a modern problem to traditional styles

[red5angel]

I'm under the impression that since the rise of so called NHB fighting, and the success of grappling and arts like muy thai, that some people believe these arts to be superior because of the evidence provided in the arenas so far.

My theory goes that the more modern arts don't have anything up on the traditional arts, except that for the way they train. If traditional arts adopted more modern training methods - forget all the qi crap and start weightlifting for strength, encourage the use of modern training equipment and methods and some real hardcore training as well as cross training.
I say cross training because there is a disease spreading through modern but traditional schools. See, in an effort to keep students, many instructors are telling their students the don't need to cross train, that their art is complete and effective at all ranges. This is usually not true and modern fighters have seen this and adapted, time we traditionalist adapt too.

I firmly believe that traditional arts can be translated into the modern era effectively and can be used to compete effectively as well, but the people who want to compete have to adapt to the way their opponents train - if you have a beer belly, if you get winded after running a half mile, if you get dazed and confused after one or two punches, or you have to take a break after your first minute of sparring - you need to train harder :) If someone close to you or your training says don't worry about kicking, or grappling or any other of the, believe it or not "effective" techniques out there, then move along and find someone else to train you.

If your not training hard - and by hard I mean real hard. Breaking a sweat during training does not constitute hard in my book, and hopefully not yours. If your not sparring at full contact with minimal pads, stop arguing about traditional arts being effective in a competitive setting. If your not taking shots and fighting traditional guys who are training hard, stop spouting off about MMA being better. Unless your out there not only touching hands, but sparring, and fighting with other styles not the one you are practicing, no one wants to hear your opinion on how mcuh better your art is.

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by red5angel
I'm under the impression that since the rise of so called NHB fighting

Yah I think that's why they call it MMA now...



My theory goes that the more modern arts don't have anything up on the traditional arts, except that for the way they train

Okay... Looking agreeable so far...



If traditional arts adopted more modern training methods - forget all the qi crap and start weightlifting for strength, encourage the use of modern training equipment and methods and some real hardcore training as well as cross training.

Still doing decent, although I'm not sure you gotta cross train unless you're serious about competing in MMA.

Nobody really bashes boxers for "only boxing", it's the fact that the learn, train, and use their stuff at a high intensity level on a daily basis.



I firmly believe that traditional arts can be translated into the modern era effectively and can be used to compete effectively as well, but the people who want to compete have to adapt to the way their opponents train

no problem



if you have a beer belly, if you get winded after running a half mile, if you get dazed and confused after one or two punches, or you have to take a break after your first minute of sparring - you need to train harder :)

I'm sure Tank, Cabbage, Ted Williams (KOTC not the 'Sox), and Travis Fulton would disagree with some of that.



If someone close to you or your training says don't worry about kicking, or grappling or any other of the, believe it or not "effective" techniques out there, then move along and find someone else to train you.

Again, this is dependent on your goals.



If your not training hard - and by hard I mean real hard. Breaking a sweat during training does not constitute hard in my book, and hopefully not yours.

Keep on preaching, and we the choir will keep on singing...



If your not sparring at full contact with minimal pads, stop arguing about traditional arts being effective in a competitive setting.

I can hear the sirens now.
you went from making some sense to sounding like you are advocating a death wish.
Safety equipment is not there to make the pain go away; but to reduce injuries so you can train harder, longer, and more frequently.



If your not taking shots and fighting traditional guys who are training hard, stop spouting off about MMA being better.

good luck trying to find any :p



Unless your out there not only touching hands, but sparring, and fighting with other styles not the one you are practicing, no one wants to hear your opinion on how mcuh better your art is.

beautiful.

[Ray Pina]

Yea, none of this is new.

No matter the discipline, folks striving to really grasp their art and taking it out to fight against other disciplines are learning what works for them and what they need to work on. They also know that nothing works 100% of the time, they can guess wrong, get caught sleeping for a second, the human factor ect.

The debate is, "What is traditional?" I would say MMA is very traditional. There practioners train it whith the heart and discipline of real martial artists ... that too me is traditional.

I'm studying "traditional martial arts" from a Chinese man who specialized in Ba Gua and Hsing-I as well as pole and sword fighting. I don't really like being labled as "kung fu" though, because that conjures up images of "chop, chop" and big splits and wobbly swords.

If you know that your training works, that's all that matters.

[Shaolinlueb]

hmmm I dont know where to go with this. other than say.

You can use traiditional moves to stop "modern" mma/nhb techniques. and therefore you arent branching to far away form tradition.

[Shen Zhou]

You have your fundamentalist BJJ just like you have your fundamentalist Kung Fu stylist. It's in our nature to hold dear and try to preserve what it is that we love. Now with that being said and I hate to reiterate a point that has already been made here, but we all have pretty much the same idea/theories about fighting. (Punch, kick, advance, retreat, move side to side, counter, attack standing / ground.) Even within our own styles these concepts may vary in appearance but are still there. Now what differs are the players (i.e. sizes, ages, gender, mobility, sight etc) INTENT, and training methods. Most MA students have asked themselves these questions “Do I want to be a full contact fighter", Do I want to fight at all other then just for self defense?" "Can I really fight?" “What if this happens or that happens will I be able to react fast enough to save myself?" The questions can go on and on.

The only real question in life is "What am I willing to do to achieve what I want?" If my goal is to be bet every BJJ in the world with out going to the ground then am I will to train my Kung Fu to a fine razors edge? If my goal is to be the Next Trump am I willing to do what it takes to become that? I am a firm believer in it’s not the style it’s the heart of the player. If I am willing risk life and limb to get my way and your not then I believe I will make it and you won’t. (There is always an X variable no one can see but we will leave that out for now) I recently read the story of Masahiko Kimura the man who defeated Helio Gracie. Even though I don’t train in BJJ I loved this story. Two parts stood out to me more then any others:


Even with the broken elbow, Gracie still refused to give up, so his corner "threw in the towel". Kimura was declared the winner by TKO. Although Kimura won the actual fight, it was acknowledged that Gracie had the greater fighting spirit and will. Kimura later applauded Gracie's tremendous will to win.

AND


At the end of session, Kimura taught Shime-Waza. Initially, he demonstrated the techniques, then he allowed the students to choke him. Since he was somewhat intoxicated, he was choked into unconsciousness by the student. Without defense, even Judo greats can be chocked into unconsciousness by a white belt student

No one can control the X variable in this case a broken armand the other sake. Mr. Gracie had his mind made up of what he wanted and risked his life for it and only stopped fighting because of his “corner” as the story goes. That’s what each and every MA has to decide for him or her self when it comes down to it will I do what it takes or will I not. Contrary to what you might believe even BJJ have people in there system that doubt themselves and the BJJ system. A paraphrase from Lloyd Irvin newsletter (a great investment in time for all MA's to read). There is only one Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Pavarotti, and Al Pacino, (Sent of Women “Classic”) Dj Qbert, and Emimen. These individuals took their art and crafted it to be the on top right now. Not over night and they did not win every time but they are still considered some of the cream of the crop players in their respected fields.

Sorry folks for the length.......... Sorry...........

Shen Zhou

[red5angel]

Still doing decent, although I'm not sure you gotta cross train unless you're serious about competing in MMA.


good point. it's always a matter of goals, however I believe that all ranges of combat need to be addressed for most serious martial artists, for self defense or competition, and cross training is usual necessary for this.
As for the pads and fighting and all that, agreed. Wear safety equipment but from time to time fighting with a minimal amount is ok in my opinion.


The debate is, "What is traditional?"

Actually I'd say we just have to wipe away the "Traditional" Label. I believe it's holding people back. there are some out there who believe that training traditionally is the only way to go. I've trained traditionally, and while it can be hard and can certainly build an effective fighter, that fighter can get that much more out of his ability and his art if he were to push beyond traditional and accept some modern training methodologies. I have a good example. When I was training in a particular art, I was constantly told not to weight lift but to just practice my forms and drills and don't worry about it. I was in the worst shape of my life, sick all the time ( contrary to popular belief that qigong is supposed to help you stay healthy) and I wasn't fighting as well as I could. I started lifting weights again, doing the things I used to do before and my ability to fight increased considerably.


shen zhou - I think heart has a lot to do with it. If you have the heart and your really out there trying, busting your butt to get that high level of skill, I say that's great! Then you probbaly know all this stuff as pretty basic, and you probably don't have a problem representing what it is you do. however, if you don't have the heart to train hard, to take that extra time out of your life to work at getting taht skill. If you odn't have the drive to push yourself every day, even though you might not feel like it, to eat right and to maintain your health - then don't be out there trying to tell people that what you have is the apex of martial arts skill. That all others strive to have what you have. don't go critiscizing other arts about the way they do things.
Guys like MP, Evolution Fist, Shaolin Tiger and so on, those guys who get out there and fight can say anything they want in my opinion. They may be wrong, and we may argue about it, but at the core I know they are out there testing what they believe, and it's possible our experiences just diverge.

[Shen Zhou]

I agree but that’s with anything, if you don’t know or do it yourself you should keep quiet about the subject. But in the same breath MP, Evolution Fist, Shaolin Tiger are the guys you respect and know about from personal experience. Even though I am sure these guys are very proficient MA's they are a very small few of KFO and the martial community at large. I personally know a number of very skilled fighters on KFO that posts less frequently and may not be able to write as eloquently as MP, but that takes nothing from there fighting ability or the valiantly of what they have to say. I have read many of the posts from each person you mentioned and I find them very enlighten mostly because they are logic based rather then emotional. I have a rule I live by “take everything for what it is.” If its BS and you know it no need to point it out to be BS because either everyone knows it or will figure it out and to point it out would be excess. If it’s the truth then great those are far and few between when it comes from most peoples mouths. Here is my equation for life including my kung fu. Heart+Intent+Logical Thought+Humility+ (Small Amount of ) Arrogance+ Well Rounded= A good life. Now like I said there always the X variable which no one knows or can control but it is our personal equation for life that allows us to counter and moved pass the X variable. Just that’s just my opinion. People can say what they want but eventually everything has to be tested. Past the Darwin mold is simple cause and effect. Effect = “You lost”, Cause= “to many reasons to list.” The strong will survive through cause and effect and the weak will not. I agree with you that in order to compete against the best who ever that may be you have to train like them and better. Its NOT the style its about who wants it more me or you.

Shen Zhou

[ShaolinTiger00]

My theory goes that the more modern arts don't have anything up on the traditional arts, except that for the way they train.

I strongly disagree. Training method is only one variable in the problems with tma.

*edit* I should elaborate since I've got a little time.

Problem : a guy wants to beat you up.

TMA solution: throw a bunch of strikes at him until he stops.

MMA solution: use a systematic approach to dominate, control and negate him.

TMA's have little or no overall strategy for thier system of fighting. they just go from one technique to another until they "find gold". hardly well thought out. (watch them rally"but a fight is chaos!", to which I'll shoot right back, "Then why are you practicing pre-arranged forms?")


btw: Red, you should read "Mastering Jujitsu" by Renzo Gracie & John Danaher (kinetic press) I'm not a huge Renzo fan, or a bjj zombie either, but the book's title is a little misleading. It is a book about MMA and mma theory and IMHO few people write in such an unbias and simple yet truthful manner than Danaher. He does an excellent job into breaking down the history, theory, technique and reality of a fight. I think it is a must have for anyone interested in unarmed fighting.

[red5angel]

can you expound ST?

Shen Zhou, that was a small list of the people, not an exhaustive one by far.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I edited my prior post.

I also have more to add but am a little strapped for time.

Along with just the physical training, removal of much of the tma worhtless techniques.. tma'ers have to drop the costumes, the ego, the belts, the grandmaster ego etc...

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by red5angel
forget all the qi crap

Ironically, I think alot of the problem here is deviation from traditional ideas, rather than dogmatism about it. Or, more accurately, confusion about what the traditional ideas actually are. Internal methods taught traditionally are extremely pragmatic and traditional classes tended to be informal. In America, an American's preconceived notions on what traditional means replaced what it actually meant, and alot of that got rejected. Cultural things like belts, uniforms, and titles - and technical things like believing you don't have to work hard when you're "internal" are part of the contemporary American kungfu culture, not the traditional Chinese one.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Problem : a guy wants to beat you up.

TMA solution: throw a bunch of strikes at him until he stops.

MMA solution: use a systematic approach to dominate, control and negate him.

TMA's have little or no overall strategy for thier system of fighting. they just go from one technique to another until they "find gold".

This is just plainly incorrect. The technique of traditional chinese internal martial arts, for example, are entirely based on the theory of domination. They also contain explicit training methods to develop overall strategies - an obvious example would be the push hands paradigm central to taijiquan.

I think you're just distinguishing between good and bad instruction here, rather than traditional versus modern (or perhaps between striking and grappling based arts).

[ShaolinTiger00]

. The technique of traditional chinese internal martial arts, for example, are entirely based on the theory of domination.

domination by random striking until your opponent stops.

Please show me an overall philosophy or concept that guides CMA in any manner that could parallel judo, without a doubt the "father" or modern combat (bjj, sambo, sanshou, mma) who's "maximum efficiency thru minimum effort" has proven to be a complete truism.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
domination by random striking until your opponent stops.

No. Domination of position, posture, and balance.

[Ray Pina]

I salute you. You said so much right; I wish I posted all of that.

[red5angel]

actually I've seen the book ST, I'll have to pick it up!


I'm having a hard time following you on the whole systematic approach. Can you give me an example on both sides?

Chris M. - What do you think the western view of traditional has hurt the study of traditional arts? Can you provide some direct examples?

[brothernumber9]

wing chun has center line and structure theories. one example of interperetation is to protect the center line and break the opponent's after or during which a continuous attack is followed, a simple way being chain punches. There are specific entry and set up techniques with common and practiced follow ups.

Hung Ga has something slightly similar with 12 bridge hands and includes a whole avenue particular to joint isolations and take downs not so dissimilar to Judo.

Hsing Yi has fairly clear theories and principles on entry, follow ups, and finishes.

not to say that these systems elaborately cover all ranges. Just to show that there are fairly specific theories pertaining to initiating, controlling, and finishing a fight in some TCMA's.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by red5angel
What do you think the western view of traditional has hurt the study of traditional arts?

I shouldn't say "hurt", because people should be free to explore what they want in the arts, so long as they're doing it honestly.

But I personally like training with no pretense: just a bunch of guys having fun, working hard, training together. This is a very familiar approach in the tradition of martial arts. But people have a fantasy of what "traditional" means, which includes an awful lot of pretense, and takes precedence over that reality. This creates a contemporary cultural phenomenon which only goes by the name of traditional.

It's telling to watch some of the most famous traditional chinese instructors happily mixing it up with their students and wearing normal clothes, then the next day seeing an anglo-saxon American wearing a faux Mandarin outfit, insisting on being called grandfather in chinese, and being uncomfortable even touching any but his senior students.

[Pork Chop]

just to kinda back up what bro #9 said, I see a lot of the principles and methods (faht) of the chinese martial arts providing a pretty specific game plan.

So I'm not exactly sure where you were going with that ST00.

My complaint about it is a little different.

Take for example the bridging and gate theories that are so prevalent in southern TCMA.

So much time is spent in learning how to apply it against other people who do it.

With bridging and gate theory, this means expecting someone to want to engage first, that they'd be shooting for some kind of trapping range; versus someone who plays with ranges, uses noncommitted attacks, fakes, and other things that aren't so common to TCMA.

I believe the theories can feasibly be re-worked and re-tooled to work in dealing with someone who has more of a "modern" (ie non-TCMA) approach; with a lot of time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears spent sparring through it.

But who actually does it?

And those who try to do it, how many of them actually find people of other styles to work with to do the retooling? versus aping what a boxer, muay thai guy, bjjer, wrestler, judoka, etc would do in a totally inept and unrealistic way?

I imagine someone good at bridges, gates and what-not would look somewhat like a sloppy, pawing- type boxer/kickboxer, who would spontaneously let loose with some powerful short punches, throws, and the occasional standing sub.

Of course, we'll probably differ in the view point that something that looks "sloppy" or "different" according to style-centric aesthetics is or isn't "bad". Similar to the Judo vs Shuai Chao discussions we had earlier.

Just like dropping the lead hand in boxing; it may look terrible from your technical background, but if you know enough of the counters and can make it work, no sense in not using it if you like it. Just hope you're good enough to handle someone trying to exploit it.

We do see eye-to-eye however on focusing on those techniques that you can use within your given framework, and dropping (or at least not working on) those techniques that could only come off in the movies.

[red5angel]

christopher m. - ok I see what your saying. I tend to ignore those trappings as well. When I say traditional, atleast on this thread, I'm talking about some of the traditionals ideas to training methodology. I'm not a firm believer in Qi, so there is a lot of the standing around in certain postures you could throw out in my mind, unless you consider it a form of meditation to quiet the mind and body, then it makes some sense, if not over emphasized. Weight training should be ok, internal or external, but of course everything in moderation.
To be a good fighter competition or no, I believe you have to be in really good shape. I just recently came across a few photos of a tops student of a JKD school. The guy was about 400 lbs or so. I have a hard time believing someone like that could be an effective martial artist, but tha's just my opinion.
I believe that to be a good artist you need to apply yourself with intensity and devotion. Alot of people pay concepts like that by word of mouth, but don't spend enough time training or conditioning their bodies and minds. The "hippy" kungfu movement has sort of taken over and you have a whole lot of those guys who want to wear the faux mandarin outfit, and be called sifu, or whatnot. Some of these same guys are the type who **** and moan about how MMA guys are all meatheads and don't understand their art or them. I don't understand them and I'm a traditional martial artist.
Don't get too bogged down in the tradition of things but look to more modern methodologies when we train. We don't always go to a traditional chinese doctor to heal our ailments.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by red5angel
I'm not a firm believer in Qi, so there is a lot of the standing around in certain postures you could throw out in my mind

I've never been sure what "belief in qi" has to do with training. Training qigong doesn't consist of saying "I believe in qi!" any more than weightlifting consists of saying "I believe in anabolism!"

You train or you don't. The names and rationalizing you give to the training is academic.

Posture training is nothing mystical. Anyone teaching it to you should have shown you hands on what it does in a martial context, and directed you to do it yourself so you know what you're doing.

[rogue]

TMA's have little or no overall strategy for thier system of fighting. they just go from one technique to another until they "find gold". hardly well thought out. (watch them rally"but a fight is chaos!", to which I'll shoot right back, "Then why are you practicing pre-arranged forms?") Add me to the disagree list. I have seen what you are saying but it's not an obsolute. You could say that many teach martial arts in a half ass fashion and leave out the strategy. Musical kata is so much more entertaining.

[red5angel]

posture training is mostly what I am talking about. I've never seen any real good reason for it. Some deep stances build the legs, but you can do that through weights and a proper cardio workout as well in less time and you get more bang for your buck. However I have been told on a few occasions that it is for building up qi. an exercise I have so far found little use for.

[Christopher M]

I'm not sure what you're expecting: you're not going to learn anything speculating about it. A good teacher would show you what it was for - and then there's no need to speculate.

The same as any other training method.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel
I'm under the impression that since the rise of so called NHB fighting, and the success of grappling and arts like muy thai, that some people believe these arts to be superior because of the evidence provided in the arenas so far.

My theory goes that the more modern arts don't have anything up on the traditional arts, except that for the way they train. If traditional arts adopted more modern training methods - forget all the qi crap and start weightlifting for strength, encourage the use of modern training equipment and methods and some real hardcore training as well as cross training.

I didn't read past this, nor have I read any of the other posts, because it sounds like a re-hash of the same old argument. However, this theory you pose is the same thing we've been saying in posts of this nature for months...

[red5angel]

7*, you and I have been on this board long enough to have seen about 90% of the posts that are posted everyday. It's a forum so every once in a while let's discuss whether it be something we've heard or not. I often find new perspective in rehashed discussion. Atleast it's on topic.



I'm not sure what you're expecting: you're not going to learn anything speculating about it. A good teacher would show you what it was for - and then there's no need to speculate.


Christopher m - Maybe your not getting what I mean. these postures, etc.. are designed to cultivate qi, in a certain why, by standing or moving through them. That's it, no secret techniques, no super grand ultimate move, just stand there in this pose for the next 30 minutes, you should feel our hands and feet tingle....

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by red5angel
these postures, etc.. are designed to cultivate qi, in a certain why, by standing or moving through them.

Is this your view? This sounds like an odd theory for someone who isn't a firm believer in qi.


just stand there in this pose for the next 30 minutes, you should feel our hands and feet tingle

This doesn't sound like a very good training method.

That's like if you invited your friend over to straddle you and you sat there rubbing each other for 30 minutes and expected to learn BJJ that way. I don't think you'd learn BJJ very well (but it might still be fun, depending on who your friend is).

Luckily, a good BJJ instructor probably isn't going to advise you to do this. He's more likely to explain use of the hips, use of space, base, and pressure. He's likely to give you drills which supplement these skills. He's likely to give you techniques to practice, and progressively incorporate into your practice. That way, even though it might look like you and your training partner and just straddling each other, pushing and rolling around a bit - actually you're doing alot of specific things to build up skill.

I'm not sure why you'd expect any less from a traditional chinese instructor teaching traditional chinese methods.


That's it, no secret techniques, no super grand ultimate move

Definitely! No secrets, just straight forward training.

[Shooter]

hilarious...D@MN! :p

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by BMore Banga
...Take for example the bridging and gate theories that are so prevalent in southern TCMA.

So much time is spent in learning how to apply it against other people who do it.

With bridging and gate theory, this means expecting someone to want to engage first, that they'd be shooting for some kind of trapping range; versus someone who plays with ranges, uses noncommitted attacks, fakes, and other things that aren't so common to TCMA.

I believe the theories can feasibly be re-worked and re-tooled to work in dealing with someone who has more of a "modern" (ie non-TCMA) approach; with a lot of time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears spent sparring through it.

But who actually does it?

And those who try to do it, how many of them actually find people of other styles to work with to do the retooling? versus aping what a boxer, muay thai guy, bjjer, wrestler, judoka, etc would do in a totally inept and unrealistic way?

I imagine someone good at bridges, gates and what-not would look somewhat like a sloppy, pawing- type boxer/kickboxer, who would spontaneously let loose with some powerful short punches, throws, and the occasional standing sub.

Of course, we'll probably differ in the view point that something that looks "sloppy" or "different" according to style-centric aesthetics is or isn't "bad". Similar to the Judo vs Shuai Chao discussions we had earlier.



Good Insight mate. Bridge fighting can get confused by non-committed attacks (feints, footwork, etc) but a cool head and continued perserverence pays off. Sooner or later, most guys figure they have your measure, and comit to a forceful attack (the only kind that worries you), and your training comes to the fore. And yes, it does look sloppy.

As for TCMA being a series of strikes until the guy is done, well, only if you ignore the domination, engagement and entrapment strategies, which may account for 90% of the encounter.

I'm still having trouble with the difference between sport and life and death. Most real fights start with "BANG" black and flashing lights in your head, changes in the horizon line, and a vague feeling that you are touching someone that is not standing still, intent on continuing the onslaught... And you're already hurting.

Instinct and touch and nasty-a$$ evil maiming techniques work too. Phoenix fist under the eye cuts like a knife, your fingers slip in and you pull the face off. How do you train that?

All this intense physical training is great, but you guys will get old one day. Knees and backs and ankles wear out. What are you supposed to do? Golf Fu?

[CD Lee]

Redangel5 said


posture training is mostly what I am talking about. I've never seen any real good reason for it. Some deep stances build the legs, but you can do that through weights and a proper cardio workout as well in less time and you get more bang for your buck. However I have been told on a few occasions that it is for building up qi. an exercise I have so far found little use for.



Well how experienced are you at stance training? If you are standing there waiting for Qi to zap! into your body filling up your dantien, then I can understand your dissillusionment.

We stand to learn first to have proper alignments in the body, a good structure. Then also, over time (years btw...), release tension in the body to various degrees. Also to build strength. As you release tension, you can root much much better and have a better base to work your techniques from. You will never know how much tension you carry in your body while supposedly still and relaxed, until you actually release it. Up to that point, you didn't even know it was there. At first, you can't do it because your physical strength will not hold out until you build up some endurance for that particular posture.

Once you learn to relax and other things in your standing, you can take elements from standing practice, and itegrate them into your techniques. It is more than calming the mind. It becomes a physical response that you do without thinking. Obviously, this type of thing must be worked on over years.

Those who have derived benefits from standing practice, would be friggin insane to keep doing it if it did not work.

[rogue]

Your room is ready. (http://b.f11.org/photo/Pilgrim/) :D

[red5angel]

Is this your view? This sounds like an odd theory for someone who isn't a firm believer in qi.

no, just what I've been taught and told.


This doesn't sound like a very good training method.


exactly ;)


I'm not sure why you'd expect any less from a traditional chinese instructor teaching traditional chinese methods.

right and you still get all the ideas behind how to use the body and each part of it to accomplish the task at hand. Since I don't buy into qi however, alot of posture training to me seems a waste of time, and there are plenty of so called TMA schools doing it.

CD Lee, some of thie things you are saying makes sense and I've heard them before. I"m not opposed to it but let's take building strength as an example - why stand in a few positions for long periods of time when you can weight train and run for a faster and better response? The stillness thing I can agree with, the relaxation part.

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
Most real fights start with "BANG" black and flashing lights in your head, changes in the horizon line, and a vague feeling that you are touching someone that is not standing still, intent on continuing the onslaught... And you're already hurting.

Sounds an awful lot like my first ring experience. :p


Instinct and touch and nasty-a$$ evil maiming techniques work too. Phoenix fist under the eye cuts like a knife, your fingers slip in and you pull the face off. How do you train that?

As lkfmdc states in his thread relating to this subject; there are ways to train a simplified/safetied version; keeping it in the mix of techniques for free sparring, and then just making slight modifications when it's go time.


All this intense physical training is great, but you guys will get old one day. Knees and backs and ankles wear out. What are you supposed to do? Golf Fu?

I feel old now :D and I hate golf, so I'm gonna ride this mutha till the wheels fall off!

And if I ever get so crippled I can't move, I'm gonna be the meanest, gun-totin, wheelchair-bound sumabittch that ever terrorized the old folks home. :p

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by red5angel
no, just what I've been taught and told.

Well, in the words of the great Lee (Spike, not Bruce): "Don't believe the hype!"


Since I don't buy into qi however, alot of posture training to me seems a waste of time

Like I said though, what does belief in qi have to do with training?

Training is training, not reciting what you do or don't believe in.

[GroungJing]

I’m not sure there is a problem with traditional martial arts. I guess there could be, but the way I see it it’s a reality problem. Most traditional martial arts were forged on a battlefield. There main function was to inflict deadly force upon an assailant.
Very few people train in the original intent, instead we spar with pads and strike non-lethal areas of the body. That kind of sparing is really at a disadvantage against submissive fighting.

Honestly, who hear trains to use an eagle claw the way it was indented? Who here would in truthfulness kill someone in a fight using that technique? Very few of us, we like to say if it were a life or death situation then yes we would. But we all know that what we do in practice we will do in a fight. And what do most of us do …we spar. With pads without, it doesn’t matter. So you have a good left hook, what happens when it doesn’t work …..Whatever the reason..(guy is mammoth, has an iron jaw , berserk on drugs or knows how to defend himself and wrestle you to the ground) whatever the reason. I believe unless you use the traditional art as indented you shortchange yourself and the system.

If we are using mma as a gage to rate the effectiveness of traditional arts then I believe our gage is faulty. By using the term mma I’m referring to the style of submissive grappling so popular today. For if they are so superior to other arts for example, Shaolin wushu why didn’t Shaolin wushu die out? Why didn’t Ryu Kyu Todejutsu (precursor to karate do) die out to the jujitsu influenced samurai? Why did some samurai train only in atemi waza dominated systems? Note I’m asking question about an era in time when they actually used this stuff in life or death situations.

How barbarous the world would be if traditional arts used their main attributes in mma arts tournaments. Submissive grappling wouldn’t look they way it does now nor would it dominate….I’m not saying traditional arts would dominate either …much more like an even very bloody exchange would take place…

If you’re a submissive fighter and know how to cover up what really do you have to fear against someone who isn’t going to use deadly force against you?

[rogue]

1) People who are training for the love of the art aren't really planning on using it to fight, they can then spend time learning esoteric weapons, culture and take their time doing it.

2) People who train for self defense will not likely get to use their skills. They can spend their time dreaming up scenerio after scenerio to defend themselves against and also scare themselves.

3) Those who intend to compete know that they will meet someone else with the intention of beating them. They have to spend their time learning the most effective techniques in the most efficient manner possible.

4) There is a fourth group but they are small in number and very specialized. They are LEOs, and some military units that may use h2h in their line of work.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by GroungJing
I’m not sure there is a problem with traditional martial arts. I guess there could be, but the way I see it it’s a reality problem. Most traditional martial arts were forged on a battlefield.

really? which ones? seriously. My impression was that most were village styles. They were used in combat, but not necessarily in wars.


here main function was to inflict deadly force upon an assailant.
Very few people train in the original intent, instead we spar with pads and strike non-lethal areas of the body. That kind of sparing is really at a disadvantage against submissive fighting.


I disagree. since we're talking about history, let's look at judo. Kano used his judo to destroy nearly every jujutsu school he came in contact with. he eliminated some of the lethal techniques and created the sparring format. The practical use of the techniques against resisting partners is what made them so effective. If I'm not mistaken, his group even killed a few jujutsu guys at tournaments.

Honestly, who hear trains to use an eagle claw the way it was indented? Who here would in truthfulness kill someone in a fight using that technique? Very few of us, we like to say if it were a life or death situation then yes we would. But we all know that what we do in practice we will do in a fight. And what do most of us do …we spar. With pads without, it doesn’t matter. So you have a good left hook, what happens when it doesn’t work …..Whatever the reason..(guy is mammoth, has an iron jaw , berserk on drugs or knows how to defend himself and wrestle you to the ground) whatever the reason. I believe unless you use the traditional art as indented you shortchange yourself and the system.

sparring is the closest you will be able to safely come to a confrontation. Sparring itself is fine, but what format are you sparring in? If you are point sparring, then yes, I agree with what you said. But full contact sparring is a different story. I judo competitions, I have thrown people that outweigh me. I KNOW I can do it in the street. In the ring, I've knocked people out - I KNOW I can do it in the street. When that left hook doesn't work, I do the same thing you would do - follow it with something else. What do you do when that eagle claw doesn't work?

the japanese have a saying - ichi go; ichi-e it means "one encounter, one chance" when applied realistically though, how often does that happen in fighting? you're not gonna get the one punch kill or the easy eye gouge.

If we are using mma as a gage to rate the effectiveness of traditional arts then I believe our gage is faulty.

If you have a better way, please tell us. And, it's not a gauge of the art itself, it's a gauge of how effecte YOU are with your art. If you can use it, you do well.


By using the term mma I’m referring to the style of submissive grappling so popular today.

that's not mma - that's submission grappling. mma means mixed martial arts - a combination of striking and grappling.

For if they are so superior to other arts for example, Shaolin wushu why didn’t Shaolin wushu die out?

that's no gauge of superiority or effectiveness, only of what people have had fun doing. tae bo hasn't died out either...


Why didn’t Ryu Kyu Todejutsu (precursor to karate do) die out to the jujitsu influenced samurai?

jujutsu for the most part is indeed dead. there were over 700 styles of jujutsu, where are they now?

Why did some samurai train only in atemi waza dominated systems?

because then they needed it. Also, they had not thought of another way to train. Why were these super effective guys beaten by kano's guys?

How barbarous the world would be if traditional arts used their main attributes in mma arts tournaments. Submissive grappling wouldn’t look they way it does now nor would it dominate….I’m not saying traditional arts would dominate either …much more like an even very bloody exchange would take place…

doubtful. In the early UFCs, eye gouges were not illegal. If I gouged you and you couldn't continue, I won. Even in the contests of today, kicks to the knee are allowed, pressure point striking is allowed, striking downed opponents, etc. the subminssion locks are breaks, but you stop before the joint is broken. What are you looking for that would give people some automatic edge?

and actually, if I have you on the ground and controlled, I can eye gouge, pressure point strike, etc. more effectively than you can, when you try against a fully mobile opponent...

[mantis108]

It is not that TCMA training is a completely different animal. It has the same "modern" training concept such as the I-method (Introduction, Isolation, and Intergration). The volcaburary is undoubtedly different. Unfortunately most styles are stuck at introduction, which is form practice mostly. Many styles have lost the drilling methods that are essential to Isolation. The safe way to practice the techniques, which in some cases are brutal, are lost. For example, you can practice delivering a throat grab with combat speed and stength (re: lively) in a drill safely. It requires the partner to time your grab so that he can tighten the neck muscle while breathing freely to protect himself from serious harm. It will also require a good structure (re: good stance). The downside is that a lot of minor injury can happen (bruises & scratches around the neck) not to mention if someone is gung ho about it, accident will happen. Now do you want to be responsible for some gung ho weekend warriors if something terrible happens? That's one of the thing that pushed TCMA teachers not to go all the way. It is a very simple and almost common sense thing to drill but it would be deemed as " secrets" and too deadly. So, this we will have to bag it in the Sifus' pockets. ;)

As for TCMA don't have a strategy and they appear to be just strike and strike, which translates to poor performance of intergration, that happen mostly because of the poor understanding of combinations. Also the poor understanding of the sport sparring game rules. The point sparring rule IMHO is so FUBAR that TCMA should not be considering adopting that format in the first place. TCMA teachers have hardly worked on the transition of their arts into the sports. There's simply not a blue print of that exist at all for a long long time. So in the west you have some Kwoon that wanted to attend tournaments host by Karate or TKD, you will have to go by their rules. Again that's poor intergration due to poor planning of attending events. If you are not true to yourself, how could you expect to perform well? I am not surprise that post-modern Kung Fu fair poorly against almost anything.

TCMA wisdoms are still profound and good schools are still out there. Finding it would be hard though.

Mantis108

[SevenStar]

good post.

[GroungJing]

Wow I'm speechless...you must have been in a bad mood when you read my post or your anal retentive?

Maybe you are one of those submission wanna bes

Maybe a troll? let me guess you come here to lord over all us CMA guys?


[QUOTE]"really? which ones? seriously. My impression was that most were village styles. They were used in combat, but not necessarily in wars."

Seriously......Were you looking for a verbal fight? Because I can think of many.... for example, Eagle claw, Xingyiquan just to name a few...and were did you think those villigers got their knowledge from...? For example Chen style Taijiquan. How about Ryu kyu tode jutsu....from ousted samurai from Okinawa


"I disagree. since we're talking about history, let's look at judo. Kano used his judo to destroy nearly every jujutsu school he came in contact with. he eliminated some of the lethal techniques and created the sparring format. The practical use of the techniques against resisting partners is what made them so effective. If I'm not mistaken, his group even killed a few jujutsu guys at tournaments."

LOL ……You just contradicted yourself; samurai’s forged jujitsu in battle. Judo was a by-product of jujitsu. Nage waza are the same in both styles with respect to minor difference in styles. Yes there were a couple of unfortunate accidents (deaths) during these ryu against ryu, a couple of them were the result of some vicious atemi waza!! Striking and kicking..... imagine that!


“ sparring is the closest you will be able to safely come to a confrontation. Sparring itself is fine, but what format are you sparring in? If you are point sparring, then yes, I agree with what you said. But full contact sparring is a different story. I judo competitions, I have thrown people that outweigh me. I KNOW I can do it in the street. In the ring, I've knocked people out - I KNOW I can do it in the street. When that left hook doesn't work, I do the same thing you would do - follow it with something else. What do you do when that eagle claw doesn't work?


Like a I haven't competed in judo competitions. I was into shoot fighting in the late 1980's before is was macho (just dated myself.....oops) these are hardly displays of courage and are just as synthetic as sparring standing up. So what was your point?



"the japanese have a saying - ichi go; ichi-e it means "one encounter, one chance" when applied realistically though, how often does that happen in fighting? you're not gonna get the one punch kill or the easy eye gouge. “

Wow ichi go; ichi I'm impressed, like I have't heard that before....thank you for the instruction.....I to have dabble in budo. Explain to me what a knockout is? then explain to me what would happen if the same force was applied to somone's throat, neck etc...


"If you have a better way, please tell us. And, it's not a gauge of the art itself, it's a gauge of how effecte YOU are with your art. If you can use it, you do well."

I wasn’t implying that I had a better way, I was stating I don't think traditional arts have a "modern problem" people often confuse mma as reality when its no different than any other sparing



"that's no gauge of superiority or effectiveness, only of what people have had fun doing. tae bo hasn't died out either.."

You missed the point! No! You totally missed what I was talking about...I guess you were still fixated blasting me with your internet mma dogma


"jujutsu for the most part is indeed dead. there were over 700 styles of jujutsu, where are they now?"

Apparently you have never been to Japan, for if you had then you would know many of those 700 jutsu are still alive and thriving......


"Because then they needed it. Also, they had not thought of another way to train. Why were these super effective guys beaten by kano's guys?"

Were they? How many ryu participated? All 700? Wow that must have been one hell of a tournament. Were was Ushiba's instructor and the ryu he belong to? He was one hell of a fighter in his day. By the way, since you are nit picking my post were did you get the figure of 700 from?


"doubtful. In the early UFCs, eye gouges were not illegal. If I gouged you and you couldn't continue, I won. bla bla bla bla What are you looking for that would give people some automatic edge? and actually, bla bla bla bla ....try against a fully mobile opponent...

After years of shoot fighting I didn't know this... “Sarcastic grin in progress”.....Where was the throats being crushed, where were the legs getting broken in these no holds barred reality fighting events...... reality? naw.....heck we had injuries in shoot fighting but no different than anybody else. There hasn’t even been a death that I know of in the UFC , maybe one in some third world country, but that doesn’t mean a thing, I know of a deaths in boxing, kick boxing and traditional martial arts….so I’m confused as to what your saying here, maybe you were attempting to enlighten me.....I don't know

But reality is reality...the go to the ground and mount you assailant will get you in serious trouble every time if its a real life or death situation...I think your confusing barn yard brawling with reality... The worse beating I got was when I believed my own hype and took a man to the ground in a bar...seems he had friends and all of them were deadly serious about teaching me a lesson.

You got friends? yes....everybody got friends. Are they going to stand by and let someone put you in a ude garami, juji gatame or even a hadaka jime. If it's life or death the moment you squeal the guy is in trouble. If it isn't life or death then you are barn yard brawling.

Are you aware of how vulnerable you are to others fighting like this? Or do you believe your own hype as i did?. What about a guy with a knife you going to grapple with him too?

Since my encounter my belief in shoot fighting has change.... you could say altered by a reality check..... I no longer think its the be all and end all...

Also at no time did I say submission fighting or mma was inferior to traditional, I said "a fifty fifty exchange would probably be the outcome with a totally different look to the fighting"
Hmmmmm....


I'm trying to figure out what were you trying to attempt with your words....

elighten me?

Show me how educated in the ways of Budo?



you came like you wanted to
dominate me with your words?

Last time I checked this wasn't a dog kennel

go verbal hump someone else..........

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by GroungJing
I’m not sure there is a problem with traditional martial arts. I guess there could be, but the way I see it it’s a reality problem. Most traditional martial arts were forged on a battlefield. There main function was to inflict deadly force upon an assailant.
Very few people train in the original intent, instead we spar with pads and strike non-lethal areas of the body. That kind of sparing is really at a disadvantage against submissive fighting.

Honestly, who hear trains to use an eagle claw the way it was indented? Who here would in truthfulness kill someone in a fight using that technique? Very few of us, we like to say if it were a life or death situation then yes we would. But we all know that what we do in practice we will do in a fight. And what do most of us do …we spar. With pads without, it doesn’t matter. So you have a good left hook, what happens when it doesn’t work …..Whatever the reason..(guy is mammoth, has an iron jaw , berserk on drugs or knows how to defend himself and wrestle you to the ground) whatever the reason. I believe unless you use the traditional art as indented you shortchange yourself and the system.

If we are using mma as a gage to rate the effectiveness of traditional arts then I believe our gage is faulty. By using the term mma I’m referring to the style of submissive grappling so popular today. For if they are so superior to other arts for example, Shaolin wushu why didn’t Shaolin wushu die out? Why didn’t Ryu Kyu Todejutsu (precursor to karate do) die out to the jujitsu influenced samurai? Why did some samurai train only in atemi waza dominated systems? Note I’m asking question about an era in time when they actually used this stuff in life or death situations.

How barbarous the world would be if traditional arts used their main attributes in mma arts tournaments. Submissive grappling wouldn’t look they way it does now nor would it dominate….I’m not saying traditional arts would dominate either …much more like an even very bloody exchange would take place…

If you’re a submissive fighter and know how to cover up what really do you have to fear against someone who isn’t going to use deadly force against you?

i dont know how you trian. but i train eagle claw to take them down and out. then follow up with a couple hits to make sure that person isnt getting up. or counter and take out. my sifu was taught by my sigung. my sigung was trained by rebels during hard times and was a mercanary (so he used his kung fu in real life), and he passed that trianing onto him and he is passing it onto a few select students (myself included). so is this the way traditional arts were suppossed to be used? maybe. im not a violent man and niether is my sifu. do i know that i could hurt someone if i had to. probably. im content with my teachings and the way i train and learn. i feel it is traditional like the way it was meant to be, for combative purposes.

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by GroungJing
How about Ryu kyu tode jutsu....from ousted samurai from Okinawa

Last I heard the Japanese still owned Okinawa.
If you mean that the farmer martial arts that were designed as an attempt to prevent samurai for testing the sharpness of their blades on Okinawan necks, I think that their effectiveness was more due to creating a situation of inconvenience; rather than somehow overwhelming the armed swordsmen.

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb


i dont know how you trian. but i train eagle claw to take them down and out. then follow up with a couple hits to make sure that person isnt getting up. or counter and take out. my sifu was taught by my sigung. my sigung was trained by rebels during hard times and was a mercanary (so he used his kung fu in real life), and he passed that trianing onto him and he is passing it onto a few select students (myself included). so is this the way traditional arts were suppossed to be used? maybe. im not a violent man and niether is my sifu. do i know that i could hurt someone if i had to. probably. im content with my teachings and the way i train and learn. i feel it is traditional like the way it was meant to be, for combative purposes.


I wasn’t condoning violence with my original post. I was stressing my opinion that I don’t think there is nothing wrong with traditional arts.

Having done that at one time in my life (shoot fighting) I’ve learned a great fighter is a great fighter regardless of style! Have you ever seen Frank Shamrock box? I have and he’s one hell of a great boxer when he puts his mind to it! Yet he’s noted as a great submission fighter. These people would excell regaurdless of style. So for a group or an individual to believe that a certain style or way of sparring somehow gives them the upper hand over another traditional or non-traditional art is foolish. In my honest opinion and again just my opinion!!!!!! I think traditional arts are probably better suited for actual violence in the real world. Do they make better fighters in the ring…. depends on what ring your talking about and what rules…last time I checked every ring or octagon had rules, so it depends.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by GroungJing



I wasn’t condoning violence with my original post. I was stressing my opinion that I don’t think there is nothing wrong with traditional arts.

Having done that at one time in my life (shoot fighting) I’ve learned a great fighter is a great fighter regardless of style! Have you ever seen Frank Shamrock box? I have and he’s one hell of a great boxer when he puts his mind to it! Yet he’s noted as a great submission fighter. These people would excell regaurdless of style. So for a group or an individual to believe that a certain style or way of sparring somehow gives them the upper hand over another traditional or non-traditional art is foolish. In my honest opinion and again just my opinion!!!!!! I think traditional arts are probably better suited for actual violence in the real world. Do they make better fighters in the ring…. depends on what ring your talking about and what rules…last time I checked every ring or octagon had rules, so it depends.

okay i see now. so you're saying if someones got the fighters edge they got it. if they dont they probably never will? i can agree to that. my kung fu brother has the fighters edge and fighting comes more naturally to him while me, i jave to train twice as hard jsut to get some of the simple things because i dont have it. thats what you're saying right?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by GroungJing
Wow I'm speechless...you must have been in a bad mood when you read my post or your anal retentive?

Maybe you are one of those submission wanna bes

Maybe a troll? let me guess you come here to lord over all us CMA guys?

none of the above. Points for the attempt though.



Seriously......Were you looking for a verbal fight? Because I can think of many.... for example, Eagle claw, Xingyiquan just to name a few...and were did you think those villigers got their knowledge from...? For example Chen style Taijiquan. How about Ryu kyu tode jutsu....from ousted samurai from Okinawa

that's a few out of how many styles? I would still maintain the argument that the majority were not created/forged for the battlefield.

doesn't matter where the villagers got their knowledge. mindset is a beautiful thing. If you trace the knowledge of anyone on this forum, you will trace it back to these same arts you are referencing. just as their skill level doesn't reflect that of the villagers, likely the villagers did not reflect that of the warriors...they weren't warriors, after all.



LOL ……You just contradicted yourself; samurai’s forged jujitsu in battle. Judo was a by-product of jujitsu.

Of course it is, but that's actually irrelevant. Judo became a new style of itself, revolutionizing the way people trained. It doesn't live in the shadow of jujutsu.


Nage waza are the same in both styles with respect to minor difference in styles.

I agree with that.

Yes there were a couple of unfortunate accidents (deaths) during these ryu against ryu, a couple of them were the result of some vicious atemi waza!! Striking and kicking..... imagine that!

are you serious? whoa!! I guess the sun even shines on a dog's arse some days...



Like a I haven't competed in judo competitions. I was into shoot fighting in the late 1980's before is was macho (just dated myself.....oops) these are hardly displays of courage and are just as synthetic as sparring standing up. So what was your point?

who mentioned courage? Since you've done it, you know that it's the closest you can safely come to testing your skills, which is exactly what I said.



Wow ichi go; ichi I'm impressed, like I have't heard that before....thank you for the instruction.....

glad I could be of assistance.


Explain to me what a knockout is? then explain to me what would happen if the same force was applied to somone's throat, neck etc...

and herein is the value of the quote you know so much about... ONE encounter - ONE chance. what are the odds that your ONE shot is going to be that fatal blow to the throat? it's not that likely.



I wasn’t implying that I had a better way, I was stating I don't think traditional arts have a "modern problem" people often confuse mma as reality when its no different than any other sparing

looking at the way alot of places train today, you see NO problem at all? this isn't an issue of "seeing mma as reality"


Apparently you have never been to Japan, for if you had then you would know many of those 700 jutsu are still alive and thriving......


so, during the period from edo to meiji, between the banning of training and the lack of a need for the warrior arts due to peace time, many of the styles still survived? Out of curiosity, which, and what defines thriving? And you're right, by the way - never been there. I've got some friends there though and do hope to visit in the near future.



Were they? How many ryu participated? All 700? Wow that must have been one hell of a tournament. Were was Ushiba's instructor and the ryu he belong to? He was one hell of a fighter in his day. By the way, since you are nit picking my post were did you get the figure of 700 from?


there were 15 or 16 matches...not sure if any were from the same ryu - for this one tourney anyway - the one in 1886. Considering that saigo's dad trained ueshiba's teacher for a while - I bet he was somewhere around. He belonged to daito ryu, supposedly...

the 700 comes from what I've learned via training in judo and from research on the net. I've no clue what the exact number is, only that it was greater than 700.

After years of shoot fighting I didn't know this... “Sarcastic grin in progress”.....Where was the throats being crushed, where were the legs getting broken in these no holds barred reality fighting events...... reality? naw.....heck we had injuries in shoot fighting but no different than anybody else. There hasn’t even been a death that I know of in the UFC , maybe one in some third world country, but that doesn’t mean a thing, I know of a deaths in boxing, kick boxing and traditional martial arts….so I’m confused as to what your saying here, maybe you were attempting to enlighten me.....I don't know

what I'm saying is that alot of things are alowed. since kicks to the knee are allowed, why hasn't anyone used that to break a knee? It is allowed, after all.

But reality is reality...the go to the ground and mount you assailant will get you in serious trouble every time if its a real life or death situation...I think your confusing barn yard brawling with reality...

Why do people always seem to think the only thing mma will do is take you to the ground and try to armbar you?

You got friends? yes....everybody got friends. Are they going to stand by and let someone put you in a ude garami, juji gatame or even a hadaka jime. If it's life or death the moment you squeal the guy is in trouble. If it isn't life or death then you are barn yard brawling.

Are you aware of how vulnerable you are to others fighting like this? Or do you believe your own hype as i did?. What about a guy with a knife you going to grapple with him too?

see above. as far as the guy with the knife though, I would rather be in close proximity to him, where I can control him, assuming that I can't just run away, which is preferred. While he has free use of his arm, he is more likely to be able to cut or stab you as you attempt to strike, disarm, etc. If you are in close and can control that limb...

Since my encounter my belief in shoot fighting has change.... you could say altered by a reality check..... I no longer think its the be all and end all...

I have never thoguht that. It's merely a means to an end.

Also at no time did I say submission fighting or mma was inferior to traditional, I said "a fifty fifty exchange would probably be the outcome with a totally different look to the fighting"
Hmmmmm....

I don't think I accused you of saying that. Hmmm....


I'm trying to figure out what were you trying to attempt with your words....

elighten me?

Show me how educated in the ways of Budo?

you posted, I disagreed. If you end up getting enlightened, great. If I end up getting enlightened, great.


you came like you wanted to
dominate me with your words?

you came like someone spouting the usual BS about the "lethalness" of TMA.

go verbal hump someone else..........

you know it was good to you...

[lkfmdc]

oh, where to begin??



Originally posted by GroungJing


.... for example, Eagle claw, Xingyiquan just to name a few...and were did you think those villigers got their knowledge from...? For example Chen style Taijiquan. How about Ryu kyu tode jutsu....from ousted samurai from Okinawa




Eagle Claw was NEVER a battlefield system, you can ask the Ying Jow Pai lineage if you doubt it. They claim that the original 108 locks, along with Hsing Yi, were used for close quarters drilling. The original 108 "tactics" if you will, are a LOT different than the current Ying Jow Pai system

And that being said, SHIELDS and a hooked SWORD were General Ngok Fei's key to victory, the chronicles relate they never even used the close quarters training

History is our friend, use it

As for "tode" or any other form of Karate, it is officially designated a "folk art" as in something that peasants and farmers did. Never used on a battle field

And anyone who thinks that you could use Karate vs an armoured samurai with a sword needs to have their head examined



Originally posted by GroungJing


LOL ……You just contradicted yourself; samurai’s forged jujitsu in battle. Judo was a by-product of jujitsu. Nage waza are the same in both styles with respect to minor difference in styles. Yes there were a couple of unfortunate accidents (deaths) during these ryu against ryu, a couple of them were the result of some vicious atemi waza!! Striking and kicking..... imagine that!




Again, you need to read some REAL history. Battle field jujitsu or "Ko Ryu Jutsu" was very different from the latter period "public" jujitsu that existed in unified period Japan of Kano's day. Even then, Kano CHANGED SIGNIFICANTLY what he did. The result, Judo dominated all the Jujitsu ryu, with deaths being a direct result.

Again, if you think any form of bare handed atemi is useful against armour and swords, that's a bad sign



Originally posted by GroungJing


I was into shoot fighting in the late 1980's before is was macho (just dated myself.....oops)



OK, now we can really have fun. When, where and in what organization were you doing "shoot fighting" in the "1980's"??



Originally posted by GroungJing


Apparently you have never been to Japan, for if you had then you would know many of those 700 jutsu are still alive and thriving......




This has to be the funniest comment of all. According to YOU maybe? It is not even an arguable fact that 99% of all Ko Ryu Jutsu is dead. The fact the Japanese government has to subsidize and protect the two remaining Ko Ryu (hint ONE of them is Dai Nippon Shinto Ryu) should tell you a lot about what the state of those jujitsus are today

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by lkfmdc

Again, if you think any form of bare handed atemi is useful against armour and swords, that's a bad sign



:D:D

[rogue]

As for "tode" or any other form of Karate, it is officially designated a "folk art" as in something that peasants and farmers did. Never used on a battle field.

And anyone who thinks that you could use Karate vs an armoured samurai with a sword needs to have their head examined
How dare you say such a thing!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

Even if it is true.:D The Okinawans seemed to do karate because they liked to do it. One reason why I think it could be introduced in the school system.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by GroungJing
Most traditional martial arts were forged on a battlefield. "Battlefield arts" all relied on weapons.



Originally posted by GroungJing
Very few people train in the original intent, instead we spar with pads and strike non-lethal areas of the body...
... who hear trains to use an eagle claw the way it was indented? Who here would in truthfulness kill someone in a fight using that technique? Very few of us, we like to say if it were a life or death situation then yes we would. But we all know that what we do in practice we will do in a fight. Sounds like you are saying in the "olden days" they trained with full intent to the lethal areas of the body. If so, wouldn't their "lethal" techniques have killed most of them off before they actually had a chance to use them for real?



Originally posted by GroungJing
For if they are so superior to other arts for example, Shaolin wushu why didn’t Shaolin wushu die out? Why didn’t Ryu Kyu Todejutsu (precursor to karate do) die out to the jujitsu influenced samurai? Maybe then, as now, they hid behind their "lethal" techniques and very seldom, if ever, actually tested their systems against other styles.


Originally posted by GroungJing
How barbarous the world would be if traditional arts used their main attributes in mma arts tournaments. Submissive grappling wouldn’t look they way it does now nor would it dominate…. In the first UFC's almost anything was allowed with the exception of eye gouging and fishhooking. In the first Pride events, eye gouging was allowed. During those days, when fewer rules in force and fighters were free to use more lethal techniques, SUBMISSION grappling actually dominated much more than it does today.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by GroungJing
Explain to me what a knockout is? then explain to me what would happen if the same force was applied to somone's throat, neck etc... A knockout is the brain's response to a rapid acceleration or change of direction (usually in a lateral movement) of the skull that causes the brain to forcefully impact the skull. The same force to the neck usually has less of an effect because it doesn't cause the same movement of the skull.


Originally posted by GroungJing
After years of shoot fighting...You fought Shooto for years, but you don't know submission grappling is not called submissive grappling?



Originally posted by GroungJing
The worse beating I got was when I believed my own hype and took a man to the ground in a bar...seems he had friends and all of them were deadly serious about teaching me a lesson.That would be you mistakenly choosing the wrong strategy for that situation.


Originally posted by GroungJing
What about a guy with a knife you going to grapple with him too?If you can't get away and don't have a weapon of your own, you will very soon be grappling with a determined knife wielding opponent, whether you want to or not.

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb


okay i see now. so you're saying if someones got the fighters edge they got it. if they dont they probably never will? i can agree to that. my kung fu brother has the fighters edge and fighting comes more naturally to him while me, i jave to train twice as hard jsut to get some of the simple things because i dont have it. thats what you're saying right?

yep

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by SevenStar


that's a few out of how many styles? I would still maintain the argument that the majority were not created/forged for the battlefield.

doesn't matter where the villagers got their knowledge. mindset is a beautiful thing. If you trace the knowledge of anyone on this forum, you will trace it back to these same arts you are referencing. just as their skill level doesn't reflect that of the villagers, likely the villagers did not reflect that of the warriors...they weren't warriors, after all.



Then what was the point behind your original statement?


Of course it is, but that's actually irrelevant. Judo became a new style of itself, revolutionizing the way people trained. It doesn't live in the shadow of jujutsu.


irrelevant? I guess only to you.....not to them.....I like your selective rationalization...please go on this is getting good!


are you serious? whoa!! I guess the sun even shines on a dog's arse some days...

Are you? LOL

so, during the period from edo to meiji, between the banning of training and the lack of a need for the warrior arts due to peace time, many of the styles still survived? Out of curiosity, which, and what defines thriving? And you're right, by the way - never been there. I've got some friends there though and do hope to visit in the near future.

That was obvious........yet you're telling me those ryu are irrelevant! and you haven't even been there? oh this is indeed rich Oh..... I must read on

looking at the way alot of places train today, you see NO problem at all? this isn't an issue of "seeing mma as reality"

I didn't say that However, I know of plenty of judo and jujitsu dojo that have the same problem.........so what was your point?

I don't think I accused you of saying that. Hmmm....

what does this look like?

]If you have a better way, please tell us ............

Looks like an accusation to me. But hey what do I know……..

what I'm saying is that alot of things are alowed. since kicks to the knee are allowed, why hasn't anyone used that to break a knee? It is allowed, after all.

why doesn't anyone pull hair or bite? well, when I competed in shoot fighting what came around went around. what you did to someone you got it back in spades...either by him or your next opponent looking from the sidelines because he's expecting you to pull the same crap on him ....again rules

you came like someone spouting the usual BS about the "lethalness" of TMA

And you came sounding like someone spouting the same old BS about MMA so guess were even

you know it was good to you...

Next time kiss me first!

[GroungJing]

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
A knockout is the brain's response to a rapid acceleration or change of direction (usually in a lateral movement) of the skull that causes the brain to forcefully impact the skull. The same force to the neck usually has less of an effect because it doesn't cause the same movement of the skull.

You fought Shooto for years, but you don't know submission grappling is not called submissive grappling?



That would be you mistakenly choosing the wrong strategy for that situation.



If you can't get away and don't have a weapon of your own, you will very soon be grappling with a determined knife wielding opponent, whether you want to or not.

that's my microsoft spell check at work........cause I can't type or spell worth $****! Don't forget "free style fighting" because that's what we really used to call before the term shooto became poplar

your right and that is the main point I have, its not with the application or techniques...but the total focus on the compitition and the sport. I my case I lacked experience in reality, I judged wrong....I didn't see....... a lot of mental prep in what I did was a focused on winning the next fight not assessing what danger my life was in


knifefighter if your knowledge keeps with your name....then I'm dead ...right? there is no hands on with someone who knows how to use a knife, right?. Personnally, I don't know the odds of running into a person who pulls a knife and doesn't know how to use it....maybe it's high...maybe it's not, I don't know ...still I'm now into avoidance something I never learned fighting free style....

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by GroungJing

[B]Then what was the point behind your original statement?

That not all tma were forged on the battlefiled - that very few of them were.


irrelevant? I guess only to you.....not to them.....I like your selective rationalization...please go on this is getting good!


it is irrelevant. regardless of its origin, it;s still a different style that has evolved along a different path over time.


That was obvious........yet you're telling me those ryu are irrelevant!

I think you misunderstood - I'm asking a question - what do you consider to be many styles? which are they, and what do you conseider thriving? That's more than one question, but ah well. I didn't say those ryu were irrelevant - I said they were irrelevant in the progression of judo.

I didn't say that However, I know of plenty of judo and jujitsu dojo that have the same problem.........so what was your point?

The same as it always has been. The training methods ingrained in the style are key in making the fighter. and you see plenty of bjj or jjj that's like that? If you say jjj, maybe. If you say bjj, I call bullsh!t.

what does this look like?

It's not an accusation, it's an inquisition for proof. If you have a better way, then post it here - that's hardly accusatory.

Looks like an accusation to me. But hey what do I know……..

That one's too easy...I'll leave it alone.

And you came sounding like someone spouting the same old BS about MMA so guess were even

No I didn't. I said that training methods are key. Period. It's not my fault that these methods are more common in modern styles.


Next time kiss me first!

I don't usually do the foreplay thing, but maybe if you ask me nice...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by GroungJing

I thought I read Toudi Sakugawa , Matumura or Miyagi chojun were decendants of Samurai? They were the decendents of okinawan warriors, there budo is samurai budu! 1600 Tokugawa Ieyasu defeats his rivals (Toyotomi Hideyoshi etc...) in the battle of Sekigahara. Shimazu Yoshida on the side of the losers flees and takes his clan (the Satsuma clan) and invades and defeats the Ryu Kyu Kingdoms. Sakugawa father was a defeated samurai/warriors/soilders......Peasants and farmers?

Miyagi was the son of wealthy businessmen, not samurai. His training was under higaonna - once again, not samurai.

Matsumura was a body guard to varous kings, trained in chinese boxing and te. He was from a wealthy family, but I don't think they were samurai. He was also sent abroad to train, like miyagi - they were not trained by anyone in their family.

Sakugawa also trained chinese boxing - I don't know anything about his family, however, I just did a search on his name and found out his dad was killed by bandits.



You are really out of the loop. that isn't at all what I was giving sevenstar chin music about. "

I think you have that one backwards.

[SevenStar]

why did you delete that entire reply?

I couldn't recover the parts about eagle claw, but here are the parts of your reply to LKFMDC that I could recover:




Originally posted by ground jing

As for "tode" or any other form of Karate, it is officially designated a "folk art" as in something that peasants and farmers did. Never used on a battle field.

Really? well the next time your in Japan stop by Kyoto Castle during "Golden Week" be sure to tell all those represenatives of thos irrelevant ryu's ( by sevenstar's admission) that they are dead and that they should go home!....lol

in response to lkfmdc's question about your shootfighting history:

Well back then we didn't call it shoot fighting we called shooto or free style fighting and I started doing it around the 1986 (Huston Texas ) My last match was 1991. I believe but I'm not sure, I think its turned into the Unified Shoot fighting federation. (I'm not sure on the name last time I checked I thought they change thier name to USFF, (United Shoot fighters Federation) but don't quote me on that......) The sport wasn't no where near as big as it is today ....Now I live in Michigan when I feel like playing I hang at the Tripp Acedamy

the eagle claw part was about the art being started by general yu fei, wasn't it?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb


okay i see now. so you're saying if someones got the fighters edge they got it. if they dont they probably never will? i can agree to that. my kung fu brother has the fighters edge and fighting comes more naturally to him while me, i jave to train twice as hard jsut to get some of the simple things because i dont have it. thats what you're saying right?

Some people are naturally gifted, but competence can be taught. Not every body is cut out to be professional level - not everyone is even cut out to teach - but if competence could not be taught, then most of the MA practitioners in the world need to be notified so that they can quit wasting their time...

[rogue]

As for "tode" or any other form of Karate, it is officially designated a "folk art" as in something that peasants and farmers did. Never used on a battle field.
7*, Vash posted a link to an official Okinawan cultural site, I think that's where I've heard referred to as esentially a folk art. As far as something that farmers and peasants did that's also true, but the better trained seemed to be upper-class young guys with time and money to train. I think Karate was something that was common place in the way that wrestling used to be common in America. It would be odd if they let Itosu teach a battlefield art to school children even in a watered down state.

[SevenStar]

I didn't say that - groungjing did - he posted and deleted it. I was recreating his post, as I had some of it saved. What's in bold is what LKFMDC said something to the effect of, and what's not bolded is gj's reply.

I remember that site vash linked - I actually have it bookmarked.

[rogue]

My bad 7*. The impression that I have is that the Okinawans had a culture of fighters not warriors. It was known as the Land of Constant Courtesy or something like that. Doesn't really scream of samauri to me.

[Vash]

Originally posted by rogue

7*, Vash posted a link to an official Okinawan cultural site, I think that's where I've heard referred to as esentially a folk art. As far as something that farmers and peasants did that's also true, but the better trained seemed to be upper-class young guys with time and money to train. I think Karate was something that was common place in the way that wrestling used to be common in America. It would be odd if they let Itosu teach a battlefield art to school children even in a watered down state.

http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/

There was an okinawan style of sumo which was often demonstrated by the peasant class. For a good description of it, check out this interview w/Hohan Soken. (http://)
He really seemed to enjoy the rasslin' matches.

As for tote/karate being a peasant thing, I've not seen a lot of historical evidence (because there is sooo much accurate Karate history) to suggest it was filtered out to the non-royal (and associated families), at least previous to the turn of the 20th century. Of course, I've none of my materials at hand, so please correct me if I am wrong. I am most certainly not as knowledgeable on the subject as several of the OMA peeps on the board.

OMA 0wN$ @ll! Or something to that effect. :eek:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vash

OMA 0wN$ @ll! Or something to that effect. :eek:

0|V|4 0\^/N5 J00!!


that's how it's done.

frickin H4X0R speak n3wb5...

[Vash]

Originally posted by SevenStar


0|V|4 0\^/N5 J00!!


that's how it's done.

frickin H4X0R speak n3wb5...

I Just Got Served.

[lkfmdc]

wow, ground jing was so sure of what he was saying he erased his ENTIRE POST TO ME :rolleyes:

Funny, you seem to be talking out of both sides of your rear end, you want to talk about Tode, ie Karate, in Okinawa then want to cite a medieval castle in JAPAN as evidence for it...

Until modern history, Okinawa was a distinct culture SEPARATE from Japan's, in fact, more influenced by China... Tode/Karate and classical Japanese ryu used by samurai never met nor mingled.

****, it's well know that Tode/Karate didn't even arrive in Japan until Funakoshi and the gang....

Hey, let's storm the castle with shuto and mae geri :rolleyes:

do idiots dress up at castles to entertain the tourists? Of course they do. We have idiots dressed up like confederate rebels at civil war sites around the US... are you gonna tell me the confederacy, Jefferson Davis and the gang are alive and active?

You were doing Shooto in Texas in 1986.... yeah, sure, ok, whatever you say....

[Vash]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Tode/Karate and classical Japanese ryu used by samurai never met nor mingled.

From what I've been able to dig up, there was some cross-pollination of MA from Japan to the Ryukyus, in the form of Jingen Ryu Kenjutsu. I think it was Matsumura Sokon who got his menkyo in Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu from Ijuin Yashichiro. He used the principles of Jigen Ryu, the kung fu he learned under Iwah Sifu, and the local te of Shuri.

I think. Don't quote me on that.

[rogue]

are you gonna tell me the confederacy, Jefferson Davis and the gang are alive and active?
As God is my witness and as someone who lives hea sah, the confederacy is alive and well! :D

I'm sure there was some cross polination between Japan and Okinawa but the main influences are Chinese.

[Vash]

Originally posted by rogue
As God is my witness and as someone who lives hea sah, the confederacy is alive and well! :D

An' it amounts TO a buncha overweight, underedumacated, no-personal-hygiene-havin' Confedrate Flag Waifers! (notice I changed Wavers to Waifers as they sound similar, and waifers can be construed as Crackers. I'm hilarious.)

Seriously though, rednecks suxors.



I'm sure there was some cross polination between Japan and Okinawa but the main influences are Chinese.

I'll take a darn sandwich with a side of skippy for that one.

Oh, by the by, here's (http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000034.html) a rather interesting thread referencing Matusumura's (by way of Hohan Soken) Hakutsuru. Note the last post by a 38-year practioner of White Crane.

Good stuff.

[lkfmdc]

in my aggravation at some of the ridiculous posts I saw here, I may have been over the top in saying there was absolutely no interaction between Okinawan and Japanese martial arts systems,

HOWEVER the basic issue of whether the bare handed Tode/Karate that we see in the likes of Funakoshi and the Japanese schools of Karate has ANYTHING to do with battlefield combat (ie with WEAONS) remains valid....

In fact, I can easily go further, established Okinawa schools such as Shorin Ryu, Isshin Ryu, Goju Ryu and Shorei are all basicly "peasant self defense" or primiative "dueling" methods, as far removed from combat with weapons and ARMOUR as you can get....

[Liokault]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
wow, ground jing was so sure of what he was saying he erased his ENTIRE POST TO ME :rolleyes:



Until modern history, Okinawa was a distinct culture SEPARATE from Japan's, in fact, more influenced by China... Tode/Karate and classical Japanese ryu used by samurai never met nor mingled.





Not sure about samurai , but Okinawans definatly had sumo, so I am sure that quite a lot of cross polination was going on.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by lkfmdc

In fact, I can easily go further, established Okinawa schools such as Shorin Ryu, Isshin Ryu, Goju Ryu and Shorei are all basicly "peasant self defense" or primiative "dueling" methods, as far removed from combat with weapons and ARMOUR as you can get....

bingo. that's why they used farm tools as weapons - nunchaku were use to shuck rice, tonfa were mill handles, the bo was used to carry baskets, herd livestock, etc., the kama was used to cut stalks, the sai was a planting tool...

[Vash]

Originally posted by SevenStar
bingo. that's why they used farm tools as weapons - nunchaku were use to shuck rice, tonfa were mill handles, the bo was used to carry baskets, herd livestock, etc., the kama was used to cut stalks, the sai was a planting tool...

The sai could've been used as a planting tool. However, it's original use was as a weapon. Most notably used by the king's guards. There was also a weapon whose name escapes me now that was a 6' staff with a sai mounted on the end.

Honestly though, kobujutsu isn't my strong point, historically-wise. Actually, history ain't my strong point, history wise. But I've read more documentation citing the upper classes as the proginators of te and later tote. There aren't a whole lot of farmers who figure prominently into the karate histories (such as they are).

And don't mention Tatsuo Shimabuku, founder of Isshinryu, who was raised on a farm. Citing the Ultimate Okinawan Martial Arts Thread, Page Two, rogue's quotation of Rob Redmond (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28033&perpage=15&highlight=Ultimate%20Okinawan%20Martial%20Arts%20T hread&pagenumber=2).

[SevenStar]

you're referring to a nuntibo...but I don't think the original intent of the sai was a palace weapon...

are you thinking about the jutte?

[Vash]

Originally posted by SevenStar
you're referring to a nuntibo...but I don't think the original intent of the sai was a palace weapon...

are you thinking about the jutte?

Honestly, I don't know. The jutte kinda looks like half a sai.
Again, kobujutsu and kobudo aren't my forte'. I only know a Bo set (Tokumine no Kun) and a Chizi kun Bo set (Chizi kun Bo). And, as I rarely get to use anything that remotely resembles the sai or tuifa (tonfa) outside of class, I never put to much stock in learning them.

Of course, I think'd be neat to get a hold of Isshinryu's two sai sets. I can think of a few transferable skills from them (like those extendable baton things).

Anyway, that's the full extent of my rather inextensive kobujutsu knowledge. It's my stance, however, that the armed and unarmed fighting methods on Okinawa were from the upper class of the Ryukyu familys, and were propogated by such, until the turn of the 1900's (ish).

PS: yay! OMA discussion roxors . . . I mean, OMA discussion 0|V|4 0\^/N5 J00!!

[SevenStar]

this article (http://www.karate.org.yu/articles/matayoshi_kobudo.htm)

has a pic of the nuntibo that we were referring to. It was indeed the wealthy families that travelled to china, but the material was combined with the less refined knowledge that the okinawan peasants had, becoming the OMA that we know today - I think...kobudo was definitely peasant oriented, utilizing the weapons we've been discussing. the hand techniques were what was brought from china.

[rogue]

In fact, I can easily go further, established Okinawa schools such as Shorin Ryu, Isshin Ryu, Goju Ryu and Shorei are all basicly "peasant self defense" or primiative "dueling" methods, as far removed from combat with weapons and ARMOUR as you can get.... I wouldn't include Isshinryu in that line up as it's the newbie on the block.

One reason, and in my opinion the main reason for peasant weapons is that King Shoshin outlawed private ownership and stockpiling of weapons. In regards to peasant self defense maybe, maybe not. Let's look at some famous karateka...

Kyan Chotoku was the third son of Chofu Kyan, the Chamberlain of King Sho Tai - the last king of Ryukyu Islands (Okinawa). Peasant?

Sokon Matsumura was recruited into the service of the Sho family (Royal family of Okinawa) and eventually became the chief martial arts instructor and bodyguard for the Okinawan King.
Peasant?

Anko Itosu, secretary to the king of the Ryukyu Islands.
Peasant?

Choki Motobu, upper class kid from Shuri.
Peasant?

Chojun Miyagi, family involved with the importing of pharmaceuticals, the family owned two trading ships, which were used to supply the government and private merchants.
Peasant?

[Vash]

Thanks for the link.

You make some good points which I can't refute. Like I said, history ain't my strong point.

I should be more knowledgeable on kobudo/kobujutsu, though. My sensei is a Shodan in Matayoshi (I think) kobudo. He doesn't include it as part of the school's syllabus, though.

[rogue]

It was indeed the wealthy families that travelled to china, but the material was combined with the less refined knowledge that the okinawan peasants had, becoming the OMA that we know today - I think...kobudo was definitely peasant oriented, utilizing the weapons we've been discussing. the hand techniques were what was brought from china. What less refined knowledge of the peasants? :confused: I think it trickled down more from the Chinese arts than we think.

[SevenStar]

From my understanding, kobudo began after several invasions by the japanese. The okinawans made weapons of what they could find - turtle shells for shields, etc. as time progressed, they began using their farm tools and created a fighting system.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by rogue
I wouldn't include Isshinryu in that line up as it's the newbie on the block.

One reason, and in my opinion the main reason for peasant weapons is that King Shoshin outlawed private ownership and stockpiling of weapons. In regards to peasant self defense maybe, maybe not. Let's look at some famous karateka...

Kyan Chotoku was the third son of Chofu Kyan, the Chamberlain of King Sho Tai - the last king of Ryukyu Islands (Okinawa). Peasant?

Sokon Matsumura was recruited into the service of the Sho family (Royal family of Okinawa) and eventually became the chief martial arts instructor and bodyguard for the Okinawan King.
Peasant?

Anko Itosu, secretary to the king of the Ryukyu Islands.
Peasant?

Choki Motobu, upper class kid from Shuri.
Peasant?

Chojun Miyagi, family involved with the importing of pharmaceuticals, the family owned two trading ships, which were used to supply the government and private merchants.
Peasant?

As was pointed out earlier, kobudo began with the peasants. Also, as was pointed out, many rich folk went to china and trained while they were there. They brought the arts back. These arts were integrated with the kobudo - overall, peasant fighting. In any event, it was definitely not battlefield fighting...

[Vash]

Originally posted by SevenStar
In any event, it was definitely not battlefield fighting...

Spot on.

[rogue]

Definatly not a battlefield art which is obvious from it's applications and that Okinawa was never a military power in the area. They were conquered by the Satsuma a one clan in 1609, so I'm guessing they weren't very warlike. I think the entire peasant fighting thing is a bit of Japanese revisionism.

[CD Lee]

Redangel5 said (I think...):


CD Lee, some of thie things you are saying makes sense and I've heard them before. I"m not opposed to it but let's take building strength as an example - why stand in a few positions for long periods of time when you can weight train and run for a faster and better response? The stillness thing I can agree with, the relaxation part.


When you say 'building strenth', you have to consider, as we all should, what kind of strength we are building. I did a lot of resistance training in past times, ran track, done 10K's and play tennis competitively. There is a principle in training that is very real called, specificity. Depending on what you are trying to accomplish, different methods of strength building attain different results.

A marthoner has exceptionally strong legs, I mean, strong. 26 miles at 5 minutes per mile. Strong. However, it is specific to running, and so his strength training is geared to building strenth in a different way. A marthoner cannot squat 400 lbs. most likely.

Why does a boxer not weight train all day, since that is a great way to get strong in a short amount of time? The end effect is not desireable to fighting of course.

So.....standing in postures for strength. First, I am not a huge beliver in standing for a bunch of 'strength'. I believe you need to stand for that kind of strength to be able to do it longer to achieve other goals in relaxation that at first, are not possible. I don't think you need to stand in one deep posture an hour just to say your legs are stronger. Hell no, give me a barbell, and I'm done in 5 minutes thank you. :D

But standing for the internal arts, does achieve things that are useful in those type of arts. For the external styles, hey, you got me there, I don't know.

But as far as standing postures not doing you any benefit, it just really depends on what you were trying to accomplish, and how long you stuck with it to see beyond the honeymoon effect.

[Fu-Pow]

Standing postures = Nei Gong= Internal Work.

In western terms it means....

Deep Muscle Tonic Lengthening against Gravity ( or an applied external force.)

It's very difficult to learn how to move this way let alone apply your body to fighting this way.

However, the benefits outweigh the difficulties.

It essentially allows one to harness the efficiency, sensitivity and elastic potential within the bodies structure.

You don't have to be in good shape in the Western classical sense of the word either to apply it (ie big muscles, strong cardio).

Qi Gong is something more mystical and less practical for fighting. Maybe for health or something.

In fact, in my Taiji class and my Nei Gong class we have talked about breathing maybe once or twice in the six years I've been going there.

My point here is not to discount the Internal Arts as some kind of mystical mumbo jumbo. They talked about concepts in the terms that were available to them at the time. But it doesn't mean the concept was "wrong" just because they had the mechanism wrong.

For christsake classical Chinese medicine doesn't even have the concept of a nervous system and yet somehow they found a way to make it work.

[MightyB]

This topic is something that I argue about with my Tai Chi friend daily.

He's an internalist and can't understand why I train the way that I do.

I think standing around hoping that the gods will grant you awesome powers of chi because of your devotion to archaic post-life reflections from apologists is stupid. Mostly, it's his thought that standing and reflecting only will give him results and that I'm somehow hurting myself by adding modern performance methods to my workout that really Ticks me off.

-----------

I like to follow the Olympic athlete 3 part model. All olympic athletes have 3 shared characteristics: 1) Focus, 2) physical fitness, 3) Technique.

1) You have to be focused. This includes both short term and long term concrete goals. Part of focus is determination, and an almost fanatical devotion to whatever goal that you're trying to achieve.

2) physical fitness. Here's a tidbit about amatuer san shou. If you survive the first round, and you're in better shape than the guy you're fighting, you'll probably win. I've seen alot of guys flat out "die on their feet" because they weren't in shape. If you're still strong late in the round and you're opponent isn't, guess what? You can tag their face at will because they don't have anything left to defend themselves with.

3) technique. Clean technique wins fights. I was a punching dummy for an awesome Sifu. He told me what technique he was going to use, and he even slowed down to let me block because he wanted me to block to set up an even cooler technique. Guess what? His technique was so tight and precise, I couldn't block it. So, yes, technique can win fights.

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Just thought that I'd add my 2 cents.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by CD Lee
Redangel5 said (I think...):



So.....standing in postures for strength. . .

No. Standing powers for power.

And beyond that, for developing stong intent and to a certani degree even good sensitivity. But not really for "strength".

[SevenStar]

mighty b, where da he11 you been?

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by MightyB
I think standing around hoping that the gods will grant you awesome powers of chi because of your devotion to archaic post-life reflections from apologists is stupid.

Most internal style practitioners think this too. This isn't why they're interested in standing practice.

[MightyB]

I had to take a new job. I'm actually helping to build a TV station www.jtv.tv. I've been super busy, so I don't post too much anymore. I've actually just recently got back heavily into kung fu practice after having basically taken a year off. I've been studying Judo for the past couple of months, and I'm about 4 months away from my first brown. Judo is cool, but it just isn't the same as kung fu.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


I think standing around hoping that the gods will grant you awesome powers of chi because of your devotion to archaic post-life reflections from apologists is stupid.

There is muscle work, there is proper alignment, and.. there is the intent and energy which animates these processes, examine the intent and the energy which moves the muscles for insights into the effect we refer to as "Qi".. it's not mystical, it's a natural process we don't quite have the resources to quantify, yet.. it's unified body/mind/spirit perspective..


In fact, in my Taiji class and my Nei Gong class we have talked about breathing maybe once or twice in the six years I've been going there.

If you examine the order of importance of physical processes, the act of breathing is foremost in the externally derived processes (bringing outside air into the body and exchanging it with used inside air).. to neglect this supremely important process is a fundamental error. Proper breathing is at least as important as technique or any other of the things we focus on.. most of us can run, but.. running efficiently and effectively requires much training.. same with breathing, we can breathe but can we do it properly?

Be well...

[MightyB]

I think standing around hoping that the gods will grant you awesome powers of chi because of your devotion to archaic post-life reflections from apologists is stupid.

Master X decides to write a book about martial arts... He reflects deeply on what martial arts mean...

In his past, when he was young, X practiced diligently. He practiced harder that all of his contemporaries. He worked out hard and searched out methods, any methods, that would make him better. He issued challenges, which he often won, and when he lost, he sought to be a disciple of the person who defeated him. He studied and trained in this way for years. Over time, X found that he didn't have to train as hard in the martial / physical aspects of his art, he was free to do what he liked which was meditation and chi gung exercises.

Master X decided to write a book about martial arts... he wrote about what he liked at the time... and he forgot to mention the hard work that it took to get there.

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George Foreman is a good boxer. Try using Foreman's current training model to begin boxing. It works for Foreman, it doesn't work for you... Why? You didn't put in the work that Foreman did as a young boxer.

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Now do you know what I mean by "post-life reflections from apologists?"

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MightyB
I had to take a new job. I'm actually helping to build a TV station www.jtv.tv. I've been super busy, so I don't post too much anymore. I've actually just recently got back heavily into kung fu practice after having basically taken a year off. I've been studying Judo for the past couple of months, and I'm about 4 months away from my first brown. Judo is cool, but it just isn't the same as kung fu.

congrats on the new job. man, judo is the shiznit, IMO. Are you going to do any competing?

[MightyB]

My coach wants me to.

Michigan State University has several large tournaments throughout the year and I'm only about 30 minutes from there. One of my coaches was a former national champion and he is a big wig with the Spirit of the Eagle training camps, so whenever he comes in, I try to pick his brain on competition stuff.

I'm still trying to find my moves. I like Seoi-nage, Tai-otoshi, Kouchi-gari, and Kata-guruma.