Any Insight on Mimen Methodolgoy?

[mantis108]

Here's a recap of the original post by Tainan:


Tainan Mantis wrote:

Shrye's video is Beng Bu and Lanjie.
The Beng Bu video does the entire form fast.
The road by road fast and slow.
The slow way is the tradional methof of teaching, very unlike what you see in most modern videos.

It is based on the saying," Chu shou kuei pan jia man(literally; hands attack quickly, hold posture slowly)."

It is a principle to remember when doing forms as a beginner or as a warm up.

It means that the motion from posture to posture follows the original speed and intensity, but each posture is held for a long time.

This is the way his shrfu's taught him.
There was no explanation of a move or slo mo demo by the master.

The move is done one way and it is the student's responsibilty to work the move until it is perfected.

This can be seen in the tape as he does the form just this way for the benefit of the camera.

Both tapes show the applications to all the moves.
There are no 2 person training drills, though.

Both tapes also have the same set of basic exercises and drills as well as a short demo of some other forms.

These drills include the traditional roads of Mimen PM.
I recall he didn't put them all there though.
There were only 7 originally.

BTW, That Mimen style of teaching. There were 7 roads of basics which the student must stay with for about 6 months.

Then start the first form, which is lanjie.

The video's are short and not cheap.
But for students and grandstudents of Ponglai it is the only chance to see these 2 forms, especially Beng Bu the way it is done by Shr Zheng zhong.

This would be invaluable to the overseeas students who don't train with him here on a regualr basis.

I think this would make a good oppotunity to get some insights from those who train Mimen PM as well. I am hoping that Tainan would further the insights on Mimen PM training methodology. :)

So, please Kevin, let's hear it.

Warmest regards

Robert

[EarthDragon]

Interesting topic 108,
I have spoken to kevin and he had mentioned that my sigung did not teach lanjie in 8 step. I am curious as to find out how and where this was added and by whom.
the forms in our system are chi sao, chow fan chi, da fan chi, lipi and lanjie or so I thought. anyone care to elaborate?

[Tainan Mantis]

A topic close to my own heart.
There are, from what I have been able to discover, only two people who can claim learning from Zhang Dekuie of Mimen PM.

I have met some of his other students and they have mostly forgotten what they learned.

Su Yuzhang and my shrfu Shr Zhengzhong.

On The clips post of mine I have posted my shrfu performing Mimen Lanjie.

It is important to note that Zhang himself only called this Mantis style of his Gu Tang Lang, or ancient mantis.

Mimen is a name coined by Su that differentiates it from other flavors.

As far as fighting is concerned it is close to other PM styles.

But the big difference is in performing the forms.

There is a very high incidence of striking your body while performing the moves.
All styles have striking of the fist and forearm, but this style also has striking of the chest and floating ribs.
As well as the method of generating power. I won't describe this, just look at my shrfu in the Quicktime clips section and you will see what I mean.
When the lead hand punches the front foot drops and when the rear hand punches the rear foot drops.

The curriculum is very traditional.
-7 roads of basics.
They match closley meihua version.
If some WL folks learned Jiang Bingdoe's PM they may have learned similar roads. The difference mostly being in the stamping and hitting the body.

-Lanjie is the first form. For the record, all recordings of my shrfu doing this form are somewhat modified(more on that later).

-8 elbows in 4 sections

-Zhai yao in 7 sections.
The final section being ditang fist.

That is it for the forms. Everything else is learning how to use it.

ED,
This morning after training I brought your question as well as Mantis108 question with my shrfu.
This is because I noticed that the Lanjie that Shyun performs is the Zhang Dekuie version.

I recognize this by certain "markers" in the form.
Techniques that seem extra cool and are PM, but identify, beyond a shadow of a doubt, where this version came from.

I showed the marker in question to my shrfu to which he concurred, in language not fit for this forum, that it is absolutley positively Zhang's version.
Furthermore, GM Wei did not teach Lanjie, which is easily confirmable here.

The list of forms you wrote down, with the exception of lanjie, are taught by Wei.
About similarity of content I cannot say.

Also, you should have listed.
-Pai An, this and chi shuo are his introduction to two man.

-his 8 roads of basics
-6 zhai yao forms. This, especially his 1st zhai yao is the essence of his style.
It is conidered the most important aspect of 8 Step PM. And it is no wonder since the meaning of zhai yao is essentials.

About the knotty question of who and how was lanjie added I can offer two highly likely possiblities.

1st, my uncle Yang Fengshr learned Mimen from his brother Shr Zhengzhong.
He later lived for a while in Taipei and passed the lanjie form on to some well known shrfus(not Wei). This was in the early 80's.
So now this form has been adopted by several schools.
It contains the markers of Zhang, Shr and Yang.

But Yang's marker is not so good and so I can not say for sure if your version descends from him.

The other probability is that Shyun learned it as well as the other forms(possibly) from Su Yuzhang.
It is interesting that Shyun has never mentioned Su and yet if he did MA in Taipei with Wei he would surely have trained with him and been his younger brother.

Su is the brainchild of the new PM style called Baji Tanglang which includes elements of 8 Step, 7* and Meihua(apparantly no Mimen)and of course the complete Baji system.

Su teaches in NY, you can ask him in person.
He will be teaching a seminar at the Nick Scrima tourney also.
I think he has done more to promote Taiwan MA(debateable) and PM than anyone else coming out of Taiwan.

Most masters, such as my shrfu, continue the old method. Teaching in a park next to their home or a small wu guan and require the students themselves to come from afar.
Almost none one of my shrfu's students are locals.

In a day or two I will post another clip of my shrfu doing PM to give an idea of what it looks like.

[EarthDragon]

Tainan,
This is very interesting, and I am glad that the interent has shed some light on this subject.
In 1984 when master Wei died shyun came to the US and it was to be a long road of sceptcism. The only way I and many many other people heard of mantis is from shyun. He informed us that he was the sole inhertior of 8 step and that he in fact did have kung fu brothers, in NY and Taiwan but that he was the 4th generation and was given the manuscripts and the volumes of books written either by Wei, feng Hua Yi or Chiang hua long himself.
It wasnt until the conception of the internet and the creation of this site that questioned this. most of us have just accepted what he has said and never questioned it. He is our Sifu, why would he ever lie to us?
He knows his mantis very well, and moves perfectly like a master should so why would anyone ever think that what he is teaching is not the correct? With nothing to compare it too, it all just fit into place.
Since the light sheding..... I have heard of things mentioned in 8 step that I had never learned, and questioned why?It makes you feel pretty foolish when someone not even in your system knows more about your sigung than you do!

So I am spending at least the next 10 years to aquire the knowledge that I have been cheated out of. If you or others have anything that belongs in 8 step and would be kind enough to share I would be eternally greatful. I have spent 14 years learning mantis and would hate to think that I have been cheated and lied to.
P.S Tainan I did email you our form Chi sao, (chi shou) as you said but spelled it differently however I do not know of Pai An, or 6 zhai yao forms. This is disturbing to say the least. I am very dissapointed. Do you have these?

[mantis108]

Thanks Kevin, That's great stuff! Here are some further thoughts

<<<A topic close to my own heart.
There are, from what I have been able to discover, only two people who can claim learning from Zhang Dekuie of Mimen PM.>>>

I think this is one of the most interesting and exciting threads as well. :)

<<<I have met some of his other students and they have mostly forgotten what they learned.

Su Yuzhang and my shrfu Shr Zhengzhong.

On The clips post of mine I have posted my shrfu performing Mimen Lanjie.>>>

When I first saw the performance of Mimen Lanjie on the Taiwan TV show tape, I was deeply impressed with the form and the performance of Shrfu Shr Zhengzhong. I didn't know at the time that he studied with GM Chiu in HK as well. It was later confirmed by Roger Law, who is one of GM Chiu's longtime students in HK. After meeting you, I am certain that Shrfu Shr is an awesome PM master whose teaching of traditional mantis is beyond my imagination.

<<<It is important to note that Zhang himself only called this Mantis style of his Gu Tang Lang, or ancient mantis.

Mimen is a name coined by Su that differentiates it from other flavors.

As far as fighting is concerned it is close to other PM styles.

But the big difference is in performing the forms.>>>

Understood, thanks for the info.

<<<There is a very high incidence of striking your body while performing the moves.
All styles have striking of the fist and forearm, but this style also has striking of the chest and floating ribs.>>>

It is most eye openning when you showed me this. This type of Pai Da incoporated into the form is brilliant IMHO. However, other lineages derived from Jiang Hualong don't necessarily agree with the inclusion of Pai Da while doing the form. Personally, I like the Mimen way a lot.

<<<As well as the method of generating power. I won't describe this, just look at my shrfu in the Quicktime clips section and you will see what I mean.
When the lead hand punches the front foot drops and when the rear hand punches the rear foot drops.>>>

I think you and John both did a great job on describing the "Fajing" of Mimen. It is in one of the old thread. I also included those information of yours in my wooden dummy article but it was edited out due to the length exceeding the space available when the article came out in the Mantis Quarterly.

<<<The curriculum is very traditional.
-7 roads of basics.
They match closley meihua version.>>>

would you mind to list and compare them?

<<<If some WL folks learned Jiang Bingdoe's PM they may have learned similar roads. The difference mostly being in the stamping and hitting the body.>>>

Wow... (I am drooling) is there a chance you would elaborate?

<<<-Lanjie is the first form. For the record, all recordings of my shrfu doing this form are somewhat modified(more on that later).>>>

Yes, you have pointed that out to me before.

<<<-8 elbows in 4 sections>>>

I am very interested in seeing those some day.

-<<<Zhai yao in 7 sections.
The final section being ditang fist.>>>

I have seen the first six of others but never seen the 7th. We have some other ones that I haven't been able to trace the origin of them yet. We have Ditanglang but I am not sure the relationship of it to the rest of the Tanglang.

<<<That is it for the forms. Everything else is learning how to use it.>>>

That's all folk? Oh no... There's got to be some secret super duper forms! lol... (just kidding).

<<<ED,
This morning after training I brought your question as well as Mantis108 question with my shrfu.
This is because I noticed that the Lanjie that Shyun performs is the Zhang Dekuie version.>>>

I have seen a version that might have been Shyun's version of Lanjie but I can't relate it to any of the Luanjie/Lanjie versions. But it could be just me.

<<<I recognize this by certain "markers" in the form.
Techniques that seem extra cool and are PM, but identify, beyond a shadow of a doubt, where this version came from.

I showed the marker in question to my shrfu to which he concurred, in language not fit for this forum, that it is absolutley positively Zhang's version.>>>

I see...

<<<Furthermore, GM Wei did not teach Lanjie, which is easily confirmable here.>>>

That's to my understanding as well.

<<<The list of forms you wrote down, with the exception of lanjie, are taught by Wei.
About similarity of content I cannot say.

Also, you should have listed.
-Pai An, this and chi shuo are his introduction to two man.

-his 8 roads of basics
-6 zhai yao forms. This, especially his 1st zhai yao is the essence of his style.
It is conidered the most important aspect of 8 Step PM. And it is no wonder since the meaning of zhai yao is essentials.

About the knotty question of who and how was lanjie added I can offer two highly likely possiblities.

1st, my uncle Yang Fengshr learned Mimen from his brother Shr Zhengzhong.
He later lived for a while in Taipei and passed the lanjie form on to some well known shrfus(not Wei). This was in the early 80's.
So now this form has been adopted by several schools.
It contains the markers of Zhang, Shr and Yang.

But Yang's marker is not so good and so I can not say for sure if your version descends from him.

The other probability is that Shyun learned it as well as the other forms(possibly) from Su Yuzhang.
It is interesting that Shyun has never mentioned Su and yet if he did MA in Taipei with Wei he would surely have trained with him and been his younger brother.>>>

Very interesting indeed!

<<<Su is the brainchild of the new PM style called Baji Tanglang which includes elements of 8 Step, 7* and Meihua(apparantly no Mimen)and of course the complete Baji system.>>>

Is there a curriculum of Baji Tanglang available. Would anyone charm in here?

<<<Su teaches in NY, you can ask him in person.
He will be teaching a seminar at the Nick Scrima tourney also.
I think he has done more to promote Taiwan MA(debateable) and PM than anyone else coming out of Taiwan.>>>

My impression of Su is that he is one of the most inovative people in the MA world. I am neutral about his inovations.

<<<Most masters, such as my shrfu, continue the old method. Teaching in a park next to their home or a small wu guan and require the students themselves to come from afar.
Almost none one of my shrfu's students are locals.>>>

I think that's wonderful. Thanks for sharing the thought.

<<<In a day or two I will post another clip of my shrfu doing PM to give an idea of what it looks like.>>>

I am really looking forward for this. Thanks, please keep them coming. :)

Warmest regards

Robert

PS I think you brought up a great subject of "markers" in a style's forms.

[Tainan Mantis]

ED,
I don't want to hear any bad stuff about Shyun.
I don't want to know those dirty laundry family details.
I don't want to hear about your feelings after noticing you got a bad hand at the poker table.

It sounds bitter. That can't be a good thing. And I have no need to hear about it.
Just tell us about the good things you are doing now.

Lotsa seminars to go and meet teachers.
Give some positive impressions on the good things you see.

Also, I don't think your training with Shyun could have been so bad.
Before, you used to praise him with such glory that God Almighty himself wanted to sign up and study with Shyun.
And now...?

It was a waste of your time?

I have seen footage of Shyun performing his apps.
They are real, I can't deny.
He did teach you real 8 Step forms.

Also, his sifu test is a real cashew buster. Some folks would die before the day was over on that one just from all the physical exertion.

Not only that, Shyun is the only guy to push a PM fighter into UFC.
Joel Sutton.
Won a fight or two.
I guess all Shyun's students should be proud of that.
I feel proud just to be in PM cuz of good ol' Joel.

No one here can make such a claim for UFC.
The closest is our man Brendan Tunks who took the stage for the all China full contact knockdown(That may actually be a few notches higher in boasting rights).

2nd place out of a country of 1 point how many billion?
To quote Mr Potato Head,"Not bad!"

BTW, and this will intereset my close brothers.

My shrfu was cheated out of a lot of time and money in pursuit of magical kung fu powers.

Spent 3 years projecting his chi power so that he could defeat his enemy with out ever touching him.
Of course that was nonsense.
He later came to the conclusion that there are some skills that divide humans from entities that we wouldn't refer to as human.

Spent many years memorizing the sacred texts so he could learn the method of defeat by touch.
That guy was a fraud he discovered after he memorized all the texts.
It also took several years.

BTW, He later learned this skill from another.

One of his teachers, on his deathbed apoligized to my shrfu and said,"you were a good disciple I was waitng to find out if I could teach you the important essence of the style. Now it is too late."

The man died in his home.
But Shrfu felt no bitterness. Took him and cleaned the body himself by hand then dressed it for the funeral.
Goes every year to sweep the tomb(Chinese custom).

I have stories like these more, but I think you get the picture.
He never felt bitter about this stuff.
That would just slow down your progress.

[Tainan Mantis]

about your questions.

Jiang Hualong was illiterate as was Wei.
Wei's books(3) were written by his students.
This was told directly from Wei to my Shrfu, as well as being confirmed meself by other students of Wei's.

These books contain the manuscripts of most all Wei's forms.
So wei's level of illiteracy may not have been complete. Maybe more like my level. Though we may never know.

There are also the private manuscripts of the PM style.
It totals over 100 pages. It is mostly unpublished works though some bits have shown up here and there.
I also have made some of the translations avaialable here as well as in PM MQ magazine.

Ilya Profatilov has access to materials showing who were Jiang Hualong's disciples.
There is no mention of Feng Huanyi.
Last I checked he had looked all over Shandong on his historical research and could not find Feng Huanyi( though he found many other interesting things).
Interesting to note that Wei studied with many people, not only Feng.
This is confirmed by his MA poem(probably written by a student of his with Wei's help).

Pai An is a basic 2 man drill that is common to TJPM, 8 Step, 7* and Meihua.
All versions share obviuos similarites.
It is a good introductory phase for beginners.

I also don't know all the zhai yao forms.
I have learned other forms though.
I don't like to collect a bunch of forms there are a certain number of moves and the forms help you remember them.
The key point is just that you practice fighting so not having the zhai yao forms may not be such a big deal.
A lot of the same techniques are found in the forms you already know.

EG.
Look at the last road of Lipi.
After the 2 sweep kicks what follows is adopted directly from the oldest of the basic roads of PM.
It is called 5 interconnected punches.

[B.Tunks]

I wrote a whole bunch of garbage here but thought I'd just leave this instead:

Lets not forget Su Yuzhang's student Raphael Matute who is a world Thai Boxing Champion!

bt

[B.Tunks]

and to be honest, every fight I had in China outside of that comp was at least 10 times harder and scarier...

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by B.Tunks
Lets not forget Su Yuzhang's student Raphael Matute who is a world Thai Boxing Champion!

bt

NO, please forget that story and pretend it was never told. Let's just say, people have been unable to verify the story by checking published muay thai fight records held in thailand. Mr. Su also didn't address the question when asked directly in his own forum.

When story like this don't check out, it only hurts the cma credibility.

[Tainan Mantis]

WM,
That is interesting you mention such a thing.

I have seen many pics from the fights themselves.

The first thing that struck me is that they were doctored photos.
I have seen on various sites on the net what can be done with photoshop. It looks to me that the quality of the fotos of the Thai Boxing are not even top of the line quality fake photoshop photos.

I looked throughout my hard drive trying to find them, but I guess I didn't save them..

Maybe someone else saved them could post them here for all to judge?

[B.Tunks]

O.K, if that is the case, I retract. I think Mr Blanco will know about this one so i will ask him directly because myself, I dont truly know. I mentioned Matute in order to take the focus off me, maybe not such a good plan...

BT

[WanderingMonk]

Here's a clip from Mr. Su's website of a Japanese fighter (trained in baji mantis) fighting in thailand.

http://pachitanglang.myweb.hinet.net/1.wmv

so, apparently, his students can and will fight, but evidences showing his student was 5x world muay thai champion has been difficult to find.

IF someone can find credible evidences supporting the claim beside the original article in "li he mei" magazine and some photos, please post them. If not, please don't mention this story.

[B.Tunks]

I already said I had no idea if it was fake, but I would find out for myself. If it is b.ull**** then I definitely will 'mention it'.

[yu shan]

Tainan Mantis

The form Lipi that Shrfu John Scolaro does is Secret Door?

[Tainan Mantis]

Lipi is of 8 Step Mantis

[Tainan Mantis]

Look at this photo of the fight and compare it to the next.
He is doing the EXACT same thing, same clothes, same eyes.

Yet it is a different man he is fighting.

[Tainan Mantis]

Is there anyone here who doesn't find these two photos fishy?

[B.Tunks]

*@#$~%&!!!
more importantly, why were they allowing him to fight in a shirt and to wear completely illegal gloves for a thai boxing fight? Are these pics from the 'world championship thai boxing matches'? Cant work out how the elbow fits over the gloves in that position in the close up photo either. I am certainly just about ready to sit down for a big meal of fish right about now...

bt

[puja]

I do work often with pictures in photoshop and I've seen many compositions done by friends who do grafics, but this is one of the worst. For example when you look at the parts of his body overlapping his oponent he seems kind of flat in contrary to his oponent beeing somehow steric (although its a 2D pic). You can clearly see the differences in lightning on him and the oponent on both pics. And the fact that both pics (as tainan mantis already said) are based on the same master-pic prooves them nearly sure to be faked.

So long,

puja

[Oso]

the biggest thing to look at is the obvious lighting difference between the two figures.

perhaps Ming Yue can give us her expert opinion...

[Ming Yue]

The left figure is at a different resolution than the right figure. The lighting is wrong. Add to that the non-reg gloves and the fact that if he really had his elbow that far into the other guy's forehead there'd be frontal lobe on the camera lens.

It's a horrible composite. The person that did that should be soundly beaten with a Photoshop manual.

:cool:

[B.Tunks]

I have now been furnished with some facts on the matter. It appears I was giving props where they weren't due. Wandering Monk was correct about these title claims. I withdraw my compliment to Mr Matute. So now the big question; why the hell would he do this in the first place?

bt

[EarthDragon]

Tainan,
I realize that this is not the place to air out dirty laundry and I apologize. however I cant help but feel certain emotion when I find out something about 8 step that I should have known or been taught. I realize as a student certain things are hid from you, but when you become a shrfu things should not.
I have tried to learn everything I can about the history and techniques, and will continue to learn and have a positive outlook on the future.
I do respect him for what he taught me and will try my best to fill in what I am missing.

As far as Joel Sutton he is my kung fu brother and friend. We grew up in buffalo togehter and trained in the same school from Dean in Clarence NY, also he was in SF when I moved out there and we spent many months on the mat training for his first UFC fight #6. I also hosted Yoshiki Takahashi at my school when he came to america to fight in the UFC 7 and Joel was there everyday. And I am proud that 8 step was represented in the UFC and won 2 fights. Dont get me wrong it was not all bad, we had many great training years.

About the chi projection skill as you may know my qigong teacher Yen Chu Feng form beijing that I met in S.F moved to Buffalo and lived with me and to claify her qigong is medical (she shoots her qi into her patients to stimulate and rebalance their negative qi) I trained with her everyday for 5 years and one day asked her to show me how to use ping qi in a martial way, she said this not for fighting, but I said I know but what if? she swiped down my body with her finger and my left side went numb.

When I tell people this they are hesitant to believe until I took my student to her and she did the same to him. I have a pictureon my website under "masters" of me sticking a 9 inch metal wire through my thigh muscle without the slighest pain or bleeding so I am well aware of such skill and find that subject incredibly interesting.

So again I just want to move on and gather as much knowledge as I can in my years simply to pass down to my student Andrew who has been with me faithfully for 8 years. I owe him everything and want to teach him whatever I learn, This is my goal. God bless

[Tainan Mantis]

Within this thread I posted some personal information about Wei Xiaotang.
Don't go back and find what it is please.

I was notified through private emails(thanks for the face saving gesture) about my blunders.

I will talk to the closest Taiwan source I know, Zuo Xienfu, and later post a complete, hopefully interesting report.

The info on curriculum, to the best of my knolwedge still stands.

Please be patient while I gather the correct info and translate and arrange it.

[K.Brazier]

Brings back the memories reading this old stuff.

Now if we could only find the other thread posting the historical corrections to this one...

Kevin

[Sifu Darkfist]

According to My Master, a very close friend to Master Su Mimen is differentiated by its adherence to close fighting strategies and is characterized by drawing the target to attack outside the gate thus closed door. If you can hold your eyes for a moment on the positioning of .. Hmm ok Ba Bu; it invites the assailant to attack into the interior of your person where you systematically dismantle them. Your overwhelming ability in that gap enables you to comfortably handle an attack in this area. Mimen is quite the opposite, it makes the centerline attack nearly impossible if not, at least the last choice. Here it forces the attacker outside where the Mimen practitioner destroys the target.

Think of a game of chess. Some masters like to draw you in, some like to drive you out (which explains the Lan Jie). I am aware that Plum Flower accomplishes this as well to some extent, it is my understanding that Mimen reiterates and wholly perfects the taste coming out of Mei Hua.

Any way that is what I learned unless I have misunderstood (which I am sure you all will not hesitate to berate me).

As far as Baji Tang Lang is concerned I say it is a LOOOOng time coming we have Tai JI Ba Gua based Ba Bu etc. why not use the gods thunder as the basis for Tang Lang flavor. I use Baji Flavor in all my Tang Lang, its whole body power is unrivaled. More power to the Mantis King.

[mooyingmantis]

Darkfist,
Thank you for your take on Mimen!
I have known your Shifu since the '80s and know that he and his students are very talented individuals. I purchased Su's Mimen tape from Tony and think it was very well done. GM Su's hands were nearly invisible in his youth (no, I am NOT exaggerating).
The Baji influence Tony's group now incorporates doesn't really "float my boat", but on the other hand, I still wouldn't want to be hit by any of you. :)
Respectfully,
Mooyingmantis

[Sifu Darkfist]

Thanks for your gracious reply i have the deepest respect for others that are not afraid to show respect in public. I wrote the small piece in order to redirect the posts to a thread that is in disscusion of "Methodology" not character assasination of anyone.

As far as the Baji flavor, it is an unintended product of training Baji from my masters group. None of his students actively push Baji Tang Lang that i am aware of. I did so openly because of the same reasons all of the other great masters pushed Tai JI Mantis or Ba Bu mantis etc.

The combination of the two in my own personal use i have found to be overwhelming in many respects. I am a disciple of my master who at one point as a youth trained under GM SU until they both were accepted By GM LIU.

I hate to sound Stylecentric but i have yet to find any style that delivers the entire person upon each touch. So as i said before, Finish the Baji Tang Lang GM Su if that is your intention, I for one will be satisfied.

[Forkintheroad]

Brings back the memories reading this old stuff.

Now if we could only find the other thread posting the historical corrections to this one...

Kevin

Sorry about that,
I think this may be the thread with a correction;

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30722

[K.Brazier]

Fork,
Thanks for going to the trouble.
Haven't forgotten your other question...

Kevin