Sex in Abu Ghraib Prison.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Hi All.

Interesting discussion over on E-Budo about the prison situation and happenings at Abu Ghraib.

Not political, rather more a discussion about the responsiblity of Troops when given wrong orders, etc.

Some good input from correction officers and military personnel.

Check it out:
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26461&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

[YinYangDagger]

Good thread, TJM. The reason it's not getting political (yet) is because these guys are professionals and have experience in the military. Here on KFO it's ALL about the politics and laying blame on the "evil" party (whichever one that may be at the time).

[jun_erh]

soldiers in general are paid thugs. the idea is not to **** them off

[SanSoo Student]

I think soldiers are generally responsible people, they are just trying to get by, some do it for education money. The most important thing to remember is that they are people just like us, they might seem like thugs because they sometimes follow inept commanders.

[rogue]

Xebs was there and still couldn't get any action.

[Meat Shake]

Originally posted by SanSoo Student
I think soldiers are generally responsible people, they are just trying to get by, some do it for education money.

A lot of them are really f*cked up also. I know quite a few people who enlisted that are less than moral. A friend of mine came back selling 900$ rolex's... real ones... in the box still... He got them because while himself and a couple of other troops and the squad commander were in a jewelry store, and they apparently didnt like the way the owner was treating them... So they beat the **** out of the guy and looted his store. This is a firsthand account from a soldier that I was given. He said that this type of **** is happening all over iraq, and on top of that, there is a serious problem with american troops raping iraqi women.

Edit:
"there is a serious problem with american troops raping iraqi women." Just because this hasnt been addressed on CNN doesnt mean it isnt happening for any of you who wish to remain in the dark as to the reality of the situation over there.

[red5angel]

there are some responsible soldiers, and there are some irresponsible soldiers. In my own experience there are a lot of soldiers who don't take the time to think about what they are doing.
In a war time situation you get caught up in alot of emotion. Imagine working a prison full of the kind of people who are out killing your fellow soldiers daily and you might get some insight into how these men and women sometimes feel. As humans sometimes do, one or two can light a fire under a few more and bad things can happen. War is an even more interesting environment because that causes a lot of stress those who have never been to war couldn't imagine.

[jun_erh]

look at Waco. They screwed it up, but for practical purposes it's a good idea to not join a cult of a guy banging 15 year old girls and playing bad hair metal. So if you don't want people to make you eat pork, try not to fire rpg's at them.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
there is a serious problem with american troops raping iraqi women.

These reports arise from fraudulent pictures being mixed in with the legitimate ones concerning Abu Ghraib. There's an article discussing this here (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38335); though, this is an early article and does note how widespread the pictures became (the were published in the Boston Globe; we all saw them when they were posted here; etc.).

[fa_jing]

Well, American troops rape each other, which is already a serious problem. I'm sure that some incidents of rape have occurred.

Edit: my statement has nothing to do with the AG prison or any of the doctored photos which were discussed. I meant generally.

[cerebus]

You're sure? Good to see you've made your mind up about it before-hand. There may very well have been some sexual assaults perpetrated by U.S. Military against Iraqi citizens, but until there is authentic proof of it, it's pretty asinine to go around saying you're "sure" it's happened. Dam good thing you're not a judge, court cases would be decided before they even happened. Guilty! Next case!

[YinYangDagger]

Hook me up with a Rolex, I'll take one!

[rogue]

Check it out (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&u=/ap/20040521/ap_on_re_us/prisoner_abuse_one_day_1&printer=1)

[YinYangDagger]

"there is a serious problem with American troops raping iraqi women."

yeah, this happens just about in every conflict; heck, back in the day the Egyptians used to rape the enemy male soldiers that were captured so they could destroy their morale and establish dominance...this is probably happening, and will probably continue to happen as long as wars are being fought, regardless of what country that they are from

[cerebus]

Again, I say that rape of Iraqi citizens by American soldiers may be happening, but until there is proof (other than the faked rape pics which are now known to be BS), people shouldn't make accusations based on what they imagine to be happening.

When we have the proof, then yes, prosecute the hell outta the bastids that did it. Until then, it's just speculation and rumor.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by rogue
Xebs was there and still couldn't get any action.


poor poor xebs.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by fa_jing
Well, American troops rape each other...

There's definitely abuse and sexuality issues in the military generally. It's just that neither America nor the Iraq situation is remarkable in this regard.

[YinYangDagger]

Also, let's add that American citizens, Canadian citizens, British Citizens, Australian citizens, French Citizens, etc rape each other as well....

[Mr Punch]

The facts that rape and abuse in war and even in the military happens and has always happened is no excuse. Hopefully those that are in charge in the army will continue to do what I'm sure most of them have been trying to do and continue to improve the framework which minimizes these phenomena.

[Mr Punch]

... But then, I've never really liked Rolexes!:D

[YinYangDagger]

The facts that rape and abuse in war and even in the military happens and has always happened is no excuse.

So there's a good excuse for it to happen during peace time and out of the military?

[Mr Punch]

Er, no.

Don't be facetious!:p

[YinYangDagger]

Me? Facetious? :D

The point I'm trying to make is that there are plenty of rapists lurking around, both military and civilian, both American and Non-American, and there's no excuse for any of it...but then again there's no excuse for a lot of sh!t people do, but they still do it.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Mat
The facts that rape and abuse in war and even in the military happens and has always happened is no excuse.

Certainly not.

But it does mean that this does not have some special relation to the Bush Administration, the Iraq situation, or America generally.

[Mr Punch]

Isn't that a silly point?!

I mean, it's obvious, and not in oppositioon to what I said in the first place!

Naturally I'm going from the standpoint that most people don't actually like, appreciate or condone this kind of behaviour, whether in uniform or out (except perhaps nurse's uniforms! :D ), and that while you can just sit back and say '**** happens' cos yeah, it does, and cos neither you nor I are in a position to do much about it, all I was saying is that I would hope that legislators were always trying to optimize the framework for reoprting this kind of things and punishing the offenders.

If they're not doing what I perceive to be enough, I'll take my vote elsewhere once every four or five years (yay! :rolleyes: ) or, more likely, eventually run for office.

You're just trying to start a fight with me cos I got better taste in **** watches than you! :mad:

What the hell time is over there anyway? No wonder you're not making any sense, if the missus has kicked you out of bed to sleep with the home-help again.

EDIT cos of cross-post: this was in answer to YinYangDagger.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Christopher M


Certainly not.

But it does mean that this does not have some special relation to the Bush Administration, the Iraq situation, or America generally. Firstly, partially agreed. I didn't claim that it did.

Secondly, I'm now gonna claim that it has a slightly special relation to those three things simply because it's what's happening NOW. So unless you're gonna say that because it's always happened it's OK to turn a blind eye, it is of utmost relevance how the Bush administration (as they are IN CHARGE!) deals with it, and therefore it is eventually of relevance to the voting public.

At some point, just like the individuals involved in this case should have done, somebody needs to say 'No more' or at least, 'Let's minimize this'.

[YinYangDagger]

Well, actually, Rolex watches are A LOT better than those "Japan Movement" things you call watches ;)

What the hell time is over there anyway? No wonder you're not making any sense, if the missus has kicked you out of bed to sleep with the home-help again.

It's 3:40 a.m. Was that supposed to be a derogatory statement? Oh well. I am off to bed now.

But one thing I will admit, the Japanese ladies are HOT. :D

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by YinYangDagger
It's 3:40 a.m. Was that supposed to be a derogatory statement? Oh well. I am off to bed now. There's no flies on you eh?! Do you want me to be more direct for your sense of humour's sake, ****wad! :p :D


But one thing I will admit, the Japanese ladies are HOT. :D Yeah, well mine is... wait, stop trying to distract me...

It's your turn at last is it? Goodnight!

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Mat
So unless you're gonna say that because it's always happened it's OK to turn a blind eye, it is of utmost relevance how the Bush administration...

It's not OK to turn a blind eye, of course; but it also seems to make little sense to associate these events with the Bush Administration. I did not mean to imply any such arguments from you; but they are common. For instance, there's no reason to believe a Kerry Administration would have a different impact upon such things than a Bush Administration - so it seems misplaced to vote Kerry over this issue.

It's unfortunately realist, but - measuring success in the political arena has to be done against the baseline for any issue. Measuring success against the ideal of perfection leads to all sorts of absurd conclusions - for instance, concluding that the proponents of women's suffrage were mysogenists because they did not advocate complete social equality *.

In this sense, there is an important difference between positive failing - that is, through some action or inaction causing an offense to occur; and negative failing - that is, through some action or inaction failing to improve upon extant conditions.

To use another example, a politician would be judged much differently if they did nothing on the issue of rainforest depletion than if they unveiled a plan to increase rainforest depletion. And a politician who unveiled a plan to decrease it would probably be judged environmentally-active even if some harmful depletion would remain after his plan.

Negative failings are still failings, to be certain - and in no way decrease the culpibility of offenders, nor the worthiness of public awareness and action. It is just that their impact upon democratic decision making should not be the same as for positive failings.

* that said, this kind of error is extremely common; particularly in proportion with the issue's historical age. In a way, this is another example of the ubiquitous historicist falacies - wherein historical events are conceived in terms of contemporary contexts. One pervasive example of this error, following the issue of mysogeny, is the judging of St. Paul as mysogenist because his views on women are less liberal than contemporary views - but in spite of the fact that they were considerably more liberal than views contemporary to him. Perhaps this illustrates the sort of reasoning I suggest we avoid.

[Chang Style Novice]

Excellent Susan Sontag article about the prison situation. (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/23/magazine/23PRISONS.html)

If you don't wish to register for the NYTimes, use the login name "kfmagazine" and the password "qigong"

[Mr Punch]

Good post Chris M.

Completely agreed.

However you're using a few too many shoulds and should nots for my liking! Of course, the American people will judge Bush's administration partly on its failure to adequately address the prison abuse issue (which because of its historical precedence and indivisible links to some part of human nature may be impossible to adequately address) and even maybe choose Kerry partly because of their perception of what he may do or may have done... which though not logical, is fine by me, cos I don't like Bush!

There is still relevance to Bush's performance in how he handles this. The baseline (which although harsh is black and white) is the military judicial procedure, training protocols and framework for redress of complaints. If he orders/initiates a review of this whole procedure he will be deemed (unfairly) as being too late; and anything else will be (unfairly) dismissed as not being enough. I say unfairly, but are human emotion and expectation factors which should be left out of decision-making altogether? That would be another unhealthy ideal.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Mat
but are human emotion and expectation factors which should be left out of decision-making altogether?

Yes. ;)

[rubthebuddha]

wasn't that just another "should?" :confused:

[Chang Style Novice]

This is rather offtopic for the thread, but I figure it'd be even worse to start another new offtopic thread on the Iraq war, so here it is.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1224075,00.html

Seems there's a strong possiblility that Chalabi is a double agent for Iran, and has fed the US false info that resulted in our taking out their worst regional enemy. Boy, nothing quite like being duped into carrying water for one of the "Axis of Evil" eh?

[Vash]

If proven true (is that really necessary, to be true, anymore?), that's gonna be a hooj issue come election time.


The CIA allegations bring to a head a dispute between the CIA and the Pentagon officials instrumental in promoting Mr Chalabi and his intelligence in the run-up to the war. By calling for an FBI counter-intelligence investigation, the CIA is, in effect, threatening to disgrace senior neo-conservatives in the Pentagon.

CIA vs NeoCons @ Pentagon: In a battle where there can be now winner . . . WHO WILL WIN?!

[Christopher M]

Since the air has been cleared for slightly OT comments, here (http://www3.europarl.eu.int/omk/omnsapir.so/debatsL5?LEVEL=DOC&NUMINT=3-037&FILE=20010516EN&LANGUE=EN ) is a beefy tidbit someone (thanks) forwarded my way; it's revealing wrt some of the nuances of French foreign policy in the middle east, and their opposition to America in this matter. Wheels within wheels, eh?