anything that we do. If you were to closely examine the hard contact sports/pasttimes, there is obviously going to be a greater percentage of injuries, illness, and death which can be associated with these activities.

Just train hard, train smart, eat right, and enjoy your life.

[joedoe]

Yeah, the chances of getting it from conditioning are pretty slim. I got a blood clot in a vein in the back of my knee - had a massive bruise there for weeks - but that was caused by spending too much time in front of my workstation. DVT from trauma would more likely be cause from taking a heavy blow rather than from the type of contact made in conditioning.

Interesting thoughts re. thai boxers dying young. You would think that a post mortem would have determined that a blood clot was responsible though wouldn't you?

[Khun Kao Charuad]

True about the post-mortem, but then, I never got any deets on the post-mortem. Just "heart attack".

But this kind of thing happens in almost all sports. How about that figure skater who was found dead in his hotel room a few years back? Sudden heart attack in the prime of his life and career!

When your number is up, its up.

[joedoe]

True enough