Mantis Biased?

[EarthDragon]

Hi to all my mantis brothers, question for you
Is it me or am I being biased about mantis? I am teaching in an Aikido academy on saturdays......for free of course, but anyways as I watch the class before me I see alot of holes in the applications of the style. Not just with the beginners but with the advanced stuff as well.

Also we had a Ishinryu BB there today, (tough guy, 6'3 260lbs rock hard hands and 28 years in karate) but lacked certain principles that seem basic to me.
Now I did study okinawan goju for 6 years so I am not unfamilar with the japanese styles , its just that they seem to fail in comparisan with the principles of mantis.

I was wondering how a BB could not understand side block mantis back fist to open the center, A basic technique?

Also every lock in aikido I had shown him the counter, none of which he knew!
So as I feel proud of mantis I was just wondering if it is that much better and sofisticated compared to others?
What's you take on this? or am I just in love ?

[Ronin BaBu]

Nope, its true, Mantis is invincible....
Unless its vs Jackie chan with snake style.

[Vash]

E_D

Was this character Isshinryu or Ishinryu? I believe the latter is an English derivation of the former.

Sounds like, if this character was real, his training probably centered on free sparring, as opposed to an application-of-sets + free-sparring curriculum.

As an aside, it has been my experience (as an Isshinryu Shodan Ho) that the counter to a large portion of, well, anything, is "punch in the face," or something to that affect. Of course, that's not ignoring the importance of Tuite, it's just utilizing something with a bit higher success rate.

Besides, why would you want to play into the opponents game? Why not go completely against the fundamentals of the style? It's a nice yin-yang thang.

[EarthDragon]

Roninbabu,
have you gotten my email? it would be great if you and your friend want to come train, we work out pretty hard and do lots of fighting application. call me if you are interested

Vash,
I just typed it wrong, I am a lousy typer..... ishinryu
The punch to the face seems pretty well dead on, this seemed to be the mentaility of his training, very hard and straight on.

I couldnt even get him to understand that you cant block a kick with a punch, though this is what he does. I tried to explain that its better to redirect than meet the force and showed him some tai chi application that circles under the kick and disrupt's the balance, and he said yea that's good for old people but I'm a fighter. mind you he is a tough man and thats his personality, he builds truck tires and liftes them all day long to the various machines so he has no Yin at all............

As far as playing his game, he was just a guest and I didnt want to try to change his ways, just show him the bigger picture as he trains with blinders on.

[yu shan]

I want to be careful with this, because I do have the utmost respect for the Japanese, Korean & Okinawan Arts. When good, these cats will f you up.

I have always done Gongfu clubs, teach part time. When I moved from Tampa to Nashville, I was with Wah Lum. Master Chan always gave me kudos by teaching this way. Minimal over-head, and no stress with bills. My first four years here I rented space from a TKD Teacher. Nice set up, seperate large rooms, I payed a small split. The problem came with there big ego and control issues. The one thing I have seen with TKD is ego. I cannot even understand this. We would be doing conditioning or two-person material kicking the living s h i t out of each other... we would look over and they would be kicking pcs of paper. The teacher I rented space from was always after me to get my numbers up. He wanted to make money. I was very happy with the 25 or so dedicated students. I have moved on... thank goodness. The one thing I`ll never forget. The TKD teacher laughing at me after his monthly testing. He always boasted about how much HE made after this stupid testing. His students could not fight there way out of a wet paper bag. The senior students of his have since left. Pretty sure after seeing what we did... opened their eyes.

BTW, the hardcore banging started when I departed WL and took up Pong Lai. Wah Lum had pretty forms, not necessarily all Mantis. I`m very happy and secure learning the Mantis Pong Lai offers. And I do think we have an edge, but we must respect.

[Vash]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
I couldnt even get him to understand that you cant block a kick with a punch, though this is what he does. I tried to explain that its better to redirect than meet the force and showed him some tai chi application that circles under the kick and disrupt's the balance, and he said yea that's good for old people but I'm a fighter. mind you he is a tough man and thats his personality, he builds truck tires and liftes them all day long to the various machines so he has no Yin at all............

As far as playing his game, he was just a guest and I didnt want to try to change his ways, just show him the bigger picture as he trains with blinders on.

Indeed, redirection of an incoming force is an awesome technique, and one which is rather prevelant in OMA sets (kata). I've noticed, though, that the bigger karate peeps tend to not mind taking shots (meeting force with force) as much as us little karate men do. Of course, it would be an awesome karate peep who was built like a tank and fought soft as cotton coughBubishicough).

Balance of power and and yeilding is the key, if one were to ask my opinion. Karate (Okinawan), so often noted as a power-dependent style, has just as much softness and finesse as is needed to come out of a confrontation safe.

As for not changing his game, I think that is a huge reason one should train with other styles. That new perspective, the fresh and different eye of another style can only serve to improve a martial artist's ability and further the artist's growth.

[Merryprankster]

I was wondering how a BB could not understand side block mantis back fist to open the center, A basic technique?

In wrestling, we always wonder how a BB could not understand a high-crotch corner turn single. A basic technique.

I popped in this forum just to see what was up, thread caught my eye, but to ask if what you are doing is just "that much more sophisticated" sounds to me like you are, either conciously or unconciously, limiting yourself to appreciating only one flavor of ice cream. You might like one BEST, but can you say chocolate is more sophisticated than vanilla?

It's not the flavor... it's how the flavor is made and presented...

[Tainan Mantis]

Thanks for stopping by Merry.

I actually spent time during the day reflecting open this thread and my past encounters.

I have noticed that other stylists who didn't have what I considered important skills could still fight(I keep redefining what is important).
I found this out by not getting into a discussion until after the fight.

Then, after you get beat up, or vice versa, you can think about what happened.

Every time I lose I recall that Wang Lang just got better after losing.

Also, It seems to me that PM is so broad that whatever technique the opponent used to do me in I can usually find in PM..
That is with the exception, in my training, with a lot of the ground fighting popularized by BJJ.

I was taken by a student of One of the Gracie's(Rolls) to meet and talk shop on one of my visits to the states.

There was no discussion. Just a friendly hand shake, no ego trip here, which was nice, and then the slamming.
He then spent time showing his training method for how he trains on the ground.

Since I lost, sorry guys, there was no use in me trying to show my stuff.
But it was nice to see that his method of takedown was just like mine, hey! what a small world.

So, ED, I think what would make this thread exciting is for you to just play with those guys and let us know what happened.
Not to educate them, that is tough unless you are a missionary, but yourself, and to a very small bit us too.

[Vash]

MP has taken the correct and submitted it with a high-crotch corner turn single. Or whatever the hell it is those unsophisticated rastler's use that crotch thingie for.

[sayloc]

Here is an email I recieved from a tae kwon do guy yesterday:


Hello,

My name is (edited) I am a 3rd degree blackbelt from ATA Taikwondo Academy. It is not definite, but, I may sign up for training at your dojo in the fall for a change of pace. It all depends on what opportunities approach me first as I am already a worlds champoin in olympic sparring and a two time state champion (once in weapons and once in forms).

Be sure to write back.

Name edited (end of Email)




I have training for over 20 years (which I do not consider a long time). I even spent a year in his style (my first instuctor taught me to try other styles just to find out what they do good or bad). I know it only takes a tae kwon do student two years to get a 1st dgree. They were glad to see me get stationed at another base because I just could not break the bad habit of punching to the head when there was an opening.

How should I reply to this guy?

I dont want to be rude but would rather give him good advice and help him grow as a person.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
Also we had a Ishinryu BB there today, (tough guy, 6'3 260lbs rock hard hands and 28 years in karate) but lacked certain principles that seem basic to me.
I could be wrong, but if the man is big and strong, I think he should capitalize on his strength and size. Make use of techniques in combat that will use his "6'3 260lbs rock hard hands".

However, if he had to TEACH someone who was 5'4 130lbs to use techniques that normally work great for him, and all he knew was how to use techniques that utilize his size and strength, he MIGHT not be able to teach the smaller and less powerful person how fight effectively. I could be wrong about this also.

One thing I believe for sure, and that is if someone is both BIG and STRONG (not weight-lifting strong, but punch-hard-in-the-face strong), they're gonna be more than a handful of trouble in a fight, for anyone.

[EarthDragon]

Everyone has brougth up some great points as I figured they would to this thread. It just seems that mantis has it all as tainan said, we even have low mantis in 8 step but mainly used to fight from a fallen position. but it seems as you know that certain styles focus on certain things but lack others, while mantis seems to cover it all.
More thoughts?

[mantis108]

This reminds me of the time when Tainan came to visit. There were 3 of us (Tainan, my student and I) practicing in my store. This drunk taxi driver, whom I know, came in. He told me before that he studies Karate. Anyway, he saw Tainan and my student working on a drill which involve open hand checking. He starting to say no no that's not right. " The closed fist is much better and stronger," he said. He proceed to show my student the right way. So Tainan and I retired to the side and left my student to take the "lesson". So now the drunk Karate guy keep punching like he would and my student just use the open hand to parry the punch. After a few try, the drunken Karate guy gave up but not convinced of the virtue of open hand. My student weren't convinced of the effectiveness of the closed fist effectiveness of the Karate punch because he had tasted Tainan's "jing" on his forearm which is all bruised up by the open hand check and didn't get Karate punch landed once on him.

The moral is that one can't possible convince anybody by simply working a technique over and over with simple move. It has to been done lively. It is like trying to convince some one that openning with the middle pawn somehow would allow you checkmate better and more effective; therefore, you redo the openning over and over again with exact precision. I don't think you are going to convince Bobbie Fisher that you are a better chess player and/or more effective pawn mover (pun intended) than him that way.

I have shown a TKD (older style one) BB stylist the way we punch and he was happy that the advice helped him. He told me that even his MA peer group notice a difference in the delivery speed, structure and strength wise. I have worked with amatuer league boxer and he was impressed with the chain punching. But then I showed some clips of mine to a boxing coach who is running the city's boxing program. He said you guys have something similar to the boxing stuff but the way you do things might get you hurt in the boxing enivornment. But the other stuff (ground fighting) he can relate to as he has some street fighting experiences (growing up in rough neibourghood) and he found that interesting. So you win some you lose some. My take is don't get intoxicated by mantis although it is very potent stuff. ;)

Mantis108

PS I agreed with MP and Tainan.

[Mediocrity]

I personally think it comes down to the person's body and movement style.

Rigid people might do better with things like Karate and the like, and others may do better with things that flow like Mantis.

I'm not articulate, I know.

I think Mantis does well against a lot of other styles because when I watch it (Wah Lum) it seems to be right there up in your face and you're practically a ghost, so close that you can count their teeth but all of the opposing force seems to go the wrong way and hard pressed to catch a Mantis. And even when the mantis is caught, it wont be held onto for long. with joint locks and scraping escapes and the like. It's kind of like being a puppeteer to the enemy's body.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Sayloc(4th road?),

I will reply for you...

Hi Johnny,
Our kung fu style is a change of pace from your TKD.
Nice to have a champion here stop by anytime.

regards...

Then(if it was me), when he came, in a nice friendly manner do your takedowns and stuff.

Although I say 99.5% chance you will never see him, but if you do keep us posted on what will become a juicy story.

[sayloc]

Thanks for the reply Tainan.

From reading some of the forums in seems that you have a very in depth understanding of the Mantis styles ( at least much more than myself). It is obvious that you have put many years hard work in your research. You dont seem to be afraid to share the info either.

I agree I will probably never see the TKD guy. If I do I will let you know what happens. Sayloc - 4/6

[yu shan]

I have seen street fighters in Tampa that are scary! (Y-Bor)

[Tainan Mantis]

4/6 got it!

I have seen scary librarians in Ybor.

But I sometimes wonder if a scary appearance is just a way of masking the fact that the inside is devoid of ferocious spirit.

I have met quite a few renunciates here, no MA skill, who fear death about as much as I fear a peanut butter sandwich.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis

But I sometimes wonder if a scary appearance is just a way of masking the fact that the inside is devoid of ferocious spirit.

This is true. Sometimes a person can come across as scary and ferocious, but it is just a way to scare people off. To avoid having to throw knuckle sandwiches. Some birds do this, some insects do this, fish, animals, and, yes, humans.

If I think scaring someone might prevent me from getting into a knuckle match, I'll do it. If I think backing down and appearing afraid and fearful will prevent me from coming to blows with someone, I'll do it. But sometimes, whether appearing fearful or fearless, the curtains will go up, and then... Well, its showtime...

[Mr.Binx]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Every time I lose I recall that Wang Lang just got better after losing.

I strongly aggree with this point of view. If you are never on the losing side, then you are obviously not learning anything. I began learning to fight at age 18 when a friend showed up to work after boxing practice with his gloves. He was a regional college champion in the local circuit. I had never fought before and I asked him to show me some moves in the parking lot. He was being nice and playing with me at first. Shortly thereafter I told him to stop being a big softy and hit me. A good five minutes later he told me didn't want to press any further as I was already the proud of owner of a swollen cheek, a bleeding eyebrow, and a split lip. On a daily basis I would press him to spar with me. Every day I received fewer wounds and he would press harder. After roughly two weeks of constantly pressing him to spar with me on a daily basis I successfully incapacitated him with a solid shot to the nose and drew blood from both nostrils with the very same techniques he had used on me in the days previous. I was ecstatic with joy at this minor victory. Even on the days that I was getting pummeled and couldn't see straight, I was enjoying the experience. Regardless, win or lose, I was learning something. Those friendly and humbling boxing lessons taught me much that I still carry with me today regarding the combined usefulness of persistence, patience, and passion. I have enjoyed numerous defeats by various stylists on similar terms since then. Since I began training in tanglang, I have ceased sparring as I decided that it would be counterproductive to learning. I'm afraid that I would default back to old ingrained reflexes of my purely instinctual fighting style that would hinder and possibly damage my understanding of the art. I will enjoy the day when I can restart my old hobby of friendly, full-contact sparring... though it will most likely be many years from now when I have reached a comfortable level of reflex and proficiency in my tanglang. If not for the numerous defeats of Wang Lang being incessantly beaten by his elder brother then northern praying mantis kungfu may have never come into being and I may not have had the golden opportunity to be on the unexpected path I am on today.

Edit: I didn't realize I had typed such a lenghty post until after I hit submit. My apologies for the long-winded rambling. ;)

[EarthDragon]

Wang rui xuan,
I agree with what you said, however I feel as though if you were to have two even matched fighters with the exact same experience and weight that the mantis would prevail.

I dont like to think this way and show favortism towards what I have, kind of like my bike is better syndrom. Thats why I asked others opinon's on this matter. I am just speaking about what I see.

I have bounced for many years at some pretty tough bars and have seen first hand the "tough guy act" and you guys are right the biggest mouths and the "come across tough guys" are the first to lose.
I knew a guy who looked like a long shoreman with a big square jaw and when he walked he had to duck under doors, I thought that guy must be tough. When I got to be friends with him he told me he had only been in one fight and lost, and that some little Italian guy beat him up.
I thought this was strange but he told me most people look at him and are afraid to fight him so he never had to and doesnt really know how.

[Ronin BaBu]

I have to disagree with the 'its all in the person' claim.
Even if you have the best fighter in the world talent wise, if you show him a fighting stance with hands behind his back, he will get hit in the face reguardless of his skill... why? because his hands were down.

Like E.dragon said.. if you imagine two perfectly equal guys physically and mentally... it comes down to style. I don't like the sound of 'mine is better than yours' ... but there must be some reason we're all in mantis kung fu.... we feel its the best. And for the most part we're right ;)

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by shanghai_kid
That's true.

Next I'm going to start a "Who would win, Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan?" thread.

I would have to kill you,....A LOT!!!!!
:D

[Frogman]

:D
If you have two perfectly equally skilled fighters in every way go at it, they would still be fighting until one of them falls a sleep. This brings back two experiences I had back in my judo days under Kerry K. I watched two of the top students go at it for what seemed like two hours. One would try to make a move the other would counter. Finely Kerry told them he was tired of watching them make out and if neither one of them was going to do anything productive he was stopping the match. The second experience was when I went up against one of these guys on Rondora night, which is just take downs. This guy was throwing me around like a rag doll. I kept trying the same move, (limited arsenal) something I had seen while watching an Ed O’Malley class. Grad both shoulders then pull one in, as you push the other out, hook the forward leg and twist the shoulders back. When your opponent tries to step back you have their leg and all you need to do is fall on them (in theory). Well I tried and tried and tried again. After getting dropped a dozen times I finely got him. Only the one time but I could see it on his face. He was super cool but that was the last time he was going to let me take him down. I had been beaten pretty bad but felt great just because of that one take down. Thanks, Ed. So truly which is it, technique, spirit, perseverance, perhaps luck.

RibHit
fm

:cool:

[Frogman]

Oh ya.
Jackie would just out run Bruce….;)

RibHit
fm

[mantis108]

You gotta be kidding! Jackie may out filp good old Brucy but out run a man who loved running? Nah... :D

BTW, Brucy thought that Jackie was a good stunt guy. As they had worked together b4. ;) so it's all round hand shakes.

Mantis108

[Frogman]

108, thanks for the insight. I just said that since in most of his movies Jackie will try to get away from the bad guy or who ever. Yes flipping jumping siding or even falling off the side of a building is more his style. I didn’t realize they had work together?? Cool stuff, would like to see some of that action.

RibHit
fm
:cool:

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

ED
Yep, you're biased. Substitute Choy Lay Fut for Praying Mantis and you sound just like a CLF player. In fact just about every style says the same thing.

When you're after mice, it doesn't matter if you use a white cat or a black cat.

[EarthDragon]

Ha Ha , hua lin you may be right!

I have found though that mantis seems "so far that is" to have all the answers. I have found lots of holes in other systems that mantis seems to cover. But then again maybe it's just me.

I enjoy sharing techniques with other players and bounce different angles of each other, however it always ends up that the other guy says wow that seems more effective than what we do. The only system that I have seen that does things more effeciently is Tai Chi. I dont think anything compares.

[EarthDragon]

Actually all styles but specifically Wu.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
Hi to all my mantis brothers, question for you
Is it me or am I being biased about mantis? I am teaching in an Aikido academy on saturdays......for free of course, but anyways as I watch the class before me I see alot of holes in the applications of the style. Not just with the beginners but with the advanced stuff as well.

Also we had a Ishinryu BB there today, (tough guy, 6'3 260lbs rock hard hands and 28 years in karate) but lacked certain principles that seem basic to me.
Now I did study okinawan goju for 6 years so I am not unfamilar with the japanese styles , its just that they seem to fail in comparisan with the principles of mantis.

I was wondering how a BB could not understand side block mantis back fist to open the center, A basic technique?

Also every lock in aikido I had shown him the counter, none of which he knew!
So as I feel proud of mantis I was just wondering if it is that much better and sofisticated compared to others?
What's you take on this? or am I just in love ?

Seems like a bias. Try sparring with them, especially the isshin guy, if you haven't already. Also, try to make a habit of sparring with good exponents of other styles.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yu shan
I want to be careful with this, because I do have the utmost respect for the Japanese, Korean & Okinawan Arts. When good, these cats will f you up.

I have always done Gongfu clubs, teach part time. When I moved from Tampa to Nashville, I was with Wah Lum. Master Chan always gave me kudos by teaching this way. Minimal over-head, and no stress with bills. My first four years here I rented space from a TKD Teacher. Nice set up, seperate large rooms, I payed a small split. The problem came with there big ego and control issues. The one thing I have seen with TKD is ego. I cannot even understand this. We would be doing conditioning or two-person material kicking the living s h i t out of each other... we would look over and they would be kicking pcs of paper. The teacher I rented space from was always after me to get my numbers up. He wanted to make money. I was very happy with the 25 or so dedicated students. I have moved on... thank goodness. The one thing I`ll never forget. The TKD teacher laughing at me after his monthly testing. He always boasted about how much HE made after this stupid testing. His students could not fight there way out of a wet paper bag. The senior students of his have since left. Pretty sure after seeing what we did... opened their eyes.

BTW, the hardcore banging started when I departed WL and took up Pong Lai. Wah Lum had pretty forms, not necessarily all Mantis. I`m very happy and secure learning the Mantis Pong Lai offers. And I do think we have an edge, but we must respect.

I hate when sitations like that occur. The club I train at is shared by kenpo, aikido and capoeira classes, in addition to our thai boxing, bjj and judo. We all get along great. a few of the kenpo guys cross train with us on occasion. IMO, that's how it should be.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
but it seems as you know that certain styles focus on certain things but lack others, while mantis seems to cover it all.
More thoughts?

See? bias is evident here.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
Wang rui xuan,
I agree with what you said, however I feel as though if you were to have two even matched fighters with the exact same experience and weight that the mantis would prevail.

I dont like to think this way and show favortism towards what I have, kind of like my bike is better syndrom. Thats why I asked others opinon's on this matter. I am just speaking about what I see.


Don't just speak on what you 'see'...and obviously our oppinions aren't gonna change yours - if you think that mantis would prevail over other styles, all other attributes being equal, find out. Don't see it, feel it...

[Vash]

Originally posted by SevenStar
The club I train at is shared by kenpo, aikido and capoeira classes, in addition to our thai boxing, bjj and judo. We all get along great. a few of the kenpo guys cross train with us on occasion. IMO, that's how it should be.

Dang skippy.