Wing Chun? how do you get out of this??

[william]

Hey people,

This is not a diss, I do kung fu myself, but I was just browsing this site and found a clip of a Wing chun guy in a UFC fight.

Thought it might be interested but unfortunately thought it might end this way.

If you scroll down you will see the one i mean , I couldn't get the other wing chun clip to work on my computer.

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=1&min=10&orderby=titleA&show=10

How do you get out of this, coz it really does seem to be once you are on the floor its over!


Check out some of the other stuff too its quit cool.

W

[Merryprankster]

Step 1: Find a legitimate groundfighting instructor
Step 2: Practice groundfighting with an emphasis on escapes and stand-ups
Step 3: Find a wrestler. Practice takedown defenses on him until it's hard for him to take you down. *

*Steps one and three are often the same person.

En-yoy.

[Ernie]

M.P.
if i may add to your very well put list

1. don't disrespect the ring or yourself by getting in there totally out of shape

2. don't lie to yourself , or hang out with people that are lieing to you

3. find new friends that will slap the $hit out of you for lieing to yourself and disrespecting yourself


on a positive not at least he got in there , who's to say i wouldn't have ending up the same way .

well maybe not i would have at least ran away and made him chase me


:D

[Da_Moose]

imho,

If you know you're against a grappler, don't keep your legs so close together, while it helps mobility, it does nothing for your stability. I would offer that the leg that was grabbed, his right, should have been kicled back the second he felt it touched to prevent the grab. That seemed to be what got him down. Once down, he ain't getting out with another person sitting on top of him, not in the ring with rules at least.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Does anybody know the VT fighter (Asbel Cancio) from the video clip? It would be interesting to hear; his reflections on the fight, how his training has changed, (did he quit VT?) etc.......

I'd also love to hear a firsthand report from Wing Chun fighter, Kasim Khan, who fought (and lost) in a recent K-1 event in the UK. His report of; what went wrong, how would he train differently, etc......

Does anybody here on the forum know, or train with either of these guys?

[Gangsterfist]

Can you elbow in UFC? A nice dropping elbow to that guys head while he goes for the double leg take down could have turned the tables. However, that is if he could have pulled it off.

However, just like ernie and MP said, you just gotta train against it to be good at it.

Learn the basics of grappling, learn shrimping, the guard, the mount, alligator crawls, going for the thumb (the weak point) so on and so forth. The best person to teach you these things would be a grappler.

[Miles Teg]

Hey Gangster
I know in the old UFC you could definitely elbow. YOu mean to the back of the head right? That would seem like it would work but there have been so many UFC fights where this has been done successively while the grappler still keeps charging foward and eventually takes them down. Sometimes the downward elbow throughers are putting a significant amount of body weight into it while dropping but it still doesnt work.

It would seem that this area can take a good few hits. That or the fact that you are being moved backwards takes all the power out of your moves. Im sure Ive seen UFC fights where the elbower is not moving back and still cant rock the grappler though.

[Merryprankster]

If you know you're against a grappler, don't keep your legs so close together, while it helps mobility, it does nothing for your stability. I would offer that the leg that was grabbed, his right, should have been kicled back the second he felt it touched to prevent the grab. That seemed to be what got him down. Once down, he ain't getting out with another person sitting on top of him, not in the ring with rules at least.

Out of curiosity, not out of a desire to start an argument, who much do you practice takedown defenses with somebody that really knows what they are doing? I'm asking because this is one of those answers that makes me think maybe you don't have that much experience in this very specific area.

[anerlich]

is pretty overrated from what I've seen (and experienced). The angle for delivering a dropping elbow on a good double leg is not conducive to putting weight behind it. You can get excellent elbow shots off a snapdown, but that position and that of someone hitting you with a good double leg are very different.

There are guys that can throw a jab - double leg as fast as most can throw a jab/cross - quite scary when you see it.

I've got a classic photo from Grappling magazine of Sean Sherk attempting a double leg on Matt Hughes and eating MH's knee full in the face. I open the mag to show someone, and people across the room go "Owwwww!"

Hughes won the match, but it went the distance.


Once down, he ain't getting out with another person sitting on top of him, not in the ring with rules at least.

Leaving the guard out of the equation, the top person will have the advantage irrespective of rules or lack thereof. Anything the underneath guy can do, the top guy can do with greater leverage and choices, and with gravity working for him.

[Edmund]

Wing Chun sucks.
Can't punch. Can't kick. Can't wrestle.
That site proves it.

The kyokushin guy was hit with a stack of punches that did nothing.

That wrestler took the WC guy down easily.

[Miles Teg]

Edmund
Are you talking about that W.C guy that ran around chasing a Kyokushinkai guy in a Karate tournament with chain punches?

That guy came from another planet dude.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Edmund:

The following is taken from www.tonyblauer.com

" A lot of martial artists just don't get it. I wrote something recently that was featured on THE NEW FULL CONTACT called "It's Not Real Until You Experience It". I was so tired of these electronic warriors spewing their paper tiger crap about all these fighters in the NHB, who will win and why? Was it fixed or what?...These guys have no idea how tough these fights are and how tough these fighters are - just to step into the ring requires an act of courage and faith. I'm off on a tangent again. I just get so aggravated with the human condition sometimes. Fights aren't won by a 'style'. Royce won - not Ju Jitsu. Maurice won - not Kick-Boxing. Vitor Belfort won - not Ju Jitsu. BOXING didn't beat Mike Tyson last year - Holyfield beat the crap out of him. People have mistaken the Trademark for the truth. It's not about style. Many warriors have tried to warn us. Bruce Lee tried to tell everyone, but that fell on deaf ears. Tenacity, will, heart, fear management, courage, audacity, these are warrior attributes that are not bought or handed out - they are earned, nurtured and developed by time and experience alone. That's the root of my commitment to a behavioral system that works on the warriors inside's, recognizing that the psychological and emotional development of the self-defense exponent or modern warrior is tantamount to anything physical they can develop."


Some styles might have more answers to certain areas of combat than other styles...but at the end of the day - IT'S THE INDIVIDUAL FIGHTER, NOT THE STYLE, THAT WINS!

Just when you start thinking that Wing Chun is crap, for example...is exactly the moment when some really kick-ass Wing Chun fighter might be walking down your street.

Like the man in the quote says: It's the warrior's insides - meaning his emotional and psychological development - that will determine how good he performs physically in a real confrontation.

By the way - I just discovered Tony Blauer yesterday, when my kung fu brother Delroi Flood, (who lives and teaches Traditional Wing Chun in Bermuda), sent me some tapes that includes some of Blauer's actual fighting strategies, tactics, and psychological training videos.

Thanks Delroi...Blauer is very good!

[Edmund]

I wouldn't call them chain punches but yes, that is the guy I am talking about.



Originally posted by Miles Teg
Edmund
Are you talking about that W.C guy that ran around chasing a Kyokushinkai guy in a Karate tournament with chain punches?

That guy came from another planet dude.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Some styles might have more answers to certain areas of combat than other styles...but at the end of the day - IT'S THE INDIVIDUAL FIGHTER, NOT THE STYLE, THAT WINS!


Very good point, Victor. I find that I am in agreement.

I shall reword my post:

Wing Chun guys suck.
Can't punch. Can't kick. Can't wrestle.
That site proves it.

The kyokushin guy was hit with a stack of punches that did nothing.

That wrestler took the WC guy down easily.

[Miles Teg]

Stop stirring

[Edmund]

:)
It gets better replies.

[sokuto]

Edmund - thanks for joining in on this thread. Your imput has been very helpfull.

Nothing like a troll to help out with a conversation!

[Phenix]

Originally posted by william
Hey people,

This is not a diss, I do kung fu myself, but I was just browsing this site and found a clip of a Wing chun guy in a UFC fight.

Thought it might be interested but unfortunately thought it might end this way.

If you scroll down you will see the one i mean , I couldn't get the other wing chun clip to work on my computer.

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=1&min=10&orderby=titleA&show=10

How do you get out of this, coz it really does seem to be once you are on the floor its over!

---------------------------------


W


you dont have to get out of this. you dont want to get in to this.


I, that WC guy has a Blind Zone between knee and solar plexus which power cannot be generated effectively.
A question need to be asked is do you train how to make this blind Zone not blind? why do you experience a power black out?

2, The WC guy has only partial mastery in his own body handling, thus, his strenght is only at the middle and middle high punch level. outside of this there is not much control. Thus, when goes to ground, one doesnt know what to do. why do you stuck in the state of tunnel vision? and lost your alertness?


This is a result of partial wingchun training. WCK cant be like this in 1850. where one is fill with lots of blind zone and lost of alertness. Remember the characteristics of WCK? 1, can generate short distance power unconditionally 2, based on Sensing . so, with 1, how come there is Blind Zone? with two, how come there is tunnel vision? the answer lays here. IMHO.

it is not what others uses or who are they. it is about do we perform? do we know our stuffs?

There are reality one has to face such as in general WCner having a problem of awkward in the middle lower and lower upper range in applying technics. There are misconcept and pre-judice about all fight has to going down to ground. IMHO,

IMHO, get those awkward of applying power blind zone away, then see what is what and how to deal with it. WCK is about methodology not just a method. Get your spine and power to be not awkward in all condition. then see the reality from there. Why believe in other's propaganda and lost your own view? You dont have to choose between Coke and Pepsi. You can drink spring water and that is better for your kidney too. why listern to those coke and pepsi choice makerting? make your own judgement after you know your body.

[Gangsterfist]

FWIW, from what I have trained against single and double leg takes downs (and yes they were practiced against a wrestler, someone who wrestled college varsity) were dropping elbow, gum sao, knees, and fly like a bird (jumping steps back)

You could also spread your legs for stability and try to counter the take down. However, my goal was always not to go the ground, so I trained to keep my butt off the ground. Now, before anyone jumps on me for this, I know that I won't be able to always control that reguardless of how good I get. I understand that, and I also train to get back on my feet when I get taken down.

The dropping elbow generates power from a torque like motion. Hold your arm out like a biu sao, drop the elbow and rotate the arm as it drops slightly so your hand is facing towards your face. That can be a real effective move and generate lots of power. If you can pull it off.

The gum sao can be used as well, but you have to have positioning and foot work involved. That guy on the video had really bad foot work. Perhaps if he had angle stepped towards the center with a gum sao, perhaps it could have turned out different. But enough of the "what ifs"!

The knees, kicks, etc are pretty self explanitory.

I have also trained things like grab the head and twist, because where the head goes the body goes. I can't say that I have trained it a lot, but its still an option I guess. Its also dangerous, because you can seriously hurt someone that way.

Anerlich-

You really think a good elbow would not work? Like to the top or back of the skull? I can't say I have elbowed someone there really hard in the past, but I know they can be fight enders.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist

You really think a good elbow would not work? Like to the top or back of the skull? I can't say I have elbowed someone there really hard in the past, but I know they can be fight enders.

if you get him before your C o G got perturb, your elbowing work. If he had perturb your C oG even as slight at possible while you elbowing. NO, it doesnt work.


nothing will work if you never master the middle lower and lower range zone operation.

To say an elbow would work or not is similar to talking about waving one's hand and one will float in the water.
There are dynamic CoG moving, Body limbs coordination, incoming impact...... the bottom line: Do you exprience in those zone of operation? first those zone, then methodology which work in those zone. then method. and an elbow is just a method--cant tell much.

[anerlich]

You really think a good elbow would not work? Like to the top or back of the skull? I can't say I have elbowed someone there really hard in the past, but I know they can be fight enders.

A *good* elbow *might* work, but probably not to the top of the skull. More to the base of the skull and the cervical vertebrae.

That's more than likely a fight ender, IF you can get the angle right and be properly grounded to drop it. It requires you do drop your entire bodyweight on the guy, which is impossible if you are already being picked up, which is what I think Phenix alluded to somewhere in all those words. Once the guy has closed and has his shoulder in your hip, you are trying to bend your trunk and hit him with only the weight of your upper torso, which is unlikely to have the same affect.

Against someone who tries a skillless tackle (bent over at the waist, arms extended, no penetration step, etc.), you might be able to get elbows ... a good technical double leg does not really expose the back of the neck for more than an instant at best, and will be set up with strikes or feints in punching rather than from six feet away to an opponent standing "en guarde" like in all the "anti-grappling" demos on the internet, all of which are done against "takedowns" which have little or no resemblance to a technically correct double leg take down. Other takedowns such as the low ankle shoot offer even fewer opportunities to counter with strikes. The only way you'll elbow a guy doing that will be AFTER sprawling.

The problem with elbows, uppercuts, knees, etc. is that against a skilled takedown artist the window of opportunity is small, and the consequences of failure fairly dire. Moves such as the sprawl and crossface, and wizzer, are much more forgiving, have a greater margin for error, and are much higher percentage IMHO. And you can still elbow the guy after if you want to - or stand back up and run away.

[Gangsterfist]

Yeah, I guess now that you mention it, and thinking back on it. I do sprawl a lot when trying to get taken down and try to maintain being on top if I do go down, then usually go right for a limb, or a choke.

The problem with elbows is you can really hurt someone with them, so I don't practice them on my fellow brothers/sisters when sparring. So, its hard to gauge how effective they really are. I know from previous experiences being elbowed in certain places it has hurt a lot.

I know and agree with you about kicking and kneeing. A lot of times grapplers want you to do that and will grab that limb once you give it to them.

I have successfully used the gum sao motion when people go after me with a low double/single leg take down. Even then timing is crucial. You have to knock them off their center of balance to make it effective.

In the video I think the wing chun guy should have at least thrown some punches at the guy when he got taken down to at least buy some time. Also, I think he should have shrimped and not allowed the guy to gain immediate control over him.

Its already been said, if the wing chun guy would have had some basic knowledge and training of grappling he would have not lost that bad.

Anerlich-

You do BJJ along with your wing chun correct? What techniques do you find useful when defending against the charging bull take down stuff?

[Edmund]

You're welcome Sokuto.

As for most of these ideas for counters.
The simplest basic idea is not to let the guy change levels.
When he ducks down and the WC guy doesn't, he has an opening.

If the WC guy matched his level change, he would be able to use his hands much more effectively to prevent the guy from penetrating. The WC guy really only grabbed one of the other guy's arms after the guy was in on him and it was high up under the armpit which did not prevent the wrestler from using that arm much. And the other arm was free to attack the leg to finish the takedown.

You shouldn't attack with knees or kicks unless you can land the full power of the strike. That means you have to be balanced and the opening must be there.

Really the WC guy didn't know what he was vulnerable to. It was the early days of UFC. Which is why he was suprised.
It's possibly the stupidest clip to even discuss because of this.

Quite simply Victor said it best:
Some styles might have more answers to certain areas of combat.

Wrestlers have more answers to defending takedowns.
WC people have more answers to defending against other WC people. They can't win karate competitions and they can't win the UFC.:p

[foolinthedeck]

its interesting that most of us would agree that what was missing from the wing chun guy was footwork and zoning, not the lack of an elbow strike.

and yet most of the responses seem to have concentrated on this aspect.

Isnt it better wing chun for us to work on the basics like zoning as phenix points out or stance rather than to try to invent what the guy should have done?

i could say, oh he should have used the five point palm to the wrestlers chest la la la...

from my point of view:
the way the wrestler came in low and strong, like a lineback or an all black in rugby, hard to stop but not impossible - watch any professional world class rugby match and you'll see people upended and still going strong.

also, the wing chun guy wasnt wearing any shoes!!!! all the wrestler had to do was stamp on his feet!

[TheBlackDragons]

I can't believe that Karate guy wooped the wingstun fighter


The wingstun guy should of Battled more ineligently
he seemed insecure The Karate guy seemed much
more confident and reserved ,, also i detected o power
from the wing stun guy ,I won't judge the whole system on just this Bought but it kinda makes you wonder why Bruce lee altered it because he was not happy with ceartin aspects

[TheBlackDragons]

I can't believe that Karate guy wooped the wingstun fighter


The wingstun guy should of Battled more ineligently
he seemed insecure The Karate guy seemed much
more confident and reserved ,, also i detected o power
from the wing stun guy ,I won't judge the whole system on just this Bought but it kinda makes you wonder why Bruce lee altered it because he was not happy with ceartin aspects

[Phenix]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
its interesting that most of us would agree that what was missing from the wing chun guy was footwork and zoning, not the lack of an elbow strike.............



speaking about Zone and .....etc.. misc...


There are two elbow position for WCK technolgy.

One is that so called immoveable elbow position. like the guy in that clip is doing.
But the zone of this elbow position is for a further range .....it becomes a part of problem instead of solution when the range is close in.....

There is another elbow position for the close range... and that was not usual used or train in......

There are vertical triangle and horizontal triangle.....

all in SLT. never been lost. but some might not see.

[anerlich]

There are vertical triangle and horizontal triangle.....

Jeez, just like in the just do it non-art of boxing, been there all the time though some may not see.

[wingchun_chick]

Hi Phenix!

can you please explain the different triangles
used in the SLT form, especially the hidden ones?....
Also in chum kiu...there is the triangle formed when the arms are extended out can you please explain the meaning of this...

also when punching should the elbow try to be in centerline or better to make movement naturally?

[anerlich]

Sorry Gangster, I missed this:


You do BJJ along with your wing chun correct? What techniques do you find useful when defending against the charging bull take down stuff?

IMHO, the SPRAWL is best, it's - comparatively - easy to learn, high percentage, and easy to recover your feet from, if that's what you want. There are various rolling collar chokes, neck cranks and other exotic techniques you can do from here, but the simplest thing is to angle off and try and circle around to get his back.

I've got the occasional standing guillotine choke (from where you can sprawl or guillotine/flop to guard against ordinary takedown attempts, but they're pretty hard to get against a good fast takedown, and most people who have invested the time it takes to develop those takedown skills have countermeasure for the guillotine.

[Edmund]

What's hard to believe? :)

The karate guy landed a good dim mak punch.
For all the punches he threw, the "wing stun" guy didn't land one that hurt.

"Wing stun" sucks dogs nuts! :p
Everyone should do bruce lee style!!! Hurrah!

Seriously, the karate guy was getting punched repeatedly and had no idea about how to defend it. He stank also. So I wouldn't be waving my karate flag around like he was something awesome.



Originally posted by TheBlackDragons
I can't believe that Karate guy wooped the wingstun fighter


The wingstun guy should of Battled more ineligently
he seemed insecure The Karate guy seemed much
more confident and reserved ,, also i detected o power
from the wing stun guy ,I won't judge the whole system on just this Bought but it kinda makes you wonder why Bruce lee altered it because he was not happy with ceartin aspects