what a great counter to the shoot

[WanderingMonk]

http://webpages.charter.net/kwa2/ralphktfo.gif

[PHILBERT]

It was just a lucky shot that he managed to exploit. Anyone who wants to stand on one leg while his opponent shoots in might as well just tap out. I thought at first that Gracie was standing too high, but he caught a knee to the head. Had it of been 1 more second either direction (him faster or slower) it wouldn't of landed that way. Sadly, some Tae Kwon Do and other traditionalists who don't know the difference between there butt and a female dog will think that this is a perfect defense. In a sense, if you do time it right (and that's gotta be some fast legs and perfect timing) a knee to the temple will probably do the trick.

[WanderingMonk]

oh, it is a valid defense if you are as good as that japanese fighter. all "techniques" are valid, but many are only valid for people with great ability and under the right circumstances.

It worked against a Gracie after all. but everyone has a bad day and that was probably Ralph's "bad day".

[FatherDog]

It's a valid move if someone's shot sucks as much as Ralph's. Don't try it against a wrestler.

[Christopher M]

You mean the sprawl he did at the end? Yeah, I hear that works great! :p

[joedoe]

Hang on, how do you know it was a lucky shot? How do you know that he didn't practise that over and over, saw the opportunity and used it? I am the first to accept that it is a low percentage defence that leaves you dangerously open to the shoot, but how do you know that it was luck and not skill?

[Archangel]

Thats a good point Chris, the first knee did not stop him; it wasn't till Gomi sprawled then landed a few more shots. Without that sprawl the fight could have been very different.

[WanderingMonk]

you don't. but, unless he can do this pretty consistently against good fighters, people will claim it was a lucky shot.

I fully endorse it as a valid technique for the Japanese fighter to use under the circumstances.

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by joedoe
Hang on, how do you know it was a lucky shot? How do you know that he didn't practise that over and over, saw the opportunity and used it? I am the first to accept that it is a low percentage defence that leaves you dangerously open to the shoot, but how do you know that it was luck and not skill?

I opened the GIF in animation shop and looked at each frame on the animation. Starting in frame 2, Gracie's opponent BEGAN throwing the kick, while Gracie did not even begin for the take down. He could very much of been stepping in to throw a punch. It isn't until about frame 4-7 that Gracie is obviously doing a take down, and by then, the other guy is already starting the kick because his leg is completely off the ground by then. Around frame 9 or 10 the knee connects to Gracie's head. In fact, it wasn't until the sprawl that really got him. Gracie still was completing the take down when the guy did the sprawl. The entire takedown itself was just poor, he was standing way too high and looked more like what an amateur would do, or someone in a nongrappling class attempted to "mock" the take down to defend against.

It's obvious he is throwing a round kick on purpose, however, he was originally throwing the kick towards Gracie's body and hoping to connect with a shin or ankle. Instead he connected the knee to Gracie's head. Not to mention the knee itself is just poor, you don't throw a knee like that because it lacks alot of power. If he wanted to knee Gracie to take him down, he'd use a straight knee type attack.

[joedoe]

OK, fair enough :)

[Indestructible]

I'll I have to say is, whoever shoots on me is gonna meet mr. knee, and be busy afterwards picking up their teeth!:mad:
































































































































































































Ha Ha, just kidding! Learn to sprawl already!

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by joedoe
OK, fair enough :)

Then again I might be wrong. Maybe he knows what to look for in a leg take down, but even people can fake those. We'd have to see him beat a few more grapplers with that knee before we can determine it. Sometimes it is just plain luck though that lets you beat someone. I congratulate him for seeing the hole and exploiting it.

[joedoe]

Yeah, I thought that as well but since you went to the trouble of examining it frame by frame I figured that I could accept that :)

I guess the other thing that got up my nose a bit is the suggestion that it was only successful because it was a bad shoot (which it probably was, I am no expert) and not because the fighter saw the opportunity and capitalised on it. If the knee had failed and Gracie had gotten the takedown, could we then argue it was lucky because it was a poorly executed knee/kick?

Anyway, it's not really that important in the big scheme of things. ;)

[Asia]

Thats a good point Chris, the first knee did not stop him; it wasn't till Gomi sprawled then landed a few more shots. Without that sprawl the fight could have been very different.

Glad to see some voice of reasoning among you:D

Indestructible you almost had me on that one. :p


A knee to the face has succesfully stopped a shoot enough times to be very valid but it something you don't want to rely on. Sprawl baby sprawl.:D

Oh and Two gracies beaten by Japanese fighters!:eek: Guess the Japanese are tired of the Gracies using them to fatten their records.:D

[PHILBERT]

Asia, 2 Japanese in a few days. Last time I checked, the number was a little higher thanks to Sakuraba and some others :p

joedoe, then it would be a bad shoot with a bad defense and a lucky move to take him down. :p Then Gracie would of been the lucky one had it of worked. Guess he needs to work on it.

[ShaolinTiger00]

All together now!

step 1. SPRAWL!

step 2. CLINCH elbows tight!

step 3. KNEE!

Step 4. Dirty Boxing until you're satisfied..

[Asia]

Originally posted by PHILBERT
Asia, 2 Japanese in a few days. Last time I checked, the number was a little higher thanks to Sakuraba and some others :p

I know what you mean. With Sak you still have nutriders calling him a fluke and (my favorite line) "He didn't really beat all of them." There is no way in hell anyone with sense can dispute Gomi and Sudos victories.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by PHILBERT


I opened the GIF in animation shop and looked at each frame on the animation. Starting in frame 2... Still not to say that Gomi hadn't guessed Gracie's shoot coming in. Just because we can't see it doesn't mean it wasn't telegraphed from where Gomi was standing... esp seeing as he fought in Shooto before for 5 years, and has had more than his fair share of fighting good shooters.

And no I'm not saying that it's a failsafe technique to stop a shoot, nor that it was a good shoot (tho it could have been a bad shoot cos he got kneed in the head on the way in, and it is possible, tho not so common that this had broken his stride) but Gomi has enough experience for us to not just pass it off.

[Phrost]

Ralph Gracie has a bad habit of rushing in on his opponents. This opponent realized it, and probably drilled that knee half a million times specifically for this encounter.

In general, unless you're gifted with some sort of precognition combined with flawless timing, throwing a knee like that isn't the best idea.

As it's been said, sprawl, then clench, THEN knee. While not as dramatic, it's much more effective with much less risk.

[fa_jing]

*puts on glasses*

He started to kick, Gracie tried to cut him off with a shoot, but by switching on the fly (folding) he was able to use a quicker tool and reach the target first. It's something that he did because even if it failed, he would have his knee and upper thigh between himself and opponent, giving him a chance to escape the grasp.