More basics

[Buddy]

After some thought I've decided to copy a little of a book I was thinking about writing. Now I realize I don't know enough to write a book. This is mostly neigong I learned from Bruce Frantzis. I'm just going to copy it here directly from my notes so be kind...:)

Please remember I've posted this to a public forum. It is still my work and I hold all rights. Don't steal it and call it yours or I will find you and kill you. Beyond that I welcome comments and questions.


There is very little written about the system of Baguazhang and even less about its specific training methods. I hope this work will, in some small way, help fill that gap so that the prospective student will have some guidelines by which to practice. It should be said that the principles and exercises presented herein are not the sum total of all of Baguazhang jibengong. There are many styles of Baguazhang and some may have different concepts and ideas. In my opinion, all styles should follow the same basic principles, namely the relaxed use of whole body power, a constant connection to the center of the body (dantien), and a concentration on positioning by the use of footwork. As it is difficult for the beginner to try to train all aspects of Bagua at once, the system I teach breaks into separate parts the skills we feel are useful to learn for a complete internal art. The principles around which these various skills and learned and integrated are: separate and combine and from center to periphery and periphery to center. These principles will be discussed later in this text.
Initially the beginning student needs to learn how to release excess tension in the body and align the structure with gravity. This is done primarily through the practice of standing exercises (zhuan zhuang). Zhuan zhuang literally means to stand like a post. After gaining some facility with this practice the student will then learn how to move this relaxed, aligned with gravity structure, with the body’s movement originating in the hips. From there movement must be initiated in the waist and then the hip and waist movement is combined. The student will also learn the ability to access and lengthen the soft tissue of the body, open and close the joints and cavities in the body, and to flex and pressurize the spine and connect the spine to the limbs. As this is an introduction to the basic training of this system of Baguazhang only a few of these skills will be addressed in this book.



As previously mentioned the most important skill for the beginner to learn is relaxation. Obviously one can learn to relax in several positions including standing, sitting, or lying down. In that the martial arts are mostly used from the standing position (ground grappling excepted) this is the best posture from which to learn relaxation. This also strengthens the legs and allows the energy of the body to flow downwards.

Standing

Start with feet parallel to each other. Be sure and look down to make sure your feet are actually parallel. Often beginners go by the feel in their body instead of actually checking. My experience is that most people’s bodies are out of alignment.
The feet can be placed in varying distance from each other depending on the intent of your practice. Bruce Frantzis taught beginners to line up their feet to the side energetic channels in the body (see illustration). This position is best for self-cultivation and for circulating the qi. As the feet get 18-24 inches apart (depending on your size) you begin to work in the subtle qi body. Wider stances are for practiced for projection of the energy you develop such as for healing others and for martial arts.
The weight is in the center of the foot and the knees are unlocked. As your stance gets wider you must drop lower into your stance, but without the knees coming too far forward. Sit gently into the inguinal area as you allow the waist to come back and the lumbar area to straighten. The arms are relaxed at the sides with the area between the thumb and fore finger (tiger’s mouth) to rest at the side of the body about where you would have a seam on a pair of trousers. The elbow faces outward. This arm posture helps keep the armpits open. It also helps to keep the shoulders from rounding forward. Many practitioners I have seen have a tendency to slump their shoulders (although very relaxed) forward in an attempt to follow the classic advice to “drop the chest and raise the back”. As the head raises gently off the top of the spine by lifting the occiput, you have a feeling of being suspended from above. Note: To find the top of the head trace a line with each finger from the tops of the ears up ward to the head top. Throughout this process you should rest your tongue on the hard palate just above your top front teeth. If you say the word “la” you’ll find the right spot. This connects the governing and functional channels of energy in the body completing the “microcosmic orbit”.

Do you want more?
Buddy

[shawnsegler]

yes

[BAI HE]

I second that yes.

Can't imagine how long it took you to type bra'.
If need be I can have my wife (80 words a min)
Type 'em onto word and put 'em on floopy so you can cut and paste.

[puja]

I would like to see more of your writings, too

greets,

puja

[LeoV]

Buddy,

You way underestimate yourself. You know enough to fill out a book (books even!). :D

-Leo

[8gua]

more porridge please, sir

it is very clearly stated and I would like to read on thanks for sharing. the same candor which may raise the occasional hackle online translates into a very clear and digestible writing style, well done.

[Vash]

*wipes blood from eyes*

pardon me, but I'm a simple country boy with simple reading comprehension skills. If I knew a thing about Bagua, including how to pronounce it, I'm sure I'd be impressed . . .

Actually, I'm very impressed. Though I don't know much about the style, your writing, which is clear, concise, and actually enjoyable, makes it feel like I could know what was going on.

I might not know what's going on, but please, do post more, or tell us when you get that book deal. I'm not a Baqua peep, but I'd be very interested in reading your accounts of it.

Good stuff.

[Buddy]

Oh ****.
I wrote all that when I was sober and thinking I could actually write a book. However I posted it when i was in my cups thinking nobody would be interested. Maybe Gene will offer me money for an article which could posted here and in his website. God I am such a capitalist! If he doesn't what do you think my answer would be to writing more? Just curious. Or is he Gene Cha-ching as Bai he says. Just kidding.
Buddy

[Buddy]

I realize that my response was somewhat flippant. Particularly based on all of your responses. Thank you. While I wouldn't mind if Gene gave me money for what I write, if I write and he decides to put it it his mag, I've already written it. So, for me, because I hate to type, the best thing is for some of you to ask questions, because that really piques my interest. I haven't written on this stuff in awhile and I can't say how much I can write in the future but if you ask questions it will spur me on. Fair?
Be well,
Buddy

[Buddy]

Sigh.
If I was where I was back in the 70's and I had this opportunity I would ask all my questions from back then. Oh well. I will try to keep my enthusiasm for this project. Your enthusiasm would help. I would do it every day for an hour or a half an hour and use my body as a lab. Oh wait I did but it took me until the 90s before I found it. Why wait 20 years like I did?
So when you are are standing you need to relax. Ah, you say, Sung right Buddy? No, this is Fang. Let, the f**k go. How do you let go?....Well...?
Ah no answer.
Pick something up and just drop it. Or clench a fist and release it (NOT open it). That's it just let it go. Why do you need to hold tension in your body? Why not just release any muscular contraction that is not required for you to remain upright? What is the minimum muscular usage that you can get away with? How can you align your body (structure) with gravity so that this becomes both effective and efficient? If you don't actually do what's the point in my continuing? This threa had made it's way down list. It will continue to do so unless you are willing to put in the work. Up to you. Or you can just continue to learn forms. I suspect maybe there are others who read this who do real Bagua what ever the style. Ben? Novell? Count? Please.

[count]

No, you're doing good here Buddy. Just fine. I know it's frustrating when people don't relax and think about what questions to ask. Especially when everyone here are seasoned, professional martial artists and already know all the answers to all the questions. Christ, I've been at this for more than 25 years now and I'm just beginning to figure out the questions but hey, if you keep posting this gold, I won't have to do any work for myself. Truthfully, I have been discouraged with contributing here lately but since you've made such an effort I guess I will have to reconsider too.

I'll catch up later, but one key that really helped me is stretch out as far as you can go, than let go. But I think the question is how do you find the balance of tension and relaxation in martial arts?

[Walter Joyce]

As Buddy has mentioned, what we are trying to do here is describe the physical structure and sensations that lead you to moving consistent with the principles of neijia. As far as the balance of tension and relaxation, I still use the method Buddy explained to me.

Using his standing methods, and the idea of making a fist and LETTING it open as a standard for relaxation, the next step (for ba gua) is to raise your arms at shoulder height and pointing to the sides (forming a T with your body and arms).

Next, extend your fingertips by opening the joints and lengthening your soft tissue until you get that buzz at the fingertips. Now, when you practice your jibengong, try and maintain that sense of tautness.

I don't know if that is helpful or on target, but its my contribution.

[Buddy]

Well... hmmm.
Did anyone actually do the exercise? I doubt it. I did it for four months before learning the next step. I stopped doing everything else I had learned up to that point. That was easy, I had just learned choreograhy, except for the external.. I suspect some of you are too expert to actually try my method and some of you just want information as opposed to knowlege and skill. Whatever.
My goal (obviously because I'm just giving it away. AND by the way I dare any other teacher to do the same..) is to spread my meager understanding so that it doesn't get lost.
So.
Fangsong gong. Fang...let go. If that's not clear from the other post, ask.
Song...much more difficult to describe. I won't say translate because I don't speak Chinese so I will only give my idea. Not realx because that seems to be 'Fang". How about "loosen?' Maybe a little better. I can't translate it so let me go off as bit aabout what it is for me. This could be wrong so...
Song.. stretch an elastic band, that's song. To not stretch is limp, to stretch is to add song, a potential of release. Bend a bow, and notch the arrow, that's song...for me. Make sense? No tension just potential.
Gong.. the skill, and the method for developing it.
Please comment. Please try the exercise, even if you are an expert, then we can speak on better terms. Then ask a question. Then I will continue. I'm starting to like doing this.
Here's the other thing. I can describe how to deveop internal power here. If you don't have the chance to feel it, and, thereby have someone show you how to do it, you're lost. It really does "have to be shown". Look, I'm happy to share my understanding. But it stops here unless you are willing to do the work. I ask the same of my students. They get it.
Buddy
A couple of people have emailed me privately...ask me here. I'm not sure how long I will write. It's better if everyone hears it. Then they can make better, their own choices
Buddy

[8gua]

No tension just potential.


this is a great and fine distinction as far as I am concerned.....people tend to seek the extremes and miss the space in between...as far as I can tell this is where it all comes from....I do not have your experience and am always interested in what you put down....

from where I am currently....and I believe this to be not only pertinent, but fluid, in that what is said at certain times takes on gravity in relation to where you stand and that always changes.....i spend alot of my time in exploring the range of movement and my ablility to be "totally" relaxed within that range....how can I be full, present, but also not fixed or needing to be where i currently stand in relation to another..... strong, solid, yet, moveable..... in a way it is like moving a blanket, if you do not get all the corners it comes in on you, you drag it on the ground or it wraps around you as you try to move it...it is all connected, loose, moveable, but akward to deal with unless you can gather it all up, all i can see to do is to not be gathered at the corners, that usually gives people a difficult task to try and handle....I have spent a considerable amount of time on relaxation and integration....despite this i still find my downfall in trying to create a result, this seems to me to be the distraction that leads me into doing and away from skill.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

"The arms are relaxed at the sides with the area between the thumb and fore finger (tiger’s mouth) to rest at the side of the body about where you would have a seam on a pair of trousers. The elbow faces outward. This arm posture helps keep the armpits open." .... I find that the attention needed to keep the elbows facing outward is distracting and adds tension where none is needed.. Though it is noteworthy that i may be misinterpreting this posture as WuJi.. for me zhuan zhuang is more like the "tree-hugging" exercise.. ( i did do the exercise, Buddy ).. the most effort i have found is maintaining peng while maintaining serious relaxed states.. i, like most, tend to let the peng become physical (yeah, i know, it is but it isn't, such odd dichotomies).. the experience i have with this exercise suggests a relaxed arm with the thumbs lightly touching the thighs at the gall bladder points..

I note the differences between normal abdominal breathing and reverse abdominal breathing and was wondering what your thoughts on this are?

Be well..

[puja]

As far as I 've heard normal abdominal breathing is supposed to be for gathering qi whereas reverse abdominal breathing is for qi strengthening. But I'm not sure about that.
Would be glad if someone could explain and perhaps point out the different usuages of the two methods (when do I use which breathing..)

Best regards,

puja

[Buddy]

Sorry I'm very busy right now but promise to get back to these. Briefly- At this point to discuss breathing would only complicate things. At first we just breathe regularly and not think of the breath. It's pretty certain you won't forget to breathe. Second we try to breathe into the abdomen. But here's a clue, you can't really breathe into the abdomen. You can only breathe into the lungs. Ha! So why do we say breathe into the abdomen? Reverse breathing is for pressurizing the body.
Later,
Buddy

[puja]

You're right buddy we don't really breath into the abdomen. Abdominal breathing is only intended to first fill the lower lungs, which are not filled with usual breast-breathing, but after that fill the rest of the lungs like in normal breathing, too. This way we can get much more air and with that oxygen into our body and are able to breathe much more calmly and relaxed.

puja

[BAI HE]

.. and create pressure. It can't be stressed enough.
Pressure working with the principles of gravity, BOOM! IMA.
Pressure and gravity work hand in hand, everything from bone density to the liquid presure within our bodies may equal IMA when manipulated and implemented in a correct fashion....

Just a theory, but one I'm starting to chase down.

[Buddy]

It's a bit more than that. If I say, breathe into some other part of the body, we can't really do it. No more than we can breathe into the abdomen. You're right that aspect is to fill the whole lung. But more importantly we use the breath to train the mind. The important thing is to learn to use the yi to be able to access and manipulate the internal body. So first we learn to use the breath to do that with the muscles, etc, that are directly and indirectly involved when we breath, ie the torso. Then we can realize that we can use a similar idea (the mind) to control other (and all) areas of the body. Make sense? It might not if you are a beginner. It didn't to me. When I first heard about this I had no basis for understanding it. When I have time I'll start another thread or maybe here to describe how I learned and teach this breathing. I can move almost any part of my body at will. For me it's kind of a trick. But not really a trick. It's just that it's no big deal but really useful.

[LeoV]

Originally posted by BAI HE
.. and create pressure. It can't be stressed enough.
Pressure working with the principles of gravity, BOOM! IMA.
Pressure and gravity work hand in hand, everything from bone density to the liquid presure within our bodies may equal IMA when manipulated and implemented in a correct fashion....

Just a theory, but one I'm starting to chase down. Keep in mind too the pressure in reverse breathing is also massagaing your organs. Keep them nice and healthy and working... :)

I agree with Buddy (which I guess I should since what he's been writing is exactly how he taught me) that beginners shouldn't worry about the breath so much. My perspective on this is that a beginner's mind is so locked up in the mechanics of the exercise (is this aligned? Is this right? Am I balanced? etc.) that it's not free to focus on the breathing. As Buddy mentioned, you need your mind to work the breath. If it's not there, then you really cannot work it.

[Midnight]

Originally posted by LeoV
My perspective on this is that a beginner's mind is so locked up in the mechanics of the exercise (is this aligned? Is this right? Am I balanced? etc.) that it's not free to focus on the breathing. As Buddy mentioned, you need your mind to work the breath. If it's not there, then you really cannot work it.


Sure the mind is locked on body mechanics, but only until those body mechanics become an inate systematic response that the body can perform on its own, without thought. Once this is acheived I believe the mind should then focus on breathing. And just like body mechanics, it'll focus on it until it becomes second nature to breathe at the right times.

As soon as both are acheived, the mind may be released altogether, and you may react accurately, and without thought.

[Buddy]

Mike,
While I agree with the whole of your statement, I disagree with its parts. Before thinking about breathing one must concentrate on just the mechanics. That said I teach them somewhat concurrently. However its more important for the beginner to develop a sense of a. not fighting gravity (releasing downward) and b. the expansion of the body upward. As it is my thread I think we will stick to my model. I appreciate your comments, but they are not in keeping with my teaching model. Perhaps you can start a thread on breathwork. I'd be happy to throw my two cents in.

[Buddy]

So with my two threads and Mikes about breathwork, interest died. Pity. But good luck anyway.

[shawnsegler]

Sorry,

I haven't been checking this forum much lately.

Buddy, I'm actually quite interested in the training methods to direct the breath to different parts of the body.

When I learned the tai chi spinal stretch, I remember we spent a whole weekend doing exercises and touching each others spines to try and move the vertebrae with the breath. I can do it now to a certain extent, but because I was so conentrated on other things at the time (and billions of brain cells lost to alchohol after my divorce) I can't for the life of me remember the specifics of what I did to learn it, and would love it if you would elaborate a little.

If not I understand, but I think it's a fascinating apect of these arts.

Best wishes,

Shawn.

[Yaksha]

This is a very high quality thread, you guys should listen to Buddy more closely. I do this qigong myself, and I must admit it has improved my fighting ability vastly.

I do not think I could have described nearly as well as Buddy has, so listen up! This guy knows what he's talking about!

[CD Lee]

Buddy said


Well... hmmm.
Did anyone actually do the exercise? I doubt it. I did it for four months before learning the next step. I stopped doing everything else I had learned up to that point.


Buddy, really enjoying your thread here. You have put in a lot of things, just curious, are you talking about standing as you described as the excercise? Or the letting go, or both?

Not sure about your past, but when I started Xingyi, all we did at first was exactly the things you have been describing. One year, no forms, just standing and excersices to move, shift, and step properly. Although we have progressed to the elemenal fists, I still do them. Of course standing is a daily thing.

Don't get discouraged here with all these folks if possible. Depending on the experience levels, and teachers, you will get:

1. Those who have done the methods you describe, and get some validation to thier arts methods.

2. Those who have done a little of something, but did it externally, and might try some of your ideas, but probably not.

3. Those who have done nothing, and may try it, but will not understand the real value of it, and may be very cursory in their ability to sustain meaningful practice.

4. Somebody who is a true beginner, and really is doing what you say, but this takes time, so there will be no sudden deluge of questions. All our newest students, we have to beat questions out of anyways. They don't know what they don't know.

Keep up the good work.

I would like to get your email, I have some questions for you that are not appropriate on this thread or forum. You can email me your address if you are inclined to cldavis33@yahoo.com

[Buddy]

<<First, thank you for replying. As long as you do I will try to continue to write. I am a poor corrospondant but will do my best as long as there is interest. I suspect most would not be so open.


Buddy, really enjoying your thread here. You have put in a lot of things, just curious, are you talking about standing as you described as the excercise? Or the letting go, or both?


<<Truly I forget which thread I'm talking about. The standing thread, right? Let go in the standing. Let go and don't deny gravity. THen stretch up and then let go some more. Its an interplay between yin and yang

Not sure about your past, but when I started Xingyi, all we did at first was exactly the things you have been describing. One year, no forms, just standing and excersices to move, shift, and step properly. Although we have progressed to the elemenal fists, I still do them. Of course standing is a daily thing.

<< Yup. First year I did Santi and Piquan only. I had already done three years of just neigong (not doing what I had previously learned, just a bunch of forms)

Don't get discouraged here with all these folks if possible. Depending on the experience levels, and teachers, you will get:

1. Those who have done the methods you describe, and get some validation to thier arts methods.

2. Those who have done a little of something, but did it externally, and might try some of your ideas, but probably not.

3. Those who have done nothing, and may try it, but will not understand the real value of it, and may be very cursory in their ability to sustain meaningful practice.

4. Somebody who is a true beginner, and really is doing what you say, but this takes time, so there will be no sudden deluge of questions. All our newest students, we have to beat questions out of anyways. They don't know what they don't know.


<<Good point. But almost nobody responds or PMs me. Obviously I'm giving away a lot of good stuff. I paid with a lot of time and a lot of money. I just want the current level to improve. So as long as someone listens and rsponds, I'll go on.

[Buddy]

CD,
Write me at buddytripp@lungmen.org

[Yaksha]

I've done and still do the exercises you've mentioned so far, but it seems that you will be getting into stuff that I'm not familiar with soon. I'm patiently waiting for that, because it will do me a lot of good to improve my practice. I don't know a lot about bagua except I've tried the first palm change and it really gets my good juices going from all the twisting. I've never learned anything about bagua except the pure external stuff.

If it would motivate you to keep these lessons going, I will respond more often.

[Buddy]

Wow,
Yaksha, that is exactly what I was looking for. Is that your real name? Buddy is really mine. I feel fortunate to be able to be a part of anyones progress. It would help me if you would ask questions. This is the way it works with my students. By the questions I know their progress. I will continue to write as my time permits. Thank you.
Shawn write me direct. I don't want to talk about that yet. But I will later if there is interest. There should be no secrets.
Buddy

[Yaksha]

I don't have any good questions yet, but what is the next step in the qigong?