5 Ancestors / 5 Elders Question

[Ao Qin]

Could someone please help me to understand the difference between these styles (five elders / five ancestors) of kungfu? What is the difference between "Ngo Cho", "Wu Zu Quan", "Go Cho Kune", etc.? Is one from Doo Wai? Is this a seperate lineage from Chua Giok Beng?

Who are the five elders / ancestors? Ng Mui, Fung Do Duk, Pak Mei, Mew Hing, Gee Sim, Lei Ban San, Cai De Zhong, Fang Da Hong, Ma Chao Xing, Hu De Di, Li Shi Kai, etc.?

Many websites out there call the five southern families (Hung Lau Choi Lee Mok) the "five elders / ancestors" too - just to confuse the issue. Are some of these connected to the Honan Temple, and some to the Fukkien Temple? What are the timeframes?

Thanks for any help!

AQ

[joedoe]

The five ancestors of the art that is known as Ngor Chor Kun/Wu Zu Quan are not the same as the Shaolin five ancestors. The art of Ngor Chor Kun is a synthesis of the five arts (or ancestors) of monkey, white crane, lohan, Damo, and Tai Tzu.

As for the rest, I cannot really say. The Fillipino lineage of Ngor Chor Kun holds that Chua Giok Beng was the founder of Ngor Chor, however the Chee Kim Thong lineage traces Ngor Chor Kun back to around 1300AD to Bai Yuk Feng. I am not interested in getting into a lineage 'discussion' ;)

Hope that helps to clear up part of your confusion :)

[mantis108]

The Five Ancestors style is pretty much what Joedoe has outlined. It is of note that Damo is essentially the Qigong or Neigong internal aspect. It is not a style per se. Taizu and monkey styles were popular during Ming dynasty. Taizu Changquan is a northern long fist style although today there are people claiming a southern lineage of it. Lohan like Taizu Changquan "could" be link to the Henan Shaolin temple. White crane in some versions is called Yongchun or Wing Chun. The founder of the style used to be a "Shaolin" boxer in late Ming and early Qing dynasty. He and his daugther (the progenerator of the white crane style) were relocated to Wing Chun county in Fujian province. The daugther married one of her students and they produced many great students in the Wing Chun area. Years later their students' students includes Ng Mui, Chee Sim, etc...

Here's where the story gets interesting, Chee Sim had a few students including Hung Hey Kwoon (went on to create Hung Gar) and Wong Kun (a Hakka person). This Wong Kun might have been the teacher of Lung Ying's Lum Yum Tong (GM LYG's father). I think Kun (earth trigram) in Hakka dialect sounds like Kiu. Wong Kun taught at Hoi Fung at one time so the Hoi Fung Si in Lung Ying's history could quite possibly be him.

The other interesting part is of course is Ng Mui. It is said that the most advanced forms Fa Kuen Sui Ma, etc... were from her teaching and Chee Sim also taught Fa Kuen and wooden dummy. At one point of time, Lung Ying had a wooden dummy " form". But it would seem that it is a lost art in the style. :(

So it is quite possible that there is a link between White Crane (Wing Chun) and a whole lot of southern styles. The so called southern styles could also be link to northern styles. This just goes to say that Kung Fu is about evolution. The myths might yet have some truths behind them. But a lot more research needs to be done to verify things. So for now this is something to whet your appetite.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Ao Qin]

Thanks very much Joe Doe and Mantis 108! Lots of good info here.

I went for tea with a local Ngo Cho Sifu in Winnipeg, and wanted a bit of background information so I wasn't completely daft on the subject! We're going to swap notes, and see how close our styles are in theory and practice.

Cheers - AQ

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Ao Qin
Thanks very much Joe Doe and Mantis 108! Lots of good info here.

I went for tea with a local Ngo Cho Sifu in Winnipeg, and wanted a bit of background information so I wasn't completely daft on the subject! We're going to swap notes, and see how close our styles are in theory and practice.

Cheers - AQ

Cool man, let us know how it goes. Always interested in hearing about other Ngor Chor practitioners.

[BSH]

The 5 elders is a term coined by Jim Lacy, noted fraud. But there is a history told of 5 monks/nuns who escaped the destruction of Shaolin temple in the 1600's.

GM Doo Wai is the 6th generation Grandmaster of Bak Fu Pai which was the system of Fong Doe Duk, who along with Bak Mei, Gim Shim Shee (sp?), Ng Mui, and Mew Hing were the 5 who escaped.

But these terms have been used by many as revisionist history to define many questionable arts. So who knows what is real and what is fake anymore now. Who cares? The proof is in the results.

[cerebus]

From what I understand, Jim Lacy was a top disciple of GM Doo Wai and had the grandmastership of the 18 Daoist Palms system passed to him by GM Doo Wai. I've never heard of GM Doo Wai contradicting this or of anyone questioning Doo Wai's authenticity. Why do you consider Lacy to be a fraud? :confused:

[Dale Dugas]

Lacy has been unmasked as to what he truly is. Cerebus you must be on another planet or aligned with the handicapped man mentioned.

He is nothing, and has nothing to offer to the Chinese martial arts community. Jung Shee Doo Wai on the other hand has been recognized and has been teaching Kung-fu for years.

Any questions, feel free to email me or call me at 781-243-9711. I'll gladly eddify you on the situation.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[cerebus]

Wow. Didn't expect such a response. Well Dale, maybe I AM on another planet (Oakland, CA sure feels like it :p ).

No, I'm not aligned with Lacy, I've never met the guy. I just know about him from what I've read in books, mags and internet. What is there about him that's so terrible and secret that it can't even be mentioned on a public forum? :confused:

I guess I haven't been on the same planet as you, 'cause I was unware that Lacy had been "unmasked" (isn't it more Ashida Kim who's been "unmasked"? :p ).

You do give props to Doo Wai however. Does that mean that Lacy DIDN'T really train under DW? :confused:

I don't know you, so I'm not going to send you a personal Email and I really don't know why this can't be discussed publicly, but if you'd care to PM me, I'll keep whatever you say to myself. Thanks. T.

[Brad]

From what I understand, Jim Lacy was a top disciple of GM Doo Wai and had the grandmastership of the 18 Daoist Palms system passed to him by GM Doo Wai. I've never heard of GM Doo Wai contradicting this or of anyone questioning Doo Wai's authenticity. Why do you consider Lacy to be a fraud?

This is from cyberkwoon, and pretty much sums up everything I've ever heard about Lacy:

To all fellow martial artists:

My name is Dale Dugas. I had to post and let people know that Jim Lacy is nothing what he claims to be. He is not even a decent martial artist. No system claims to have hundreds of forms other than Shaolin-Do and other questionable styles which have been made up in the minds of these pseudo-master wannabees. Choy Li Fut has about 200, but they will tell you that no one person knows all of them.

18 Daoist Palms is but a form from within the Bak Fu Pai(White Tiger Style) Kung-fu of Jung Shee/Jo Si Doo Wai. It is most definitely not a system of martial arts that contains hundreds of forms.

The Bak Fu Pai system has been around in this nation for 40 years or so. Sifu Douglas Wong of Shaolin White Lotus is one of GM Wai's students as well as Terry Dunn of Flying Phoenix Meditations. The Flying Phoenix Meditations are from the Bak Fu Pai.

Anyone with half a brain can go to Jim's website and see how he moves. He claims to have studied for 10 years and became a Grandmaster. Pure fabrication on his part.

I have been involved with Jung Shee Wai for over 14 years. If using Jim's model for training to be a Grandmaster, than I should be a GM in my own right. But I am not, I am only a serious student.

18 Daoist Palms is nothing and never will be anything other than Jim having his extension students making up forms and recording them for him to sell to unsuspecting people.

You do not see him doing much of anything other than hammer away at coconuts and old clips of him doing rather low level Kempo on his website. If he is the Grandmaster that he claims to be, how come he cannot perform the forms which he purports to have?? Because he is cannot. He does not know any. He is a good example of a fraud. There are people who have taken him to court and have started litigation against him for fraud. Do not be taken in by him. He will take your money and give you nothing.

So Buyer Beware. Anyone interested in learning more about the authentic Bak Fu Pai system, please surf to: http://www.whitetigerkungfu.com or http://www.tigerkungfu.com or contact me at my email address through this site.

I thank you.



_________________
In Boston,

Dale Dugas


The sokeship council that he belongs to is pretty much there to give each other awards, and certificates. I know of 2(maybe 3) local teachers that have been involved with this group, and all 3 are defenite frauds(and 2 of them were in their Hall of Fame!).

[cerebus]

Interesting. Has Doo Wai ever spoken out about Lacy? If so, what has he said? I recall seeing photos of certificates (in one of Lacy's articles, I believe) which Lacy claims were from Doo Wai, naming Lacy as the current "grandmaster" of the 18 Daoist Palms "system" (if it is a system).

Also, if Lacy trained with Doo Wai for 10 years, how is it that he doesn't know any of the forms that Doo Wai teaches (as claimed by Mr. Dugas)?

[fiercest tiger]

hows things been bro, my phone line has been down so i couldnt really get online for a chat.

BFP is real

FT:)

[cerebus]

I don't doubt the authenticity of BFP. I just have to wonder at people claiming Lacy to be a fraud and saying that he doesn't know anything, but not giving any real specifics or facts to back their contentions up.

Lacy's site is very specific as to when he received his "Sifu", "Master" and "Jung Shee" titles from GM Doo Wai and shows the letter from Doo Wai naming him as the grandmaster of the 18 Daoist Palms system. As I've mentioned before, I've never heard of GM Doo Wai ever contradicting this. So far, it seems to be only other students who are calling him a fraud.

Can anyone shed more light on the matter?

[Brad]

Here's their forum, so you can ask directly. I know zilch about GM Doo Wai himself.

http://www.whitetigerkungfu.com/cgi-bin/datacgi/database.cgi?file=Forum&report=Topic&TopicID=0000&firstrecord=0&finalrecord=14

[Brad]

I decided to go ahead and start a topic on it over there.

[Dale Dugas]

Cerebus,

Lacy claims many things and they mean absolutely nothing. He has nothing to offer anyone but foolish garbage wrapped in pretty titles.

Many people claim to be taught by masters, anyone can claim to be the student of a certain master. Lacy was never a student of Jung Shee Doo Wai. Lacy is a con-man who has conned many people into believing he is something that he is not.

Jung Shee Doo Wai gave Lacy an Honorary certificate years ago for Lacy's helping of senior citizens in the San Diego area and the man ran with it and created a whole lot of trouble for Jung Shee Wai and the Bak Fu Pai Association. Lacy claimed to be a ten year live-in student of Jung Shee Wai who had become a grandmaster of style which does not exist. Sup Bat Mo Jung Pai is not a style. Sup Bat Mor Jung is a form.

Ten years and he is a grandmaster....Sounds like a load of cow fodder. I have been training in the arts for 27 years. I am not a grandmaster. One cannot name himself a grandmaster, at least not in the traditional sense.

Jung Shee Wai revoked this honarary certificate many years ago and disowned Lacy. Lacy simply ran faster and created a string of lies. He claims to have over 600 forms.

Dear god that is pathetic. Lacy claims to be able to teach all these levels of Iron Palm, Iron Vest, etc... He has no real training and understands not the concepts of Dit Da Ke in the least.

Anyone with some real training under their sash can see that he has nothing.

Go to his website and watch his pathetic vid clips. Please, the man cannot even perform the most simple of forms. He puts up Kenpo clips and even they are not so good. He has horrible form and lacks the understanding of sink swallow float and spit which makes authentic BFP as well as other southern arts work.

The man does not demonstrate forms as he stole material from Jung Shee Wai and then has a "student" (more like some duped cult member who will become immortalized forever...) perform the form and then record it for him to sell to unsuspecting people.

Why does this have to be broadcast all over the net for you to recognize?? It had been inhouse for years and had become public a few years ago. Lacy has been exposed on McDojo as well as Bullshido as the fraud he most certainly is.

Frankly, one has to assume you have not the brain matter necessary to see through the garbage white rabbit. Who ever you are....Too many little kids hiding behind made up names.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[Dale Dugas]

Brothers and Sisters,

Feel free to contact my via email, PM, or call me at 781-243-9711. I have had Jim Lacy call me after posting statements. So I can only assume he will call me up to convince me I am going to burn in hell for what I say.

Whatever Jim....

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. Well, you may very well be telling the truth (and Lacy does have one gosh-awful huge number of freakin' forms listed) but you're also an obnoxious azz.

Just because I don't keep up to date on what's happening in your organization/ little (VERY little) world, I MUST be downright stupid :rolleyes: . Yeah, right.

As for your calling me a "little kid", I'm 34 years old. I'm a former soldier, cop and corrections officer. I've competed in full-contact San Shou matches in Europe and hold black belt ranking in Japanese Karate and am working toward instructor certification in the Chinese Internal Arts.

The only one acting childish around here is you. I ask an honest question and suddenly your panties are all in a knot.

It's people like you, acting like this, that send students straight to Lacy and anyone else who may not be on the up and up. Again you've given no specifics about any of your claims.

All you say is basically "If you believe him instead of me, then you're stoopid!" gee, THAT doesn't sound childish.:rolleyes:

Or maybe YOU are the one who's the child hiding behind a made up name. Maybe you're actually Lacy's former underage child lover who is angry because he found another little boy to love and booted your lame azz out the door.

Whatever the case, after reading your post, I'd almost be ready to believe Lacy just because you're such an idiot. If you two are an example of the kind of students Doo Wai is putting out, I'm glad I never got involved with his organization.

[Dale Dugas]

Cerebus,

You really have read way too much into my posts. You asked about authenticity, and I gave you my opinion(which is rather well founded as I have known Jung Shee Doo Wai for over 15 years) I have nothing to claim but the truth. Lacy is nothing and has nothing to offer anyone except power-hungry people(i.e. fools willing to part with their money) who buy into his scam.

I do not want people to believe that my way of looking at lacy and his c r a p is the only way, just the one and only truth as I know the whole picture behind the man and what he has actually done to the BFP association as well as the harm done to Jung Shee Doo Wai.

I did give you specifics in one of my earlier posts when you asked. The man cannot back up his mouth when asked to. He has challenged many of us, then backed out as he knows if he crossed hands with any of the people challenged he would lose it all as he is not trained in any way, shape or form that could be considered real chinese martial arts training.

He is nothing but the washed up, ex-con, legally insane reject he portrays. Why do you seem to ignore what I have said and fire back and say that I have not given you examples of his obvious inablility. Add this to being totally written off by Jung Shee Doo Wai and you get bupkus.

I am a supporter of Jung Shee Doo Wai. I am also a friend who has seen Lacy give him great stress. No one deserves treatment like that. Jung Shee Wai has taught me many lessons on life. I applaud him.

Cerebus, you sink back down to your true level of awareness, and that is in the mud where you live with that garbage about my being Lacy's disgruntled ex-lover. Where in god's name did that come from??

Your frustrations are at their peak and you have to come up with slandering me as you cannot stand the truth? Geez, and you blather on about my being childish. Are you for real? Haa haa haaa..... These actions from a solider and cop/corrections officer? I think you need some help brother if every person who offers opinions are to be deemed disgruntled ex-lovers. You projecting their, Cerebus?

You claim to have fought in San Shou matches in Europe though you said you live in Oakland. Europe is a little far away to go fight in a match when they have such nice ones in this nation. Ohh, I get it. You can then say you fought but then it's harder to prove....Ahh I see you technique.

I have Black Belt rank in Uechi-Ryu Karate-do(certificate #2135) as well as training in Hung-Gar kung-fu, Jooklum Pai Tong Long Kuen, Shuai Jiao, Ba-Gua, and Taijiquan. I also practice Iron Hand and Iron Vest. I like the Jooklumpai very much. We seem to have similar background only I was a bouncer for many years rather than compete in tournies or contact matches.

Your number of posts also helps one to believe that you talk too much and train less.

You are the one who posted first and I responded. You obviously don't like what your hearing. Sorry about that, but it is the truth. Ask around and you will get the same answer from the masses. Though you will get the occasionally Lacy follower(which is so sad...)

You asked a question and it was answered. Others even showed you to where you could go to ask more about the situation. Obviously you would rather slander me than educate yourself to the truth.

No kiddies here. Just a lone man who does not take crap from unknown pseudo-men like yourself.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas
33 Richard Drive
Hanover, MA 02339
781-243-9711

P.S. I again invite you to respond to me via email, PM or call me. I have nothing to hide and list my address and contact info for all to see, do you?? Don't have to agree with me on this Cerebus, but name calling and insinuating someones sexuality is piggish, and insulting. Step up, or be branded the coward you show yourself to be.

[cerebus]

Mr. Dugas, if you go back and re-read this thread you will see that I never made any negative comments against you until you decided to go on about how I must be on another planet and lack "brain matter" just because I don't find this information to be common knowledge. You then go on to make further insinuations about me being a "little kid" and otherwise try talking down to someone who simply asked some honest questions.

You came across as if you were looking for an argument, so I figured if you wanna be an azz, then fine, I can stoop to your level for a couple of posts.

Not that you need to be informed of my background, but the San Shou tourneys I fought in were from 1990 (Milan internatinal tourney) to 1992 (Golden Dragon Cup European Championships in Rimini, Italy) while I was stationed with the 13th MP Company on Camp Ederle in Vicenza Italy.

Personally, I don't like having to get insulting with anyone. But if someone wants to get belligerent with me for no good reason, I'm certainly not going to just sit quiet & get sh!t on.

[cerebus]

Oh, and just to let ya' know, you should probably take down your personal contact info. That's a really BAD idea. In case you hadn't realized, the internet has more than a few dangerous whackos on it (some of whom I've had run-ins with). And you accuse ME of lacking brain matter? :confused:

[Dale Dugas]

Cerebus,

We can go back and forth about this. I apologize for insulting your level of intelligence.

Post less and train more,

Dale Dugas

P.S. Yeah I agree with you about some whackos, but have not an ounce of fear about that.

[BSH]

Dale, nice to hear from you again.

Cerebus, Dale is just a no-nonsense guy who is sick of Lacy and the damage he attempts to do to Bak Fu Pai.

If you want another opinion, I will tell you the simple fact that GM Doo Wai claims that Jim Lacy knows nothing about Bak Fu Pai and is attempting to live off of the lineage of the Grandmaster without any substantive knowledge.

I have never met Jim Lacy personally, but I have trained BFP for 9 years and can tell you that Jim Lacy does not move as well as a 3 month student of the art.

BFP is an internal art and there is no excuse for Jim's lack of ability to move. As we always say, the proof is in the results. If you can't see them, they aren't there.

[MasterKiller]

You might be interested in this thread:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=479279&highlight=bak%20mei#post479279

[joedoe]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
You might be interested in this thread:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=479279&highlight=bak%20mei#post479279

FYI, the Five Ancestors of Shaolin are different to the Five Ancestors of Ngor Chor Kun/Wu Chu Chuan.