Shaolin-Do would choke Royce out

[PHILBERT]

ALRIGHT FOLKS, I finally did it. I finally went to the Shaolin-Do school in my area to watch. This is going to be a 2 part post, covering Monday and then Wednesday. The first post is Monday. Second will be Wednesday.

I just attended a Shaolin-Do school this evening to observe how they train. I never held Shaolin-Do in high regard, mainly being a bias because of there shady history (Insert Chewbacca reference here). However, being that I took a month off of Wing Chun do to college, I decided to attend the class tonight to see how they train.

The best thing there was the jailbait hot blonde with the flat stomach who is still in high school. BTW, I'm 20.

Now for the stuff I saw in ONE hour (I arrived over a half hour after class began).

I saw a Baguazhang form, 2 Monkey forms including one with ground fighting, a Drunken form, some other hand forms I have no idea what they were, a Sai form, a Staff form, and 2 sword forms.

Baguazhang form: Not being a practioner of Baguazhang, I shouldn't disect the form. However, this stuff sucked big time. One guy had his hand backwards from the other guy doing the form. The walking the circle was way off, there was no "rooting" to the ground, and the footwork was just **** poor. The instructor said that usually by the time you hit black belt, you should have 1/3 of the Baguazhang form, then by 2nd black, another 1/3. Well one guy was gonna be testing for his blackbelt in 4 months, and I can tell you he has alot of work to do. But he was the one who had his hands right, but he still was sucky in the footwork.

Monkey form 1: This is the one with the ground fighting. Lot's of rolling, jumping, etc. Had some Fukien Ground Boxing in it as well. Somewhat impressed for at least having a little ground fighting, however the fighting was against a standing opponent and not a grappler.

Monkey form 2: All standing. Somewhat impressive, at least by flashiness. He said it wasn't True Monkey Kung Fu (what is in there system?) but something called White Monkey. Also, you have to learn the 8 Drunken Immortals before you learn Monkey.

Drunken form: He said that there weren't alot of application to this form. So whats the point? A form is to show applications and train you. Not to look pretty. 2 of the guys doing it were mediocre, but the instructor seemed to be really into it.

Sword form 1: I swear to God, twice in the form they stopped and held the arms up as if they were about to scream "I HAVE THE POWER!"

Sword form 2: I think this was funnier than the first one. The guys looked like they were doing the tango with the sword, it was upside down and they held it like you hold a female when dancing. Also, several times they would grab there own blade, and even throw the sword in the air and catch it after it twirled.

Staff form: Very Chinese/Japanese hybrid with more Chinese. There was alot of more jabbing that is seen more in Chinese styles, then they'd quickly slide the hands down and swing it to hit with both ends of the staff like you'd see in more Japanese forms.

Sai form: Can we say Karate? He said after class there was a Sai in China that one tong bent backwards and went down the arm and wrapped around it. Um...sounds cool? But they guy kept doing the handle hits seen in Karate, where you chamber the strikes while leaning forward. Again looked like a Japanese/Chinese hybrid with much more Japanese to it.

I know I saw more forms, but watching these guys and gals do 12 forms in 60 minutes really just messes with the brain and they kind of clump together.

The instructor said he has over a dozen years of Shuai Chiao training. If he does, wtf is he doing in Shaolin-Do? He seemed pretty cool and might have an idea how to fight (especially involving throws), but put him against a good grappler and I think he'd get owned. His students sure as hell would. There were 2 brown belts there, one who was testing in a few months. The jailbait girl didn't even have a belt on.

Jailbait girl also was doing her stuff all wrong and the insturcot wasn't doing alot to correct it. The guy formed a Leopad Palm and called it the Tiger Palm. I wanted to scream out "Bullcrap! That's a Leopad Palm! This is a Tiger Palm!" and show him. The girl would do the "Tiger" Palm strike and lean formward, but the thing was, her lead leg would be locked out so she leaned all wrong. She needed to be corrected on this and I really wanted to say "Bend that front leg and sink down into it" even though I never did Hung Gar or Shaolin or something that leads like that. I just know though. Then she pulled out one of the broadswords and walked across the school, dragging it along the ground and sort of did a form, but did it all wrong, which was when they did there form. When she threw a round kick, the leg would be extended from the moment it was thrown, and not wait until it was there to finish it. It was also locked out, and she struck more with the SIDE of her ankle and not her foot. Meaning she didn't turn the hip.

When they did the applications, they'd throw fists that would NEVER hit you. One guy threw one at the other man's stomach and when his arm extended fully, he was about 5 inches from his partner's body, who THEN would do the technique. Or they'd throw a fist, and you would do say a side block so it misses your head. However when they threw the punch, it would already go past your head, so all you did was just raise an arm and not even have to strike.

They did knife fighting and the instructor commented on how they tend to kill one another at the same time. Jesus, that's what I wanna go do. Get in a knife fight and slash my attacker, then get slashed too. Hey, I die, but at least he does too right?

He said they do alot of throws as well, due to his Shuai Chiao training and when they go to tournaments (which I think Shaolin-Do only does Shaolin-Do tournaments? Can we say ATA?) that they'll throw the opponents around and people are all like "Oh that must be such and such's school". Of course I did my best to be impressed.

Another thing that caught me is the guy didn't ask if I ever did martial arts before. Every time I visit a school, it's one of the first questions asked. I was debating to say no training, TKD or 2 and a half years Wing Chun. I decided to say Wing Chun if he asked. He never did.

He also said his school focuses alot on application and little on forms, while some other schools have very pretty forms, but suck at fighting. When I walked in, I saw alot of forms.

So all in all it was pretty crummy. I can now safely say that I think Shaolin-Do is not great, and rather pretty crappy and can't get the "Oh, you've never been there so don't judge it!" from Shaolin-Do students. I've now seen it first hand.

In the end, I paid more attention to the students. After all, if you want to know how good an instructor is, look at his students. And the 2 brown belts sucked.

The instructor invited me back Wednesday, which I will probably attend just to look at the hot blonde again. Since she seems to be new, her and I will probably train there together. I just wanna have the chance to flirt with her, and find out if she is 16, 17 or 18. And try Shaolin-Do first hand. But mainly the blonde.

[IronFist]

Well given that today is Wednesday, does that mean we're waiting on the Wednesday part now?

Good review, btw.

[Starchaser107]

sounds legal to me..
well at least in my country
if you said 14 i'd have been worried though.
congrats on trying to be objective , looking forward to hearing the part 2

yeah and
what iron fist just said as well

[joedoe]

Interesting to hear from someone who has visited an SD school. I was planning to visit the school that opened in Australia when I was last in the area but unfortunately didn't have time.

With respect to the sai, I know at least one Chinese art that has it. While the form flows a lot more than your 'typical karate kata' a lot of the techniques are similar - after all, how many different things can you do with a sai? :)

[PHILBERT]

Tonight I returned to the Shaolin-Do class, this time to try a free class and see how it is.

JAIL BAIT WASN'T THERE! NOOOOOOOO!!! :( :( :( :(

So it already started off bad. :(

Now, after we did the bow in, we did your basic leg stretches, totally avoiding upper body. Then we got together to do some pad work. The 2 brown belts from Monday got together, and I got with the instructor. BTW, I think he is a 2nd degree black belt.

First thing we did was a straight thrusting kick. When he delievered the kick with his rear leg, he seemed to have some power, however his front leg wasn't all that strong. I looked over at the brown belts and saw them doing the exercise, but kicking with the BALL of the foot, and not the heel, so if they put power in it, they could damage the foot. I then got to throw the kick. Now, being Wing Chun, I have an understanding on how to throw a thrusting kick right? Well, on several occasions, I managed to push the instructor back using my FRONT foot with the amount of power he used with his back foot. When I threw it with my back foot, I was knocking him back several steps. I chalked it up to the fact it is one of the primary kicks of Wing Chun, so I use it alot.

Next we did a kick that I've never seen before. It is similar to a cresent kick, but it only goes up to about the waste. It is designed for groin shots, but it comes somewhat at an angle. Being I've never done this kick before, I totally sucked at it. The instructor however had some power to it. He said one of his brown belts was really good with this kick. The kick would be deployed if your opponent were standing somewhat at an angle, and was not a front snap kick.

Then we did some hand techniques. One technique was a palm strike towards the midsection. Similar to the palm strike delievered in SLT (After the Tan Jum Gwat Lau), except he liked to use a vertical palm and it wasn't carried through, it was a snap action. This technique however was VERY choreographed, and it often took him several seconds to prepare it. While watching, I thought "If you did this in an actual fight, it would take forever and be uselss". But he delievered some power behind it, designed to hurt you internally. And I could feel it through the pads. However, when I did it, I perfered to do it like it is done in SLT towards the midsection. I did not require any form of choreograph preporation. While my strikes were not pushing him back like his were, mine pretty much felt like they were delievering an effection assault.

Next we did the one/two punch. This guy has a wicked right cross. In fact his right hand was strong even when it was leading with a jab. His left cross was no where near as tough as his right cross. When I did it, I was pretty much just throwing boxing jab/cross attacks. Nothing special here on my part.

Finally we did the "one inch punch" type move. Instead he would punch using the first 2 knuckles, and would put some weight into it to "propell" him. It wasn't THE one inch punch, but it is designed to help create the power in a short distance, just like the one inch punch. I perfered doing it the Wing Tsun way I learned along time ago, and was getting the same results as him without throwing my body behind it. Still, he had some power in this punch.

Then we broke off and he began teaching me something from Mantis. Supposedly it is only taught to instructors, but it helps teach students not to do 1 step sparring, but would lead with 3, 4 or 5, etc type moves in a row. It consisted of a backfist attack to the head, which I blocked using a tan sau, then he moved my hand and thrust a vertical biu tze towards my face, which I blocked with a bong sau, then he moved the bong sau and thrust a right hook/hammer punch to my temple which I blocked with a pak sau, then finally a palm strike to my forehead which I blocked with another bong sau. The brown belts were running around the room doing this one, but kept contact at all times. There were 7 moves in all, but he only showed 4.

Then he showed me some techniques, open sparring. The first consisted of a jab, but was done upside down, so the back of my fist faced the ground. I struck with the first 2 knuckles. I would then come back into a cat stance as if to retreat, throw 2 punches at the same time plus a kick. Then I would do a side kick THEN a straight kick without putting my foot down, close in with the upside down jab. Finally I did a sweeping motion to a leg, followed by a side kick. I did this for a few minutes while they did Baguazhang.

Last thing he showed me was something from a form. VERY Karate looking, but instead of block/punch, you blocked and punched at the same time. Supposedly this "blows peoples minds away" because people aren't use to doing both at the same time. Coming from a Wing Tsun background, I knew what I was doing. I started in a bow stance with my right leg out and left fist. I then brought the left fist back into an overhead block while punching with the right fist. Then I stood back into some other stance, and put my arms in front of my chest as if to block a round kick. Some more weird stuff, but I kept going forward on this. It reminded me of Karate, but I was leaning forward. He said that a Karate master originally taught he students how to block then punch at the same time, because they couldn't get both to work at once. He then died before he taught them both, and no one bothered putting it back together. :rolleyes:

Finally we did some stretches for the hip flexors, bowed and called it a night.

Now, for the Baguazhang. I watched the 3 of them do Baguazhang. The 2 brown belts looked like they were watching a home study course on Baguazhang, lacked rooting, and I don't even study Baguazhang but I could see it was poor. The instructor seemed to have a much better grasp, but even then he came off as maybe a 1-2 year student of Baguazhang would have. How much application he had was beyond me. But the movement itself was very smooth and solid, and very well rooted. I am sure a Baguazhang practioner would notice more errors in it, but being as I don't study it, I couldn't judge him very thoroughly. His students however I could see some major errors in. It honestly looked like they had just watched a Baguazhang tape, and were trying to follow the movements.

Over all the school was definately BETTER than I expected. He didn't go into saying how Shaolin-Do is the best, there was absolutely NO pressure to join, and he was a very polite man. I left feeling his brown belt students were not that good. Both were students of 3 years and the other 3 and a half (him being the one to test soon). The instructor seemed to be able to maybe fair well if in a street confrontation. He knew that people don't go into bow stances and horse stances, etc. He said that they are just used to train the legs and what not, but not to fight in. However, you know the saying if you want to look at how good a teacher is, look to the students? Well, his students were lacking big time in what I saw Monday and tonight. They sure should not be as far as a brown belt in my opinion if they can not even throw a decent front kick.

Would I join this school? Probably not. I would want an instructor who picks away at the things, instead of giving me my belt. These guys looked like they were just handed a belt each time they tested and weren't really taught that the stuff they were doing was inccorect.

I know some people here say it is Karate or Kempo, maybe it is. I don't do Karate or Kempo, but it didn't resemble any Karate I've seen. Some of it probably can work on the street, only if you have the instructor who will show you when you mess up. This guy didn't seem to be doing that.

Over all I rate the system higher than what I originally expected. I certainly can't judge the system off of one school, just like I can't judge Wing Chun off the God awful Wing Chun school I visited last year. But this school could be better if the teacher would correct his students more often.

[Starchaser107]

again,
much props for actually going to visit the school and share your experience about this much contested and debated topic of the validity of this style we all "love to hate."

too bad about the chic though:D

would be cool to have some sd ppl comment on it now.

[Radhnoti]

Philbert, first off thanks for giving what I think is a fairly unbiased opinion. At least as unbiased as someone who says, "Over all I rate the system higher than what I originally expected." :D

Seriously though...it blows me away that the brown belts are being shown bagua? You usually start on it at black...I've heard lots of folks say, "Just get the movements down for now (meaning first black), and work on perfecting it from then on...you'll might start "getting it" by 3rd black." Maybe that's just an attitude in my region or something? Brown belt, for me, was WAY too busy a time to have extra forms. And, for most SD students at my school, bagua is pretty difficult to learn. I'm not criticizing the instructor, by the way. Lots of different things get taught out in seminars...and/or I guess it might be a decent idea to let your students get a head-start on something that you figure will take a lot of work. Just giving you a heads-up that it's not typical for brown belts to be working on bagua...

Just curious, how was the sparring?

With respect,

Radhnoti

[PHILBERT]

I have more respect towards the art now, that much I can give. Wheather or not it has authentic Shaolin, and if so how much, I can not give. I also can not say how efficient it would be against say a CLF guy who was a high school wrestler or something.

I had questions for him, such as why Baguzhang, which is founded on Taoist principles if I recall, is used in Shaolin-Do, which is founded on Buddhist principles. But I didn't feel like really getting into it. I wasn't there to discuss, but rather to see the stuff. I only wish I had taken Kempo all those years ago before I moved instead of TKD. Then I might have the ability to see if it is similar.

I also chose to wait until tonight after class to post this. I have no intention of ever returning to train there, but I do not know if the instructor there or maybe a student comes here and is a lurker and does not post. If he were to of seen this before tonight, then he might look at me funny if I appeared in there. So I chose to wait until I was done, that way to be sure I don't return and be turned away or something.

One last question towards the Shaolin people/internal guys. Bodiharma taught the Shaolin monks the Yi Jin Jing (http://store.martialartsmart.net/vidshaolmusc.html) as well as Xi Sui Jing (http://store.martialartsmart.net/pr-gs009.html) exercises, how many movements are there total? I know the Yi Jin Jing has only a handful of movements and can be done in about 10-15 minutes. However, I forgot to mention we did some Qi Gong exercises tonight, and he said they were taught by Bodiharma, and consist of 49 exercises that take 49 breaths per exercise and can be done in around 8 hours. How can this be?

[PHILBERT]

Radhnoti, sorry there, I was typing my last post when you replied.

The instructor did comment though that the Baguazhang is usually not taught that early. I don't know if I posted that in my original post since I typed it up Monday night, hence the major tone change between posts of "this stuff sucks" to "this stuff isn't bad". I do not know how long they were doing the Baguazhang, but it seemed the man who was testing soon had a better concept on it. I guess I didn't consider it though that the Baguazhang isn't taught early and it blanked from my mind.

Sadly we didn't do any sparring sparring. He showed me some techniques used in basic sparring. It seemed a mixture of Karate and Kung Fu really, as far as punches go, then foot work. I wish I could of geared up and tried my Wing Chun out against them to see how effective it is since both students have about 8 months to a year on me.

One thing the teacher did say though was he called them kata, and that they use the Japanese/Chinese interchangably because of the hiding of the art in Indonesia. He also commented that Grandmaster Sin The' jokingly said that it would be the next generations responsibility to change the words back to Chinese.

[Radhnoti]

We call those the I Ching Ching.
The early ones are like isometric exercises. There are some I've never seen anyone capable of doing, but I've heard JP say that his teacher and his teacher's brother are able to do the ones I thought were just an unattainable goal. I figured they were some kind of test of will/spirit with the side benefit of building your strength/flexibility/balance until I heard they could do them...

:eek:


Edit: We posted around the same time. Thanks for answering my question. Sorry you didn't get to see any sparring. Goes to show the differences between schools, we end practically every class with sparring. Again, I greatly respect your actually going and checking it out. Let me know if I can try to clarify anything you're curious about...like names/terms or whatever.

Take care,

Radhnoti

[IronFist]

Originally posted by PHILBERT
However, I forgot to mention we did some Qi Gong exercises tonight, and he said they were taught by Bodiharma, and consist of 49 exercises that take 49 breaths per exercise and can be done in around 8 hours. How can this be?

:eek:

That's a long exercise.

[PHILBERT]

Radhnoti, yeah, thats what he called it. I forgot what he said. The stuff I did was pretty simple, but there were 45 others I didn't see. The only one I couldn't do is because of my back. Other than the knife stuff I witnessed Monday, I didn't get to see any sparring. Wish I could of though.

Iron Fist, he said that students usually do them every morning 7 days a week, 7 per day. After all, 8 hours is nothing to a monk who has nothing else to do. :p

Edit:
One critical thing I forgot to mention in either of my posts was the uniform. Neither the instructor OR the student wore a full gi type uniform, or went barefoot. The instructor was wearing all black, black gi pants, and the black belt with a black t-shirt that had a Shaolin-Do logo and on the back read Year of the Monkey. The students wore white pants, white shirts and the standard Judo/Karate/JJ/BJJ belts that you see. We trained in shoes as well, not slippers.

I have a really *strong* feeling that this instructor specializes in monkey stuff more. Like I commented earlier, they did 2 Monkey forms and 1 drunken form, and tonight he talked alot about drunken after class (as well as crane and stuff). Don't some schools have instructors who usually stick to one animal? Hence why some schools have like 4 or 5 teachers, that way a student has different animals to choose from once he/she had decided.

[Fred Sanford]

this has gone on long enuff

shaolin-do is a bad fcuking joke. what a bunch of losers.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

so what kind of intensity was this anyway? how many reps of the jab/cross? kicks? any kind of physical workout (press ups etc)

from what you've said, it sounds pretty bad. forms mean jack. I can do a good kata or form or whatever, but it is by no means indicitive of my skill as a fighter. what physical condition were the higher ranks in?

You should of asked him when they do sparring and asked if you could have a go. thats where you'd learn the most about its effectiveness, even if it is your average shaolin do foot tag sparring.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by PHILBERT

Baguazhang form: Not being a practioner of Baguazhang, I shouldn't disect the form. However, this stuff sucked big time. One guy had his hand backwards from the other guy doing the form. The walking the circle was way off, there was no "rooting" to the ground, and the footwork was just **** poor. The instructor said that usually by the time you hit black belt, you should have 1/3 of the Baguazhang form, then by 2nd black, another 1/3. Well one guy was gonna be testing for his blackbelt in 4 months, and I can tell you he has alot of work to do. But he was the one who had his hands right, but he still was sucky in the footwork.



I've seen different SD schools step differently during this form, and most of it has been what my teachers would call incorrect, but it's not my place to correct them. I will say that someone testing for black has enough on their plate to worry about BaGua. It's nice to introduce it to them so they can work on their circle walk, but expecting them to know 1/3 of the form by black is silly. Let them focus on the basics. Also you are supposed to know the entire form by the time you are 2nd black so I'm not sure what this teacher is talking about.



Originally posted by PHILBERT

Monkey form 1: This is the one with the ground fighting. Lot's of rolling, jumping, etc. Had some Fukien Ground Boxing in it as well. Somewhat impressed for at least having a little ground fighting, however the fighting was against a standing opponent and not a grappler.

Monkey form 2: All standing. Somewhat impressive, at least by flashiness. He said it wasn't True Monkey Kung Fu (what is in there system?) but something called White Monkey. Also, you have to learn the 8 Drunken Immortals before you learn Monkey.




Don't know any monkey forms just some monkey training and the Hsing-Ie monkey from the 12 animals so I can't really comment.


Originally posted by PHILBERT


Drunken form: He said that there weren't alot of application to this form. So whats the point? A form is to show applications and train you. Not to look pretty. 2 of the guys doing it were mediocre, but the instructor seemed to be really into it.




I agree if he doesn't know the applications, or thinks that the form doesn't have any, then he shouldn't be training in it. It was probably "Crazy Mad Drunk" which is full of good applications if you take the time to pull them out.


Originally posted by PHILBERT


Sword form 1: I swear to God, twice in the form they stopped and held the arms up as if they were about to scream "I HAVE THE POWER!"

Sword form 2: I think this was funnier than the first one. The guys looked like they were doing the tango with the sword, it was upside down and they held it like you hold a female when dancing. Also, several times they would grab there own blade, and even throw the sword in the air and catch it after it twirled.



Dao or Jian? I only know one dao form and it doesn't pose like that. Heck, come to think of it the three Jian forms I know don't pose like that either so I'm not sure. If it was dao, they were probably doing drunken dao and Green Dragon Dao. I don't know these forms so I can't really comment on it unless I saw them doing it.


Originally posted by PHILBERT

Staff form: Very Chinese/Japanese hybrid with more Chinese. There was alot of more jabbing that is seen more in Chinese styles, then they'd quickly slide the hands down and swing it to hit with both ends of the staff like you'd see in more Japanese forms.



Sounds like our form. See Kung Tao threads. :D


Originally posted by PHILBERT


Sai form: Can we say Karate? He said after class there was a Sai in China that one tong bent backwards and went down the arm and wrapped around it. Um...sounds cool? But they guy kept doing the handle hits seen in Karate, where you chamber the strikes while leaning forward. Again looked like a Japanese/Chinese hybrid with much more Japanese to it.



Sounds like us. See Kung Tao and Sai in China threads. :D


Originally posted by PHILBERT



He said they do alot of throws as well, due to his Shuai Chiao training and when they go to tournaments (which I think Shaolin-Do only does Shaolin-Do tournaments? Can we say ATA?)

Some do. We have an open tournament once a year.




Originally posted by PHILBERT

He also said his school focuses alot on application and little on forms, while some other schools have very pretty forms, but suck at fighting. When I walked in, I saw alot of forms.

Yep. Most SD schools do more forms then applications. You can learn to fight and apply them, but you have to take the time. Some do and some don't, but they are there.





Originally posted by PHILBERT

So all in all it was pretty crummy.

Honest report Philbert. I wish I lived closer to Texas so I could train with you and the hot blonde! :p

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by PHILBERT


Next we did a kick that I've never seen before. It is similar to a cresent kick, but it only goes up to about the waste. It is designed for groin shots, but it comes somewhat at an angle. Being I've never done this kick before, I totally sucked at it. The instructor however had some power to it. He said one of his brown belts was really good with this kick. The kick would be deployed if your opponent were standing somewhat at an angle, and was not a front snap kick.



Sounds like an invert kick. I'm not a big fan, but I've seen some that can use this kick effectively to close and set up a stronger technique.


Originally posted by PHILBERT



Then he showed me some techniques, open sparring. The first consisted of a jab, but was done upside down, so the back of my fist faced the ground. I struck with the first 2 knuckles. I would then come back into a cat stance as if to retreat, throw 2 punches at the same time plus a kick. Then I would do a side kick THEN a straight kick without putting my foot down, close in with the upside down jab. Finally I did a sweeping motion to a leg, followed by a side kick. I did this for a few minutes while they did Baguazhang.



These are sparring techniques 1-4. Some of the very first techniques that are taught to an SD newbie.


Originally posted by PHILBERT


Last thing he showed me was something from a form. VERY Karate looking, but instead of block/punch, you blocked and punched at the same time. Supposedly this "blows peoples minds away" because people aren't use to doing both at the same time. Coming from a Wing Tsun background, I knew what I was doing. I started in a bow stance with my right leg out and left fist. I then brought the left fist back into an overhead block while punching with the right fist. Then I stood back into some other stance, and put my arms in front of my chest as if to block a round kick. Some more weird stuff, but I kept going forward on this. It reminded me of Karate, but I was leaning forward. He said that a Karate master originally taught he students how to block then punch at the same time, because they couldn't get both to work at once. He then died before he taught them both, and no one bothered putting it back together. :rolleyes:



He was showing you short form number 1, but I've never heard his story explaniation before. It's a nice and fundamental concept blocking and striking at the same time and one of the overriding principles of SD, but not a "mind blowing" principle in my opinion. Just sound fundamentals.


Originally posted by PHILBERT


Now, for the Baguazhang. I watched the 3 of them do Baguazhang. The 2 brown belts looked like they were watching a home study course on Baguazhang, lacked rooting, and I don't even study Baguazhang but I could see it was poor. The instructor seemed to have a much better grasp, but even then he came off as maybe a 1-2 year student of Baguazhang would have. How much application he had was beyond me. But the movement itself was very smooth and solid, and very well rooted. I am sure a Baguazhang practioner would notice more errors in it, but being as I don't study it, I couldn't judge him very thoroughly. His students however I could see some major errors in. It honestly looked like they had just watched a Baguazhang tape, and were trying to follow the movements.



I've only known BaGua for 1 to 2 years so your observations of the instructor seemed accurate. The ones in SD that seem to really get it are the ones that have focused on it for several years. One of our highest ups focused on nothing but the basic BaGua form for a couple of years. The danger of a style with so many forms is that you don't focus enough on any single set of fundamentals or principles. You can, but most people don't.




Originally posted by PHILBERT
Over all the school was definately BETTER than I expected.

Would I join this school? Probably not. I would want an instructor who picks away at the things, instead of giving me my belt. These guys looked like they were just handed a belt each time they tested and weren't really taught that the stuff they were doing was inccorect.



This can be a problem, but its a school problem that can occur regardless of style. I don't know what school you visited, or if its a problem at this school, but it is a concern.


Originally posted by PHILBERT

I know some people here say it is Karate or Kempo, maybe it is. I don't do Karate or Kempo, but it didn't resemble any Karate I've seen. Some of it probably can work on the street, only if you have the instructor who will show you when you mess up. This guy didn't seem to be doing that.

Over all I rate the system higher than what I originally expected. I certainly can't judge the system off of one school, just like I can't judge Wing Chun off the God awful Wing Chun school I visited last year. But this school could be better if the teacher would correct his students more often.

I think this is a very fair assesment. Thanks Philbert.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Radhnoti
We call those the I Ching Ching.
The early ones are like isometric exercises. There are some I've never seen anyone capable of doing, but I've heard JP say that his teacher and his teacher's brother are able to do the ones I thought were just an unattainable goal. I figured they were some kind of test of will/spirit with the side benefit of building your strength/flexibility/balance until I heard they could do them...


They are impossible for me, but I've seen Master Kevin Mullins, Master Garry Mullins' youngest son do the impossible postures, but not with 49 breaths. I don't think anyone can do that unelss that's all you worked on. I've been told that if you do all 49 excercises with 49 breaths then it should take all day.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by PHILBERT
Radhnoti, yeah, thats what he called it. I forgot what he said. The stuff I did was pretty simple, but there were 45 others I didn't see. The only one I couldn't do is because of my back. Other than the knife stuff I witnessed Monday, I didn't get to see any sparring. Wish I could of though.

Iron Fist, he said that students usually do them every morning 7 days a week, 7 per day. After all, 8 hours is nothing to a monk who has nothing else to do. :p

Edit:
One critical thing I forgot to mention in either of my posts was the uniform. Neither the instructor OR the student wore a full gi type uniform, or went barefoot. The instructor was wearing all black, black gi pants, and the black belt with a black t-shirt that had a Shaolin-Do logo and on the back read Year of the Monkey. The students wore white pants, white shirts and the standard Judo/Karate/JJ/BJJ belts that you see. We trained in shoes as well, not slippers.

I have a really *strong* feeling that this instructor specializes in monkey stuff more. Like I commented earlier, they did 2 Monkey forms and 1 drunken form, and tonight he talked alot about drunken after class (as well as crane and stuff). Don't some schools have instructors who usually stick to one animal? Hence why some schools have like 4 or 5 teachers, that way a student has different animals to choose from once he/she had decided.

Different teachers focus on differnt things. Mike is a Tiger and Hsing-Ie guy. His brother Kevin likes Crane and Dragon. Their dad loves Hua.

And the uniforms don't really matter. As for the "next generation" changing things back to Chinese terms, that is occuring gradually and it's a point of debate in the SD politico.

Bah, why did this have to be posted this week? Gotta run, but I'll post more later.

[BentMonk]

Philbert - First off, thank you for taking the time to check out a SD school, and giving a first class, balanced review. I am fortunate enough to study at a SD school where the instructors pay close attention to the details. The ability to understand and apply what you learn is our basis for rank advancement, not how well you repeat the movement. We condition hard. Our instructors will not even consider allowing someone to test if their current ability is lacking. JP attends a SD school with very similar attitudes. Unfortunately many people who study MA are impatient. They want to tell all their friends that they are such and such belt/sash color, and know this and that form, and they want to tell them now. When faced with the reality that real MA study is a life long thing, they get impatient and whiny. The problems arise when these attitudes are catered to, often times out of a need to keep the kwoon door open. This is IMO the root source of every mediocre BB and Master in every MA style practiced today. Who cares how much knowledge you have if you cannot apply it?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by BentMonk
JP attends a SD school with very similar attitudes.

I do, but I'm sure you can find students in my school that are weak in some fundamental areas. Heck if you looked hard enough, I'm weak in some fundamental areas. Alls I'm saying is I'm still working on the details and we are still hammering in the fundamentals to our students. These deficiencies should be the exception and not the rule at any good MA school.

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by Fred Sanford
this has gone on long enuff

shaolin-do is a bad fcuking joke. what a bunch of losers.

Well good for you and your view. However, this thread was created to fulfill a promise I made to Judge Pen and some other SD guys to eventually go check out the school. This thread is my review of that school.

Ikken Hisatsu, I only met 3 people, plus the instructor. The instructor was in excellent shape, very muscular, well built guy. Not overweight/fat/out of shape at all. The brown belt who was testing soon was also in good shape from physical appearance. The other brown belt was an older gentleman, in his late 30s to early 40s probably, and while still in good shape for his age, had a little more of a belly (a little being key word here). The girl of course, as mentioned, was in great shape. So all in all, physically looking they looked fine. Some schools do not allow open sparring right off the bat. Plus, being a "white belt" so to speak, they brown belts would spar at my level. When 2 people spar, they must spar at the lower belts level, so no throws would be used.

Judge Pen, yeah, one of the forms was called green dragon, the second form they did. Both forms were using the Chinese Broadsword, not a straight sword.

Ok let me post this cause its thundering outside and I dont need the power to go off and to erase everything. I'll start typing more in a moment.

[PHILBERT]

Alright, the power didn't go out.

The school I went to use to be the Arlington school, but its now in Grand Prairie. The instructor I met was named Craig Sadler, a 2nd degree black belt. http://www.ntshaolin.com/ I can't visit the site, it seems to be down. There was another instructor, but he wasn't there this week because he is a coach, and they had a track thing or something.

[YinYangDagger]

As an Ex-Shaolin do student, I will admit some of the fighting techniques are quite useful. Don't care much for the history, but I agree with Philbert that IF an instructor/sensei/shifu would teach someone to use the techniques correctly they may work.

Me personally I still practice the Tiger form I learned there, I really enjoy it, and if you have prior experience you can pull some pretty bad a$$ moves from the form. Plus it's a darn good conditioning tool if you do the stances correct and low like you're supposed to. If you hang around long enough Philbert you would learn the Tiger form at Yellow belt.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[PHILBERT]

YinYangDagger, no thanks, I do Wing Chun on Monday/Wednesday and don't feel like dropping $60 to learn the form. Besides, odds are I can go buy a Hung Gar tape or something that has a Tiger form on it. Or just download something.

[Judge Pen]

We talked about this in PM, YYD, but I think there are some very good applicaitons out of the SD forms, and Lord knows if you practice them all the way they are supposed to be done you will be in great shape, but most students get caught up in just learning a new form without really focusing on the ones they have.

Philbert, thanks for checking out a school and being fair and honest with your report.

[YinYangDagger]

That's cool Philbert, I was under the impression you were going to stay to get a chance with the jailbait girl :D

Nothing wrong with WC, keep it up.

[JMantisSmurf]

hey philbert,

im a seven star student in dallas
was wondering what your style is and where your school is located. same with this sd place

there is another one is austin that the boards were talking about earlier.

my sifu say he thinks he knows those guys

so any SD guys in austin write me back and ask your sifu if he knows/knew a seven star sifu named Jeff Hughs

JMS

[PHILBERT]

This school is located in Grand Prairie. I myself study under Sifu Steve Cottrell in Fort Worth, alongside both BeiTangLang (though he is in the Mantis class) and Sandman2[Wing Chun], both moderators on this site.

[wdl]

I pretty much just wanted to say thank you for going and giving a no BS, honest evaluation. Seriously, those are hard to come by. Generally I try to stay out of the SD debates online, but I'm getting sucked into them more and more. :D


I've seen students from Texas fight and compete several times at tourney's in Kentucky and our's here in Tennessee. I fought one from Texas last year in Kentucky and two from D.C. that are under an instructor from Texas. The two from D.C. were good fighters, the other one wasn't. Some of them fight and compete well, some of them don't, pretty much like any other school. What you saw out of the brown belts is typical of some SD schools, particularly in Texas. Some students seem to shortcut technique for speed. Even the lower rank forms(white-green) are done at what seems to me to be a break neck pace by some. Although I can't say too much, I'm just 3rd brown, I work on technique constantly. From what I've seen, I don't think the power and technique issues get straighted out there until about 2nd black. Maybe it's because Hsing-I is taught as rank advancement at 2nd so they get in the habit of rooting before an attack and it helps their technique all the way around.

The invert kick as JP was mentioning can be nasty once speed and power gets developed with it. Groin shots are legal so depending on the fighter you see it thrown alot sometimes. Very effective in the lower rank point sparring because of it's quickness and short travel distance. Much more effective in non-stop to setup combos to lead powerful technique. Extremely effective on the street when the j@ck@ss that's harassing you doesn't have "The Duke" from Wal-Mart or one of those groin daipers(Saw a guy from Texas wear one of those diapers over his Gi pants in Kentucky last fall, I almost died laughing). Some folks here have enough on it to dent a nut cup completely in. I've seen a few break. Pretty much the only time you see them thrown that hard is as a warning shot to lighten up contact after a verbal request doesn't work.

YYD, I'd have to look around.. but swear I think I can find a post wear you said something to the effect of "SD is useless" or maybe it was "SD is useless to me" and now your talking about pulling "bad @$$" moves out of the most basic tiger form we have? Cool! I'm glad to see you don't deny the strength, endurance and technique building that can be had out of our forms when they are done right.

Again, thanks for giving your thoughts straight up and level. I hope more people do what you have done. Honestly, even if they have a totally bad experience, I think it should serve to help SD.

-Will

[Judge Pen]

Hey Will,

good to see you posting here, but there's no way you'll catch my post count on this site(I have too much of a headstart).

Keep training hard and make sure Rob brings my sparring pads to the next test in Morristown!

Oh, I worked out with some Meihua mantis peeps this weekend (great folks btw) and they work the invert kick as well. They called it an "opening door" kick and used it against the leg and groin. Some post here too; had a great time guys!

[Gangsterfist]

One thing that always makes me skeptical about schools teaching animals forms is I think they are not properly doing it.

I know people who used to train, and still train the 7 animals of shaolin. They train hard, and I mean hard with iron body training, qigong, hard physical work outs and conditioning to build those needed attributes to properly execute the animal forms of kung fu. Then on top of that you have to abandon all human emotion and all human thought and become the animal.

Tigers never push their prey away, they are constantly clawing them and pulling them in with strong effective techniques.

Monkeys are play but dangerous and once they hurt you they go back to being playful again.

Mantis is emotionless, still and attacks when it needs to destorying what ever comes in first and climbing its way up its opponet.

Leopards are fast and kill their prey fast and effectively usually bitting and clawing the neck. They climb up trees and haul their prey up with them, so larger predators cannot take their game away. Which does happen, in Africa lions have been known to steal leopards prey from them.

Snakes strike with percision at vital areas of the body and inject their venom into their target. Snakes are also arrogant and know how deadly they are. Almost all other wildlife can feel their intentions and will not cross them. Elephants in Africa will not cross spitting cobras because they can feel the offensive intentions of the cobra. The black mamba is feared amongst all wildlife in africa and is also heavily feared by humans.

I could go on and on about animal behaviors, but I don't want to turn this into some short nature channel novel:D I don't formally train animal boxing but a few of my brothers do, and I happen to know a southern dragon form and practice its techniques in class. I have seen demos put on by schools that claim to teach the animals of shaolin and I see lots of lack of intent in their forms and lots of physical attributes lacking as well. They have no "jing" in their movements and they look to be weak and ineffective. Now, when I watch someone who really knows animal boxing their forms have power and intent of that animal and I know it would hurt if I got hit with that type of technique or strike. I can see and feel it is effective when the right practitioner executes their form.

Just my thoughts...

[wdl]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Hey Will,

good to see you posting here, but there's no way you'll catch my post count on this site(I have too much of a headstart).



Hey JP,

Yeah, your post count is definately out of reach here. It's safe to say I'll never be able to catch it. Almost typed my fingers raw catching you the last time.

If you'll be in Morristown Friday night I'll have Rob bring your pads. I didn't realize you had left them in Rogersville. Or were you hinting you'd be needing them for Rob's test. :D

Were those the mantis practitioners in Nashville you mentioned awhile back?

-Will

[Judge Pen]

I can't make it this Friday, but I'll be there for Rob's test in two weeks.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
One thing that always makes me skeptical about schools teaching animals forms is I think they are not properly doing it.

I know people who used to train, and still train the 7 animals of shaolin. They train hard, and I mean hard with iron body training, qigong, hard physical work outs and conditioning to build those needed attributes to properly execute the animal forms of kung fu. Then on top of that you have to abandon all human emotion and all human thought and become the animal.

Tigers never push their prey away, they are constantly clawing them and pulling them in with strong effective techniques.

Monkeys are play but dangerous and once they hurt you they go back to being playful again.

Mantis is emotionless, still and attacks when it needs to destorying what ever comes in first and climbing its way up its opponet.

Leopards are fast and kill their prey fast and effectively usually bitting and clawing the neck. They climb up trees and haul their prey up with them, so larger predators cannot take their game away. Which does happen, in Africa lions have been known to steal leopards prey from them.

Snakes strike with percision at vital areas of the body and inject their venom into their target. Snakes are also arrogant and know how deadly they are. Almost all other wildlife can feel their intentions and will not cross them. Elephants in Africa will not cross spitting cobras because they can feel the offensive intentions of the cobra. The black mamba is feared amongst all wildlife in africa and is also heavily feared by humans.

I could go on and on about animal behaviors, but I don't want to turn this into some short nature channel novel:D I don't formally train animal boxing but a few of my brothers do, and I happen to know a southern dragon form and practice its techniques in class. I have seen demos put on by schools that claim to teach the animals of shaolin and I see lots of lack of intent in their forms and lots of physical attributes lacking as well. They have no "jing" in their movements and they look to be weak and ineffective. Now, when I watch someone who really knows animal boxing their forms have power and intent of that animal and I know it would hurt if I got hit with that type of technique or strike. I can see and feel it is effective when the right practitioner executes their form.

Just my thoughts...


That's just silly....

Do you really think that someone would hinge their survival on imitating an animal having no idea if it would work or not?

The martial arts developed as a means of survival and defense not as some kind of interpretive nature dance.

The form/shape/technique came first and then they attributed it to certain animals, elements, theories or other pervasive cultural elements. Not the other way around.

For example, Taiji was never called Taiji until fairly recently in its development. Then someone noticed that it embodied certain elements of Taosim and started calling it Taiji Chuan.





:D

[Gangsterfist]

Why do you think they call tiger boxing, tiger boxing, and crane boxing, crane boxing? It is because you are imitating that animal.

In the most recent IKF Tai Chi Magazine, its dedicated to shaolin completely. The whole issue is just about shaolin. In there, there was an article about a monk who moved to new york and was interviewed about his training and his american students. He goes into some detail about the animal forms, and how you have to abandon human thought and emotion and become the animal you are imitating. He said his students are just now able to start learning animal forms because they have about 3 years of training now. Which means that learning animal boxing in shaolin comes later after first building certain skill sets and attributes.

In the article he is doing some sort of mantis postures. Of course these imitations are adapted to the human body but the basic mechanics are there. When I get home from work I will pick up the magazine and give you more examples of what I am talking about.

[Gangsterfist]

Actually,

Its KungFuMagazine Tai chi, July/August issue 2004. The issue is called Shaolin Kung Fu and has a monk on the cover doing some posture I am not familiar with.

If you turn to page 57 and read an interview with warrior shaolin warrior monk, Lipeng Zhang, you will understand a bit more of what I am saying.

Here is an excerpt from the interview:

...To really do animal forms correctly, you need to understand the yin and yang aspects you mentioned. In other words you are (obviously) a human being. But you have to become the animal of the form. Anyone can bend their two fingers like a mantis and say they are doing mantis but how about the legs and eyes? Those two fingers are also lethal weapons when used correctly. You have to force yourself to go low in Mantis, just like you have to make your stomach and heart papitate differently when you do tiger or leopard. It's not just changing the position of your fingers...

This is just one example I am sure I could find a lot more if you want more info on it.

[Fu-Pow]

Those guys aren't monks, they're wushu athletes dressed up like monks.

I'm talking about the origin of the techniques themselves.

The techniques predate the names.

There is something like what you are talking about...it's called Saat Hei or Sha Chi....the "killing aura" or "aura of destruction."

It's not "animal specific" though. It should be in all of the forms.

[Brad]

In the article he is doing some sort of mantis postures. Of course these imitations are adapted to the human body but the basic mechanics are there. When I get home from work I will pick up the magazine and give you more examples of what I am talking about.
That's a modern form created for performance and competition. Yes, there's some application because it was created by a traditional mantis master, but practicality takes a back seat to performance. All the Shaolin Temple animal forms I've seen are modern competition/performance forms.

[Gangsterfist]

I have seen my old sifu and a few of my kung fu brothers do the lost track mantis form. It is not as exaggerated as some of the stances in the article, but its still similiar. Also those low stances are good training, they are not for combat.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Also those low stances are good training, they are not for combat.

Generally I agree; however, some applications, such as a takedown or chin na lock will require a swift sinking of the weight and will put you in a lower stance than you would be while striking.

[Gangsterfist]

JP-

Agreed, but a lot of time you are just dropping your weight, its faster than trying to crouch.

[Judge Pen]

I was thinking about stepping back into a low bow and arrow stance while pulling the wrist and elbow, for example.

[red5angel]

but put him against a good grappler and I think he'd get owned.

Where do I get a petition started stating that people can't make comments like this on the forum anymore? Seriously, what sort of comment is that - put anyone up against anyone good enough and they'll get owned. Put me up against someone faster, stronger and better trained then me and I'll get owned. No, really, it's true.