US Draft to start in Spring 2005??

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Guys.

Found this on another Board and would like to hear your guys opinion if this is real or not:

http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=5834001&content_dir=ua_congressorg

Sounds like Draft dodging will also be tougher:
College and Canada will not be options.
Plus, women are also included.

Link in the article to the don't work, use the one below:
http://www.hslda.org/Legislation/National/2003/S89/default.asp

[yenhoi]

LOL.

The earliest the draft could possibly happen politically would be half way through bush's next term.

Get real.

Canada has said they would be home to draft dodgers just like last time. What they wont do is let deserters (AWOL) stay there.

Why are you so worried. Most Nations on earth have mandatory military service. This is not unusual for anywhere else on earth.

:confused:

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

I am not worried, just curious.

FYI, already did the mandatory military service in my home-country.
Personally, I think doing a stint of mandatory military service is a good thing(2 yrs is a bit long), helps getting rid of some stupid ideas and behaviours that many young people got.

[Shaolinlueb]

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooo


that is all.

[joedoe]

I am safe since my health is so poor they would never take me :D



Oh, and I am not a US citizen :D :D :D

[Phrost]

Put on your tinfoil hats everyone, THEY are coming for YOU!

Dubious. Even so, I was a SGT when I got out, and did my full 8 years (7 and change active, the rest in Ready Reserve).

So too bad for joo!

[Starchaser107]

no one should be forced to fight for something they don't believe in.
thats just my opinion.

[Vash]

If it does happen, either sooner or later, I certainly hope there is a little box for "conscientious objector." I REFUSE to fight for this "War on Terrorism," or anything else that this administration touts as necessary for the common good, or whatever their tagline is these days.

Call me a coward, unAmerican, whathaveyou. This is a cause and a leader which I cannot support.

[kungfu cowboy]

First, the draft never really goes away, they only reveal it in times of "need".

Second, just because the universe formed, and you happen to be a product of evolution that has consciousness and resides in a particular part of the world with "society" and "politics", does not give someone the right to make someone go and "kill or be killed".

Lastly, once you run out of volunteers: "You lose: Game over, not (see above).

[SanSoo Student]

I wonder how the surf would be down in Baja....:D

We can hold an anti-draft party there.

[Phrost]

Anyone else find the irony in a bunch of martial artists being against war?

Martial: Of or relating to war.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Vash
I certainly hope there is a little box for "conscientious objector."

From what I read in the Bills it will be there, but mostly for religious reasons.

Check the 2nd link I provided the Bills can be found there.

This does NOT excempt you from doing your time, you might get either a civilian assignement(goverment job, postal worker, etc) or be assigned to a NON-COMBATANT role in the military which might be at the front(Potato peeling, Latrine cleaning, etc) .

In short if the goverment wants you for 2 years you have to give them 2 years, holding a rifle or not.

Check the link below for more Info:
http://www.sss.gov/FSconsobj.htm

[Christopher M]

HR 163 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:h.r.00163:) and S 89 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:SN00089:@@@L&summ2=m&) were introduced by Democrats a year and a half ago.

It's utterly amazing to me how explicitly people are willing to lie for your votes and minds, not to mention how readily people eat it all up.

[kungfu cowboy]

I think a lot of people must have been sheep in a past life.:p

[Christopher M]

On the other hand, they're not being malevolent: socialists formally advocate revolutionary and infiltrationist strategies for siezing power and are repulsed at the notion of each individual informing themselves rationally and making their own choice - a model they criticize as 'individualistic' and 'alienating man from his relation to society.' So we shouldn't be surprised when they do exactly what they say they'll do.

[Gangsterfist]

I do not wish to kill anyone, ever in my entire life.

I would not go to war. If there was some way to go over there and peacefully resolve any kind of issue I could see myself going over there.

Perhaps, if we just did not need oil, and if oil companies did not have such a big play on how the world turns.

The ironic thing is that our interests are being kept safe by corporations privatized military over seas. While our american soldiers who have volunteered to defend this country and its people are being sent over seas to fight a war that is not even worth fighting.

There is no link to Iraq or its people from the recent terrorist attacks.

I hope this all ends soon and everyone makes it home safe.


The more I read about politics the more I hate them (politics that is). I keep hearing people talking about doing whats good for USA, and I can't find anything good about it. Hell, our gas prices sure have not dropped.

Lets say there was a draft, and I somehow got drafted, I would not fight. Not this war.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Looks like if they re-instated the draft right new, there would be a large number of draft dodgers skipping for other countries. :D

Problem with the draft is that reasons like " I don't agree with the War", political affiliation and similar don't count.

Many British WW I CO ended up driving trucks under enemy fire, many other CO's in a variety of countries(US included) ended up in Jail, etc.

I thought about applying for CO status back when I was 18 and was called up for the national service, checked the requirements and realised that it is unlikely to be approved. Did my time in uniform and slurping coffee with blue powder residue during the basics(Gov. sez it does not add things to the food :rolleyes: ).

FWIW, in order to become CO you don't have to be a pacifist or anti-violence guy, you have to proof that you disagree with ANY armed conflict/armed military duty.

So far no statistics on how many US soldiers applied for CO status for this war.



Conscientious Objection

A conscientious objector (CO) is a person who believes that it is wrong to kill another human being in war. The military defines conscientious objection as a "firm, fixed and sincere objection to war in any form or the bearing of arms" because of deeply-held moral, ethical, or religious beliefs.


http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=17584

http://girights.objector.org/gettingout/co.html

[kungfu cowboy]

Although rude, I guess it's ok to ask nicely for volunteers, but if the answer is no, then that will be accepted without question or consequence.


And for people who do serve: They should be set for life when/if they return

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
Although rude, I guess it's ok to ask[I/] for [I]volunteers[I/], but if the answer is [I]no, then that should be accepted without question or consequences.

And for people who do serve: They should be set for life when/if they return.

National Service/Draft does not ask you are ORDERED to report for Duty/Service, when you report(medical checkup usually) than you can request to be listed as a CO.

In my Homecountries constitution it is written that the national service needs to be done by every male citizen(unless excempted on medical grounds)/female citizen can apply for voluntary service. :D
We only do 6mnths and a 1week refresher course every 2 years(8 times), or a stint of 8mnths for non-combat personnel.

Rules/Procedures to be listed as a CO seem to be pretty much the same in my homecountry as I see for the US.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Perhaps, if we just did not need oil... There is no link to Iraq or its people from the recent terrorist attacks.

What do either of these things have to do with the war? :confused:

[kungfu cowboy]

No ifs, ands, or buts, absolutely nobody has the right to ask anybody to do anything that they do not wish to do, most especially to kill or risk being injured or killed, for any motivation, just because there are a few like-minded individuals who think that it should be so, and are a-hole enough to try to force them to do it with threat of violence or incarceration. It's kinda dimwitted.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
No ifs, ands, or buts, absolutely nobody has the right to ask anybody to do anything that they do not wish to do, most especially to kill or risk being injured or killed, for any motivation, just because there are a few like-minded individuals who think that it should be so, and are a-hole enough to try to force them to do it with threat of violence or incarceration. It's kinda dimwitted.

If that were the case we would have a LOT less armed conflicts around the globe and in History.

That is one of the reason why I support the coalition & UN troops not because I think they are doing the right thing or because I approve of the War, but because they were ORDERED to go there and fight a war. Yes, I know that the US military forces are volunteers(for singing up after that .....).

Problem is that a Soldier can't choose to fight War A & D and not War B and/or C, and you're classed a Soldier the minute you receive your letter to report for duty.
One reason why the MP's come to collect you and NOT regular police in case you don't show up.

If my Country gets attacked(which it won't) most male citizens between 18 & 46 will get a piece of paper saying report to duty here and that time(we don't have a large army/airforce/navy) and we will be ready to fight within a very short time as we have already been trained.
Active service men of course can volunteer/be assigned to become part of the U.N. troops.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Funny Story.

A friend of mine went back after leave to his army post, problem was that he got badly sun-burned while on vacation and was thus taken of active duty.
Plus, he also got charged with damaging "Goverment Property"(himself) and was placed in confinment and the time in confinment was added to his service term.
:D

Gotta love the goverment and how they treat their "property".

[DragonzRage]

I agree that the Bush administration has made a mess of things in Iraq, and I agree that we should not have gone to Iraq in the first place. That being said, it was the American system that produced a$$holes like Rumsfeld and Cheney. It was we as a nation that voted the Bush administration in. In my opinion, we as a nation have the responsibility to make things right in Iraq. We owe it to our soldiers who've died over there to start doing things right and to not cut and run until we've made things better for the Iraqi people and improved America's national security. If we leave Iraq now, we leave the situation for the Iraqi people no better (and possibly worse) than before we came, and we leave having further endangered American security rather than improved it.

The way for us to start down the right path is a change in leadership. If there had to be a draft, I WOULD go. But as a draftee I would only agree to go to Iraq under the stipulation that the leadership responsible for the fiasco in Iraq is removed from office, and we start seeing better leadership and planning implemented in Iraq. But the neo-conservatives have got to go. Nothing positive will happen while they are still running the show.

There are some things worth fighting for. I do believe in fighting terrorists. I just don't believe that the Bush administration has gone about it the right way. We should have concentrated all our resources on hunting down bin Laden and shutting down al Qaeda rather than diverting such massive effort to Iraq. If my country needed me, I would gladly volunteer to squeeze bin Laden and his 'soldiers of Allah' out of their fukkin caves. And I definitely wouldn't mind ridding the world of any cruel fanatic *******s who would carve the head off of a live screaming prisoner while yelling 'God is great!'. But as for Iraq, I would only go after I see our leaders held accountable for their mistakes and better policies taking effect.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I have a question. If we are giving control of Iraq to the Iraqis this summer, then what would we Draft for? Also, aren't drafts only needed durring times of major war? Technically we're not at war, so is Jeb just planning ahead for future exploits? Either I smell horse sh!t or I smell horse sh!t.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Also, we need a political forum or decide on a better place to put it...(NOT THE ORA! Hip Hop has already called "Shotgun!")

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
what would we Draft for? ...so is Jeb just planning ahead for future exploits?

Did you see my original reply? :confused:

[kungfu cowboy]

Of course, I do think that an individual warrants the treatment that they give to others (barring extreme mental disorders), and if you disrespect or injure another individual by the use of violence or intimidation you should be exterminated. But nicely!

I can't wait until we start removing genetic code for unseemly behaviors!:p

[Toby]

Originally posted by DragonzRage
I agree that the Bush administration has made a mess of things in Iraq, and I agree that we should not have gone to Iraq in the first place. That being said, it was the American system that produced a$$holes like Rumsfeld and Cheney. It was we as a nation that voted the Bush administration in. In my opinion, we as a nation have the responsibility to make things right in Iraq. We owe it to our soldiers who've died over there to start doing things right and to not cut and run until we've made things better for the Iraqi people and improved America's national security. If we leave Iraq now, we leave the situation for the Iraqi people no better (and possibly worse) than before we came, and we leave having further endangered American security rather than improved it.

I'd be scared to think how long it would take to "make things right". I don't think that's a prospect that can be achieved within the short term. 5 years? 10 years? Even that is optimistic IMHO. Sad situation. I will be interested to see how the world reacts politically with the upcoming U.S. elections and elections in my country (Oz). Our opposition leader has already put his neck on the line with promises to pull out of Iraq by the end of the year (IIRC) if elected. That will no doubt be the major election issue for us.


Originally posted by DragonzRage
We should have concentrated all our resources on hunting down bin Laden and shutting down al Qaeda rather than diverting such massive effort to Iraq.bin Laden? Who's that? :D

[CaptinPickAxe]

actually, no. I replyed to the heading. Seeing how the endless debate that are political threads have grown motonous to me. So I add my two cents and usually be about my marry way.

G'day, chap.

[Christopher M]

It's confusing to me that someone would be interested in commenting about an issue but not in learning about it. Perhaps that's how all this misinformation gets so efficiently propagated.

[CaptinPickAxe]

c'mon now...
You gotta give me the benifit of the doubt here. I'm very politically active and have already heard of this. Lets save the arguement for another day.

again,
G'day, chap



(sorry, I'm a sucker for the last word:D )

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
I'm very politically active and have already heard of this.

But the "this" is a plain-faced lie. It's all the more troubling that you'd propagate a lie if you are politically active and already aware of the issue.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I'm not exactly what your calling a plain faced lie. Me or this piece of info. I've read said article...My question is Bush declaring war again?

Your not even American are you?
(no offense)

[CaptinPickAxe]

Also, I don't sweat it untill its said and done. I have other things to worry about inbetween now and 2005. Like start college, tuition, housing, etc. Yes, it is unsettling, but I can't do sh!t untill it comes time to vote or go to war, now can I? so what is b!tching about going to accomplish?

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
I'm not exactly what your calling a plain faced lie.

The issue that this thread is about: the assertion that the Bush administration is trying to implement a draft, and the various speculations on this.


Your not even American are you?

No. Why?

[CaptinPickAxe]

Where are you from if you don't mind me asking?

[Fred Sanford]

Speaking as a US citizen who has served in the USMC. In some ways I'd like to see a draft instituted.

If you have not served your country in some capacity...military, police, or other gvt. service.......how the fcuk do you have the right to sit on your ass and do nothing but whine about the way things are? how does that work exactly?

just like the 18 year old kid who sets US Flags on fire in protest of the great life his parents have bought and paid for. who the heck are you?

[CaptinPickAxe]

I think anyone is entitled to their opinions. Certainly though I wouldn't discredit your experience. This is supposed to be a Democracy (I kinda doubt that these days) so civilian votes are just as good as military.

[Christopher M]

Canada.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

I guess a few people overlooked the "??" in the thread title. ;)

While I agree it is unlikely that the draft will happen in Spring 2005, I also have to say that the issue is still in front of the goverment and COULD be implemented at ANY time.

But I think the concept of a draft is worthwhile talking about, I also kinda agree with Fred.
There are plenty people sitting around and talking about the war and how it is a good thing, etc. Not really realising/knowing that they are talking about fellow americans and what it means to be in the military, etc.

It is easy to say "send more troops" or similar knowing well that the decision won't have any impact on your lifes and family. One of the reasons why I prefer a President that has served and preferable seen actual combat.

While I was young I looked down at the compulsory military service in my country, having grown older I appreciate the experience and knowledge gained more and more.

[scotty1]

"If you have not served your country in some capacity...military, police, or other gvt. service.......how the fcuk do you have the right to sit on your ass and do nothing but whine about the way things are? how does that work exactly?"

Only people who've worked for the Government have the right to an opinion about that Government or the country? Is that really what you're saying?

reminds me of Starship Troopers, lol. :)

[Serpent]

What about people who's life choices involve paying tax dollars to support those whose life choices include the military, police or government?

They have a right as to how that government spends their tax dollars, and therefore they have a right to state their opinions.

[Serpent]

Oh, and for what it's worth, nobody's parents bought and paid for the America that Bush is running. That's all his own twisted work.

[Shaolinlueb]

im up for the party in baja :D

[GLW]

"Also, I don't sweat it untill its said and done. "

THAT approach is how you end up fighting for what you LOST instead of fighting to keep what is yours.

As for who has a right to have a voice in how the system works and what we do as a nation...

Actually EVERYONE of voting age has not only the right but the RESPONSIBILITY to have a voice and to use it.

ALL authority should be questioned. This is one of the paradoxes of our society. Those that have put their lives on the line are possibly not the best equipped to act as a full member of a Democratic Republic.

By this I mean that one of the things that makes a person a good soldier is an ability to follow orders, respect the chain of command, and to act in accordance to the LEGAL instructions of superiors even when you don't agree with them.

A citizen, in contrast, should question ALL the actions of those in power. The chain of command is NOT from the President down but from the VOTER up.... and citizens should use all legal means of protest to voice their opinions about laws and policies.... While the government should NEVER make laws that interfere with the ability of the people to exercise their rights.

About the only real problem I have with this whole setup is that it is optional for people to NOT vote... Having a holiday or whatever for elections and then making voting mandatory .... may have its problems but is in some ways better than having a 40% voter turnout.

As for a draft, I have NEVER been opposed to required National Service...just required National MILITARY Service. A required stint in National Service where the person has the choice of Military (at possibly better benefits afterwards - risk more, get more) or civil service like Peace Corps, construction, etc... AND ZERO exemptions would not be a bad thing... Such a situation can then be altered to allow for fewer options in war times.

[Shaolinlueb]

quote full metal jacket.

"i like to go to exotic lands, meet the people. and kill them"

......:o

i dont feel like posting links to all these so here is a link to the forum

http://www.importlove.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15546

it shows plenty of "raiq alquaida links":o

[Vash]

GLW;

I agree. I want to help make this a better place to live, and I believe that by being a personal trainer, helping people become healthier, more productive people, I'll be doing just that.

I just don't intend to kill for this leader and his objective. I'd sooner die so someone could find out what life's for, and help another person have a good life. And them finding my God certainly wouldn't bother me. :eek: :eek: :eek:

AHHHHHH!!!! It's a Bible Thumper!!!! Kill it!

[Judge Pen]

Not that I would be in danger of being drafted (30 in January) I would go willingly if called. Not that I support Bush (I didn't vote for him and will not this time either) or the War in Iraq, but it's part of being a citizen just like taxes. Call me a sheep, but I beleive in having a since of duty that transcendss personal opinions. Alvin C. York, the most decorated veteren in American military history was a pascifist, but yet he fought, and fought well, in World War I.

[Gangsterfist]

I just watched this DVD put out that is all about the politics behind the current war in Iraq. It has tons of qualified government officals on it. The Bush administration went over their for personal reasons. Bush Jr., wanted revenge I guess from the first gulf war and wanted to finish what his daddy started, or wants to make money, or just does not like sadam - who knows. Chenney is supportive for the oil. You can go apply to be a part of Haliburton's private military force and go over to Iraq. You are going to be guarding the pipe lines and oil fields.

The war on terrorism is the card they play to keep this war acceptable in the eyes of the average american. I do not agree with this war at all, but I gotta say there is so much BS put on that what is really happening is very hard to understand. I am confused myself a lot of the times.

Here is a link to the DVD, I suggest you order it and watch it. Then think about the draft.

http://www.truthuncovered.com/home.cfm

[Vash]

If this was a war on Afghanistan, I'd go. I don't fight for something I don't believe in. I can't.

Mad, MAD props to each and every person serving in America's Armed Forces. You all deserve a hell of a lot more than you get.

[Shen Zhou]

EXCERPT FROM Military Draft: Neo Con Agenda Makes it Necessary



To get closer to the truth, one has to examine MOTIVES.

HR.163 / Charlie Rangel (D-NY)

Rangel introduced this bill before the war started because he was incensed (representing Harlem) that children of poverty were the ones who were fighting this war. If the war was indeed for oil, or for Zion, as some think, then one might ask whether children of oilmen, or of Zion, were also dying. He figured one way for people to take the killing seriously was to make it as potentially fatal for the sons and DAUGHTERS of the rich as the poor. Females gotta go (Hi Jenna, Barbara!) and no college deferments. No scooting to Canada either (Ashcroft (R) quietly helped plug that hole). I see that Jim McDermott (WA-7) is listed as a sponsor of the house bill. Anyone who knows HIS politics knows that he is not trying to provide cannon fodder for this war!

S.89 / Fritz Hollings (D-SC)

I can't speak to Sen. Hollings motivations. Someone should ask him. I'd conjecture that, given his recent statements about the war in Iraq being motivated by Israel, that he seeks to draft the children of Zion, just as Rangle seeks to draft the children of the Rich.

COMMENT: These bills say "IF there is to be a draft, it will be equitable"

COMMENT: These bills have been WILDLY successful in stimulating discussion; look at the numbers of interested readers. Democracy jump-started. The young citizens who are incensed at a draft because their life is impacted should expand their view a bit, but good start.

Let's examine the possible motivations of the Bush administration in NOT asking for a draft. Here are some thoughts:

(1) Rumsfeld first thought that this could be a "high-tech" war, not a people war. He chased Shinseki into retirement when the general opined that it'd take 200,000 troops to stabilize the country. Profits high with hi-tech war; profits low with people war. Rumsfeld had HOPES that he wouldn't need a lot, but he was wrong. We are at 138,000 and climbing.

(2) Rumsfeld figured he'd call up the Reserves and National Guard, and use them in ways they weren't intended. So don't need to get NEW soldiers, just need to OVERWORK the ones we have. So call up those groups, and extend tours of duty. The NEO-CONS have been avoiding the draft issue because they know it would be unpopular. They wanted a nice quiet war.

(3) Pentagon hires mercentaries, privatized military to do the dirty work, when we don't have enough new inductees. Hard to find out how many we are using, but they are paid MANY times as well as our troops. So much better that the military is now struggling with attrition by those who could do the same job for much more pay. Oh, and let's not forget that those private firms aren't subject to the same "rules of engagement" as our military. They're "civilian contractors". We can even use our Israeli contractors to help with interrogations.

(4) Money cures a lot of ills. The war that was "only" going to cost $60B is now going to cost MANY times that. That money will buy mercenaries, and together with Bush's "fast-track trade authority" can be used to induce some other governments to send THEIR children to die.

(5) And if they don't want to send their citizens to our war, then heck, let's just open the floodgates to Mexican "temporary workers" and give them automatic citizenship if they serve in Iraq. That should get lots of cannon fodder. And that way, the brown people can kill the brown people, so no biggie.

BUT ...

In spite of all those dials and levers that the NEO CONS had, for running a high-profit, low people, back-room war, they are STILL in trouble. And you know what? They will need a draft, but they sure as h*ll don't want to SPONSOR it! Let the Democrats sponsor it. The real key is whether it is voted in or not. If Republicans are opposed to a draft, then they will vote it down, since the control Congress. Or maybe they'll vote it through just as a gesture of respect to the Democrats - RIGHT ... Besides, they can figure out later how to keep the children of privilege from getting shot at.

So now the NEO-CONS need the draft but don't want to say so. So they spin up the selective service boards, stack the appeals boards and wait for the bills to pass, then blame the Democrats.

HR 487 / Ron Paul (R-TX)

Enter Ron Paul, Republican, but "conspiracy theorist" and truth teller. Evidently he can't get used to the stink and want to surface the plot by blocking NEO CON access to drafted kids, even if it was sponsored by Democrats.

BOTTOM LINE

It is not the draft that is wrong; there is sometimes a place for the draft.

It is this whole d*mn war with Iraq that is wrong. The secret agenda is wrong. The subversion of our Constitution and Bill of Rights is wrong. If this war were not founded on a lie, young people would sign up. Many did before.

Americans were DRAGGED into this war by Bush and his friends. They DO NOT INTEND TO LEAVE. If young people cannot help to unseat this man, and all those connected to him, then as Commander in Chief, he will stay and a draft will be needed. If there is a draft, BUSH and his NEO-CON friends will be responsible, whether they introduced the bills or not.

So, welcome to the 60's. Your turn now.

[Ford Prefect]

THe SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Vash
If this was a war on Afghanistan, I'd go. I don't fight for something I don't believe in. I can't.

Mad, MAD props to each and every person serving in America's Armed Forces. You all deserve a hell of a lot more than you get.

:werd: i like it.

[Becca]

Originally posted by Vash
If it does happen, either sooner or later, I certainly hope there is a little box for "conscientious objector." I REFUSE to fight for this "War on Terrorism," or anything else that this administration touts as necessary for the common good, or whatever their tagline is these days.

Call me a coward, unAmerican, whathaveyou. This is a cause and a leader which I cannot support.
I call you none of the above, Vash. But there is more to it than fighting a war you don't believe in. You could go Coast Gaurd and save people's lives right here. Or get into a humanitarian group and help those you think our soldiers are harming.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Becca

I call you none of the above, Vash. But there is more to it than fighting a war you don't believe in. You could go Coast Gaurd and save people's lives right here. Or get into a humanitarian group and help those you think our soldiers are harming.

That's what I would elect to do if given the choice. I'd rather see my life used to make a positive difference in someone's life as opposed to putting someone else's life at risk.

I'd be a horrible soldier. I come very close to having a panic attack just walking across campus. There's no way I could handle something like a war.

[dwid]

I'd be a horrible soldier. I come very close to having a panic attack just walking across campus. There's no way I could handle something like a war.

No offense, but I read this and then read the Conan quote in your sig and found the discrepancy a little funny.

:)

[Vash]

Originally posted by dwid


No offense, but I read this and then read the Conan quote in your sig and found the discrepancy a little funny.

:)

Oh, don't let the nervous disorder fool you. I am the embodiment of all that is man.

[Ford Prefect]

Except for the good soldier part. :p

[Vash]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Except for the good soldier part. :p

Well, yeah, that's a given. :o :D

[Stacey]

I'm not against war, I'm against being cannon fodder for the upperclass. Why should I go kill another working man in the middle East so that the Saudi/Bush/Bin Laden families can grow even richer and spend the summer's together. They are the enemy. If I am forced to take up arms, I wont fire at my brother in the middle East, but the vipers that grow rich on war.

If he follows suit, the real enemy is gone and both of us can return to our families.

[Christopher M]

:confused: Seriously - why do you guys keep speculating about the reasons for something which doesn't exist? The Bush Administration is not trying to implement a draft. The bills in question have already been linked to this thread so you can see for yourselves.

[Unmatchable]

if they do reinstate the draft and you refuse to partake, get ready to have your **** pushed in in pound you in the ass penetentary they will send you for treason. btw even non U.S citizens were drafted in Vietnam *******s.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Christopher M
The Bush Administration is not trying to implement a draft.

Got conclusive proof of that(and I don't mean white House statements and public speeches) and proof that the draft won't be re-instated in the future??

IME, when a goverment wants/needs to pass a Bill it happens before you can blink twice and without any consultation from the populace. And thus it is worhwhile to consider such a scneario, still smiling at the people that think they can class themselves EASILY as a CO and thus avoid going to the front. :D
The Goverment has the right to stop processing CO application and has done so in the past.

Right now the US Army is stretched too thin, the current trend seems to be to reduce soldiers and replace them with EXPENSIVE high-tech gear(see South Korea, etc.).
This in itself is not bad, but it results in a shortage of qualified/experienced soldiers that can be called up on a short notice when situations like Iraq and similar go beyond expectations.

If the situation in Iraq really deteriorates into a civil war after June 30th what will the US Army do:
1.) Pull out due to insuficient troops/bad move)
2.) Pull more troops from other areas like South Korea, etc. /so-so move
3.) Try to survive with the current Troops(some of which might be deployed for a max period of 3yrs overseas)/so-so move
4.) Draft People to swell the ranks.

Bush has said now multiple times that he will go the distance and do what is needed in Iraq, guess at whoose expenses the soldiers/reservists and the taxpayers money/economy.

I think he will do whatever it takes in Iraq so that nobody can say he didn't finish or pulled out to early.
If he pulls short of his latest statements his and the image of the US will suffer badly in the eyes of the world.
Right now his only option is to go the distance, regardless of the costs.

IMHO, I think that the reinstatement of the Draft is a very likely option if he remains in power after the next election, especially when they need more people than they got volunteers.
In the end it does NOT matter who re-instated the draft.

Like I said I like the National Service for a few reasons:
1.) Troops can be mobilised in a matter of hours(30~60min in case of Switzerland), sending them to the field can be done with about 3-days of refreshment training. (basics, etc were done during the national service).
2.) You got a bigger pool of "reservists" to call on, nearly the whole male population.
3.) Doing a stint in the military teaches very valubale lessons to teens and helps them grow into mature adults.
4.) The populace is aware of what military life and duties mean.

Have fun.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
Got conclusive proof of that(and I don't mean white House statements and public speeches)

Yes. "The bills in question have already been linked to this thread so you can see for yourselves." They are Democrat bills. Hasn't this been pointed out already? (http://www.sightandhearing.org/news/healthissue/old/images/plugging-ears.jpg) :confused:

[YinYangDagger]

Anyone else find the irony in a bunch of martial artists being against war?

Martial: Of or relating to war.

Phrost. I couldn't agree with you MORE. Some of the responses on this subject sickens me. Call it what you want gents, con objector, "won't support the party", whatever, but I see it as plain ol' cowardice. Some of you should be ashamed to call yourself martial artists. What a fu(king joke. Go throw some punches in the air some more and play.

TJM - I agree with you on making it mandatory.

P.S. This is my opinion. I'm deserved of it as yours. If you have something smart a$$ to say, let me go ahead right here and reply: FU(K YOU. I've been reading bullshido.com today and now I'm in a mood. If you don't like that: see above response. :mad:

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by YinYangDagger
Anyone else find the irony in a bunch of martial artists being against war?

Martial: Of or relating to war.

Phrost. I couldn't agree with you MORE. Some of the responses on this subject sickens me. Call it what you want gents, con objector, "won't support the party", whatever, but I see it as plain ol' cowardice. Some of you should be ashamed to call yourself martial artists. What a fu(king joke. Go throw some punches in the air some more and play.

TJM - I agree with you on making it mandatory.

P.S. This is my opinion. I'm deserved of it as yours. If you have something smart a$$ to say, let me go ahead right here and reply: FU(K YOU. I've been reading bullshido.com today and now I'm in a mood. If you don't like that: see above response. :mad:

i dont find it irionic martial artists being against war. many are trained to be peaceful and use in defense, plus a lot of martial artists dont care about kung fu many might jsut like forms. unless you were trained in a more military style. even then you have to have self control. me personally, if i dont have to fight then the better. i hate conflict. nothing wrong with that. a real experienced martial artist could probably tlak his way out of conflict instead of throwing punches.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Christopher M


Yes. "The bills in question have already been linked to this thread so you can see for yourselves." They are Democrat bills. Hasn't this been pointed out already? (http://www.sightandhearing.org/news/healthissue/old/images/plugging-ears.jpg) :confused:

So the Democrats are NOT part of the US Goverment.

I don't know why you got such a bug up your arse thinking that all statements refer to the Bush and his neo-cronies.

Now slowly for YOU maybe it will sink in:
Once the Bills are passed it does NOT matter a flying sh@t whose bills they are.

I will even reply for your to safe you some time:

Chris M: "The republicans don't want the draft reinstated."

Agreed, at the moment but WHO knows what they will want in 6mnths, 1yr.

Easy enough to understand or do we need a baseball bat get to get it into your Head.

[Christopher M]

Yeah, who knows how I could have got the impression you were speculating about the Bush Administration here.

It's not like what you said was "Bush has said now multiple times that he will go the distance... I think he will do whatever it takes... If he pulls short of his latest statements his and the image of the US will suffer badly... Right now his only option is to go the distance, regardless of the costs... the reinstatement of the Draft is a very likely option if he remains in power..."

Oh no wait. That's exactly what you said.

Well, it's not like the original article made silly claims like "The administration is quietly trying to get these bills passed now... Selective Service must report to Bush... The pentagon has quietly begun a public campaign... if Rumsfeld's prediction of a 'long, hard slog' in Iraq and Afghanistan proves accurate, the U.S. may have no choice but to draft... " and it's not like it urged readers to vote Democrat even if they otherwise support the war because "Even those voters who currently support US actions abroad may still object to this move."

Oh no wait. It did do all that.

Well, this error of associating the draft with the Bush administration is probably just limited to you and the original article. It's not like other people commented "I REFUSE to fight for this 'War on Terrorism,' or anything else that this administration touts as necessary... is Jeb just planning ahead for future exploits?... Military Draft: Neo Con Agenda Makes it Necessary... Why should I go kill another working man in the middle East so that the Saudi/Bush/Bin Laden families can grow even richer..."

Oh. No. Wait. That's precisely what other people commented.

Huh.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Lets forget about all the people that say I won't fight the current war if they are drafted.
Those guys obviously got NO idea what it means being drafted, and declaring yourself a CO for most will be nothing more than a stained sheet at night at the front.

I NEVER linked the bills to the Bush Administration, I posted an article/site and ASKED for Opinions about what was on there.
But in your zeal to proof your superiority AGAIN you conveniently overlooked that.

Like always you make unfound statements about other peoples post hoping to gain something, I just reread my first post and failed to see BUSH ANYWHERE. Feel free to proof me wrong. Neither does it say that the Bills were proposed by the Bush Administration.
Later on I gave my OPINION, never stated it was fact or the TRUTH.

But since you like to comment a lot on threads and posts, how about the following statement:
"Democracy is not the end of History, but the middle of History."
And that is why the Nep-cons got it all wrong.

Have fun.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
I NEVER linked the bills to the Bush Administration

Bush has said now multiple times that he will go the distance... I think he will do whatever it takes... If he pulls short of his latest statements his and the image of the US will suffer badly... Right now his only option is to go the distance, regardless of the costs... the reinstatement of the Draft is a very likely option if he remains in power...
:rolleyes:

I posted an article/site and ASKED for Opinions about what was on there.
And I gave mine. I guess you were only looking for the "right" opinions though.

Like always you make unfound statements
My response was to link up the bills in question. I think you may be unclear on the meaning of 'unfounded' if that is how you describe this strategy.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Christopher M

:rolleyes:


Yeah, you look so sweet when you roll your eyes.
Come her and let me give you big sloppy kiss.

You would make a great politican you talk a LOT with little substance or valid responses to other peoples comments.


And I gave mine. I guess you were only looking for the "right" opinions though.


No, everybodies except yours, because EVERYBODY already knows what yours is. ;)


My response was to link up the bills in question. I think you may be unclear on the meaning of 'unfounded' if that is how you describe this strategy.

Wasted considering that I already had a link to the Bills up.
Plus, WHO put up the Bills was NEVER an issue here till you came along and started your usual "Bush" talk.

So your point being??

[Christopher M]

Yeah (http://www.takebackthemedia.com/draft.html) you're (http://www.vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/01/105146.php) probably (http://www.blah3.com/graymatter/archives/00001326.html) right (http://www.democraticwings.com/democraticwings/archives/election_2004/000445.php), there's (http://www.objector.org/positionpaper.html) no (http://www.bushdraft.com/) misinformation (http://homepage.mac.com/gordonsoderberg/Personal43.html) linking (http://www.utne.com/webwatch/2004_147/news/11211-1.html) the (http://www.oilempire.us/draft.html) draft (http://www.labournet.net/other/0403/draft1.html) to (http://www.utne.com/cgi-bin/udt/im.display.printable?client.id=utne_web_watch&story.id=11211) Bush (http://www.badculture.com/archives/000385.html).

I (http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=5919736&content_dir=ua_congressorg) must (http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=5917516&content_dir=ua_congressorg) be (http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=5916141&content_dir=ua_congressorg) paranoid (http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=5915941&content_dir=ua_congressorg).

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
WHO put up the Bills was NEVER an issue here till you came along and started your usual "Bush" talk.

The original article asserted that the administration was secretly trying to pass a draft legislation and urged people to vote Democrat to oppose it. This was before I "came along", right?

Do you really not see how it's pertinent to observe that the draft legislation is Democrat?

Does this explicit misrepresentation not bother you?

Yeah, it's my usual song and dance - inform yourselves, think critically. Still falling on deaf ears though. You eat the lies they feed you because you love their taste.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

If you go to http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/draft.asp you will also find something about this issue.

Read the status: [B]"PROBABLY NOT"[B]
Interesting read.

Again your point being??
Can't people discuss the POSSIBILITY of the Draft being reinstated without having you muck up the conversation.

FWIW, US Goverment does NOT EQUAL Bush Administration for me.

Have fun.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Christopher M

Yeah, it's my usual song and dance - inform yourselves, think critically. Still falling on deaf ears though. You eat the lies they feed you because you love their taste.

You know your statement might have some merit if I was American, since I am not whatever the US Goverment decides does in actuality NOT affect me.

So why are you as a Canadian so obsessed with the US Goverment and the Bush Administration??

[Christopher M]

Can't people propagandize without getting "mucked up" with a bit of the pesky truth? I really hope not.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Chris M.

Do you know why I would recommend a National Service for American Citizens and many other countries, because IMHO they have forgotten a lot of things and have started to believe in the "American Dream" forgetting that this Idea/Dream is an Ideal and not reality.

Thinks like Freedom/Democracy/etc are only for people that can afford them, neither can those things be given/taught to other people.

US Policy in Germany and Japan was successful because those countries already had the foundation for democracy and were already on the road towards it.
I speak to people from a lot of countries and it is really interesting to hear different sides and opinions.

I always love when I hear comments that cutting someones hand off goes against democratic values but gassing someone to death is ok, talk about a bunch of gob.

[Ford Prefect]

Taiji Monkey,

Have you ever been to America? If so, where and how long? Or are you just basing this off what you see on TV?

[scotty1]

Just because the term used to describe fighting arts uses the word 'martial' doesn't mean all 'martial artists' want to join the military.

Q: What exactly does training in a fighting art as a civilian, for your own personal protection, have to do with war in the 21st century anyway?

A: Jack sh!t.

[David Jamieson]

Canada also used conscription. Though they would only use it during times of great need and rescind it entirely in peace time.

the last time conscription was used was in WW2. It was enacted in the same year that we made the joint defense pact with the US.

Canada still has the "draft", but it is only to be used if the war comes to our soil. We don't use it to drum up an invading force.

During ww2, canada was part of Britain still and ergo conscription applied.

Anyway, if Bush gets in again, you can probably bet on getting drafted and sent off to the hell in the middle east where you will be the pot shot target of every crazy mullah loving fanatic available while you toil in danger for your meager script and to forward the military industrial complex that the american economy has been propped on for oh so long LOL.

Poor bas.tards, some of you guys are really gonna hate that experience. But come on up to Canada! It's cold, but it's a free country.

cheers

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Taiji Monkey,

Have you ever been to America? If so, where and how long? Or are you just basing this off what you see on TV?

I have been there, done bussiness with many US guys, got US expats friends and literally talked to thousands.

Example 1:
Americans seem to believe that the live in the country that has the most freedom, actually I have been to countries where there is more actual freedom than in the states.

Many of my expat friends themselves said what I said here.

One thing that I see is that BOTH Europe and the USA(a little slower) is evolving into the next stage after democracy, i.e. turning towards right-wing more populace control, etc.

Democracy is not the final ultimate stop in goverment form but simply an evolutionary step, many europeans already realised that.

[Meat Shake]

Originally posted by Phrost
Anyone else find the irony in a bunch of martial artists being against war?

Martial: Of or relating to war.

mar·tial ( P ) Pronunciation Key (märshl)
adj.

1. Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
2. Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
3. Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.

I gave the definition of warrior in another thread. But yes, your answer is partially correct.

And phrost, just to clear it up, Im not following your posts trying to prove you wrong, Im just quick to hit up dictionary.com when someone drops a definition that I question. :)

[Meat Shake]

"So why are you as a Canadian so obsessed with the US Goverment and the Bush Administration??"

Because america is undoubtedly the most powerful nation in the world, and we have an idiot leading our armies.
Its like giving a loaded gun to an angry child with downsyndrome in the middle of a daycare.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
Anyway, if Bush gets in again, you can probably bet on getting drafted

As opposed to if Kerry gets elected, where we can bet on not getting drafted?

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
turning towards right-wing more populace control, etc.

What does populace control have to do with right-wing? :confused:

[blooming lotus]

what do drafts really have to do with serving your country????.....In my opinion , especially where Bush and his one world government objectives are concerned ...what you're really serving his is his ego....what bs option, to serve, suffer consequence or uproot your life : flee and become a native criminal..........BS, but we knew it was comming.................

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Why are you so worried. Most Nations on earth have mandatory military service. This is not unusual for anywhere else on earth.

dont be a fool
just cos it exists doesnt mean its good or that people support it
pratically everone i know (xept a few dumb fockers) is against draft
but we still have it
and we dodge it
oh man how we dodge
and we like to dodge it
im about to have an orgasm

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Christopher M


What does populace control have to do with right-wing? :confused:

Sorry, for got to insert a comma there it should read.

"turning towards right-wing, more populace control, etc"

But I guess anal-retentive people like you can't spot it.
;)

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
what do drafts really have to do with serving your country????.....In my opinion , especially where Bush and his one world government objectives are concerned ...what you're really serving his is his ego....what bs option, to serve, suffer consequence or uproot your life : flee and become a native criminal..........BS, but we knew it was comming.................

They elected him and now they got to swallow the Pill.
:D

[cerebus]

Huh? Who elected him? George W. Bush was NOT elected. He was appointed. He used his connections (including his brother Jeb) to screw up the elections in Florida and pulled enough strings elsewhere to get himself appointed.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by cerebus
Huh? Who elected him? George W. Bush was NOT elected. He was appointed. He used his connections (including his brother Jeb) to screw up the elections in Florida and pulled enough strings elsewhere to get himself appointed.

So what was done about it for the last 3 1/2yrs??

If the majority didn't want him what the h@ck is he still doing in the Office, or you guys let anybody walk in and accept him stealing the US Goverment??

I can tell you that if he was NOT legally elected in the majority of countries in the world there would have been a major BIG stink about it from the populace.

There are plenty of countries were even legally elected leaders were not allowed to finish their first term due to a variety of reasons. Those leaders were legally dismissed from their posts too.

If US voters got that little control over their goverment I feel sorry for them. Elected leaders are there to serve the citizens, if he doesn't do a good job you don't need to wait for the next election to get rid of him.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
But I guess anal-retentive people like you can't spot it.

Can't spot what you didn't put? **** them!

Your inability to make any sense doesn't make me anal-retentive, it's something you manage all on your own.

[YinYangDagger]

This is an argument you'll hear from time to time by the sore losers. I hear it all the time living in San Antonio regarding the Spurs. Los Angeles cheated, the Lakers would have lost if the refs hadn't...whatever. Face facts, the Spurs lost, just like the Democrats in that election.


"Huh? Who elected him? George W. Bush was NOT elected. He was appointed."

By the way, WHO appointed GWB to win?

"He used his connections (including his brother Jeb) to screw up the elections in Florida and pulled enough strings elsewhere to get himself appointed."

Again, by WHO?

Easy answer: The People.

[BlueTravesty]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
what do drafts really have to do with serving your country????.....In my opinion , especially where Bush and hisone world government objectives are concerned ...what you're really serving his is his ego....what bs option, to serve, suffer consequence or uproot your life : flee and become a native criminal..........BS, but we knew it was comming.................

Yeah, it won't get REALLY ugly though, until the Lizards find out they've been cut out of the deal. Then Bush will have to use his connections with the Oil Companies (who are evil and satanic, et al.), and that cult known as Haliburton (do I even have to say they're evil? they're a corporation! geez...) to win enough sway with the Illuminati so that they can buy a whole bunch of new, shiny Black Helicopters equipped with Mad-Cow-Disease rays, and assassinate a Kennedy heir in order to demonstrate their power (since the Kennedys are obviously Reptilian, duh.) The sad part is that none of this would have happened if the Grays had just stayed out of it and not used their mind-beams and electrodisruptors to change the outcome of the election!!!!!


jerks. :mad:

[cerebus]

YYD, I guess you must've slept through the election and heard about it later?

Perhaps you are unaware of all the voting "mistakes" made in Florida (where Jeb Bush is governor)? All the votes that were not taken into account (some of which were not even "discovered" until after the election).

As for who appointed him the winner, guess you missed that part too. Congress did (it pays to have business partners in high places).

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Christopher M
Your inability to make any sense doesn't make me anal-retentive, it's something you manage all on your own.

Or could it be that you don't know what is going on in the rest of the world and thus talk out of your arse trying to sound clever.

More and more countries want right-wing solutions without having a pure right-wing goverment.
The political landscape across the globe is changing as more and more countries don't see democracy as the ultimate form of goverment.

Democracy like most other forms of goverment look nice and perfect on paper but perform poorly when put into practice. The majority of the world has realised that there is NO perfect method for governing a country and thus we will see more and more mixed concepts appear in the future.
My own country has been social-democratic for the last 50yrs and is fed up with it and has recently elected a right-wing(neo-nazi) goverment that didn't last long.

Example:
Most Japanese I know reckon that communism would be the perfect goverment for Japan and the Japanese mindset.

In reality is that there is no right or wrong when it comes to goverments as they are all driven by what the people in power want for themselves and ignore the wishes of everybody else.

I see it quiet possible that in decades to come democracy might seen as bad as we see communism now.

Lots of people look at their countries history and see that they were stronger under other forms of goverment than democracy, and yes it might mean less freedom and rights.

Most people I know that got some thinking power DON'T want to vote for any of the major parties but rather want smaller parties to gain in power so that there is a valid opposition to the "ruling" power.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
Or could it be that you don't know what is going on in the rest of the world and thus talk out of your arse trying to sound clever.

Since I was the one citing primary sources to clarify the misunderstanding you came to from citing rumour mills, this doesn't seem to be the case in this particular instance. Is it the case in other instances? Offer an example, and we'll see. Or suggest a point of debate, and I'll be happy to engage you. Otherwise, this seems like a vacuous attempt at a character attack.


Democracy like most other forms of goverment look nice and perfect on paper but perform poorly when put into practice.

What do you recommend in its place?


...recently elected a right-wing(neo-nazi) goverment that didn't last long.

You continue to appear confused on this point: socialism and right-wing are antithetical, not synonymous. I suspected you were confused on this point before, but when I pressed for an elaboration of your views you chose to discuss punctuation and offer ad hominems instead. Hopefully a more constructive strategy will be apparent this time.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by YinYangDagger
Easy answer: The People.

You mustn't have been paying attention. The Electoral College is only desirable when it elects Democrats. Otherwise, it's a fraud and crime against democracy and human decency in general. :p

[YinYangDagger]

Yep, you're right Christopher M. Face facts folks, it doesn't matter at ALL what Bush does or didn't do, the simple fact is he's Republican, and the Demos will fault any and every action he does. It's all political. It's how it works.

I PRAY they would institute the draft. It would be the BEST thing to happen to America.

The only problem I have with Bush is he's going too easy on Iraq. There should be lots more destruction and less political BS. Bombs away.

[cerebus]

Yeah YYD, you're all for the draft and more war.....as long as you're not the one over there fighting it, eh? I dub thee..."Mini-Bush".

Easy to sit at your computer and advocate death and destruction as long as you don't have to have anything to do with it. People like you just prove my point.

EDIT: PS, I'm not a Democrat either. I'm simply for whoever will be a worthwhile president for this country. I'm sorry to see you guys are so caught up in your political party BS that you're willing to turn a blind eye to what a piece a shyte "Dubya" has turned out to be.

[YinYangDagger]

Cerebus, per my DD214 and MSO:

Military Occupational Specialty: 0311 (Infantry), 0861 (Scout Observer)
Pay Grade: E4
Decorations, Medals, Badges, etc:
Southwest Asia Service Medal (2D Award)
Joint Meritorious Unit Citation
Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal
National Defense Service Medal
Humanitarian Service Medal (Monrovia, Liberia)
Combat Action Ribbon
Secretary State Letter of Appreciation
Battalion Commander Letter of Appreciation
Reenlistment Code: RE1A
Rifle Qualification: Expert (4th Award)
Pistol Qualification: Expert (3rd Award)
3RD BN, 8th Marines Hand-to-Hand Combat Instructor

Point is, been there done that, and may go back again. Thanks
;)

[cerebus]

Gee, I'm so impressed. I have a similar record, I just don't lean on it. Hope you do go. Be sure to kill lotsa people and have fun.

[YinYangDagger]

uhhh yeah, right...

Not trying to impress you BUT you wanted to challenge me with the "easy to sit at your computer" bullshi!t, then you don't like what you see.

Frankly I could give two sh!ts whether I impress you or anyone else, but just goes to show that you don't know every fu(king thing. What a punk.

[YinYangDagger]

Be sure to kill lotsa people and have fun.

If I do, I'll be sure and say "this is for cerebus" right afterward. I want a Rolex, too.

[cerebus]

I'm sure you will. And you'll probably come back with a whole collection of Rolex's.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by BlueTravesty


Yeah, it won't get REALLY ugly though, until the Lizards find out they've been cut out of the deal. Then Bush will have to use his connections with the Oil Companies (who are evil and satanic, et al.), and that cult known as Haliburton (do I even have to say they're evil? they're a corporation! geez...) to win enough sway with the Illuminati so that they can buy a whole bunch of new, shiny Black Helicopters equipped with Mad-Cow-Disease rays, and assassinate a Kennedy heir in order to demonstrate their power (since the Kennedys are obviously Reptilian, duh.) The sad part is that none of this would have happened if the Grays had just stayed out of it and not used their mind-beams and electrodisruptors to change the outcome of the election!!!!!


jerks. :mad:





Bush has uge stakes in illumanti and just happens to [I]own/I] a big hare of oil stock in IraQ...what a mf coincedence.......I also find it just a little intersting that bush's family owns both weaopons trade market in the us and one of the only anti-virus pharmecuetical businesses for "new-aged" bio-chem disease ........screw Bush and screw his uneducated supporters!!!!!..............Ps...speaking of mind - beams...did you know the ussr is leading the field in research of higher conciousness and "extra-sensory " perception...like audio-kinetics.....telekenisis and esp????....these folks have conducted tests for several decades and if you don't have the info or consider yourself a sceptic because you've nver heard and considered the facts........admit it...you are in need of more information...therefore your perception of life is based on judgment of information you just don't have... :eek: :eek: .......................WTF????????



Ps....how many folks here are aware 89 and call me mad or just consider the facts)...that wih tidays' technology, they have satellites that can can zoom into your very private room and photograph and enlarge the fly that landed on your desk whie you were screwing your secratary????? dead set...and my Iq is nearly 25 points above theirs.....so ...understand or not...what dio I perceive ??????



I know.......I know...uneducated , unthinking joe says jack.....you're off your head right????? ..but to the thinking audience..what do you say????????..i've read several "secret docs" my hacker little bro has shoved down my throat, coupled with my own research..........and you thought you were aware of the world?????????


whachya you got????????

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Christopher M


Since I was the one citing primary sources to clarify the misunderstanding you came to from citing rumour mills, this doesn't seem to be the case in this particular instance.


Gimme your sources, that are 3 independant verifiable sources that are accepted within scientific circles.
Anything less than that is pure propaganda, I though you were a scientist and you forget the basic rule of proofing ANY fact.
BTW, the original source does NOT count unless it has been verified by 3 independant parties/sources.




What do you recommend in its place?


I am not sure that I have a recommendation, but I know that there is NO universal\perfect form of goverment.

Each country HAS to choose their own prefered form of goverment, even capitalism has shown it's own failings.




You continue to appear confused on this point: socialism and right-wing are antithetical, not synonymous.


Are they really? The boundaries we currently know are being stretched/merged and new forms of goverment will emerge.

Lookat the trends in europe and you will see some VERY interesting developments and some that are running opposite to the USA ones for good or bad.

More and more countries seem to see value in a mild form of National Socalism, what about that?
The current distinction of B/W that many hold to be true don't exist anymore and no matter how much wishing is going to fit their "perfect" ideology.



Hopefully a more constructive strategy will be apparent this time.

It is there but I seem to talk to a person that doesn't seem to have a flexible enough mindset to be able to fathom them nor seems to be up to date with the current evolutions and studies.

Democracy is a form of goverment that will NOT survive in the long run, if it was that superior why did it not take over other forms of goverment when the greeks introduced it thousands of years ago??

Show me one true 100% democracy that exist in the world? Most of the "democractic" countries are republics that are struggling with their imperial pasts.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
Gimme your sources

For what? :confused:


I am not sure that I have a recommendation, but I know that there is NO universal\perfect form of goverment.

Certainly not. This in itself is not a critique of democracy though (or liberalism, etc.).


Each country HAS to choose their own prefered form of goverment

This seems like a statement up for debate rather than one which is true a priori. For instance, there are certainly arguments that external intervention was warranted for Hitler's government.


Are they really?

Yes, right-wing and socialist really are antithetical. They are mutually defined on the basis of their antithesism.


The boundaries we currently know are being stretched/merged and new forms of goverment will emerge.

Right. This doesn't seem to change the above fact. Mixing red and orange makes yellow, but that doesn't mean red and orange are the same color.


It is there but I seem to talk to a person that doesn't seem to have a flexible enough mindset to be able to fathom them nor seems to be up to date with the current evolutions and studies.

I'll be completely honest about what is entirely a personal matter (something which I usually avoid doing): It seems like you're interested in creating a fantasy about who you think I am, and having a personality clash with that fantasy. Ok. I'm not at all interested in this sort of interaction, so please leave me out of it. Please try to limit your interactions with me to exchanges of ideas; if this is impossible, then please limit them completely. Thank you.


Democracy is a form of goverment that will NOT survive in the long run, if it was that superior why did it not take over other forms of goverment when the greeks introduced it thousands of years ago?

This is a great example of your fantasizing. I haven't said a word about my feelings of democracy. You seem to have imagined up a complete set of beliefs on every issue imaginable based solely on my refutation that Bush is legislating a draft. Please recognize this fantasy as a product of your mind rather than mine, and treat it appropriately.

[BlueTravesty]

Originally posted by blooming lotus

Bush has uge stakes in illumanti and just happens to [I]own/I] a big hare of oil stock in IraQ...what a mf coincedence.......I also find it just a little intersting that bush's family owns both weaopons trade market in the us and one of the only anti-virus pharmecuetical businesses for "new-aged" bio-chem disease ........screw Bush and screw his uneducated supporters!!!!!..............Ps...speaking of mind - beams...did you know the ussr is leading the field in research of higher conciousness and "extra-sensory " perception...like audio-kinetics.....telekenisis and esp????....these folks have conducted tests for several decades and if you don't have the info or consider yourself a sceptic because you've nver heard and considered the facts........admit it...you are in need of more information...therefore your perception of life is based on judgment of information you just don't have... :eek: :eek: .......................WTF????????

Ps....how many folks here are aware 89 and call me mad or just consider the facts)...that wih tidays' technology, they have satellites that can can zoom into your very private room and photograph and enlarge the fly that landed on your desk whie you were screwing your secratary????? dead set...and my Iq is nearly 25 points above theirs.....so ...understand or not...what dio I perceive ??????

I know.......I know...uneducated , unthinking joe says jack.....you're off your head right????? ..but to the thinking audience..what do you say????????..i've read several "secret docs" my hacker little bro has shoved down my throat, coupled with my own research..........and you thought you were aware of the world?????????

whachya you got????????

I may be uneducated, and I'll give you "unthinking" because I'm really not sure how that could be used as an adjective, and my personal hygeine may be questionable (oh wait, that wasn't in your post...) but do NOT CALL ME A BUSH SUPPORTER!

Look, just because I don't believe in conspiracy THEORY x, y, and z, it doesn't necessarily follow that I'm a supporter of Bush, and the fact that you seem to think so only shows the error of letting crude stereotypes guide one's thinking. To tell you the truth, I'm really apathetic about the guy. Bush is inept as all get-out, and has no grasp of diplomacy, and the way the Iraq war was carried out was a disaster. I don't support the guy, and I don't support the "alternatives." I think John Kerry is neither worse nor better an alternative than Bush. He has shown himself to be just as overbearing, probably just as stubborn, and lacks even the small, minuscule amount of charisma that Bush has, and that's saying something.

Furthermore, while you are probably more well-educated than I am, that does not necessarily mean that your OPINIONS and CONJECTURE should carry any more weight than anyone else's. I only graduated from High School a few years ago, with a 2.8 average. Go ahead, laugh at that low average all you want, just remember that the High Horse you sit on craps on the ground just like any other, and smells every bit as bad as the Low Mule I'm on (I'm speaking figuratively of course.)

The fact is, neither your education nor your "Hacker Bro's Top Secret Documents" necessarily make your statements any more valid, and therefore you speak with no more authority than say, myself. There are plenty of educated persons like yourself that believe as you do, and there are quite a few 8th-grade dropouts that do as well. What does that mean? It means that one's education and intelligence don't necessarily play the vital role on one's conclusions to the extent that everyone tends to assume. Did you graduate with a degree in Political Science? Was your major course of study in international affairs? I'm not saying that ta lack of these degrees takes any away from your right to speak on these issues, I'm just saying the fact that if your education was not in this area, as mine was not, it gives you no more authority in your opinions than mine. Just because one is a Nuclear Physicist does not mean that I would necessarily call him or her to defend me in court, you know? He may be pretty d@mn smart in the area of Nuclear Physics, but it doesn't necesarily mean he/she is also an expert attorney.

So, rather than resorting to a bunch of namecalling and reactionary rage, why not explain to me why your THEORIES OPINIONS and CONJECTURE mean so much more than mine?

This is "uneducated, unthinking joe" signing off.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

I haven't said a word about my feelings of democracy.


You hardly give your own Opinion, but rather seem to take pleasure in pointing out (percevied)) flaws in other people sstatement.

It would be nice if you for once would share your true Opinions and feelings and ANSWER some of the questions put forward to you.

You often take 5% of a post and reply to something you think you read in there, totally ignoring the other 95%.

So WHAT are your feelings on Democracy?? Straight and easy question and I guess you will ignore it and point ome other "flaws" in this post out. Really pathetic,IMHO.

[blooming lotus]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BlueTravesty


I may be uneducated, and I'll give you "unthinking" because I'm really not sure how that could be used as an adjective, and my personal hygeine may be questionable (oh wait, that wasn't in your post...) but do NOT CALL ME A BUSH SUPPORTER!

Look, just because I don't believe in conspiracy THEORY x, y, and z, it doesn't necessarily follow that I'm a supporter of Bush, and the fact that you seem to think so .......


little defencive there...lol....if the shoe fits....

Furthermore, while you are probably more well-educated than I am, that does not necessarily mean that your OPINIONS and CONJECTURE should carry any more weight than anyone else's. I only graduated from High School a few years ago, with a 2.8 average. Go ahead, laugh at that low average all you want, just remember that the High Horse you sit on craps on the ground just like any other, and smells every bit as bad as the Low Mule I'm on (I'm speaking figuratively of course.)

that's silly to assume I think that way, or would ever laugh at someones' misfotunes or short-commings....remember, Im a teacher and a buddhist


The fact is, neither your education nor your "Hacker Bro's Top Secret Documents" necessarily make your statements any more valid, and therefore you speak with no more authority than say, myself. There are plenty of educated persons like yourself that believe as you do, and there are quite a few 8th-grade dropouts that do as well. What does that mean? [B]It means that one's education and intelligence don't necessarily play the vital role on one's conclusions to the extent that everyone tends to assume.

of course their are other factors.......


Did you graduate with a degree in Political Science? Was
your major course of study in international affairs? I'm not saying that ta lack of these degrees takes any away from your right to speak on these issues, I'm just saying the fact that if your education was not in this area, as mine was not, it gives you no more authority in your opinions than mine. Just because one is a Nuclear Physicist does not mean that I would necessarily call him or her to defend me in court, you know? He may be pretty d@mn smart in the area of Nuclear Physics, but it doesn't necesarily mean he/she is also an expert attorney.

Well, since we already decided that educationwas not neccesarily important as far as right to opinion goes...it's irrelevant, but now that you mention it, I did help tutor someone in socially and law degree........


So, rather than resorting to a bunch of namecalling and reactionary rage, why not explain to me why your THEORIES OPINIONS and CONJECTURE mean so much more than mine?


I don't think I called any one any name...what I said...was f*ck Bush and f*ck his supporters ;)

This is "uneducated, unthinking joe" signing off. [/B

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Chris M.

Here is some clarifiaction that you might now be aware off and might help you understand where I am coming from.

1.) A Liberal in the US is bassically the same as a Social-Democrat in Europe.

2.) Joerg Haiders Freedom party is classed as "liberal" even though they are far-right.

3.) Both the Austrian Freedom Party and the US Republican party have very similar motivations and goals but cannot be compared due to the different histories of the countries. Copies for the comparison study can be ordered from the Austrian Press Office.

4.) I have never voted for either a social-democratic, democratic, liberal or far-right party in my life. My choice are the Greens. :D

[ZIM]

"Everybody got a gris-gris"
-Penn & Teller
;)

[ZIM]

Yeah, it won't get REALLY ugly though, until the Lizards find out they've been cut out of the deal. Then Bush will have to use his connections with the Oil Companies (who are evil and satanic, et al.), and that cult known as Haliburton (do I even have to say they're evil? they're a corporation! geez...) to win enough sway with the Illuminati so that they can buy a whole bunch of new, shiny Black Helicopters equipped with Mad-Cow-Disease rays, and assassinate a Kennedy heir in order to demonstrate their power (since the Kennedys are obviously Reptilian, duh.) The sad part is that none of this would have happened if the Grays had just stayed out of it and not used their mind-beams and electrodisruptors to change the outcome of the election!!!!! I understood this, every word, and I *think* I know the sources. If you're into this, seriously consider talking to a competant psychiatrist/counselor. Royal Dragon may be able to direct you to a specialist in Cult Awareness.
No, I won't be dragged into a discussion of this. Sorry.

[BlueTravesty]

Zim, I've read your posts on here, and I know you have a good grasp on sarcasm. Could you really not tell?

As for sources... well, I used to dabble a bit in conspiracy stuff in my formative years, and then realized the futility of it at around age 19. Filled in the gaps with stuff I gleaned from listening to Coast to Coast AM (the show is so amusing... it's almost like what some would describe as "watching a train wreck" though I would have no desire to do this.) And of course, I gotta credit the folks at SomethingAwful for their highlighting hilarious clips from conspiracy message boards on their "Weekend Web" feature.

[Dim Wit Mak]

I was one of the last draftees (October of 1972). The last draft the United States has had ended in April of 1973. Our seemingly endless "committments" made this an inevitable question.

Look at it this way. There is no inside or outside block which will work against a bullet traveling at 3000 per second, but when the ammo runs out we martial artists will have an edge. We will know how to counter a bayonet thrust with a parry and toe snap kick. The stand up type fighters can then finish Akmed off with an axe kick into the laryx and the BJJ guys can just go to an armbar and break the elbow if they are feeling merciful, or send him to paradise to have bliss with the 70 virgins with a wing choke or Shime Waza if they are in a bad mood.

[Dim Wit Mak]

Tony: Thanks for the reply. My service was at Fort Ord and Germany so I never had to deal with prisoners although I thought I might have to tangle with the Bader-Meinhof Gang which was running amok in S. Germany at the time. Thank God you made it home safe. God bless you in all your budo and other pursuits. By the way, I like your "warrior in the garden" quote.

[ZIM]

Originally posted by BlueTravesty
Zim, I've read your posts on here, and I know you have a good grasp on sarcasm. Could you really not tell?

As for sources... well, I used to dabble a bit in conspiracy stuff in my formative years, and then realized the futility of it at around age 19. Filled in the gaps with stuff I gleaned from listening to Coast to Coast AM (the show is so amusing... it's almost like what some would describe as "watching a train wreck" though I would have no desire to do this.) And of course, I gotta credit the folks at SomethingAwful for their highlighting hilarious clips from conspiracy message boards on their "Weekend Web" feature. Wow, you had me seriously worried, there. No, I couldn't tell- I'm not all that familiar with your posts. Sorry for that. I felt I was doing you a favor.

Now that you've cleared it up, it's funny. :p

[blooming lotus]

props to the army dude....luv your work...I once recruited for the Nz army myself but before I was committed to service discovered the beauty of shaolin.....soldier to the core...but it's the point of te fight that mattered in the end................welcome back anyway......

[cerebus]

ROFLMAO!!!! It just gets better and better! BL was a soldier too (on top of being a model, exotic dancer, genius, Ch'an Shaolin student, Dim Mak & Ninjutsu student, able to defeat 350 lb boxers, etc). Wow! BL, you must be at least 100 years old to have done everything you claim! Aren't you just amazin'!:p :p :p :p

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Looks like BL can do more things in a few yrs than most people can do in a lifetime.
:D

If I would compare notes she would beat me definately at the education game though. ;)

I have done many crazy things and been too many places.

[cerebus]

But have you ever been an exotic female dancer / dim mak Ninja? She has you beat there!!:D

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by cerebus
But have you ever been an exotic female dancer / dim mak Ninja? She has you beat there!!:D

Naah, only worked a few nights as a waiter during ladies night.
I still wake up with nightmares from that experience.
:D

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. I can see how that could have both good AND bad points (Good: buncha drunk women gettin' worked up watchin' nekkid dudes. Bad: nekkid dudes.). :D :D :D

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by cerebus
Heh, heh. I can see how that could have both good AND bad points (Good: buncha drunk women gettin' worked up watchin' nekkid dudes. Bad: nekkid dudes.). :D :D :D

Plus, the bruises from getting pinched and about 50 offers from 40+yr old ladies.

But I needed the bucks, a man gotta do what a man gotta do. :D

[The Willow Sword]

I love my country(although i am not proud of how this country became one.[reference to the native peoples already living here that were royally screwed])

I love the people of this country(even though that love is tested everyday with all the BS our government decides to involve us in, and the people who blindly follow it without common sense)

I respect our military(i support whole heartedly the job they have to do, its what they signed up for and i wish them the best and i hope for them a safe return)


I will fight for this country(but i will fight here,,,if we be invaded, i will gladly take up arms and fight on my own ground where i have the advantage, i hope it never comes to that)

I disagree with the notion that we must free the world of its problems, creating more of our own in the process. to some i may not sound patriotic, to some i may sound contradictory,,but i fight on MY terms,,not theirs or yours.

if we secure our borders and we concentrate on OUR issues in THIS country we will be much better off. We will be in a far better position in the world and its leaders.

Proud to be an american, for PEACE,,,TWS

[Meat Shake]

But why the hell would bush focus on problems here when he can bully smaller nations and pretend we dont have any?
:rolleyes:

[Meat Shake]

"BL was a soldier too (on top of being a model, exotic dancer, genius, Ch'an Shaolin student, Dim Mak & Ninjutsu student, able to defeat 350 lb boxers, etc"

Funny that you dont realize that these things are not mutually exclusive of one another, you can easily do all of these things AT THE SAME TIME.
Right now I am a college student, kung fu student, sales representative, studying chinese medicine, party on a regular basis, am a gym rat, and if I felt like it I could go get hooked up with the modeling agency my brother works for. I have plenty of free time.
So dont be an ass, think before you comment on what other people do or dont do.
some of you seem to have taken a pedestal against BL, attempting to take some martial based highground... Its hard to argue with 6 people at once, a few of you are being rather unfair to her.

[Toby]

I don't think I (for one) am being unfair on her. If you have the patience and an hour or so spare, read the "Muscle Basics" thread in the training forum where she 1st went berko. Check out her attitude on that thread, and every thread since. She deserves everything she gets IMHO.

[Vash]

I'm still not convinced that BL is an actual person. To me, it seems that she is someone who is roleplaying.

And if this unfortunate soul is actually a soul, then, I still don't apologize. The high and mighty attitude serves only to donkey punch me in the brown starfish of my nerves.

And that's a bad thing.

[blooming lotus]

ok....so it's a crazy life!


s the truth...........I have been soldier heart since I was raped, kidnapped and faced life and death pending ma ability at 14..........

fortunately, that soldier mentalitly brought me to shaolin.yes, I'm an ex model-dancer-singer....entertainer extraodinaire.but undfortunately I came equipped with morales and have leant instead to shaolin and spreading dharma.................


I really am me and if you don't beleive me I can't do d*ck about that.people that know me understand...............I have had my fiance die 12 yrs ago and to get ovr it got a srious life, perspective and education.............



Ps....I haven't done more than 3 hrs workourt per day in over 2 wks!!! judge that!!!!]












no, don't .had a student seriosly infatuated and as much as killed me thougt it was best not to appear more attractive than was neccessary:o .for real...he needs an unbiased authoritive figure to love and guide and guide him..........understand the morale delimar in this.............did I mention my pet hate was being unable to work out..getting dirty but racking the karma...........a good teacher is a good teacher and I'm your candidate...............wude 1st for sahnga sake..dead set..I'm that real...If i'm your teachewr, and you have an "issue"....it's my first priority.........being a cousellor and a buddhist and all...hate me............I'm just a chick who beleives in ch'an buddhism to her core and stusdies ma because I know no better way to precure health.........just happen to be a teacher and a counsellor, ex-model and drtama queen with the best of thenm.........makes for good detatchment/enlightment potential...........


Ps

:( ...also have crazy Iq ( understanding of our world many peeps aren't privvy to)............................................... ......but happy to share.......ask my students ( 16 - 25 yr olds_ degree and no).....I just wann study gongfu, spread dharma and re-balance some karma....I'm ver7y sweet in real life..........



cries and closes door on way out :( ......................................

[Vash]

. . . I feel like someone just sh!t in my brain.

[Toby]

Roflmao!

You're lucky I wasn't eating when I read that, Vash :mad: :D.

BL - Bravo, bravo! *standing and clapping*.

[Vash]

I'm thirsty.

Anyway, BL, you have a computer. I an almost guarantee you've got some software on said computer that has spellchecker. If you don't, give me an email and I'll send you a copy of Corel. Seriously.

Dang, I'm thirsty. And sleepy.

Seriously though, best troll EVAR.

keep the faith

[cerebus]

And, hey, don't feel too bad BL. Meatshake believes you! :D

[blooming lotus]

I do have spell checker here ( if I can get a screen in english to undertsand where it is) I just don't have time to use it.we're working 10+hrs a day for up to 12 days straight........and local teachers have it worse for less $$$.

anyway, I don't care if you approve, or troll or make ridulous claims.alot of the time, If I can't get info to help my ch'an buddhsim phd efforts, I 'm just glad to share some of what I know.even the best teachers sometimes have to deal with naughty rebels who don't want to learn

[The Willow Sword]

Quoted by Vash.


. . . I feel like someone just sh!t in my brain.


ROFLMAO,,,unfortunately i was drinking tea when i read that after BL's post,,now i am doing yet ANOTHER load of tea stained laundry:eek:


PEACE,,,TWS

[blooming lotus]

peace???........fool your self...oh and thx for the support Mr.compassion.

anyway, I 've been thinking about this watching late night news and Bush has been gearing toward a one world goverment for many many yrs as "secret" documentation proves .dating back to just post cultural rev here in China...........I was a little diirty about this at first and of course theirwould be wars to gain control of each unwilling party intintially...war = death, destruction and suffering etc etc, but I think in being objective we really need to ask the question of motive???.....personal or global objectives....we allknow the guy is privvy to much much more intellegence and information than we have available as general public.but what are unbiased thoughts on this????

also. considered that many yrs ago, around the rule and serious boo boo of Chairman Mao, Russia stepped and offered a hand to Asia in developement.Mao in his conceited over- zealous sense and lack of foresight from technological deprivation, knocked them back and succumbed to American life -stlyle and ecominc security.........usa eyers off china for "progress and financial future " co-dependance for interest of numbers : IE:- if it came down to securining world order Nth Korea would become a serious problem with an army of 200 million, yet if the usa could have China begging mercy, they would have at their disposale an addition 1.3 billion troops ( give or take).................

what if China hooked up with Russia ( who we've gotta adm,it has been very very quiet on the international scene of late so one questions what they're cooking).Russia is another nation with huge technological advance, budget and population..............imagine how different the world would be if Bush was debased way back by China actually accpetiong their invite of assistance, and what wpuld go down now if suddenly China woke up , saw the end and puit time into cultivating relations with the ussr???


crazy stuff international politics, but like it, notice it, or pretend it doesn't exist and effect our daily existance or not, it's part of our reality.

some people change the world, others sit back and watch, and then there are those who never know it's happened. ;)

take care folks

Bl

[unkokusai]

[i] what wpuld go down now if suddenly China woke up , saw the end and puit time into cultivating relations with the ussr???

[/B]

When did the Chinese develop a time machine?

[The Willow Sword]

:rolleyes:

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by unkokusai


When did the Chinese develop a time machine?

Right after the USSR became a beneficient helper of potential rival communist nations, don't you know.

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
anyway, I 've been thinking about this watching late night news and Bush has been gearing toward a one world goverment for many many yrs ...I can't believe I didn't see it before - BL is Kung Lek!

[KC Elbows]

I. Russia needs China more than China needs Russia, the USSR was the worst ally China could have had back then, because the USSR was all about the USSR, and, like the US, used combatant nations to fight their main enemy, the US, and, frankly, China has done better for itself than Russia by being low key during the cold war, enabling them to build up much more slowly than the USSR, but much more stably. The nation still has rampant poverty, but the difference between then and now is rather significant, notwithstanding all those diisidents that occasionally get whacked.

II. George W. Bush has not been planning a one world government for "a long time", because he hasn't even been a political player for that incredibly long. He was drinking. To even say that George Bush the elder was is unimportant, because he's not in power. If you're gonna make a conspiracy theory out of it, **** Cheney was a player during both administrations, so he must be the one working for a one world government, perhaps trying to deplete the world's resources so that he can then control the only remaining source of power, which is dependent on a superconductor that is only produced one place: in the infinitessimally small holes in the center of the arteries closest to his alien heart.

III. Mao tsetung made a lot of bad decisions, but refusing to capitulate to the soviets was not one of them. By not capitulating, China was economically independent of the soviets, something China needed, as supporting the soviets would have reduced China's capacity to modernize. Mao Tsetung was also not technologically deprived. He was most certainly a modern man, if a tyrant. Unlike the soviets, China's satellite states are stable, if tyranies.

IV. The scenario in which China begs the US for mercy is not even close to likely at this point. China's economy is on the rise, China's armies vast, China's influence considerable. This is not the cold war anymore, and we are not in a position to drive China into submission at this juncture. We are dealing with barbarians at the gates; taking on China at the same time as fighting a group making semi-global guerilla warfare on us would be a blunder to say the least.

V. China and Russia make tenuous friends at best. Chinese and russian interests are pretty close to each other, and so the danger of conflict between the two is considerable. Also, Russia's wealth is not what it once was, and China's is growing. Xinjiang is oil rich territory that the chinese have yet to fully exploit, but they move towards exploitation more each day. Russia would gain more from such an alliance than China.

VI. Elvis is dead.

Frankly, I'm more curious what will come of the recent attacks in Saudi Arabia. I sometimes think people find it comforting to see the world as these grand plans carried out over generations when the reality is often that it is merely people doing what they can to stave of the chaos at the moment, as we did using the communists to fight the fascists, then the fundamentalists to fight the communists, and now having to fight for ourselves against circumstances we made to simply make it past the cold war.

Sorry, wrong thread. Didn't mean to bring up stuff found in newspapers.:p :D

[rubthebuddha]

for more info on what kc is talking about, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_split

i gotta say, wikipedia's gotta be the coolest site, next to hsr.

as to a new-world order, i can't see that being bush's goal after watching how bad he ****ed off the rest of the world, particularly the major players in europe. any progress toward an nwo would take far more years to fix than he would have even if re-elected. so many other nations are going to be very leery about cooperating with us on a global level that many fences must be mended before we can get buddy-buddy again.

[blooming lotus]

if I was still here and posting ( :) ) I would twell you that I've read docs pertaining to Illumanti and the dude has had objectives since way back.has had "discussions" and "agreements" with china and as far as the China -russia dependancy........thats my point....china is now gearing to usa / western style standard in trade/technology/medicine/environenmental efforts and standasrdisation in general because of the blue Mao made way back and died beofre he had time to rectify. Usa needs china for dispensable numbers.......china thinks they need the Us, because since that time they have been assimilating to the societal structure and are now in the catch 22....where as if they hooked up with Russia....we'd be talking real human rescource of every facet..............I'd not reply at alll but at the moment in China there's so much on the news that it's hard to ignore..like how india is trying to get in on the picture and get a treatise solidified in return for man power, but education and per/capita ability is not worth more than token acknowledgement and how afghanistan can have "full sovreignity" if they play the bush agaenda.and how pakistan and srael are fast bwecomming assimilated notches and how step by step illumanti is fulfulling its' objectives..............it's our world and you've gotta 've noticed ...........times are changing and so are govermental structures..........



wait a mo..........in saying that though, teaching environmental isues and health , technology, trade etc etc to folks here, some of whom are engineers and It proffesional , therefore folks who will dictate our future societal capabilty, you can't help but notice how barren the earth is beccomming, since 82, they've been "disscussing" how to repair and conservbe damage to natural rescource from prior and current generations........maybe global standardisation really is doing some uni-historical studies, got some stats on Africa, in particular Uganda and ethiopia.seems thx to global efforts those folks will breach proverty this comming year andtheir crops and newly discovered gold rescource will see these people have their most prosperous yr since they hit international spotlight.......there's hope yet;).oh and indias' economy ( you'll be glad to know) is also on the rise..tea crpos are reaping 25% more with expectation forgrowth :D :D


standing corrected......on with Illumanti afterall :cool:

[Kickboxer]

uh what was this topic about again?

[blooming lotus]

lol.I think it was about bush promising troups by means of draft..........I still think what I said is relevant though because ( as callous as this 'll sound) when he runs out of troupers here ,what's he gonna do and why exactly is doing it............

Ps....heard tonight Russia and China are getting friendly........and the plot thickens .................

[The Willow Sword]

Simply Stated: There Wont be a draft in the Spring of '05.

[Kickboxer]

OH DRAFT! There won't be any draft for this war, at all!

[blooming lotus]

you heard folks.it's official, kickboxer says no draft.so mei wenti.no problem...forget we mentioned it :D :cool:

[Kickboxer]

Mr. Norris, can you please speak english first? That would help a lot trying to understand you. :)

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

True there won't be any draft they will simply either:

1.) Re-assign more troops like from South Korea (lets see already sometime in South Korea already + 2yrs in Iraq and MAYBE back to South Korea after that).
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_korea_051704,00.html


Kim, the South Korean official, said it was too early to speculate on whether the troops will return to South Korea after their Iraq mission.
2.) Widen the Army stop-loss program even further(already soldiers are b@tching about that).
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-01-05-army-troops_x.htm
3.) Activate more reservists.
4.) Hope for more volunteers to sign up.

IMHO, even with UN approval and under UN control many countries will be reluctant to supply troops for duty in Iraq.

So far this thread has had much input and opinion, but so far nobody has come up with ideas on HOW to handle the current shortage of US troops. I think the current ratio is for every fighting soldier that are 3 non-fighting soldiers(Drivers, base staff, etc) in the forces, thus only a 1/4 of the deployed troops I think are fighting soldiers.

Draft is one option that can be used to overcome the shortage.
What are the others, are there even any?

Ok, lets discuss the possible solutions.

[Kickboxer]

There are even die-hard conservatives (unwealthy ones of course) who are regretting the current occupation of Iraq, war has already been won.

Maintaining peace is harder, I am sure that is an old truism. So I'd assume it'll be against better judgment of any President this day and age to call upon mandatory drafting of US civillians for a pesky war and tough peace-keeping contract such as this.

Other options: press other countries for troops or lack of funding. :)

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Kickboxer.

100% agree that peace-keeping is a tougher and more demanding job, hence my head off to the U.N. Troops that specialise in that field.

IMHO, peace-keeping also requires a completely different training and skill-set than the current US troops have got.

The way I see it the current Iraqi population is going to be wary of any non-iraqi soldiers stationed over there.

I also think that the coalition forces really dropped the ball when it came to getting the Iraqi security forces(police, etc) up and running so that they could take over on June 30 from the coalition troops.
This I think is a failing that the media & goverments so far have failed to adress.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Kickboxer
There are even die-hard conservatives (unwealthy ones of course) who are regretting the current occupation of Iraq, war has already been won.

Even? :confused: Judging by the publications of The Ludwig von Mises Institute (http://www.mises.org/) and The American Conservative (http://www.amconmag.com/), the die-hard conservatives have been opposed to the war all along. While the advocates of these organizations are not as wealthy as the prominent Democrats, I don't think they're limited to the lower classes.

[Kickboxer]

are most of them oil rich or fall in Donald Trumps category? What do you define lower class? By non-wealthy, I perceive people who make less than 100K a year. Now don't tell me, it was majorly liberals who were war-mongers. But Im sure, you'll manage to. Wealthy conservatives are like seasonal winds, quite opportunistic to be on the popular side.

[Christopher M]

I'm really not sure what you're getting at with this wealth issue at all. It seems like there's people from the full spectrum of SECs at all sides of the political spectrum. So, no, most advocates of TAC or the Mises Institute are not "oil rich" nor "fall in Donald Trump's category."

It was mostly the neoconservatives who were "warmongers" in this instance. Most of the liberals were very against the war. I thought this was well known? :confused:

[blooming lotus]

I don't know that there is a more valid alternative on this one..the mission is what is and below the surface has deeper repercussive action neccessary to execute than wwe can really imagine.there-fore more troops will evntually be required ( short of pulling the illumanti plug, of which Bush has no intention).....consequentially resulting in requirement for troops.reserve or no.it's not enough.even taking into account allied forces...nth Korea for exapmle .when it comes to that.has over 2 or was it 200 million troops.how the hell do you deal with that..you create new treaties and get more allied forces to back you up and offer them some tradeship agreement to coax them their support..........the process is not pretty, but if I'm not mistaken, the ends WILL in fact justify the means..I suggest some good socks, stationary, up physical training and come home in one piece........


conservation touches all demographic and economic division of society..awareness is awareness and to realise the full capacity of the shape of our world and the trends that we are following and recreating daily is to understand. You can't not have an opinion or possible means of soloution.it's called education ..and that's the difference.not what's in your pocket or bank account........

[Kickboxer]

Originally posted by Christopher M
I'm really not sure what you're getting at with this wealth issue at all. It seems like there's people from the full spectrum of SECs at all sides of the political spectrum. So, no, most advocates of TAC or the Mises Institute are not "oil rich" nor "fall in Donald Trump's category."

It was mostly the neoconservatives who were "warmongers" in this instance. Most of the liberals were very against the war. I thought this was well known? :confused:

Nothing much, but I find it rather irritating when you nit-pick people's personal comment and make it the focus of your speculation rather than what's said about this topic - DRAFT. Most of us here do not directly work for the government, so opinions including yours, are purely subjective and based on personal observation.

[Christopher M]

I only replied to what you said. What would you prefer people do?

[Kickboxer]

Albeit, I respect your input, but the real issue here was mandatory Draft, alluding to the rest of my context. The remark about conservatives are relative, I commented based on circle of people I know. It's only supplemental, not the focus of discussion.

However, I'd enjoy reading your reply based on Mr. Norris's rants. :)

[Kickboxer]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
Kickboxer.

100% agree that peace-keeping is a tougher and more demanding job, hence my head off to the U.N. Troops that specialise in that field.

IMHO, peace-keeping also requires a completely different training and skill-set than the current US troops have got.

The way I see it the current Iraqi population is going to be wary of any non-iraqi soldiers stationed over there.

I also think that the coalition forces really dropped the ball when it came to getting the Iraqi security forces(police, etc) up and running so that they could take over on June 30 from the coalition troops.
This I think is a failing that the media & goverments so far have failed to adress.

There aren't too many competent Iraqi soldiers, the current ones will no doubt be chewed up by the terrorists.

However, there are no such thing as peace-keeping soldiers or different sets of trainings. If something imposes a danger, shots are fired. Some soldiers are more jumpy than others.

The plausible solution to this is to import soldiers from countries that are pre-dominantly Islamic and are on Iraq's good side. But that is also improbable, none wants to be cooperative.

Best solution for us, bid farewell. Will it make them like us? Not by a long shot! :D

[cerebus]

Illuminati? BL...........nevermind. :rolleyes:

[Kickboxer]

What is Illuminati? Sounds like a cult of High Elders and Wisemen.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Kickboxer
What is Illuminati? Sounds like a cult of High Elders and Wisemen.

Check for details here:
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/

http://www.illuminati-news.com/index.htm

Also check the "Order of Skull and Bones" in the first link.

Bush and I think most previous presidents and other goverment officials are member of this society.

I think she has been watching too much "Skulls", "Skulls II" & "Skulls III" movies, which are supposedly based on the "Order of Skull and Bones" society at Yale.

Hope this helps.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Kickboxer
However, I'd enjoy reading your reply based on Mr. Norris's rants. :)

Mr. Norris = Blooming Lotus?

If so, then there are some things even I don't dare to touch. :p

[cerebus]

No, Taiji Monkey. Bad Monkey! Don't answer that question!

Blooming Lotus, why don't YOU tell us about the Illuminati. So far as I know, they're just a myth.

[Kickboxer]

Originally posted by Christopher M
Mr. Norris = Blooming Lotus?

If so, then there are some things even I don't dare to touch. :p

Yes, I thought it had a trace of humor in it. After all, s/he decided to quote or call him/herself Chuck Norris in signature.

[Illuminati = Sons of Liberty = Patriots]?

lol... Conspiracy Theory. :D

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by cerebus
No, Taiji Monkey. Bad Monkey! Don't answer that question!


Don't worry I only supplied readily available conspiracy information.

Can't tell you the truth about them, otherwise I would be kicked out.
:D



Blooming Lotus, why don't YOU tell us about the Illuminati. So far as I know, they're just a myth.

Would be interesting to see HER sources for the information.

Maybe she can tell us on which religion their practices are based??

As for the myth comment: Yes and No.
;)

[Kickboxer]

All this chaos, genocide, ethnic cleansing and disaster has a genuine purpose. It is very carefully planned by a few "invisible" men high up in the society, high above any power structure that the ordinary citizen knows about. It is a planned take-over to create a One World Government with those people on top, making the rest of us into their slaves in a Super Socialist State ...!

Oh the humanity! :p

[Christopher M]

Does anyone else find it ironic that these theories situate the European Union as the alternative force against the secret conspirings of a would-be One World Government?

I guess that's not a big step from believing France is the alternative force to empire and arms sales.

[Kickboxer]

Originally posted by Christopher M
Does anyone else find it ironic that these theories situate the European Union as the alternative force against the secret conspirings of a would-be One World Government?

I guess that's not a big step from believing France is the alternative force to empire and arms sales.

Nope, European imperalism has always been the leading force. :p

[blooming lotus]

I have no idea what illumantis' supposed religious belief is..great question and at a wild guess I'd probably call scientology.but of course that is strictly a guess.........

before we move on: chuck norris used some insipiring words and I quoted them,end of that affilliation..

as for Illumanti...they may or may not be mythical..my crazy little brother came up with all these documents and used me for a sounding board.............only reason I had even heard that name..but , relevant to this discussion, Illumanti is "alledgedly" a powerful world-wide organisation with bodies of control ranging from trade fractors, to painters and dockers, free-masons, political figures etc etc all gearing towards creating a "one world goverment"..........this organisation has ( again alledgedly) been in operation for many many yrs and has been implementing plans to their one world governemtal means for alot of last century......this has meant talks and agreements , trade-offs etc, with various national governing bodies and the plan is apparently going ahead full throttle...............

as a point of relevance here........George Bush is currently a main actor in this scheme and apparently sees that 1st world chair as possible of bearing fruit during his reign., hence this apparently score or so yrs worth of incomprehensible govermental actions( like wars and international relations , economic and trade focussess......)


I still can't verify the actual validity or existance of any such organisation but knowing my brother and his hacking capabilities coupled with his curiosity of truth, my bet is that there's a good chance they really do exist and corroberating facts of world polictics, trade and trends tells me also that it is more than a little feasible .............

if it's the case they are legit, I would (pending real future view and objective post party establishment) have to support their efforts.................so again..........you do what you have to to get the job done...vbut why are we really doing the job is the question that should be asked.................

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I have no idea what illumantis' supposed religious belief is..great question and at a wild guess I'd probably call scientology.but of course that is strictly a guess...Bwahaha! Classic!

BL, maybe your brother just used to play Deus Ex a lot?

[Kickboxer]

Originally posted by blooming lotus


I still can't verify the actual validity or existance of any such organisation but knowing my brother and his hacking capabilities coupled with his curiosity of truth, my bet is that there's a good chance they really do exist and corroberating facts of world polictics, trade and trends tells me also that it is more than a little feasible .............



Does anyone remember watching crappy movies like Hacker (with Angelina Jolie) and Johnny Mnemonic (Keanu Reeves)? :p

[blooming lotus]

maybe ;)

but on the serious side, I would probably have been more inclined to to consider them fruedulant if they weren't so inllectually mapped out with detail,language, knowledge of history and specialist concepts??/..I dont know.It may be a farse but I'm keeping it mind regardless.

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
maybe ;)

but on the serious side, I would probably have been more inclined to to consider them fruedulant if they weren't so inllectually mapped out with detail,language, knowledge of history and specialist concepts??/..I dont know.It may be a farse but I'm keeping it mind regardless. Lucky I've got my hat (http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html) on. Are you wearing yours, BL? Anyway *hushed whisper*, the Illuminati probably have time to discuss all this stuff at the meetings at Bohemian Grove (http://www.delfin.org/4/leaders.htm) in between sacrificing children. Shhh! They're everywhere. I think 7* is high up in their organisation.

[blooming lotus]

hmmph.................must you always respond like that????????????

annyway.........what was your point again?????


sory tobes,lost me.......still being on ignore and all...................how do you change that?????

[Serpent]

bl, you are such a fukking idiot. If he's on ignore, why did you read and respond to his post?

:rolleyes:

[joedoe]

Toby, Deus Ex rocked. :)

Hmmm the Illuminati eh? One of the great conspiracy theories. Temple Knights anyone? :D

[Toby]

joedoe,
Yeah, Deus Ex was cool. Great plot development. I even started to play through it again a while back, which is rare for me.

Serpent,
Apparently she's been ignoring me for ages. So I don't understand why she would ask me more questions that she can never read the answer to. Don't forget, you're on ignore too so she'll miss your reply as well ;).

[Serpent]

Not with bl's special ignore, where she claims that you're on ignore, but has too much of an ego to actually do it, so she has to still read your posts. After all, you might be talking about her.

;)

[blooming lotus]

no really.most of the time I don't bother...for some reason latelythough, maybe because media is focussed on politics here at the moment, I want to hear all comments.you never know when someone may actually post something with sense.....

as for swearing at me and talking the way you do..I'm so glad you feel so tough on the other end of your key board , 'cause I can guarantee if we were face to face, It'd never happen

[YinYangDagger]

BL - I love you babe, when you come to the USA let me know so we can hook up ;)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
no really.most of the time I don't bother...for some reason latelythough, maybe because media is focussed on politics here at the moment, I want to hear all comments.you never know when someone may actually post something with sense.....

as for swearing at me and talking the way you do..I'm so glad you feel so tough on the other end of your key board , 'cause I can guarantee if we were face to face, It'd never happen
LOL. You really think so? Lady, I'd tell you what a tool you are directly to your face if you started talking sh!t the way you do. I'm not known for my subtlety.

So, more lies exposed then. You claim that people are on ignore and then say, "Well, actually, not at the moment because of the political focus lately." WTF?

:rolleyes:

[Ming Yue]

Lucky I've got my hat on. Are you wearing yours, BL? Anyway *hushed whisper*, the Illuminati probably have time to discuss all this stuff at the meetings at Bohemian Grove in between sacrificing children. Shhh! They're everywhere. I think 7* is high up in their organisation.

BL...

See that quote? Toby left you a nice opening to act, well, friendly, plus a bonus opportunity to make a smart@ss comment about 7*, which I've noticed folks rarely pass up around here. :) You could have had a nice comeback there. Sad that you missed out.

[Serpent]

Yeah, and making a smartass comment about 7* is like shooting a large fish in a small barrell. With a tank. And laser guidance.

So, with your monstrous IQ, bl, you should have had no trouble.

[blooming lotus]

Serpent,

No you wouldn't you see I was a respectful person and if anything we'd probably end up talking rationally about whatever wasn't already obvious...........

as for the wise crack..I guess I thought it was probably was a trite and irrelavant at the time....remember, i teach juvinielles......I'm not above rising above........or letting it slide ...if you need the argument, forgive me for not providing it........whatver..............:rolleyes:

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
No you wouldn't you see I was a respectful person and if anything we'd probably end up talking rationally about whatever wasn't already obvious...Rational? You? You mean, you'd provide evidence to support your arguments and stuff? Uh-huh.

Originally posted by blooming lotus
as for the wise crack..I guess I thought it was probably was a trite and irrelavant at the time....remember, i teach juvinielles......I'm not above rising above........or letting it slide ...if you need the argument, forgive me for not providing it........whatver..............:rolleyes: Don't forget I'm a juvinielle BL, so you can relate to me. Anyway, lots of sense in that last quote from you, as usual.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Serpent,

No you wouldn't you see I was a respectful person and if anything we'd probably end up talking rationally about whatever wasn't already obvious...........

as for the wise crack..I guess I thought it was probably was a trite and irrelavant at the time....remember, i teach juvinielles......I'm not above rising above........or letting it slide ...if you need the argument, forgive me for not providing it........whatver..............:rolleyes:
:confused:

To quote another forum member, who summed it all up beautifully:

I feel like someone just took a sh!t in my brain.

(Or something like that! ;) )

[blooming lotus]

Serpent.......you're 30 and trying to pass yourself off as a juvey? lol...nice try ;)

[Toby]

My name's Toby, not Serpent. Although you're right about the 30 part. But, you always said we're (excluding you, of course) all a bunch of juviveille's behind our computer screens, right?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Serpent.......you're 30 and trying to pass yourself off as a juvey? lol...nice try ;)
WTF? You have no idea how old I am and I'm not trying to pass myself off as anything. That's your department, Miss Boxer Killing Super Modelling Death Touching Ab Training (Etc.) Fool.

[blooming lotus]

lol.....there's a bite to be proud of.......................

thought you'd appreciate that comment :D

[Serpent]

Really, what do you see when you look at your computer screen? It's obviously not the same as everyone else sees.

And why are you avoiding a thread that's actually calling for your attention in its title?