Mantis and Wing Chun 2

[blackmantis]

I sparred my wing chun friend again today. Things were a lot easier due to the use of sideways footwork whenever a strike was delivered, i also managed to employ a few throws and trips which was nice. the great blocks of mantis also helped deal with the extreme speed of the wing chun chain punches. HOWEVER, when it came to ground fighting, i came off worse!

Any advice (other than don't go to the ground) from Mantis people?

S

[mantis108]

Fighting on the ground...

I posted the following regarding build the ground game with Mantis. Now, it is not "traditional" but it can be done using what Mantis styles have to offer.

<<<Ground Game:

1. Break fall and rolling
2. Throws and reversals
3. Ground grappling tech.
4. Escape
5. Finishing moves

"To effectively learn the ground game there are a few things to look at:

1) Break fall

Break fall is most basic skill in learning takedown. Most Kung Fu schools today are lacking in this area of training. Tainan Mantis showed me his routine for this which I think is every effective in training the break fall. The next step on the break fall is the ground mobility drills, which are to deal with the three ground positions.

Guard position - Leg raise
Side control - shrimping
mount - bridging

All these can be included in the break full training as warm ups.

[RE:] Upa drill (bridging and turn) in Judo or BJJ is similar to Tornado Kick, which I made a distinction from the Hurricane kick. Tornado starts on the ground (ie guard position) and up while hurricane kick starts in a stand up position (ie horse stance).

2) Throws and reversals

Quan (fighting form) such as the Dei Tanglang has planty of these. Jia (conditioning form) such as the 18 Lohan Gung can train the mechanics of throws and takedowns really well. All are excellent to enhance these aspects of fighting.

We should also learn takedown from the three ground positions as the reversal. Once you are being thrown or taken down, how do you quickly turn the disadvantage around? So we must learn that.

[RE:] Kao Da is a great methodology in Mantis to work with throws, takedowns and reversals. It also teaches the counters to those things. I also recommand looking into Judo and BJJ drills of sweeps and reversals. They usually begin from the ground, which is a very smart way to train. That way novices can work with takedowns and reversals without too much problem (very low injury rate). This will help them to see the dynamics of "a fight" early in their training. In my program, I have both Kao Da and the sweep & reversal drills on the very first day. My observation and my students' feed back are consistant. It makes the Kung Fu experience very enjoyable while working hard on these drills.

3) Grappling Techniques

Mantis has plenty of this offered as stand up grappling. It is important to note that some awkward stand up techniques might very well be sound concepts or principles on the ground. So study them carefully so that you can translate them into ground game. Also gravity goes hand in hand with the ground. If you can make use of this, you will come out on top (pun intended) of your ground game.

[RE:] The 8 shorts in Mantis certainly can apply well in an extreme close quartered combat situation (ie ground range) regardless of going for a knock out or submission hold.

4) Escape

This is most obvious for a striking style such as mantis. We don't really wanted to be there in the first place. Most people look to techniques on this one. If you rely on techniques to get you out you are too slow. It helps but an experienced grappler knows that quick reflects and response time is more crucial to the great escape. So drill takedown and get up as often and as quickly as you can.

5) Finishing moves

This was brought up from the above posts. We have to understand that at the ground range there are only so many ways a body can move because of the present of the ground. So in a way there are not so many choices of style specific techniques as finishing hold. Personally I wouldn't worry about "looking" like mantis finishing hold here. But work more so towards approaching the hold through the principles and concepts of Mantis. Hope I make sense here.

I could provide a drill if anyone is interested

[RE:] At the time I wrote this, the post was getting to long. Here I may add the following. IMHO a lot of the Kung Fu folks simply circumvented the whole ground game development issue by stating that all they need is the finishing moves (ie joint breaking, eye strikes, throat grab, etc.) Pain compliance tacts would be fine except that the reaction to those tacts is a highly uncertain variable. So it would be dangerous to assume that one would stop an intoxicated aggressor by breaking a joint or 2. Besides is the accuracy of an eye-strike 100% while under the effects of adrenaline rush? In other words many simply jump to the conclusion without having worked through the whole process. This is why the ground grappling folks being highly critical of the Kung Fu people's assumption of directly translating stand up grappling into ground grappling. But then again grappling is grappling whether one is stand or lying down. The same principles apply - everything has to be tight (all slacks taken up) and the flow of movements has to be very fluid. This really means that a program that has plenty of flow drills would help enhancing the understanding of ground game. I have been working on that towards that end with my Mantis.

6) Avoiding going to the ground with a grappler.

Personally, I don't find this mentality healthy because that means not facing a potential problem. I think a better approach is to understand balance through good stances and foundations even on the ground. Good balance, mobility and breathing should allow you to survive standing up or on the ground. Do not let fear to persuade you otherwise. Fear stems from the unknown. If you learn it you will take away the unknown; hence, no fear.

7) Climate training

Learn, practice and drill and Learn, practice and drill. Develop drills from the forms and practice them over and over again with live partners. Not just doing the forms. That's will translate into Kung Fu. I think we all are familiar with and understand this well. So I won't be long winded about this.>>>>

Mantis108

One thing that any seasoned grappler would tell you is that position comes first. Once you understand the hierarchy of positions, everything is relatively easy. They will also tell you that time spent on actual rolling with a resistive opponent is important. Actually, these things don't conflict with the mantis standup structure. So it's okay to develop your game including the ground IMHO. The only thing is where to find someone who has both experiences to share and able to sparr & roll.

Good luck.

Mantis108