When an art becomes a Just do it fighting [Archive]

Jim Roselando

05-25-2004, 02:03 PM

Hello,

I see two sides of the coin now a days.

1) Old knowledge is useless and fighting is the best way to great skill.

2) Old knoweldge is useful and teaches the body/mind to function and then you combine that with fighting to achieve great skill.

Now, we have loads of people who can fight well enough but if you watch them you dont see much in the way of WC mechanics or principle driving them.

Then you also have the text book guys who cannot do much in reality.

On a few occassions you get the true masters like Sum Nung/Etc. who is trained in the technical ways and has the fighting experience to back up that knowledge.

The difference I see is that the old guys tend to not need to add in a pinch of this or a touch of that (tricks) to make there art function where as the modern guys like to mix and match whatever they want (everything is everything).

Atleast YM's good fighters like Wong Shun Leung were honest about what they used in there Gong Sao's! A quote from Wong sifu when asked about what he used in his fights;

I mainly used Western Boxing and a Chain Punch!

So, whats all this babble mean? I think what Hendrik is saying about Advance art is if you train WC or other art:

""There has to have methodology in mind/body/breathing/power generatioin/technics of applications / tactic/stratergy to be an art.""

Combine that knowledge with fighting experience and train often and hard enough to burn this into your natural ways (like anything else we do naturally) and that is when you have something powerful to Just Do It with!

Thoughts?

Regards,

PaulH

05-25-2004, 02:17 PM

Jim,

To my best knowledge while Wong may say that he used mainly simple tools like boxing attacks or chain punches, he believed and taught his students not to depend on chain punches as they are basic and easy to be countered.

Wong's skills of timing, of "properness", and directness of his attacks and defenses are very high and truly marvelous and brilliant gems when he demonstrated them.

Regards,
PH

reneritchie

05-25-2004, 02:18 PM

Calligraphy is making art out of practical written communication. You can just script or print a quick note, you can even short-hand a document for efficiency, but just to get the job done, you don't need calligraphy or illumination. There are degrees to calligraphic styles and illumination extents, from barely noticeable to life's works, but in the end they're art.

Martial arts are making art out practical physical combat. You can just hit someone with your fist or run or kick them in the ding-ding, you can even run over them with your car for efficiency, but just to get the job done, you don't need martial arts or cultural artifacts. There are degrees to martial arts and cultural artifacts as well, from barely more than brawling to incredibly elaborate and stylized movements, in in the end, they're art.

Some people will have dyslexia or other trouble with even simple writing, others will have lack of coordination or no killer instinct or whatever make sit difficult to just fight, and the systematic and artistic disciplines may be helpful to them. But for most, if you just want to write, pick up a pen and if you just want to fight, throw a punch.

The reason calligraphy and MA exist is because people, by their nature, want more than just the practical.

But if you want more than just the practical, don't sweat the practical so much.

Ernie

05-25-2004, 02:24 PM

jim
[[Now, we have loads of people who can fight well enough but if you watch them you dont see much in the way of WC mechanics or principle driving them.

Then you also have the text book guys who cannot do much in reality]]

a lot of the so called mechanics of the training system don't fly in the real world , were fighters are bigger stronger faster , and more versed in combat

another take is when one becomes natural you won't see the training system mechanics , it just flows
i see this alot with gary , he can deliver short power from any position or stance hell even sitting down , on one foot what ever
but he is a fighter so he has experienced both

i think when it looks like wing chun [ training system ] you are not yet free , or the person your fighting has very little skill so you can look like you want

jim
[[[The difference I see is that the old guys tend to not need to add in a pinch of this or a touch of that (tricks) to make there art function where as the modern guys like to mix and match whatever they want (everything is everything). ]]]

i personally don't believe in any of the old masters exploits , since they never really had to fight people outside of there bubble , that's why you don't see any body now adays looking like there old master stories , now the skilled people have to face equally skilled people and the game has changed .

if it can't be proven now [ out side of a story or some lame demo ] then it probably is more fiction then fact

also i have yet to meet any very skilled person that doesn't have a few tricks up his sleeve
:D

jim
[[[Atleast YM's good fighters like Wong Shun Leung were honest about what they used in there Gong Sao's! A quote from Wong sifu when asked about what he used in his fights;

I mainly used Western Boxing and a Chain Punch!]]]

i would be interested to see were you got this from since everything i ever encountered about wong was anti chain punch

i actually agree with the boxing aspect it improves any fighter , nice dose of reality

jim""There has to have methodology in mind/body/breathing/power generatioin/technics of applications / tactic/stratergy to be an art.""]]]

i don't believe in fighting with a paint brush so art has nothing to do with it , but training methods and experience and conditioning yourself towards the goal , then pressure testing and refineing
might just bring you all the answers you need on a personal level

but then again there is always scrolls and kung fu movies and hand me down fables
[[

;)

Jim Roselando

05-25-2004, 03:05 PM

Hey Paul,

To my best knowledge while Wong may say that he used mainly simple tools like boxing attacks or chain punches, he believed and taught his students not to depend on chain punches as they are basic and easy to be countered.

I am sure you are correct about this! This was not to say this was his total game but just the few things he won most fights with occording to him.

Wong's skills of timing, of "properness", and directness of his attacks and defenses are very high and truly marvelous and brilliant gems when he demonstrated them.

I am sure you are correct about this to! What good is anything without the attributes to drive them! He obviously had them otherwise none of the above (even tho they are simple tools) will work!

Gotta run,

PaulH

05-25-2004, 03:05 PM

Rene,

While I know little of your art, but you got good style! =)

anerlich

05-25-2004, 04:00 PM

You obviously know somethings that we don't.

I remain sceptical on that count, I'm afraid.

an advance art is an art which address major zone's and issues.

Agreed. Standup, clinch, ground, conditioning ... efficiency and effectiveness, and practical training methods, as opposed to esoterica, overintellectualism and theory.

anerlich

05-25-2004, 04:07 PM

and hopefully you got a new technics which others never know before so you can cheat and set him up to beat him.

I don't agree with "secret techniques" as a methodology either, but fighting is all about deception. "Cheating" is the best way to go.

Ultimatewingchun

05-25-2004, 04:27 PM

People who fear change more than they desire growth reject evolution.

Stop living, breathing, and having your being in the past.

It's 2004.

PaulH

05-25-2004, 05:54 PM

YES! WE HAVE NO BANANAS
by Frank Silver and Irving Cohn
1923

There's a fruit store on our street
It's run by a Greek.
And he keeps good things to eat
But you should hear him speak!
When you ask him anything, he never answers "no".
He just "yes"es you to death, and as he takes your dough
He tells you
"Yes, we have no bananas
We have-a no bananas today.
We've string beans, and onions
Cabashes, and scallions,
And all sorts of fruit and say
We have an old fashioned tomato
A Long Island potato
But yes, we have no bananas.
We have no bananas today."

Business got so good for him that he wrote home today,
"Send me Pete and Nick and Jim; I need help right away."
When he got them in the store, there was fun, you bet.
Someone asked for "sparrow grass" and then the whole quartet
All answered
"Yes, we have no bananas
We have-a no bananas today.
Just try those coconuts
Those wall-nuts and doughnuts
There ain't many nuts like they.
We'll sell you two kinds of red herring,
Dark brown, and ball-bearing.
But yes, we have no bananas
We have no bananas today."

The new English "clark":
Yes, we are very sorry to inform you
That we are entirely out of the fruit in question
The afore-mentioned vegetable
Bearing the cognomen "Banana".
We might induce you to accept a substitute less desirable,
But that is not the policy at this internationally famous
green grocery.
I should say not. No no no no no no no.
But may we suggest that you sample our five o'clock tea
Which we feel certain will tempt your pallet?
However we regret that after a diligent search
Of the premises
By our entire staff
We can positively affirm without fear of contradiction
That our raspberries are delicious; really delicious
Very delicious
But we have no bananas today.

Yes, we gotta no banana
No banana
We gotta no banana today.
I sella you no banana.
Hey, Mary Anna, you gotta no banana?
Why this man, he no believe-a what I say.
Now whatta you want mister?
You wanna buy twelve for a quarter?
Yes, a quarter.
Well, just one look, I'm gonna call for my daughter.
Hey, Mary Anna
You gotta piana
Yes, banana, no
No, yes, no bananas today
We gotta no bananas.
Yes, we gotta no bananas today.

Phenix

05-25-2004, 07:31 PM

Pual,
Talk is cheap and everyone will love to think thier reality is the realities. I like Kyokushin way, the strechting to the ultimate disregard of where one stand and how one thinks his/her reality is the realities. Realities is to be streched. That is ZEn.

WCK with an awkward middle low to low middle zone power generation will not bring one anywhere when attack in this zone, but waiting to be slaugter. Not to mention if the opponent attack in with full body momentum. One can do the same fighting everyday and still that zone is weak like hell. That simple.

It has nothing to do with 1850 or 2004 if it is a hand 2 hand fight. unless if it is a missile war :D

The question is does all needed zone and component cover?

One certainly can argue all about everything and everyone's guess is as good as others.

But, with a SLT which stand there dead and brought in BAD habit for the Middle Low and low middle zone. dont tell me there is CK or BJ. and they train one to move.... no, the blind zone is bad there. :D how is one expect to face the attacker who comes in to that zone? One can do continous fighting or combat or whatever to claim to got the experience. But, there is a large hole there. That is the facts. hahaha

Why dont people who is Great in Figthing! adress what to do with this stupid SLT blind zone habit? :D

I dont believe those how claim to have lots of experience in fighting but never address the issue of these Dead or Blind Zone.

But how can one experience in fighting when a component in the art the Dead or Blind Zone was not even address?

Learning Wrestling or Grappling or BJJ is not a bad thing. But Wrestling and BJJ is an art too. The different is they address the operation in this zone. So, come on, put the fighting or just do it down. Adress the important issue. How to handle the attack to this Zone? hehehehee it is about methodology and what one want to achive isnt it?

Phenix

05-25-2004, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

Here is my evaluation of your past thoughtful posts. "First comes thought... Then organization of that thought into ideas and plans. Then transformation of those plans into reality. The beginning as you'll observe, is in your imagination. —Napoleon Hill"

I see so far the promising beginning but not your middle and end. You obviously know somethings that we don't. Why don't you figure out a way of making your ideas more tangible?

Regards,
PH

Sure, WCK must adress the blind power generation Zone between navel to the knee. IT doesnt matter it is LJ or WHo they are. If this blind Zone not address. Thier WCK ART is not complete. :D

It is a tangible enought issue right? :D

Certainly, one can argue with me about mind/breathing/body centering......

The fact is how to dealing with attack to the blind zone if it is not address. nothing can be done. If the mind/breathing/body is not train. next time one sees a new "animal" comes in one turn into tunnel vision, and that is the end of the fight. :D

and if the SLT doesnt train one to have good habit why bother still doing it?

Speaking about Fantasy. how many still doing SLT while posting here about there is no Qi power no.... fighting is fighting:D so that is hypocrate. right?
If you dont fantasy, dont do SLT :D

But may be it is not a fantasy but something real important was left out? hehehehe

Ernie

05-25-2004, 07:49 PM

hendrik
your funny man haven't you ever heard of high low high
split beats , progressive indirect attack

that blind zone has been addressed for hundreds of years
leave china travel to the philipines and you will see how easy it is train

it'a all there from the striaght spine to the bent spine [ broken hip ]
to kneeling to the ground

attacks and defenses from any one or in combination

nothing new to anyone who has worked sticks or knives

nothing new to a boxer that drops elevation with a low jab or a savate man with a lead forte kick

maybe just a problem for a slt robot that leaves big holes

still comes down to pressure testing it and letting people expose your holes and develop counter skills
but if all you ever do is chi sau or train with wing chun people that use the same targeting system then

i could see were the holes would be obvious:o

Phenix

05-25-2004, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by Ernie

that blind zone has been addressed for hundreds of years
leave china travel to the philipines and you will see how easy it is train

still comes down to pressure testing it and letting people expose your holes and develop counter skills

.........i could see were the holes would be obvious:o

sure,
so how do you generate power agilely when attack come to this zone? similar to clip from the other topic in this forum?

See, that guy went down to ground right? how do you use WCK to avoid it?

Please present us your methodology and method from WCK's set. Where are they from otherwise it is not WCK ;D. and hey that become an art of handling in this zone :D not just a do it fighting.
Hehehehe

To see the hole is obvious. and How is your WCK deal with it? or you go learn some wrestling or BJJ to learn how to deal with it.

And Wrestling and BJJ are ART too right? HehHehehehe

one can do all the pressure testing one wants but without a methodology. One cant even move a big rock more then one's muscle strength without a level. Just a simple level. that is art!

heheheh :D

Ernie

05-25-2004, 08:07 PM

sure,
so how do you generate power agilely when attack come to this zone? similar to clip from the other topic in this forum?

See, that guy went down to ground right? how do you use WCK to avoid it?

dude like you ever give an example

simple i don't give a rats a ss about a wing chun answer
first i control distance because i have good foot work

second drop elevation and pop his a ss zone out as you torque your body and nail him with a flurry of knee's or elbow's

pull him in a clinch smoother his power and bite his face while you fire a knee in his balls

no big deal

done it before

dude you need to read about dumog,and kina muy thai

anerlich

05-25-2004, 09:23 PM

And Wrestling and BJJ are ART too right?

You got it, Ace.

TjD

05-25-2004, 11:46 PM

my sifu likes to compare wing chun to jazz.

many other arts are much like other types of music. you play and play and play and repeat practicing until you can play the song perfectly. then you just repeat it for audiences.

with wing chun, you learn the skills, you learn the philosophies - then you fly by your seat of the pants. play in the moment, do whats right in the moment. just do!

both are art, just different :)

captain

05-26-2004, 06:07 AM

let me get this staright,WSL taught wck,but used western boxing in real fight?that concerns me.

Russ

Ultimatewingchun

05-26-2004, 06:20 AM

This is a quote from Hendrik:

"See, that guy went down to ground right? how do you use WCK to avoid it?
Please present us your methodology and method from WCK's set. Where are they from otherwise it is not WCK ;D. and hey that become an art of handling in this zone not just a do it fighting.
Hehehehe
To see the hole is obvious. and How is your WCK deal with it? or you go learn some wrestling or BJJ to learn how to deal with it.

And Wrestling and BJJ are ART too right?".

The key phrase in that quote is:

"HOW DO YOU USE WCK TO AVOID IT ?"

There's the problem, right there, Hendrik. Wing Chun has limited answers to attacks to the middle and especially the lower gates that are meant to take you down...sometimes they work - but at other times (ie.-against a skilled takedown artist who can disguise what's coming with a high strike first)...

against this guy...LOL.

But you already answered the question, as Andrew pointed out:

"And Wrestling and BJJ are ART too right?"

YES THEY ARE.

Smile... Though you're heart is achin'.
Smile...Even though it's breakin'
When there are clouds in the sky...You'll get by.

So you want to learn how to defend against takedowns? Just learn some wrestling.

And Smile!

Jim Roselando

05-26-2004, 06:43 AM

Hello Ernie,

a lot of the so called mechanics of the training system don't fly in the real world , were fighters are bigger stronger faster , and more versed in combat

Well, I agree and disagree. Certainly nothing will look like the classroom but indeed the core stuff/engine must drive you when fighting otherwise you will not be using all that stuff we spend so much time trying to get skilled at. Also, if all this stuff doesn't hold up a bit then say good bye to any of your power, balance, etc..

another take is when one becomes natural you won't see the training system mechanics , it just flows
i see this alot with gary , he can deliver short power from any position or stance hell even sitting down , on one foot what ever
but he is a fighter so he has experienced both

Yes. It will be part of them and it gets more refined as we get better. The more noticeable the less skill one has IMO.

i think when it looks like wing chun [ training system ] you are not yet free , or the person your fighting has very little skill so you can look like you want

I can agree with this. The best people always tend to just do it but their properties seem to always be running even tho we cant notice it as much!

i personally don't believe in any of the old masters exploits , since they never really had to fight people outside of there bubble , that's why you don't see any body now adays looking like there old master stories , now the skilled people have to face equally skilled people and the game has changed .

Dont know if I agree with this. I am not talking about the super-natural type of stories. Guys like Sum Nung, Leung Jan, Wang Xiang Zhai, etc. are all old masters that fought numerous varieties and back then these guys fought and trained seriously. I dont think they gained their reputation by fighting bums. Many of Wang's pupils are still around and many witnessed his fights. Sum Nung only passed away recently and his stories were well known. Etc..

if it can't be proven now [ out side of a story or some lame demo ] then it probably is more fiction then fact

Fung Sang stated that; Only few will achieve great skill. I think this applies to a lot of stuff even outside WC. These few tend to be ultra similar and could do it.

i would be interested to see were you got this from since everything i ever encountered about wong was anti chain punch

While teaching seminar in UK one of my best friends asked Wong sifu that question and that was his answer. Basically, he needed very little to finish off his opponents. Which shows he had the goods and was honest. The best fighters always only need a little bit as they do it so well! I do think this is being mis-understood tho. Everyone seems to think I am saying Wong only relied on those two aspects to win but I think this is what he used to finish his opponents off as thats all he needed most of the time. Thats what my friend got out of that answer.

i actually agree with the boxing aspect it improves any fighter , nice dose of reality

True.

i don't believe in fighting with a paint brush so art has nothing to do with it , but training methods and experience and conditioning yourself towards the goal , then pressure testing and refineing
might just bring you all the answers you need on a personal level

So we agree then. Methods, experience, conditioning your art to build it into you and then pressure testing is the best way.

but then again there is always scrolls and kung fu movies and hand me down fables

Like anthing! There is reality and fable in most stories.

In the end I think we need to use the tools of today to help us grow (just because they used a stick in the old days doesn't mean a mirror is not useful even tho it takes away some of the essence), the knowledge of the past/today (study the info of the old and todays masters) and lots of hard work/fighting (thats up to us)!

Regards,

Ernie

05-26-2004, 07:50 AM

jim
[[Well, I agree and disagree. Certainly nothing will look like the classroom but indeed the core stuff/engine must drive you when fighting otherwise you will not be using all that stuff we spend so much time trying to get skilled at. Also, if all this stuff doesn't hold up a bit then say good bye to any of your power, balance, etc.. ]]]

this more then one engine the human body can use to generate power , speed , balance and stability/ mobility

the key is to not be limited or fixed but to switch gears according to what the situation dictates,

there are engines for striaght spine bent,sitting kneeling , being on the ground . each is more effecient then the other in the right place at the right time

to me the real ''core '' is the ability to have balance speed power,mobility/stability ,sensitivity during the use of any of these engines/ positions/body postures

if you can't adapt then once the posture is broken , and it will be broken , you will fumble around trying to recreate it , instead of just flowing on from that point

problem is people like security blankets and wnat to freeze frame what a fight should be instead of all that it will be

the stuff we train ingrains the seeds of this idea , we gain exposure on a small controlled playing field with limited possibilties , so we can break things down and isolate and combine skills

but eventually you need to leave the kiddy pool and adapt to the waves of the ocean
:D

back to old masters , to be honest i have seen footage of a few old masters fighting around the 40's they were not wing chun but it was a big deal , tons of people and when these guys fought they sucked bad , no timeing footworkarms swinging wild sloppy , no distance control , just to very well dressed gentle man fighting like high school girls

this plus some off the rooftop footage and some private stuff that has been handed to me ,
tells me any 16 year old kid with 6 months of boxing would have smoked these guys

i can only use that as a representation of what they percievved to be a master and skill level back in the day
and honestly it was weak

until i see something different i will put no faith in the stories

all i can concern myself with is what we got today and deal with reality :D

but i know every body does there own thing for there own reasons

black and blue

05-26-2004, 08:22 AM

Captain says:

"let me get this staright,WSL taught wck,but used western boxing in real fight?that concerns me."

This is interesting, as Russ points out.

Would we say WCK is similar in dynamics to Western boxing? Or as some would say, does it have the same engine?

If the answer is no, then why use Western boxing in a real fight when you can rely on your WC?

Any thoughts?

Ernie

05-26-2004, 08:35 AM

band b

If the answer is no, then why use Western boxing in a real fight when you can rely on your WC?

great question

first i have tons of wong video and he used wing chun

but what he had perhaps from boxing is mobility,live footwork ,distance control ,timing , speed and power
and he was conditioned to take punishment if it came to that

all these attributes are very benificial in a street fight

the tools you hit with , striaght punch , jab cross hook

don't really matter as long as you have a functional delievery system and can adapt

when people think boxing the only see the surface 2 guys with gloves in a ring pounding each other

but when you train like a boxer you will see all the skills it takes to get there , those skills [ attributes ] can be universally applied in any confrontation

the reality is a boxer is attempting to hit another boxer that is just as skilled and tough as he is , that is very difficult to do

true in a street fight you might just be able to shell shock a bum
but if you have to face another skilled athletic aware individual

that is bent on doing you harm , your in for a long day at the office

edited in ---- think of a pyrimid
at the base you need footwork , this gives you control of distance this gives you control of timing and at the very tip the smallest part is speed and power

black and blue

05-26-2004, 08:43 AM

Thanks for the reply, Ernie.

When you say you have lots of footage of Wong, do you mean lots of footage of him using his WC in a real fight, or lots of footage of him demo'ing using his WC.

I ask because, it seems to me, of all of the people who studied directly under YM, WSL is the only person no one disses when talking of real fighting skills and application. One YM lineage may slate another, but no one I have heard has said, "WSL was full of s.hit and couldn't fight."

So the statement that he relied more on boxing than WC interested me.

Ernie

05-26-2004, 09:05 AM

out of respect for those that have trusted me with video

i won't say exactly lets just say , i have footage of him when he is switched on and leave it at that

as for how good he was , i'm not into hero worship , i am more impressed by the research and development he did and the training methods he found that suited his vision of wing chun

i have had the pleasure of meeting a few of his instructors and there students and they are very street fight oriented , and that fits my personality

i have not trained in other systems of wing chun so i would never be able to make an honest assesment of this vs. that

nor would i care to , i look at over all progression towards the goals i see are benificial to being street efficient

how good some ones tan is or there stance or there form or there chi sau or what ever on a singular level doesn't interest me

but for some that's a big deal

for me it's haveing over all skill and anymethod i can use to refine that ability i will research be it wrong or right in the eyes of wing chun

so when i see a boxer i might see a chance to refine wing chun application

:D

Phenix

05-26-2004, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun

There's the problem, right there, Hendrik. Wing Chun has limited answers to attacks to the middle and especially the lower gates that are meant to take you down...sometimes they work - but at other times (ie.-against a skilled takedown artist who can disguise what's coming with a high strike first)...

against this guy...LOL.

But you already answered the question, as Andrew pointed out:

"And Wrestling and BJJ are ART too right?"

YES THEY ARE.

Smile... Though you're heart is achin'.
Smile...Even though it's breakin'
When there are clouds in the sky...You'll get by.

So you want to learn how to defend against takedowns? Just learn some wrestling.

And Smile!

Hey Victor,

You know I love to stirr things up to make life more fun. Hehehehe.

Honerstly, we might want to look into " Wing Chun has limited answers to attacks to the middle and especially the lower gates"
Is it WCK by nature like that or something was modified or all WCK lineage is like that.

I am not so sure that WCK in a certain part of the world was not in certain period of the history modified or over emphasis to lead to what happen today.

If you check into Bubishi -- the bible of Karate. YOu will see the old 1700 White Crane of Fujian application drawing got some lower gates attack and take down stuffs (I believe White Crane from Fujian is one of the mother of WCK. )and the not address of certain Zone, That tell lots of story about WCK's evolution.

Ernie,

Hehehehe,

Wu Su in Chinese actually means Martial TECHNOLOGy.
KUEN SU in Chinese actually means TEchnology for Punch (fighting).

ART is an sophisticated exercution of TECHNOLOGY.

So, WCK Kuen Su is The WC Fighting TECHNOLOGY.

Before fight, Check if one has the TECHNOLOGY.

SURE SURE, the one has the TECHNOLOGY might not always win. But the one DOESNT have the TECHNOLOGY almost certain has to do much much more to be able to WIN.

So, It is not that Just do it DEAL. hahahahh :D

Cant communicate with making smoke effectively isnt it? Cell phone is better. :D

Nothing was said about I want to use the 1950's telephone technology for 2050. Technology always progress and grow.

Cant be "just Do it" to start from making smoke from fire and deny all the telephone technology in 1950.

Hey Technology is about accumulation and integration . hhahahahaha :D

BTW, that kneeing to the ball.... stuffs. Doesnt work once one's CoG was even slight influent.

The old clasical , kuen kuit, the one you dont like to hear , said,

Raise your leg, half of you are hollow.

See, the old dead people like LJ or YK knows what they are talking about. :D

You dont believe the Kneeing is risky business? Check out the match between the Chinese San Da and the Thai boxer in 2002/3. San Da using the take down attacking the middle low zone, and Thai seldom can use Knee to knee them down. but got take down. So, that is a fact. the old dead master knows what they are talking about it.

Raise your leg, half of you are hollow. :D

So, WCK technolgy? hahahha,
1, learn about resultant force
2, learn about how to handle RESULTANT FORCE Once Contact.

hahahha all the SLT basic stuffs. No broken arrow. No .... raise your leg to make half of you hollow... and the Kuen Kuit continous..... :D

Ernie

05-26-2004, 09:37 AM

cool thing about the western mind and technology

once it's out dated we toss it aside no need to look back , only look at today and what is to come :D

i don't care what chinese definintions of words are , i only see human action that way i'm not pigeon holed into a certian view on things

why would you wear chinese slippers to a fight when you could have on a pair of nike's

but yet people will still try ha ha

Phenix

05-26-2004, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
cool thing about the western mind and technology

......why would you wear chinese slippers to a fight when you could have on a pair of nike's

but yet people will still try ha ha

IT is not western mind and technology. The whole esoteric buddhism where the SLT based from is a big Mama high Tech.:D

IT is not about chinese slippers or nikes.

It is about knowing how concept or misconcept manifest in the thought form, the Jing form, the breathing form, or the physical form. and the resultant of mind, body, breathing, qi, force vectors....

And if one knows the technollogy of manifest of concept and how to bring that to physical word. Chinese Slippers or AMarican Nike both have thier place.

Only then, one can said "Just Do it." hehehehe.
Before then, the question is Do you have the technology? Do you know the technology and practice it sophisticate enough to be come an art? hehehehe :D

baby Cant walk before one can craw. :D

So what do you do and teach? WC technology? :D:D:D:D :D:D:D
or ernie's art?

Ernie

05-26-2004, 09:52 AM

the question is Do you have the technology? hehehehe

2 arms 2 legs and a new pair of nikes is all i need

you can spin in circles all day with that jing buddha ding bing walla walla ding dong

endless waste of of words little emperor syndrone

a crisp shot to the nose or ball shot and every body drops the same

sweet simplicity :D

nice simple dircet english word with clear meaning not layers of self serving whoopie look at me i got a secret blah blah blah stuff

Ernie

05-26-2004, 09:58 AM

So what do you do and teach? WC technology?
or ernie's art?

i don't teach i only coach and guide

i offer experiences for one to get to know themselves

i study there weakness , perhaps it's footwork . balance . speed . timing ,power

and i dial it in based on there individual needs and abilities

no cookie cutter here bro

maybe i will use chi sau as an example , maybe i use a boxing example , basket ball , roller skating what ever

nothing fixed

maybe the person is just to emotional and i need to get in there head and find the cause of the problem or make them see themselves

you see hendrik i look and listen to the person , i let them tell and show me what they need

it's not about reproducing myself it's about them finding thereselves
i just use combative training as a process

maybe you use sitting in the sand in maui
what ever

Phenix

05-26-2004, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
the question is Do you have the technology? hehehehe

2 arms 2 legs and a new pair of nikes is all i need

you can spin in circles all day with that jing buddha ding bing walla walla ding dong

endless waste of of words little emperor syndrone

a crisp shot to the nose or ball shot and every body drops the same

sweet simplicity :D

nice simple dircet english word with clear meaning not layers of self serving whoopie look at me i got a secret blah blah blah stuff

So you hate DSP and C++ and Pentinum Technology? That is usual for anti-technologiest. :D

If you love the making fire to create smoke to communicate. why not? you are free to choose what you love:D

I love Cell phone and ethernet communication. It is much more simple and safe to turn on the phone and dial the number. Then, making fire, and depend on the wind. hahhahhahaaha

So you dont do WCK technology, BJJ technology, Mua Thai Technology ? :D

You have 2 arm and 2 legs? hahahaha

WCK technolgy has 2 arm, 2 elbow, 2 shoulder, one butt, 2 knees, 2 heels.... and list goes on. So, there are lots you dont have? :D

and by the way, WCK technology's SLT teach one how to link the tip of pinky to the heel of the foot too. :D

Jim Roselando

05-26-2004, 10:06 AM

Hello Ernie!

this more then one engine the human body can use to generate power , speed , balance and stability/ mobility

to me the real ''core '' is the ability to have balance speed power,mobility/stability ,sensitivity during the use of any of these engines/ positions/body postures

Excellent points but to me what you are talking about is Attributes rather than Engine. We may just have a different way of explaining things! :-)

For me the core is the Skeletal alignment and ways of issuing and recieving force with it. All the other goodies that help that core function like what you mentioned and sinking and this and that help bring the core together and to make them functional you need to fight people with your stuff.

I have to run! This work stuff really gets in the way of things! hehehe

Regards,

Ernie

05-26-2004, 10:12 AM

silly engineers

man is not a machine

man is flawed
so for all the pretty words and idea's you can come up with
in the end
it's the flaws that will dictate the out come

a kick in the balls worked then and a kick in the balls works now
only the attributes and delivery system has improved
only the training methods and environment has evolved

hendrik my friend lets be honest
who are you training how much have you improved today
what results have you achieved today

whens the last time you tried out your technobable on a skilled fighter

10 ,20 30 years ago

some karate dudes with linear attacks and no footwork and no understanding of distance
just hard conditiining

really bro come on
it's just idea's and words

you know i'm not attacking you and you know i like you as a person but as far as proof behind what you say i'm still waiting

Ernie

05-26-2004, 10:19 AM

jim
Excellent points but to me what you are talking about is Attributes rather than Engine. We may just have a different way of explaining things! :-)

jim
i'm sure we are on similar pages i just use a different approach there are alot of people on this forum that talk about all the great stuff wing chun brings to the table from a technical stand point

i prefer to look at it from a organic real world application stand point

we all know tan bong fook , center ,sinking ,projecting , pulling , being heavy and stable or empty like water . it's all part of the core system in one degree or another no matter what wing chun you look at

i don't get caught up in that it's in live application in non wing chun enviroments that interest me

and this will be different for every one . and i like that love to hear about the problems and break throughs people have in the here and now

so in many ways i come off as the other side of the coin :D

as you said time to go to work:mad:

Martin Foot

05-26-2004, 10:20 AM

ernie sez
"i think when it looks like wing chun [ training system ] you are not yet free , or the person your fighting has very little skill so you can look like you want "

I couldn't agree with you more mate

Phenix

05-26-2004, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
s

hendrik my friend lets be honest
who are you training how much have you improved today
what results have you achieved today

whens the last time you tried out your technobable on a skilled fighter .........

some karate dudes with linear attacks and no footwork and no understanding of distance
just hard conditiining

you know i'm not attacking you and you know i like you as a person but as far as proof behind what you say i'm still waiting

Ernie my friend,
Let's face the truth
Technology is always independent of who practiced it.
That's why the bad guys in James bond movies always love to get the technology. :D

As for footwork of Karate, I think that is what my Great Sigung MAS Oyama's comment for other martial system. isnt it? :D

It will be fun if one do this experient. Because it is about the idea of if the old kuen kuit way works rather then if Mas Oyama will beat Mohamat ALI or vice versal. or who is stronger or tough or number one.

Get a guy or girl who has more then 3 years of WCK experience .

You train him/her for eight hours on your way about how to handle his or her body with your SLT set.

And I got the same guy or girl. I train him or her for half of the time with SLT in the old kuen kuit way. (but he/she has to sign a legal non disclosure not to reviel of what I thought him/her or subject to law sue :D) And after that, let him or her tell the public what is the different in his/her capabilities of using his/her body? :D

A coke or pepsi , a modern and old ways comparison right?
and see what can be achieve in half of the time using the old ways. Sure, the old ways might fail totally and it is a crab. but what if the old ways produce transcending the body and addressing all the zones result compare with the new ways?

Nothing personal, it is just a good experient.

So, using the same set , the same person, but different training keys , one is using half of the time of other, and see what kind of result the teaching produce?

Ernie

05-26-2004, 10:50 AM

i could take the same person
get there basic mechanics down in 6 months then get them in the ring and sparring , condition them for 3 years and they will rip both the slt people apart

i would never waste someones time with 3 years of slt training
i would have them find the skills under pressure

later when there old and bored they can talk about all over analized details

hendrik [You train him/her for eight hours about how to handle his or her body with your SLT set. ]]

i would see 8 hours a day of slt training a waste of time and life
better spend half the time enjoying life and the other half applying skill i have no faith in dry land swimming it is a way for people to pretend to fight and never have to face any real skill

sad but true

hendrik
[[And I got the same guy or girl. I train him or her for half of the time with SLT in my way. but he/she has to sign a non disclosure of what I thought him/her. And after that, let him or her tell you what is the different in his/her capabilities of using his/her body? ]]

bro sign a disclosure form this make me worry a little about your mental state and authentisity
bamboo curtain crap , if some one ever told me i they had a secret way or i had to keep things secret i would no they were full of s hit
it's like low level brainwashing

this is exactly what i would do , i would tell the person to glove up and prove the secret to me point blank no b.s.

beware of false prophets my friend and please don't become one

Phenix

05-26-2004, 10:59 AM

hendrik [You train him/her for eight hours about how to handle his or her body with your SLT set. ]]

i would see 8 hours a day of slt training a waste of time and life
better spend half the time enjoying life and the other half applying skill i have no faith in dry land swimming it is a way for people to pretend to fight and never have to face any real skill
sad but true-------------E

You certainly welcome to believe so. But in WCK, I think, there is a reason why SLT is there.
So, the key is how to make use of what some think it is useless usefull. And to be able to turn what is useless into usefull is the fun of the game.

hendrik
[[And I got the same guy or girl. I train him or her for half of the time with SLT in my way. but he/she has to sign a non disclosure of what I thought him/her. And after that, let him or her tell you what is the different in his/her capabilities of using his/her body? ]]

bro sign a disclosure form this make me worry a little about your mental state and authentisity
bamboo curtain crap , if some one ever told me i they had a secret way or i had to keep things secret i would no they were full of s hit
it's like low level brainwashing -------------- E

When dealing with Technology, There is patent and non disclosure to protect both party . That is a fair deal. Practice all the time in Silicon Valley.

When looking at other's technology between companies Non disclosure need to be signed. A good practice to keep both party honest. :D

beware of false prophets my friend and please don't become one ---- E

It is about trying to reconstucting what the ancestors of WCK preach, has nothing to do about to be a religious prophets. If the technology works then great. if not that is great too. Plenty of Research and Design carry on in the Valley everyday. and nothing is Guarentee, but all is about searching for the truth . nothing personal. and truth in technology is time independent. and ofcorse, there is no Omni technology which is good for everything.

Ernie

05-26-2004, 11:08 AM

hendrik
but all is about searching for the truth

this i can agree with , you seek your truth in old words and sitting instances and breathing , centering your mind and transfering your chi

i will seek mine training the concepts under pressure , in motion at speed and power , spending my time practicing the actual application , and find my center and balance and breating durining this process

some end goal one the way of words the other the way of personal experiences :D

the whole disclosure thing is still creepy ha ha ha

Phenix

05-26-2004, 11:39 AM

Ernie,

See,

The following is the story tell by your great Sigung.

--------------
Ng Mui took refuge in the White Crane Temple on Mt. Tai Leung [also known as Mt. Chai Har]. It was there she met Yim Yee and his daughter Wing Chun from whom she often bought bean curd on her way home from the market. At fifteen, with her hair bound up in the custom of those days to show she was of an age to marry, Wing Chun's beauty attracted the attention of a local bully. He tried to force Wing Chun to marry him, and his continuous threats became a source of worry to her and her father. Ng Mui learned of this and took pity on Wing Chun.

She agreed to teach Wing Chun fighting techniques so she could protect herself. Wing Chun followed Ng Mui into the mountains, and began to learn Kung Fu. She trained night and day, until she mastered the techniques. Then she challenged the bully to a fight and beat him.

-----------------------------

The story, the legend, the fable, might have some true. If Ng Mui can train Wing Chun in a short time. nothing mention WingChun to become the Champion of CHINA. If GM Yip put his name behind this story while he told the world, he must have belive in this art.

So, Not be too fast to nagate the art, the legend, the story. and SLT has its purpose for sure. just perhaps we dont know.

Why Ng Mui Starts Wing Chun's Training with SLT? Why GM Yip and all others GM of other lineages starts the Training with SLT? there has to be a good reason a practiced was carried out for hundred of years in different region of the world. it is beyong personal experience. it is about Technology.

So, if after one did SLT and one's capabilities improve more then 3x or more and will since then improve continously why not?
There might be just so that it is a truth beyond personal experience. One doesnt have to believe cell phone to work for it to work.

now that is the "tranditional Chinese WCK" ( do not mistaken the term traditional here.) There can be a Mars WCK or a Moon WCK. that is fine.
however, When talking about " TRanditional Chinese WCK". there is an established technology where it was there for decades and decades, cant be as one likes it.

if one searching for one's own personal experience. Then that is not WCK technology. WCK technology discussion is about wck technology nothing personal.

So, WCK technology, the art of WCK cant be a Just Do it fighting.
There are always value in the "Tradition of the ancestors."

and when you are above 45 may be you want to give me your 4 hours for that SLT to restore your heart energy and transcent. hahahah :D
Then, you dont need to sign the non disclosure. healing with SLT is free of Charge and non pattented! :D

Ernie

05-26-2004, 12:08 PM

thanks for the ''story'' bro

but i have no great si whatever
i have only the people i train with , i don't care about what some one '' might '' have thought was a good idea back in a world were information was limited and education was next to nothing , what they thought was secret or great we see as no big deal people and information evolves

[[[[So, Not be too fast to nagate the art, the legend, the story. and SLT has its purpose for sure. just perhaps we dont know]]]]

exactly we don't know all speculation , show me to day in a live enviroment with a athletic opponent , then we can talk
if you can't then it's all just an endless string of empty words

[[Why Ng Mui Starts Wing Chun's Training with SLT? Why GM Yip and all others GM of other lineages starts the Training with SLT? there has to be a good reason a practiced was carried out for hundred of years in different region of the world. it is beyong personal experience. it is about Technology]]]

why does a boxer practice footwork,jabs crosses hooks , heavy bag , hill sprints

why does a kali man practice solo drills
why do both practice shoadow boxing
simple to gain balance , coordination , relaxation , power speed ,
the key is it's all done in motion the same way it is applied

they don't need to ask why , the results are there right away . no need for disclosure :D

so what if yip man did it so what if if it's been done for hundreds of years , if thats the case there should be great people poping up every day
but there is not is there ?

perhaps to many chasing shadows of the past and trying to be artist when they should be training for today and dealing with it on a personal level not trying to imitate some dead guy

[[[So, if after one did SLT and one's capabilities improve more then 3x or more and will since then improve continously why not?
There might be just so that it is a truth beyond personal experience. One doesnt have to believe cell phone to work for it to work.]]]]

so by that math your kung fu should be hundreds of times better and so should alot of peoples but again it's not is it ?

so here comes the common response the '' well they don't do it my way , or they don't know what i do , or even worse well master this and that di it along time ago '' nothing that can be proven today though right ?

and the words just keep pouring out
hendrik no matter how you word it or package it or tie it to some old story , i won't believe it till i see it in a live enviroment and even then i still have to see the training methods and if it works with more then one person , how long it takes and if it's worth it , what are the probabilities of it happening in a street situation
if it doesn't suit that criteria then to me it's worthless

Phenix

05-26-2004, 02:24 PM

but i have no great si whatever

i have only the people i train with , i don't care about what some one '' might '' have thought was a good idea back in a world were information was limited and education was next to nothing , what they thought was secret or great we see as no big deal people and information evolves ----- E

[[[[So, Not be too fast to nagate the art, the legend, the story. and SLT has its purpose for sure. just perhaps we dont know]]]]

exactly we don't know all speculation , show me to day in a live enviroment with a athletic opponent , then we can talk
if you can't then it's all just an endless string of empty words ---
E

Seems that you no longer Do WCK anymore since you dont have --- no great si whatever

as for your view , ofcorse it is a free will world you can believe all you want.

hendrik no matter how you word it or package it or tie it to some old story , i won't believe it till i see it in a live enviroment and even then i still have to see the training methods and ...--- E

you also nagate my Sigung :D Mas Oyama's work. So, go a head, nagate Andy Hug... K1... and Kyokushin . They all are not real and Mas Oyama's kyokushin also endless string of empty words.

Sure they all are old story and Mas Oyama's Zen and Andy Hug .... doesnt exist. I dont exist either. hahahaa.

Mas Oyama, Yip Man's existance didnt seem to depend on whether you believe or not. They just exist. You certainly dont have to believe in me. and it is not my goal to ask you to believe.
:D

SLT works. :D

PaulH

05-26-2004, 02:45 PM

Somewhere along the winding string of sense and sensibility, the logical conclusions of both engaging parties become surreal! Ha! Ha!

Phenix

05-26-2004, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Somewhere along the winding string of sense and sensibility, the logical conclusions of both engaging parties become surreal! Ha! Ha!

the topic of this discussion is about When an art becomes a Just do it fighting.

BJJ is an art. Kyokushin is an art. WCK is an art. Mua Thai is an art.

Just do it fighting is not an art :D

what exist doesnt need logic just need to take a look. Exist or not. have the technology or not.

So, my final conclusion is

when an art becomes a Just do it fighting. There is no longer art there but personal experience which might or might not be that art. hehehehe

can one claim to teach WCK without SLT but just do it fighting is WCK? NO

Chiao :D

PaulH

05-26-2004, 03:27 PM

Hendrik,

Just do it fighting appeals greatly to the natural man. Its eloquent simplicity and directness of how to deal with real problems is somewhat a lost transcending art in an age of sophistication.

P.S. I have some bananas at home for you two! =)

anerlich

05-26-2004, 03:38 PM

can one claim to teach WCK without SLT but just do it fighting is WCK? NO

Debatable ...

Does Gu Lao have SLT, or just the 40 points? If only the latter, there goes Hendrik's argument.

Ernie

05-26-2004, 03:43 PM

hendrik
[[Seems that you no longer Do WCK anymore since you dont have --- no great si whatever ]]]

now you understand , i am free , to do wing chun , to do slt is to exisit with in the confines of a training system

to express your skill and relate to a live opponent and adapt with out thought or predetermined shape

is to be natural . use wing chun don't let it use you
meaning let the training system give you idea's and methods
but let experience be your guide

yip man master bull killer john wayne , mickey mouse

non of them matter only you and the moment , they are not there for you in a fight only you .

so no time to ''do'' wing chun or slt
only time to '' just do it '' and go home alive

once you ''do'' you remove yourself from what actually is happening , no time for art , only honest expression

but if all you do is sit in a stance you can pretend to ''do'' or ''be'' any one you want
:)

reality works , everything else is just an idea

paulJust do it fighting appeals greatly to the natural man. Its eloquent simplicity and directness of how to deal with real problems is somewhat a lost transcending art in an age of sophitification. =) ]]]

if you are talking about fighting for your life , simplicity is the key
if your talking about preserving some dance steps for the sake of freeze framing culture in a certian era then go for it

if you never plan on testing your idea's then you can think and do what you want there is not checks or balances

once you put it in the pressure cooker
you find out real quick what fly's or you get dropped

[[

PaulH

05-26-2004, 04:02 PM

"is to be natural . use wing chun don't let it use you
meaning let the training system give you idea's and methods
but let experience be your guide - Ernie"

You should have clarified this point earlier, bro! =)

Ernie

05-26-2004, 04:16 PM

You should have clarified this point earlier, bro! =)

ha ha
no way i'm learning from hendrik dance around the truth,
never accept persoanl responsibility , only talk about other peoples abilites , and when cornered call it a free world turn into a bat or what ever movie he just watched and fly over the rainbow with a pen,a tent . a pillow ,a kung pow dvd and an 8 x 10 of diaz or hilton

got ot love that guy he's just nuts

but of course in a free world you can think what ever you want ha ha ha ha :D :D

PaulH

05-26-2004, 04:26 PM

Laughters is the best medicine. =)

yylee

05-26-2004, 06:28 PM

Ah, just to cool off the debate. Let's just watch uncle Bruce does his SNT, enjoy... :)

http://www.wck-media.co.uk/general/Yip_Man/bl.mpg

Ultimatewingchun

05-26-2004, 07:38 PM

Another quote from Hendrik:

"Honestly, we might want to look into " Wing Chun has limited answers to attacks to the middle and especially the lower gates."

But I HAVE looked into it for many years now - up close and personal...as well as watching and observing others.

And I firmly believe that wc has limited answers to dealing with middle, and especially low....shoots and takedowns.

Smile, bro...and learn some grappling.

Ernie

05-26-2004, 10:57 PM

Let's just watch uncle Bruce does his SNT,

ha ha perfect :)

Gangsterfist

05-27-2004, 12:10 AM

I was avoiding this thread but something ernie wrote earlier really caught my eye.

He said wing chun and SLT builds ideas.

My first wing chun sifu, who had a great influence on me, once told me something while training. This statement he told me allowed for me to have a break through in my training and allowed me to advance my skill further. I understood what it was all about from one little sentence, one "little idea."

We were doing SLT in class and sometimes we would discuss theory while we did it. He said in SLT there are no answers. You are not training to find answers in combat, or in life, or in anything. What the SLT teaches you is an idea, a concept, and an energy which can be applied countless ways depending on the situation. Training the SLT everyday will help you build ideas on how to use your body and your structure.

Ever since that class when he said that to us while doing the form I have never used strict wing chun while sparring. I have used everything I have been taught and learned on my own. I know a bit of southern dragon kung fu, taiji, ryukyu kempo karate, a few things from choy lay fut, a few things from boxing, etc etc.

Each of them are still ideas and concepts until they are applied in real life. Knowing what a tan sao is and how it is used, is not the same as actually using it.

I found that the SLT represents that idea, and teaches you this. My training has always progressed in one way or another and I am sure that perhaps one day the idea behind SLT will change for me. Who knows, and I try not to dwell on it.

Best of luck in your training,
GF

captain

05-27-2004, 05:38 AM

mostly, [admit this] this very site is preoccupied with anxities about the shortcomngs of wing chun.there is a gulf at the moment between wing chun's expectations and results.

Jim Roselando

05-27-2004, 06:22 AM

Hello Andrew,

Hendrik wrote:

can one claim to teach WCK without SLT but just do it fighting is WCK? NO

Andrew wrote:

Debatable ...

Does Gu Lao have SLT, or just the 40 points? If only the latter, there goes Hendrik's argument.

Andrew,

I would have to disagree with you. One of the points that Hendrik is making is that when SLT was developed it had the technology or info. to help speed up the process of using ones body and other stuff. Now! With that in mind I can tell you why I disagree with you!

Leung Jan's final synthesis does have SLT core in it. The first two sets of the Sup Yee Do Kuen are called Siu Lin Tau and Dai Lin Tau! Actually, Dai Lin Tau contains 3 sections one of which is Som Bai Fut and the other is the Sae Mun Bai Jee. These were the skills that Leung Jan retained from his original full Siu Lin Tau set as the roots of his Koo Lo/Pin Sun art. So, yes we do have the essence of SLT in our art but what it is what Leung Jan felt was the essence for development.

Next! Keeping in mind that the WC art had the technology to develop the human attributes/mechanics at a faster rate I can tell you that this was also one of Leung Jan's ideas. By focussing on the essentials with boat loads of repitition one can burn into their natural ways the mechanics at a faster rate. So, while his final developmental platform may not have the entire linked sets of his original art his main idea did not change from the orignal idea Hendrik is discussing. The human body can only move in so many ways. Isolating/Focusing on those ways will bring out the natural abilities is quicker process. This is a part of the whole Koo Lo/Pin Sun Wing Chun idea!

Hope that helps!

Regards,

Phenix

05-27-2004, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Another quote from Hendrik:

"Honestly, we might want to look into " Wing Chun has limited answers to attacks to the middle and especially the lower gates."

But I HAVE looked into it for many years now - up close and personal...as well as watching and observing others.

And I firmly believe that wc has limited answers to dealing with middle, and especially low....shoots and takedowns.

Smile, bro...and learn some grappling.

Victor,

The years was 1580, a year of unsignificant. Then, in China, there were two types of take down / falling art. The "Thousand Take down art" of Mr Thousand Takedown Zhang. The "18 just touch cloth take down art " of Mr Yian Ching.

WCK was created much later then 1600. WCK has to survive those.....

I belive your sure has looking into it for many years. However, we all has limitation in our observation and prejudice on where to find things...... Just human.

Phenix

05-27-2004, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
You should have clarified this point earlier, bro! =)

ha ha
no way i'm learning from hendrik dance around the truth,......a pillow ,a kung pow dvd and an 8 x 10 of diaz or hilton

got ot love that guy he's just nuts

but of course in a free world you can think what ever you want ha ha ha ha :D :D

A pillow, just a pillow technology will train and tell alots.

one who practice with pillow hugging technology knows what a insignificant light weight pillow will do to one's CoG and balance and technic execution when it rest on one's body.

Thus, they will not knee those grapper who comes in..... like some great fighters. so they will not be taken down like those Thai Boxer while fighting with the Chinese San Da team. heheheh :D

They never because what doesnt make sense and will not work with a simple soft pillow will not work with a san da, BJJ or Wrestle who is alive.

The ancient ancestors of WCK said, raise your leg, half of your body is hollow . The ancestors has plenty of great technology.

See, I am surely lazy , old, and Nuts hahhaha; and dont like that "Just do it fighting "which has to find out in the hard way that a pillow tell alots. :D

You dont believe me? Dont have to.
Just hug a long pillow and observe your technics exercution and you shall see. That simple. The WCK technology of body balancing Sensing--- The Pillow Work. :D

Why long pillow? because it cover all zones .. :D
Some asked me awhile ago, is it ok to just imagine it? Nope.
until you hug a pillow. your mind doesnt have a good picture about all your zones. hehehehe. Top WCK technology and I give it out free and nah no need to sign Non-Disclosure Agreement. hehehehe

hahahahhaaha

Nike shoe certainly has its place for walking and running. But pillow has to deal with laying down and hugging. I dont use a Nike for sleep and will not ware a pillow for running. So nah, there is about technology not that Just do it fighting. :D

BTW, it is great to learn from the pillow that one can wrap and nail the pillow with one's both legs. I think that is what those Grapper and BJJ do right? Wrap around and pin the heck the pillow (oops opponent) on ground. hahahahaha.

Pillow Pillow Wing Chun's pillow you teach me so much. Sure I am nuts. hahahahaha Nike will not know this. :D

Phenix

05-27-2004, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Keeping in mind that the WC art had the technology to develop the human attributes/mechanics at a faster rate I can tell you that this was also one of Leung Jan's ideas. By focussing on the essentials with boat loads of repitition one can burn into their natural ways the mechanics at a faster rate. So, while his final developmental platform may not have the entire linked sets of his original art his main idea did not change from the orignal idea Hendrik is discussing. The human body can only move in so many ways. Isolating/Focusing on those ways will bring out the natural abilities is quicker process. This is a part of the whole Koo Lo/Pin Sun Wing Chun idea!

Hi Jim, Yes WC art had the technology.
SLT is a concept of technology. SLT lost its meaning when it become a sequence of movements or fragmented move.... IMHO

Here is a record you might want to know.

Remember I talk about Diaz and Paris and the Wakiki beach and the Cross bow and the wave surfing and at the end the Vertical wave horizontal waving? VWHW

OK.

The year was 1988. Sometimes in May. The location was Ames, Iowa. Iowa State University's compus town.

I was sitting in my friend's toyota corola's front sit "dead sit "beside the drive. before I buckle up my safety belt after we did grocery shoping.

We got a head to head accident with a wrongly turn 60's old American large size car. The driver friend of mine turn my side of the car toward the crashing. ( i guess that is how a friend behave when it is between me or him :D) So, I was in the dead sit, seeing the Big American tank crush into the colora's frame infront of me similar to cutting tofu. The collision stop after it hit the engine of the colora. Both cars are travel about 30 to 35 miles per hour.

So, the tough part is that I was in the front sit, no sit belt to stop me to crush forward. nothing I can hold on too.

if you have ever watch the Driving School video about how the Dummy experience the "second " crush you know what I am talking about. Dummy crush forward and damage the wind sheld....

So, what happen is that. subsconciously, I was "Chi "sticking my inner fore arm in a double bong sau manner (not quiet but still look like I have a crane wing or vampire wings to cover from the cross :D that form a triangle between my head and both elbow to the wind sheld, my legs are in some kind of YJKYM rooting way. and I was using the VWHW Fa Jing method to transfer the impact into me to my butt.

So, the end result is, after atleast 4 bounce front and back. I didnt break the wind sheld, but I shink my car sit's steel frame around 1 to 2 inches deep toward the car's floor.

when the amburance comes, they told me to stay in the car that they will carry me out. But because the chair frame is sink down ward. They can't carry me out. So, Well, I walk out myself. With slight bump on my head. nothing big deal.

So, you can check this with the Trafic record of AMes, Iowa and the Student center medical center and the ambulance record.

Why do I share with you this? It is about there are technology of SLT which we are not fully understand yet. IT is not about I know it all or ... I am just lucky that the ancestors' technology train me to safe my life from a car accident which in 1850. They dont even know how a Colora or car looks like.

So, yes VWHW works. IF it can redirect the energy and mometum impact of a two 35 miles cars collotion to me into the car sit frame via my butt without damaging my spine and body and my structure can sustain the impact dynamicly.

But up to now, I dont know how to make use of that similar to WXZ to bounce the one who rush in at me yet. I guess there must be not too many human can generate the impact similar to that two cars unless it is the Green Incredible Hug. :D So WXZ's story is true. and my experience proof his skill is possible in a invert way.

PS:

That will required Non-Disclosure Agreement to release the information when I know how :D. The great about it is I DONT KNOW HOW. SO I stay at not a thing or not a body instead become the Green Man incredible Hug. hahahaha

Now, dont try this at home:D and Dont just Do it fighting ( cant fight a big mama car which is crushing in ) :D
I am just pure pure lucky in the right time and right place and the right wave.

( the nurse who check me in the Iowa State Student medica center told me -- "hey you are just fresh and bone human, how can your martail art training work against machine. dont be silly. let me check if any broken bone..... etc." hahaha. nothing wrong Nurse! I got the wave!):D

Sure I am nuts as Ernie Said, Hey Ernie, that Nike doesnt help me. BEing with Diaz or Paris, playing ocean wave in Waikiki or hanna make my VWHW better though :D hehehehehe

Relax. Some great old WC man was dreaming in the Opium house everyday and still beat that boxing young guy with nike easily . :D
and that is WC technology. hahahhaa

PaulH

05-27-2004, 12:08 PM

Don't forget about the hula dance, Hendrik! ~@@~

You know Gary just gave a seminar a few weeks ago. He is going to make it available to the public in 3 DVDs soon covering the whole system of WC based from his accumulated years of fighting, learning, and researching with other WC people like WSL, Hawkins Cheung, and other greats. No, you don't have to go to China and spend many years of fighting to get the soon to be published info. I love it! I hope his generous and giving efforts will result in more understanding, growth, and progress to the WC world in the 21st century. It's all about giving back something to the art that you love. I hope you too can figure out ways to make your WC methods more accessible.

Regards,
PH

Phenix

05-27-2004, 12:12 PM

Don't forget about the hula dance, Hendrik! ~@@~

hahhaa. Hula dance is great!

Next time you want to challenge my WC self-defence technology show me your man vesus machine Record first! hehehehe
Like Oyama said, bull never pull back. and machine also never pull back. :D :D :D :D

You know Gary just gave a seminar a few weeks ago. He is going to make it available to the public in 3 DVDs soon covering the whole system of WC based from his accumulated years of fighting, learning, and researching with other WC people like WSL, Hawkins Cheung, and other greats. No, you don't have to go to China and spend many years of fighting to get the soon to be published info. I love it! I hope his generous and giving efforts will result in more understanding, growth, and progress to the WC world in the 21st century. It's all about giving back something to the art that you love. I hope you too can figure out ways to make your WC methods more accessible. -----------

That is the Great of Gary! I respect him a great deal for sharing!

PS:
I might want to call him to not wear that nike :D :D:D

ok, pual, let get to a car and sit in the fron seat without a seat belt. hehehehehehehe. that is the best way in the mean time I can think about how to figure out the WC methods I know. ;) ;)

have you buy your POLO long pillow yet? I am going to do a seminal soon with Jim in Boston :D

PaulH

05-27-2004, 12:24 PM

I got the pillow but not your understanding of how to use it!
Maybe Jim can videotape the seminar? =)

P.S. That car story is pretty amazing!

Ernie

05-27-2004, 02:09 PM

hey hendrik did you say sonmething
you lost me at [[[The ancient ancestors of WCK said]]]

paul
hendrick won't like what gary shows , because gary doesn't sit there and put you to sleep with talking he pulls it off against a real attacking person ha ha ha ha

no need for wasted words pure action and drills to teach the action

everything else just people talking to hear there own voice

TheBlackDragons

05-27-2004, 02:10 PM

from Form to formlessness

1.at first You have to learn proper forms

2. at the highest level Since you have practiced Techniques
until they are just a reaction the same if someone throws
something at your face and you catch it

3. Art= Is the final result of when someone attacks you react
not debating form . Since it is an instinct and has to mold to the situation. The flowing of theese reactions is True Art In my opinion.

Peace Then War Then Peace

Phenix

05-27-2004, 02:11 PM

This is a serious urge for the junior and young people who read this discussion.

Buckel up your seat belt when you are in a CAR and DO NOT TRY ANY STUNT.

VWHW works but you dont know when it might break or you might falling a sleep or having a cold that weaken your body condition.

BUCKEL UP your seat belt. That technology is far superior then the VWHW when it comes for the safety and saving life when one is in a vehicle.

This is serious. I have no choice to provoke my practice. But you dont have to risk what I have risk.

I just got my offer letter from National Semiconductor Inc of Silicon Valley to be a Chip Design Engineer that morning. I just graduate from my graduate school of engineering. I have a bright future. And I might be killed or severely injured or paralysed that afternoon and destroy my life. what if my VWHW doesnt work?

So, Dont be a Dummy. Dont take Chance. BUCKEL UP your seat belt. it is not worthed to be careless or macho!

I post here to tell the truth about there are such technology in WCK. BUT, that is not for a replacement of Safety Belt and safety precaution. It is not worthed to be Macho or I am number one I know those powerfull technics or I am cool when it comes to safety! Your life is important.

Phenix

05-27-2004, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by TheBlackDragons

Peace Then War Then Peace

I will match for peace not match against war. --- mother Teresa.

Phenix

05-27-2004, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by Ernie

hendrick won't like what gary shows ,.....

When do you take a class in Mind reading and "Pyschic" ?
Not knowing you believe in something you never see and proven reliable. :D
you need to get a refund from that instructor man. :D

Tell him/her you miss read hendrik's mind totally. hahahaha.

See, technology is not just do it. that including reading mind. hehehehe:D

Try this out to see what type of Sushi you like and may be it do fortune telling too. :D
http://www.astprince.com/english/sushi/indexe.html

Ultimatewingchun

05-27-2004, 02:36 PM

Ernie

05-27-2004, 02:45 PM

When do you take a class in Mind reading and "Pyschic"

of course if you can tell the future from the past then i can read minds
makes just as much sense

if you can talk about grappling , and boxing with out ever facing it
with out even putting yourself in that situation with a modern fighter

yet you have all these '' answers '' ha ha man come on

Phenix

05-27-2004, 03:14 PM

"I believe you sure have been looking into it for many years. However, we all has limitation in our observation and prejudice on where to find things...... Just human."

And with this quote, Hendrik my boy...You once again (how many thousands of times has it been now?)...

You once again demonstrate that in your mind - YOU CAN NEVER BE WRONG. --- V

Nope. that is your conclusion base on your logic but not what I demonstrate.

I state my view that:

"Human has limitation in our observation and prejudice on where to find things...... Just human."

I respect your work you put in , but I wont discount the facts you see and I dont have to take your word as the only truth isnt ? And not take your words to be the truth doesnt mean I can never be wrong or not respecting your work isnt it?

perhaps because we work in a different profession. in my work, there is no design is the bestEST design; one can design to satisfy a needs, and still be true viewing from many angles. There is no one solution. one respect others design but never take other's design as the creation of God.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's not to say that you proclaim this publicly; in the contrary, you often say things like: "I could be wrong about this"...

BUT YOU DON'T EVER MEAN THOSE WORDS.---- V

I can be asertive on what I think but that doesnt mean I dont ever mean I could be wrong.

I can accept your view, however, I dont think anyone's view is the only truth. there are plenty room for truths and facts.

Further more, There are a Chance of both view is true, both view is wrong, one is true the other is wrong, both view are not hitting the point, both view are.... lots of posibilities.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

It's you who is demonstrating limitations in your observations about wing chun vs. takedowns. And it's you who is prejudiced AGAINST grappling arts and who is prejudiced IN FAVOR OF your beloved wing chun.

Regardless of what the facts are. -----

The facts can be :

1, you might know the truth and I dont
2, you might not know the truth and I dont either
3, ....
4,....

Any of those facts has no where comes close to making accusation on others.

I dont expect anyone to agree with me and I dont have to agree with anyone on thier view.
I respect your search but I dont take anyone include my view to the the only God's truth.

Life and reality is not just digital 0 and 1 like. Life is analog and paradox.

Hope you understand how I view things.

But there is no who against who. It is about searching the possibilities of what happen in the past.

I respect your work but I am not obligate to take anyone's view including mine ( for I might change evol ....etc constantly) as the omni truth in this word.

Phenix

05-27-2004, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Ernie

if you can talk about grappling , and boxing with out ever facing it
with out even putting yourself in that situation with a modern fighter

yet you have all these '' answers '' ha ha man come on

hahahaha, I talk about Oyama and any hug too. but you think they are non exist similar to me and all those old wck ancestors non exist. hehehehe

You certainly can talk all about boxing .... or just do it figthing.... all you want.

but,

I thought this is a WCK discussion forum isnt it?:D
what's wrong with different WCK view on how to dealing with different zone?
and you nagate WCK and SLT, isnt it? :D

want to get back to SLT discussion? instead of predicting what I think about Gary? hehehehe :D

Ernie

05-27-2004, 03:29 PM

You certainly can talk all about boxing .... or just do it figthing

there is a difference , i will put my research on the line and '' just do it ''

and you my friend hmmmmmmm

as for slt

wing chun application is so much more then slt

for example

if all you do is slt and never apply you will get dropped

if all you do is , just do it as you put it and fight and train like a fighter

you will be able to fight

so whats the point

do we aloow ourselves to be trapped by the training system[ slt ]

or do we go out and apply [ just do it ]

or do we give the training system life by applying

, you can tell a man every little detail about swimming have pretend to swimm for years tell him what to feel and how to think
and then toss him in the water and watch him drown

or better example you can tell some one how great it is to have sex[make love for the bible thumpers] all day and explain evey emotion

but no until that person experiences will he know what you are talking about

so yes this is a wing chun forum and wing chun is about combat
if not just talk tai chi

anerlich

05-27-2004, 03:32 PM

:o

How the car story and what was basically a lucky escape after the extreme foolishness of not wearing a seat belt applies to the original subject of the thread escapes me.

This thread scores 12 out of 10 on the pointless psychobabble scale, new ground in purgatory has been broken. Bravo!

Phenix

05-27-2004, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
You certainly can talk all about boxing .... or just do it figthing

there is a difference , i will put my research on the line and '' just do it ''

and you my friend hmmmmmmm

as for slt

wing chun application is so much more then slt .........

I belive
You certainly put your research on the line and "just do it".

But, is your view the view of Yim Wing Chun or Ng Mui or Miu Soon Who created the system and the only view? Or just your view? how about the methodology and method of WCK technology?

Can Wing Chun application be much more then SLT. Can a 10Ampere maximum power supply driving a 20 ampere motor?

if all you do is slt and never apply you will get dropped -----E

this is very true. I certainly agree with you.
However, SLT might not be as what you think it is.

Phenix

05-27-2004, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by anerlich
:o

How the car story and what was basically a lucky escape after the extreme foolishness of not wearing a seat belt applies to the original subject of the thread escapes me.

This thread scores 12 out of 10 on the pointless psychobabble scale, new ground in purgatory has been broken. Bravo!

sure is lucky isnt it? :D

Buckel your sit belt.

Ernie

05-27-2004, 04:00 PM

But, is your view the view of Yim Wing Chun or Ng Mui or Miu Soon Who created the system and the only view? Or just your view?

gee I don't know lets hold a séance and ask them , duh
gimme a break ,
lets see there is no proof of there skill , they never had to face modern fighters of different size and exceptional skill
all the video of old Chinese masters I have ever seen , looked horrible like they couldn't fight there way out of a paper bag ,
god forbid have a 250 pound athlete with fighting skill ripping there heads off
come to think of it I don't think I would trust any of those *******s in a bar fight

I could just see it now tables fly bottles break and there in the center a little man doing his slt , I feel a good video spoof coming

look man I got an open mind but , it needs to be proven hear and now under pressure today , that's reality everything is lacks foundation

might as well practice levitation

danger will robinson danger danger , dude i am not a robot nor do i wish to be some one else
fighting is personal training is personal based off the individual and there abilites
what how imaginary great grand pooba did or used something has nothing to do with you and how you will pull it off
especially if the guy was a fake and the stories were more myth then fact
your setting yourself up for failure , and a good old beat down as well

how many nuts are running around in there kung fu uniforms with there chinese slippers

every day talking all the chi jing blah blah that can't even deal with a friggen jab

wake up , put away the tent,pillow and hilton porn and walk into a nice boxing gym [ i recomend wild card here in l.a.
take all you slt babble get infront of one of these regular guys and see what happens
then report back to me with your findings and we can have a conversation on reality

until then even though i like you , it's all fantasy

but it's a free world and i can believe what ever i want
:D

Phenix

05-27-2004, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
But, is your view the view of Yim Wing Chun or Ng Mui or Miu Soon Who created the system and the only view? Or just your view?

gee I don't know lets hold a séance and ask them , duh
gimme a break , ...........

There is osense way, there is oyama way, there is ernie way, there is..... way.. that is fine.

Some Great old WCK who always lay on that opium bed can beat that young boxing guy easily. He has his way.

hahaha, it is ok to be your own view. but the world doesnt have to turn according to anyone's way right? :D

Ernie

05-27-2004, 04:12 PM

Some Great old WCK who always lay on that opium bed can beat that young boxing guy easily. He has his way.

find that guy and i will box him with gloves and he can have bare hands and use feet

just tell me when no problem

until then hhhhhhmmmmmm whatever

as you said though we each have our own way it can be no other way since we are individuals not a collective

so why waste time with ghost when we are living now

Phenix

05-27-2004, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
Some Great old WCK who always lay on that opium bed can beat that young boxing guy easily. He has his way.

find that guy and i will box him with gloves and he can have bare hands and use feet

just tell me when no problem

until then hhhhhhmmmmmm whatever

as you said though we each have our own way it can be no other way since we are individuals not a collective

so why waste time with ghost when we are living now

Didnt Yip Man beat WSL? and WSL is your sigung?

beware of the way we dont see.

Ernie

05-27-2004, 04:18 PM

i'm not wong
wong was a small dude i am not
and chinese boxing in the 50's couldn't even compare to the skill in the states

that was then , this is now which is exactly my point
shouldn't confuse the two
might lead you down a false path;)

Phenix

05-27-2004, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
i'm not wong
wong was a small dude i am not
and chinese boxing in the 50's couldn't even compare to the skill in the states

So you think if you are Wong, you can beat Yip Man?

Ernie

05-27-2004, 04:45 PM

have to be there to find out

find me an old wck opium master now and we can test

oh wait i forgot there are none right

but again you are still useing the dead to deal with your reality

no foundation bro

Phenix

05-27-2004, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Ernie

but again you are still useing the dead to deal with your reality
no foundation bro

Dont everyone's great great grand ancestor's dead? hahahaha

Too bad everyone's reality of foundation has to base on the great great great dead grand ancestor.

Leonardo davinci's art collection is still there and how many can surpass him? hahahahahaha

Some art is time dependent some art is time independent.

who to say one can be better then Leonardo Da Vinci because he is dead and one is better then Eistein because he is dead?

Einstein is dead but the foundation of modern physics based greatly on his work.

I have to use Solid state physic theory everyday to build something. that is my foundation. those solid state physics theory from those dead. we live in a different world bro.

Ernie

05-27-2004, 05:08 PM

hendrik are a closet necrophiliac ?

you sure seem to have a strange love for dead things

as for keeping your reality in the past , go on russel crow , with your bad self ina beautiful mind :)

my momma always said don't make fun of crazy people son

so i will leave to your dirt and bones

p.s.

we came full circle wing chunis not art
wing chun is about skill
skill can be tested
art is subjective

theres your answer

Phenix

05-27-2004, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by Ernie

you sure seem to have a strange love for dead things

I am just a typical chinese who drink the water and remember where the source of the water from. That is the old teaching of the Chinese ancestors. No I never forget them, and always will feel gratitude for their contribution to me. without them I would not have what I have. I cant live without my root Chakra connected to the ancestors. hahahahaa

Is that has to do with When an art becomes a Just do it fighting?
May be may be not. Is a SLT a dead thing? hahahahahaah

Ernie

05-27-2004, 05:21 PM

I am just a typical chinese who drink the water and remember where the source of the water

i use a filter to get rid of all those old nasty particals :D

just a typical cuban, living in america , wearing clothes made in a sweat shop in central america or asia , driving a car made in japan , going to a gym run by a german guy , and then come home to talk wing chun with my jewish friend

and just for kicks have italian food and maybe a nice french wine

what's your point :D

[[[Is that has to do with When an art becomes a Just do it fighting?
Dont know. hahahahahaah]]]]]

that's your perception/ oppinion has nothing to do with measurable skill

again what's your point

PaulH

05-27-2004, 05:23 PM

Okay, you two birds. We all heard your looney tunes so many times now. Ha! Ha! Let have some sleep!

Regards,
PH

Ernie

05-27-2004, 05:25 PM

paul
i like being a spot light on hendrik when he gets shady :)

he probably gets a kick out of disecting every word

i'm off to the gym gents time for some reality;)

Phenix

05-27-2004, 05:34 PM

Paul,

is SLT a dead thing? is SLT an art ?

I left this for you when I am gone for good.
hahahaha

PaulH

05-27-2004, 05:40 PM

I'm sleeping! Please don't wake me up! Of course SLT is not dead as long as people still practice it! =)

Miles Teg

05-27-2004, 05:45 PM

One can only speculate how much skill the ancestors had. It does no good to dwell on this for very long. You cant talk about the olds doing this and doing that because there is hardly any solid facts that are recorded.
Regardless of how much skill they could have had, they are not here now to teach you.

Thats not disrespecting your ancestors (if your spiritually inclined that way). If they are somewhere up there, Im sure they would be more offended by people telling super man stories about them that arent true.

China used to be a fertile birth place for many styles of martial arts. Now I believe that the fertile ground is in the west.

Ultimatewingchun

05-27-2004, 06:28 PM

Hendrik:

Endless mind/word games meant to always confuse or expand issues rather than clarify them (and in this way one can always avoid having to face one's limitations/fears)...

Games always meant to hide from reaching unwanted conclusions - by always resorting to the "well that's your opinion and I have mine" circular and endless debating point arguments...

These kinds of games bore me no end - and I have no more time for them.

So it's adios to this thread.

-Victor

anerlich

05-27-2004, 07:30 PM

Buckel your sit belt.

Hendrik, your the one that needed that advice, not me.

So that your posts don't go even further out into the twilight zone, I also suggest the following:

Wear a helmet when riding a bicycle or motor cycle

Wear a hat in the sun.

Both of these should still fit over your tinfoil beanie.

I am just a typical chinese who drink the water and remember where the source of the water

From my concern for the well-being of the Chinese world wide, I fervently hope you are not typical.

Are you saying you have to be Chinese to understand WC? If so, you demonstrate that that it is not a sufficient condition. I'd also venture it isn't necessary.

yuanfen

05-27-2004, 07:31 PM

Comments in brackets:

On Miles:

One can only speculate how much skill the ancestors had.

((One does not have to speculate how good Newton was- if one understands his equations. One does not have to speculate how good Leung Jan or Ip man were if one understands the structural and functional and unification principles of wing chun ..IMO))

China used to be a fertile birth place for many styles of martial arts. Now I believe that the fertile ground is in the west.

((The situation is mixed and unclear yet. Many transmissions from China are incomplete IMO and the young Chinese are after
material goods often enough-understandable. But the current west has come up with mma- no art yet imo. And even in sports
including martial sports the western dominance is no longer as decisive.
Of course one has to define west/east etc))

On Victor-

hendrik has his own communication style- his language and spelling often obscures the dialectics. Though he is not now into fighting- he has had considerable experience. And his knowledge of Chinese and general Asian history including ma history is unmatched IMO among frequent posters in this forum.

On "sparring" other styles::

One has to define the rules of the game. The meaning of sparring varies widely-outside of boxing. Without rules- many other stylists do not know what wing chun is about and can mistake control for weakness if the wing chun person holds back.
Opinions of course..

anerlich

05-27-2004, 07:40 PM

including martial sports the western dominance is no longer as decisive.

That's true - Japanese fighters do very well in MMA and submission grappling. Sakuraba and Genki Sudo as two examples.

And his knowledge of Chinese and general Asian history including ma history is unmatched IMO among frequent posters in this forum.

Possibly. If he'd stick to that and stay away from twisted metaphysics, absurd stream-of-consciousness monologues and condescention, he might find more people willing to treat him seriously.

Ernie

05-27-2004, 07:54 PM

anerlich

Both of these should still fit over your tinfoil beanie

dude i hate you for being so funny i'm crying :D

hendrik
is SLT a dead thing

of course not , i'm honest i train and cultivate it and yes it grows deeper with time and dare i say it [ experience ]

but with out [ experiences ] it's just empty motions that have no relation to reality

Ultimatewingchun

05-27-2004, 08:21 PM

"Possibly. If he'd stick to that and stay away from twisted metaphysics, absurd stream-of-consciousness monologues and condescencion, he might find more people willing to treat him seriously."

Amen.

PaulH

05-27-2004, 11:39 PM

I think I will incur the wrath of Big Brother when I say:

Hendrik,
You're the top!
You're the Colosseum,
You're the top!
You're the Louvre Museum,
You're a melody
From a symphony by Strauss,
You're a Bendel bonnet,
A Shakespeart sonnet,
You're Mickey Mouse.

You're the Nile,
You're the Tower of Pisa,
You're the smile on the Mona Lisa...

Your words poetic
Are not pathetic
On the other hand, boy, you shine
And I can feel after every line
A thrill divine down my spine.

So keep on being you! Ha! Ha!

black and blue

05-28-2004, 01:11 AM

Can someone please put a ban on hugely long posts that have songs or poems altered to include the words "Wing Chun".... funny the first time, but now, months on.... it is just plain retarded.

Ernie - Enjoy your posts. Too many people on this forum hero worship the likes of Yip Man, never spar, never test themselves, think their art is the bee's knees though they never demonstrate it etc etc etc.

Good to see someone shooting down the dross.

yuanfen

05-28-2004, 06:36 AM

B & B in Budapest sez:
Ernie - Enjoy your posts. Too many people on this forum hero worship the likes of Yip Man, never spar, never test themselves, think their art is the bee's knees though they never demonstrate it etc etc etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Replies from a rudapest

Same old same old.

1. Nothing wrong with respecting Ip Man. While there are different flavors of wing chun- much is owed to him for bringing wing chun out of a different world to the light of day.
One has to develop one's own understanding of wing chun or any serious subject-but respecting a teacher and his/her teacher and so on is in my books not a bad idea....denotes a non egotistical appreciation of a gift.

2. Spar? Depends on what means. Can be fun.
Does not by itself teach wing chun.

3. Testing? many do and have. Just repeating test test test against resisting opponents against resisting opponents gets shrill and hollow on a net forum.

4. Demonstrate. In right time and place..many do. The forum is not the wing chun universe.

5. Wing chun way is not the only way to self defense but on the long run it is superb. When the forum sounds like the reality street fighting forum or the jkd forum- I for one wonder how many folks are really doing wing chun. With those two other forums- why does this one get so many posts?

Cheers from the wing chun way and hardly lost-

Joy Chaudhuri

black and blue

05-28-2004, 06:54 AM

:rolleyes:

Regarding points one to five:

1) I never said respect was a bad thing, I said "Hero worship". I like Ernie's post because he clearly doesnt' wet himself in excitement everytime someone mentions a master and the incredible feats they could accomplish.

2) Fun? Kinda I guess. Painful fun is perhaps more apt. Doesn't teach you Wing Chun, sure... just teaches you how to better use it (or use XingYi, or Karate, or whatever)

3) Wasn't aware I was repeating those words over and over. Many have tested? From people's own admission on this forum, that are quite a few that do not. Up to them I guess. But I'm not posting to them saying I liked what they had written. Maybe you test your art, Joy... maybe you don't. If you do, for one would love to see it. Maybe your new site can be used to illustrate it.

4) Time and place, hehehe... you sound like the HFY chaps (kidding). Sure some do - have seen it myself. It is not common though I believe. (and please don't mention those HK street fights.... girly slapping rubbish)

5) "I for one wonder how many folks are really doing wing chun"... so the inference is that, as you wonder, you believe from some posts that they do not do Wing Chun. Or are you saying what they do is not WC and that what you do is? Probably just me, but I'm not sure which of the two you are saying.

6) (Yes... this is my own point added) I reiterate that the song and poems etc are retarded. ;) :p

PaulH

05-28-2004, 07:16 AM

When you're black and blue, everything is retarded!

Cool, bro! My apology for having humour out of balance! Okay, no more songs at least when you're around! =)

black and blue

05-28-2004, 07:20 AM

Thank you kindly!

Duncan

Ps. Though I am Black and Blue, not everything is retarded. Nothing retarded about interesting posts... but come to think of it I swear I'll scream if I hear more reference to that Helsing movie... ;)

Ernie

05-28-2004, 07:57 AM

joy
[[but respecting a teacher and his/her teacher and so on is in my books not a bad idea....denotes a non egotistical appreciation of a gift]]]

so sayith the teacher ha ha ha
sorry joy couldn't help myself

black and blue

thanks for the thumbs up , just trying to be a counter balance on the b.s. meter

paul .
you can come out of the closet now it's o,k. we can still be friends :D

if you wish to sing outside hendriks wing feel free
you might get a date ha ha

PaulH

05-28-2004, 08:19 AM

Ha! Ha! Ernie... Is this what I get for balancing the nutty mood swing of opinions from you two? =)

Ernie

05-28-2004, 08:30 AM

you know me paul i don't have mood swings , never ever loose my temper , it's a big joke to me

i just like making people explain themselves with personal experience

can't stand when they recite some one elses life or accomplishments as if in some way they are there own or it validates there point

back to the if you can't do it today then shut upppppp ha ha ha

PaulH

05-28-2004, 08:41 AM

It's not a big joke, bro! I learn a lot from listening to you two on this thread! =)

Ernie

05-28-2004, 03:08 PM

joy
[[5. Wing chun way is not the only way to self defense but on the long run it is superb. When the forum sounds like the reality street fighting forum or the jkd forum- I for one wonder how many folks are really doing wing chun. With those two other forums- why does this one get so many posts?
]]

hey joy missed this part but it brings up a very valide point

there is one thing that street fighting and jkd and wing chun have in common

combat

or better yet street combat/ survival

so there should be very common denominaters when it comes down to application and pressure testing since the end game is the same

sure there will be differences , preferred tools, and engine

but if you look at it from the end purpose were are more alike then different

we train to be as effecient as possible against a unknown opponent or opponents

with that idea the training and pressure methods should have some common ground

what will cause major seperation issues is when one loses track of the end game and goal and gets to caught up in the minor details of the training system

then they will have tunnel vision

but if we were all standing infront of a agressive opponent trying to take out heads off , i'm sure we could have very constructive debates

but when things get into the angle of a tan or how to throw a jab

then the end game is lost

there are many ways to make a gun , you can fight for years over the feel of the trigger size of the bullet shape of the handle

but if we look at it's application , it cuts the crap

:D

yuanfen

05-28-2004, 03:10 PM

Ernie- sez-
so sayith the teacher ha ha ha
sorry joy couldn't help myself Sorry
------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry Ernie- didnt get your point. Dont have to be sorry for being obscure.

In civil forum discussions- any one can make a point.
The merits of points stand on their own.

Ernie

05-28-2004, 03:13 PM

you said we should respect out teachers

you happen to be one :)

and for the record glad to have you back missed your remarks

Ultimatewingchun

05-28-2004, 04:18 PM

Joy wrote:

"Spar? Depends on what means. Can be fun.
Does not by itself teach wing chun."

There was a president not long ago who said that it all "depends on what is...is"

Remember that one?

No...sparring "by itself" does not teach wing chun.

But sparring WHILE USING wing chun does help teach people how to fight...and how to use wing chun in a "fight" atmosphere.

And that's a good thing!

Phenix

05-28-2004, 04:30 PM

QUOTE]Originally posted by PaulH
I think I will incur the wrath of Big Brother when I say:

Hendrik,
You're the top!
You're the Colosseum,
You're the top!
You're the Louvre Museum,
You're a melody
From a symphony by Strauss,
You're a Bendel bonnet,
A Shakespeart sonnet,
You're Mickey Mouse.

You're the Nile,
You're the Tower of Pisa,
You're the smile on the Mona Lisa...

Your words poetic
Are not pathetic
On the other hand, boy, you shine
And I can feel after every line
A thrill divine down my spine.

So keep on being you! Ha! Ha! [/QUOTE]

Hi Pual,

You know, I like technology. And be it WCK technology or
Chip design Technology. I see it All are technology.

IMHO,
I have learn there are generally 3 types of people in my Chip Design Field.

1, there are the technician who is great in lab, and they are the fastest to check and probing new silicon chips. Just do it type.

2, there are the college grad type who got thier PHd but dont even know how to operate a Voltage meter. But will derive any equations the fastest then anyone in the company. Those are the theoritical type.

3, there are the Guru type who has mastering the theory can play with it and be able to work in lab elegantly. Those are the inventor of new chips systems.

So,

the type 1 always complain about the type 2 is full of it --- cant even operate a meter to measure anything.

The type 2 always look down on the type 1 for they dont know a thing when the new invention comes out. Because the just do it type always has to learn from the Application engineer when new design comes out which is not the same with the one they can just do it.

Now, the type 3, is the one will visit the lab only at mid night with a cup of hot coffee and observe and play with new invention.
So, sometimes, the technician will argue with the type 3 that, " hey you have never do that. you dont know". the type 3 just pull out the old theorem and play with it and think and tell the technician that " if you do this you will get this. so dont do this, or you will get loading effect in your measurement even I have never done this but I know this can be predict by the good old Ohms law, this is a no no. Cant be done" and walk away quitely.

So, every type contribute to the development. Nothing Good or bad, everyone has a role to play.

Some technician later learn that they have to go to school and master the theorem.... well, I got my electronics technician degree when I was 16. so, I go to school because I happen to admire a great guru later I have chanced to work with. Some technician never change. Some theoritical PHD change to learn about lab instrument, and some never change and still complaining.

I hope. when it comes to SLT all WCner deal with it as type 3. and all WCner is a type 3.

Not type 1, thinking they know it all but when the new design comes out, they sit there and just imitate what application engineer do. Not type 2, where they always look down on the dirty lab work but have no clue what is a meter for.

Technology is technology. nothing about ego or know it all or I am number one can beat all. Technology always has to rely on past expereince, past theories, present hard work, and creativity ... there is no always number one in the Technology field. the high density disk was the best just 5 years ago and now it is obsolete. But, hey the high density disk technology still is a great foundation for data storage field.

Sure I am nuts for lots of people. If my technician dont want to do the dirty lab job in the week end, I do it myself. If my junior engineer look down on this old fool. I do the calculation myself.
see, human has to be self sufficient. but never the I am number one because face it, in Silicon Valley there is too much smart cookies who's brain is faster then me to solve problem then I can remember my own name.

hope that everyone is type 3. That way, world has more fun. being at type 1 complaining at type 2 or vice versal is just a part of life though.

Just my Nutty thought. Dont take me serious. happy holiday and drive safe.

Ernie

05-28-2004, 04:42 PM

i like type 4
the janitor in good will hunting

take the hot cup of coffee throw in the face of type1,2,and 3 kick them in the balls and say see dumb ass it doesn't need to be so complicated now get off your high horse, take off your geek glasses ,get out in the real world and mop the floor while your at it
:)

Phenix

05-28-2004, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Miles Teg

China used to be a fertile birth place for many styles of martial arts. Now I believe that the fertile ground is in the west.

Sure, everywhere has an equal position.

but new technology needs lots and lots solid fundamental theories and experience adding creativity to develop.

No one will be able to get rid of Ohm's law to develop DSP.
The question always true is Does one understand Ohm's Law before trying to develop a new chip? or just plain personal MAcho impulse which cost the whole company to suffer.

A simple question, how do one train a person who is weaker and slower physically then one to be better then oneself? what is the program? what is the training? what is the ultimate? what is the foundation? Is it possible?

Ernie

05-28-2004, 04:59 PM

A simple question, how do one train a person who is weaker and slower physically then one to be better then oneself? what is the program? what is the training? what is the ultimate? what is the foundation? Is it possible?

simple improve there weakness and speed

what's the big deal athletes do it all the time over and over again

and get better faster stronger each year

now if your question is how do you get a lazy person stronger or faster that's different

PaulH

05-29-2004, 09:00 AM

Hendrik,

I see Ernie's WC training approaches and yours both workable howbeit from a very different philosophical bent as you pointed out in your latest post. I know Ernie for many years, and he is not macho at all but an honest, sincere, and likable street rat trying to improve the life qualities of those he care for - his other wc mice! Though I told him many times to take it easy as not all men are mice, but he just keep on doing his rat things when he smells something cheesy in the neighborhood. Well, perhaps one day a WC fairy will come along and transform him into something in a Cinderela world.

What I really like about U2 is that you troublemakers got hearts! This is what I mean in my other post. As long as people think, work, discuss and share their WC ideas and ideology with a new and improved mutual respect and goodwill hunting, WC will move on to a new brave world. I know my WC is somewhat confused because of what you guys did - a little of Hendrik's dream coupled with Ernie's reality in a no mixed WC purity landscape! Phew! I'm late for class! Got to run!

Regards,
PH

Ernie

05-29-2004, 09:13 AM

r.a.t.

random attack tactics

screw a glass slipper rather tap a glass jaw

secrest out :)

yuanfen

05-29-2004, 11:42 AM

Hi Paul- Happy Memorial day to you too. While there have been great divisions and rightly so over many policy issues...the WW2
part of the roots of memorial day- memorializea time when the distinctions between good and evil were relatively more clear cut.
Though no one was a perfect angel.

Between Ernie's posts and Hendrik's there is a lot of the dialogue of the deaf. I listen but dont always agree with either one on many things. I think both are honest people...

Ernie's posts are not my cup of tea- when it is almost jkd-ish...
attributes etc. Just repeating- "footwork" gets shrill at times... because good footwork is part of wing chun...though I understand his intent.

And re Hendrik--- I have not seen Helsing and dont intend to and I use a pillow for other purposes besides wing chun. And I dont need a pillow for developing the right standing....though I understand his intent.
Cheers
joy

Phenix

05-29-2004, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

What I really like about U2 is that you troublemakers got hearts! This is what I mean in my other post. As long as people think, work, discuss and share their WC ideas and ideology with a new and improved mutual respect and goodwill hunting, WC will move on to a new brave world. I know my WC is somewhat confused because of what you guys did - a little of Hendrik's dream coupled with Ernie's reality in a no mixed WC purity landscape! Phew! I'm late for class! Got to run!

Regards,
PH

Hey Pual,

By U2,
You mean me and that Ernie great guy (he fit the profile to be some CEO of some start-up company. that type 4 who always want to be in the high horse but never admit :D) ? hahahaha.
Nothing is fun if nothing got strill up right? hahahha.

Try this to see how different people do different things :D
http://www.pers.com/blobbieworld/personalitychart/personalitychart.html

BTW. I dont dream " I just repeat what the Ancestors told me. hehehhee"

You know, Confusious said " repeat the old will know the new. that way one can be qualify to be a sifu " ( if you dont like this qoute, remember that is Confusius' word not mine. :D Dont shoot the messenger)

Phenix

05-29-2004, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen

And re Hendrik--- I have not seen Helsing and dont intend to and I use a pillow for other purposes besides wing chun. And I dont need a pillow for developing the right standing....though I understand his intent.
Cheers
joy

Hey Joy!

Ok. let's analize Van Helsing my hero with the Chakra system.

1, his root chakra is very strong. Thus, he never have fear of Survival. and strong physically. so he can do that just do it fighting! :D

2, his second chakra is strong and full of prana! Thus, he can find fun in all situation when the Ying and Yang are composing symphony. and his breathing is deep.

3, his solar chakra is in a great shape. Thus, he has no fear of uncertainty and not macho ego. He is firm with his identity and his capability. He cant fight Count Dracula flying because he has no Wing. But he can fight Count Dracular with the mid lower zone. He dont have to imitate or learn how to fly to beat count dracula.

4, his heart chakra is open. Thus, he can accept Frienkenstien as a friend. look at the priest invention with openess.

5, his throat chakra is balance. Thus, he dare to speak against the Vantican to spare the human frienkenstien's life.

6, his third eyes chakra is clear. Thus, there is no delusion of misconception or prejudice toward Count Dracula, dracula's capability, and any situation Van has to face. thus his heart beat never go irregular even the present of Count Dracula.

7, his crown chakra is open. Thus, he can embrace the ancient scriptures and modern invented weapon. no problem to turn into a Ware wolf and no problem become a human. very flexflow. :D

what a wonderfull human in this state. what a great combination of well manage mind/breathing/body You think he did WCK? ;)
BTW, adding the fast motor to his BAt Jaam Do makes it real slick! --when ancient meet the high tech the paradigm shift.

Great Chakra test ! :D

http://www.pers.com/blobbieworld/personalitychart/
----------------------------

PS:

As for the pillow dummy, Since WCK has woodern dummy one is beating at. why not a pillow dummy for sensing and understand the resultant force?

--------------------

Well, I think

"The simple questions,
how do one train a person who is weaker and slower physically then one to be better then oneself? what is the program? what is the training? what is the ultimate? what is the foundation? Is it possible?"

is a great constructive way of let everyone express what one believe in. Be it WCK is an art or WCK is a just do it.

HOw to train a person who is weaker.......

what do you think? since you have teach for decades?

PaulH

05-29-2004, 01:58 PM

"As for the pillow dummy, Since WCK has woodern dummy one is beating at. why not a pillow dummy for sensing and understand the resultant force? - Hendrik"

This is high level WC stuffs where WC begins to move from its main emphasis on soft hands supported by firm body engine to "your body is another soft hand". At this stage things get real slippery as the more force you give to the Tai Chi- like WCner's body he can just put it right back into your body. It becomes more of a balance skill contest. I think people need to focus more on the first and get it down really good before moving on to a Tai Chi - like pasture.

"how do one train a person who is weaker and slower physically then one to be better then oneself? what is the program? what is the training? what is the ultimate? what is the foundation? Is it possible?"

I think one way would be to teach him the two guns fighting method of WC. Different from most martial arts, WC system is faster by having more weapons to attack in one action. They need two actions to attack but we just one and continuously one after another- very aggressive and hostile way in sharp contrast to the more gentler art like Tai Chi or Aikido.

Regards,
PH

yuanfen

05-29-2004, 03:12 PM

Hendrik-

I have a decent understanding of the chakra system and its many uses. You are correct about it's relevance for a deeper understanding of an alive wing chun structure.
The spine in sukhasana is aligned very much like a good slt alignment.

But I have not seen Van helsing, Instead I saw Troy--so so character development and some creative "history" but the martial choreography was superbly done.

But you are going past people in dealing with various links because the tacit knowledge of folks diverge a lot.

And, a bio mechanics paradigm or quasi bio mechanics approach is both quite common, helpful to some extent but imo incomplete. So I basically gave up trying to deal with many non mechanistic aspects of wing chun on the net. In person its a different matter. To communicate one first has to get someone's attention. On the net and in forums that is not easy to do.

On the "weak"etc in wing chun Ernie said:
"simple improve there weakness and speed

what's the big deal athletes do it all the time over and over again ."

Ships passing at sea. You can improve on weakness and speed to some extent- but in no way can a small woman match the strength or speed of many men. Skill devlopment is the key. That is where- for development--- the right angles for tan bong and fokk are important in the slt- so is developemnt of all kinds of different timing (including chi sao)- levels the playing field- and the choice of motions can vary.
Development and using the results of development are not the same thing. So in application tan sao-s adjust to the needs.
A fairly competent female student of mine was attacked a few weeks ago. If she depended on standard athleticism she would have lost. But she overcame her adversary. After some reflection she has decided to testify against her attacker in open court. One has to adapt good wing chun for one's own strengths and weaknesses- not an argument against becoming stronger ertc.

On the pillow-one can still develop a bad structure witha pillow.
No substitute for a good teacher's correction. The old adage- a lawyer representing himself hasa fool for a client.

joy

BTW(in fun) I came out asa yellow bloopie on that personality test and it came out about right. Funning--- in the chinese zodiac (I am not a true believer) but interestingly I ama rooster, wife was a buffalo
(compatible)...sons- a snake and a rat... compatible with us but not with each other. It Turns out about right!.
Sorry no proofing.

Phenix

05-30-2004, 02:26 PM

This is high level WC stuffs where WC begins to move from its main emphasis on soft hands supported by firm body engine to "your body is another soft hand". -----P

Nope. it is not a high level stuffs. It is not about emphasis on soft hands by firm body engine.

It is about the electronics control loop and it's related mechanism of a ALL WHEEL DRIVE --- Aoutomatic 4 wheel drive Porchse SUV.

At this stage things get real slippery as the more force you give to the Tai Chi- like WCner's body he can just put it right back into your body. It becomes more of a balance skill contest. I think people need to focus more on the first and get it down really good before moving on to a Tai Chi - like pasture. ------

Your stage and what i am desribed are a different thing. And it is not a balanceing Skill. IT is about a ALL WHEEL DRIVE.

WCK technology is not Tai Chi.

And it is not Tai Chi like. Even Tai Ji itself has different Characteristics. VArious from Yang and Chen....
Yang's long push jing is different with Chen's Concoon real silk with Wu.... So which Tai Ji?

WCK has its characteristics in it Jing, Sher, FA or Power (generation/issuing) types, Momentum/potential (static and dynamic) type, and Methodology of training and application. Even Different lineage of WCK has different Jing/Sher/Fa for thier Characteristics after years of evolution. So, it cannot be generalized. TaiChi- alike.

One has to design and manufacture an automatic electronics control 4 wheel drive from the first day. Cant design and manufacture a 2 wheel drive and later add some gimmic to make it a real 4 wheel drive.

Phenix

05-30-2004, 02:46 PM

Joy,

On the pillow-one can still develop a bad structure witha pillow.
No substitute for a good teacher's correction. ---J

Agree. No matter how great the book. A prof is always needed!

You can improve on weakness and speed to some extent- but in no way can a small woman match the strength or speed of many men. Skill devlopment is the key.----- J

Yup.

Every Good Chinese MA has three key components --- 1, Power (generation/issuing) , 2, momentum/potential (static/dynamic) , 3, methodology or training and application ---- to develop Fighting skill.
From these 3 components, there lay the characteristics of the style of the art.

Take an example about power generation:

Say a simple middle punch.

1, one can punch a middle punch start with the power from Dan Tien and spiral up and passing the pinky side of the punch and..... (similar to Mas Oyama's. instruction)
2, another can punch a middle puch start from the top of the shoulder and upper back (similar to some doing it in Tournament where Oyama get irritated at)
3, Another can punch a middle punch start with the reel silk from the opposite leg of the arm (similar to the Chen TaiJi)
4, another can punch a middle punch start with elbow......
5, Another Can use the VWHW to propel the punch .....
6,......

Just a simple middle punch but lots of lots of ways and get very different results.... once one becomes used to a way one develop the habit ...

For a beginer, lots of things needs to be clear up. otherwise, as it said in the old Chinese Martial art proverb ---- easy to teach a young beginer right and it is very difficult to make correction when the bad habit is rooted for the senior.

Ernie

05-31-2004, 05:06 PM

wow
gone for a few days and the old wolves start attacking the corpse

is that beating the dead horse ha ha

joy
call it what you want jdk ish or just how the human body works

still it makes way more sense the jing and chakra's that every body talks about but no one can produce against a resisiting opponent

until then it's just another johnny quest fable

so trust me that type of rambling doesn't fly these days
when some one is pounding your head in

until i see it happening and working for people and they can drop me with it while i resist then we shall see and if any of your guys are out my way and they can pull it off i'm open minded enough to give them a shot no problem at all

but as i said until then i'll stick with what i know works body mechnanics and attributes

some goes out to hendrik any time you want to catch a dinner and zap me with the wonders of the '' slt '' i'll be a willing subject

no dis resoect intended just putting things on a even playing field

and as for a small woman not being able to take her atttribute development to a level to deal with a large athletic man

your right

most wing chun men won't be able to deal with a athletic person with fighting skill

don't see what the big deal is just reality

but if you never test and all you do is play in the bubble anything will work so god bless

but i just had a great little vacation and online debates seem very hollow at this time

so if you got some thing solid and real that can be checked out hit me up no problem until them
i'll leave you in the land of oz

Ultimatewingchun

05-31-2004, 05:51 PM

Ernie wrote:

"If you never test and all you do is play in the bubble anything will work...but if you got something solid and real that can be checked out hit me up."

If that's what you're looking for Ernie - I think you better check out some other thread.

yuanfen

05-31-2004, 06:06 PM

Ernie sez:

joy
call it what you want jdk ish or just how the human body works
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's ok Ernie-there are widely different perspectives in wing chun.

joy

Ernie

05-31-2004, 06:43 PM

It's ok Ernie-there are widely different perspectives in wing chun.

joy

oh yea

that's for sure :p

victor

i gave up on that aloooooooooong time ago ha ha ha but some times it's good to see how not to be ;)

Phenix

05-31-2004, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by Ernie

some goes out to hendrik any time you want to catch a dinner and zap me with the wonders of the '' slt '' i'll be a willing subject

Pual,

I thought every WCner does SLT and believe in SLT? No?
Do you people still do SLT ? :D

Speaking about beating the dead horse ha ha hahahahaha.

Phenix

05-31-2004, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by Ernie

most wing chun men won't be able to deal with a athletic person with fighting skill

don't see what the big deal is just reality

most old age atheletic person with fighting skill wont be able to deal with a YOUNG athelectic person with fighting skill who is in his prime. :D

That is just realtiy. :D

So, how is that " just do it fighting" contribute if one doesnt have a YOUNG PRIME BODY? :D

Miles Teg

05-31-2004, 08:00 PM

I think it is easy to see both sides of what people are saying.
Except maybe Hendrik. (Dude, I can tell you are very knowlegable and intellectual but you got make your posts a little more straight foward for the majority of dummies, like me, to understand)

It just all boils down to what you want out of the art.
Some want to use it as a tool, along with anything else that they pick up that they think is lacking to make themselves the best fighters that they can be.

Others just enjoy bathing in the depth of wing chun and see fighting or self defence as a bonus bi-product of practising what they enjoy.

I dont see whats wrong with either approach!

Phenix

05-31-2004, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by Miles Teg

Except maybe Hendrik. (Dude, I can tell you are very knowlegable and intellectual but you got make your posts a little more straight foward for the majority of dummies, like me, to understand)

Life is complicated. WCK technology is complex.
and it has nothing to do with either who is intellectual or dump. IMHO.

Ernie

05-31-2004, 08:58 PM

Except maybe Hendrik. (Dude, I can tell you are very knowlegable and intellectual but you got make your posts a little more straight foward for the majority of dummies, like me, to understand)

now you understand why i play the anti hendrik

to bring out some of the information , to cause clairity , if that's possible

:)

hendrik

any old person athletic or not that still fights is an idiot and should seek medical attention

but at least an old athletic person shows a respect for there body and well being

vs. people that just run there mouth and have oppinions they can't support only talk about

as for slt we do do it of course

but we care about fighting and applying not prtending and imagining
that's all

no big deal people love to pretend like joy said many interpetiations out there ;)

Phenix

05-31-2004, 10:43 PM

now you understand why i play the anti hendrik

to bring out some of the information , to cause clairity , if that's possible :) ----E

I play anti Blue sky because I insist the sky has to be red as I would like it to be. hahahaha :D

any old person athletic or not that still fights is an idiot and should seek medical attention ---- E

Wow, old person are disposible.

but at least an old athletic person shows a respect for there body and well being --- E

How will a old atheletic person shows respect for their body and well being? Such as preventing hypetention? heart attack? .depression..etc

I heard the WCK ancestors design a set named SLT which do deep breathing, letting go thoughts, and holistics physical movements. Seems that even Scientist today agree those are great thing to keep the body out of Hypetention and old age depression.

vs. people that just run there mouth and have oppinions they can't support only talk about ---- E

Certainly, you mean that guy who is suggesting using Kneeing to counter the BJJ or Grapper? IT will be great if he test it with the Gracie's before suggesting so it doesnt mislead others.

as for slt we do do it of course
but we care about fighting and applying not prtending and imagining
that's all ----- E

I had watched the video of the SLT king, TST, the student of GM YM, is using strong imagining called lap niem to prove the SLT power. An old guy, but boy, can one take his punch? to see is to believe. Check out GM YM's SLT King, TST's power.

And it sure will be strange for those who belive in Fighting only doing SLT. Dont they believe that SLT is a wasting of time and they jump right into fighting instead of what the ancestors' teaching, SLT,.... Dummy,,. Chi Sau... Sparing.... fighting? why doing it? May be they are not sure about themself is right? So incase they are wrong. They do SLT to be safe. :D

no big deal people love to pretend like joy said many interpetiations out there ;) ---- E

I agree!
No big deal people love to think they know more then thier ancestors and what the ancestor wrote are junk when they are young and sportist. Well, they change when they are old, history always repeat. hahahaha. Teenager always think differently compare to the people in their 50's. just human. :D

Ernie

06-01-2004, 07:26 AM

Wow, old person are disposible

no not at all , they should just know better , fighting is avoidable
unless it's just random violent attack

and more then likely if it's a random attack you won't see it and go down anyway no matter who you are

wisdom comes with age the ability to not get caught up in petty things , arguments that build up into fist fights

unless the old person is just stubborn , and still acts like a spoiled child
:D

hendrik
[[How will a old atheletic person shows respect for their body and well being? Such as preventing hypetention? heart attack? .depression..etc]]]

if that's what you consider in shape
i train[not wing chun ] with 50 plus year olds that can run , mountain climb ,snow board , white water raft , some compete in athletic events , they are in incredible shape , there are a few i still can't keep up with
so when i hear that played out excuse that you lose it when you get old i just laugh , my first trainer was a 63 year old vegan witha six pack , sure he wasn't able to do what he could at 30 but he still kicked all of our butts and we were in our 20's

i just think people give up and get lazy , it's different if you have an illness
yet my friend mom has a medical condition were she shakes and her head kind of twiches , but she is in the gym every day and she recently beat me in a 3 mile run , she also has a very lean cut body and she just had her 60th birthday

these people inspire

then you can look at the other side were you got 20,30,40 year olds in wing chun that consider themselves figters or training in a fighting art
that would get winded sprinting up the block

but the got a great slt ha ha

hendrik
[[[Certainly, you mean that guy who is suggesting using Kneeing to counter the BJJ or Grapper? IT will be great if he test it with the Gracie's before suggesting so it doesnt mislead others.]]]

who's fighting gracie are you ?
why not test you new slippers on a court with jordon
makes the same sense
all you can do is improve yourself your speed timing balance power ,sensitivity and adaptability
gain experience by working of resisiting opponents
if you use a knee the so be it if it works for you and you have the skill and timing to pull it off
if you use a punch then great if it works for you
if you can sit there in your slt and imagine him to death then great send me the tape it would be fun to watch

:D

hedrik

May be they are not sure about themself is right? So incase they are wrong. They do SLT to be safe.

your own words and that says it all

i'm still on vacation so i'll leave you to your world alice in wonderland
:D

time for a nice run on the beach