Mantis108´s fighting clip

[German Bai Lung]

I posted this one for Robert.

Store Fight (http://www.bailung.de/mov/storefight01-1.wmv)

Note: for I got not endlessly transferring space, I will brake the link down if I recognize that someone posted this one at some other forum! So please: let us have the insight here and keep the Clip here in this forum!


For Macintosh Users (like Kevin/Tainan): download the Clip on the Harddisc and get the Windows Media Player from Microsofts Website! It´s free and there is a version for Mac also!

[Tainan Mantis]

What do I need to download to view this?
All I get is a screen full of nonsense characters.

[B.Tunks]

Very nice!!! You've got skills.

Bt

[Oso]

Tainan, you're on a mac right?

that may be the problem as it is a window media file

[sayloc]

Looks very nice!

Good hands.

If I may ask one question? Does your style teach attacks to the lower level (to the legs)? I saw a few techniques there that looked tlike leg jams but there also seems to be alot of misssed oppotunities.

Thanks for posting the video

[puja]

Nice fight, mantis108 :)

tainan mantis,
if you're on a mac you'll have sure problems watching the clip as it is a streaming winows media file. Actually I'm trying to recode it at the moment so if you want I can mail or upload it to you. Or I can send it to German Bai Lung so that he can put it online additional to or instead of the wmv-file.

Best regards,

puja

[mantis108]

Hi Guys and Gals(?),

First and foremost, a thousand thanks to Jochen from the bottom of my heart! You are the best. :)

Brendan, Bro, you are far too kind and letting me off easy. :D

I am really looking forward for your feed backs. So Brendan , Oso please let's have your thoughts. I know Kevin will need a bit more time to figure out the download. (Thanks Puja for the help).

One of the purpose of the clip is to have it as a conversation piece so that we can have more mantis technical on the go.

Hi Sayloc,

Thanks for the kind words and the question. Yes, we don't do a lot of high kicks or kicks at this point. My mentors such as Roger Law in the styles actually has some very impressive kick. He can kick a Thai bananas and folds it in a deep v shape. Frankly I don't have that kind of power. Anyway we still need a lot of work on the body method so that effects of the kicks would be less severe through absorbing impact and all as we don't train sparring with gear that much. The student basically have about 9 months of training. He was light sparring from the second day mostly with the same partner and have move on to full contact in about 6 months of training. But he has sparred a TKD blackbelt (piror to this session) and a Karate brown belt (after this session). This is pretty much the first time he and I go all ranges. So it is really a work in progress. I hear you on the missing oppotunity. We are taking steps to tighten things. so hopefully in the near future we will have some more exciting footage for our mantis community.

BTW, the method we used to start light sparring is the hook grab pluck drill.

Warm regards to all,

Robert (Mantis108)

[puja]

You're welcome Robert.
Finally got the clip recoded properly. Unfortunatly I couldn't get it as small as the original file with the tools I have here. Somehow I can't manage to get control over the bitrate (and with that filesize). Sorry.
I can provide you now with either a DivX-coded file sized 15.5 MB or a 16.2 MB MPEG1-coded file. So if anybody needs one of these files feel free to get in contact with me.

best regards,

puja

[sayloc]

I know what you mean 108.

We just added the kicking to the lower levels a couple of years ago with the san shou. It makes things alot different! We completly gave up the light contact stuff, we still do some light drills though . Believe it or not we have much less injury with the moderate to full contact than with the light contact.

Only problem is you cant do the intricate mantis traps, grabs and precision striking with the gloves. We still use light contact drills for those ,so they wont be lost


have a great day

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
What do I need to download to view this?
All I get is a screen full of nonsense characters.

If my memory serves, press command (the key that looks like a butterfly on your keyboard) and click with the single button mouse (what an unholy contraption) on the link. That should open up a side menu and select click "save link target". That will save the wmv file for you to your hard drive.

After downloading the file, you need the media player but I believe you already got that. so, you should be able to play it.

[German Bai Lung]

Hi Robert,

Well, there are indeed a lot of very good skills in this clip! I like the background a lot! Looks like a good Hong Kong Movie ... ;)

So now my thoughts: missed oppotunities: okay, there are some, but that could (even when it not should) happen to all of us.
I would put more training on timing and "eye for the situation". Your student (man, for 9 months he is great!) did a lot of jabs and punches in the air. Not for faking just for doing so! Thats a waste of energie and of course a chance for the opponent! And you take the chance! ;)

Another point: the grappling at the end I don´t like so much! After the first three or four actions you got him in a lost position and even your elbow could used for pressure on his neck! So, at this point the fight could be over. Next minutes would be better used for another stand up fight! :D

[Oso]

i think when the hands are tied up some short front kicks could be used like:

get his hands up

kick him in the jimmy

then hit him in the head when the hands drop.

the ol' hi - lo - hi...isn't there a something or another saying for that in classic mantis strategy.

"If i want to hit you in the head, I will strike to your leg" or some such

ou lou tsai was very nice...i like to crash in with shoulder or hip if i get the arms glued

ground work wasn't too bad for a couple of cma guys ;):D
as the sport guys say "positioning, positioning, positioning"

*edit* meant to say that it should be important to note that it was just light sparring in a video store and you guys were obviously trying not to wreck the place.

on a more specific note about kicking:

:16 you almost pegged the leg with a front kick on the retreat
I really like a good strong posting front kick in a situation like
that. stop em as you fade back then crash back in on them

:50 really good opportunity for the head throw...except for the
video racks


all for now, heading to Nashville to learn Baiyun Tautaou this weekend.....

[mantis108]

Good points being make. I am taking notes and please keep 'em coming. :)

Mantis108

[SevenStar]

I must have an old codec or something - I can't view it :(. I'll try from work on tuesday.

[German Bai Lung]

Well, here are some more observations:

The handtechniques from Robert are very fast and accurate. Well done. So for that, his student did his best not to be overrun.

But there could have been more kicks like Chyun sam toi (straight kick) and of course some Jau toi (sweeps). In fact I would have done some throws with the front leg instead of doing the grappling and groundfighting. But ok: there was just hard floor and no saveties at all!

Maybe when you next time fighting you better wear some leg saveties and groin guards and show some more kicks. :rolleyes:

I absolutly appreciate your willingness to share that piece of very hard work with us! Thank you Robert!

[mantis108]

I really appreciate yours, Oso as well as others' comments alot.

I think you and Oso both pointed out some important observations such as the venue and no safty gear involved. I believe this clip could show that this is the underpinning of Kung Fu. That is to say how to subdue an opponent without seriously harming him/her while minimizing the same danger to yourself. To me that's the real exercize of Kung Fu. That's why you see the almost non climactic finale. ;)

It is not my intention to preach my personal philosophy about fighting on public forum. But the clip would unmistakable show that. It was an oppotunity for me to see how my student and I interact. I have chosen this format:

3 to 5 rounds of 5 mins ea. by means of knock out or submission.

as an essential part of the training for applying Kung Fu. This is not to said we are UFC/NHB hopefuls but to realistically reflect that we aren't ignorant of the martial sports prospects. The groundfight that you saw is about how it would not be a conflicting element that would take away from Kung Fu training. In fact, with the relatively short training time (6-9 months) in training someone to fight with Kung Fu we have IMHO achieve the balance of standup and ground phase.

Without safety and protective gears you will have to know your weakness and strength both physical and emotional. There's simply not much room for mistake. This might not suit the appetite of sports entertainment because it won't be exciting. As I believe that Kung Fu was originally forged without elaborate safety and protective gears, we will remain steadfast on that. This is something that GM Chiu impressed upon me. Personally, I believe the best protective gear is the correct response/action to the threat. That to me is Kung Fu and that sets it apart from any other martial sports activity. To overwhelm an opponent with just and convincing force, it is the ideal - Wu (martial).

As for the technical merits or rather disappointments, I totally understand and appreciate the critics and suggestions. Things that are set out to do are developing the " eye of distance" as GBL has termed it. Building a fight rhythm for my student is one of the pirorities. We are going to work on the kicks, the tie-ups game, throws and takedowns, stand up grappling (Chin Na), etc. Next time, we will or at least try to throw in the finishes. The workload has well cut out for us. I hope that my student and I will have a more intelligent "conversation" next time. This time our hands aren't really talking to each other that well.

The public forums always demand us to back up our claims. I hope this clip has done that to a certain degree. We as TCMA, and in this case Mantis, people aren't just a bunch of people dress in pj's and dance arround looking pretty. In reality, we fight or exercise just as much as any other discipline in martial arts or martial sports. We just express our philosophy in a slightly different manner. To each their own and we respect that.

Thank you for all the comments and please keep them coming.

Sincerely,

Robert Hui

PS, I hope Tainan will charm in soon. Com'n Kevin! :D

[Tainan Mantis]

I have gotten as far as getting the clip to load onto my computer.
But my Media Player 7 won't play it.

A windows media player comes on "the channel does not support the stream format"

[WanderingMonk]

TM,

Check if there's a newer version of media player for Mac. This clip was coded with Microsoft's latest codec. Your player should try to download a new codec, but apparently it isn't.

wm

[B.Tunks]

Hi 108,

I was reluctant to be openly critical in any way because I admire your courage in putting your sparring up for public dissection, but I think i should add just one point. Perhaps in future bouts you might try to make it full contact from the neck down (except of course the groin). Injuries should be minimal, at the worst a broken toe or finger here and there or some bruising or occasional knock-downs through gut shots. I acknowledge your issues with protective gear and that this was a 'feeling-out session but I feel the biggest criticism that could be levelled at the clip is the lack of intensity or contact. I look forward to seeing you two really smashing into each other in the near future! (and maybe just a hint of pain or potential injury)

BT

[Michael Dasargo]

I humbly suggest to be mindful of Martial intent. Without it, power is dissapated and arms are over extended. The arms are an illusion. Bridge, adhere and stick to the opponents center with your body mass by connecting the seven stars (structural alignment). Be mindful of the three speeds, and the three stabilities.

The first attack is to uproot, the second to disrupt, the third is to finish.

As Sunzi teaches, keep the enemy at a state of intellecutal disposition. The opponent can not defend against that which he can not comprehend. This is essential to Mantis Boxing.

Tame the wild horse and the crazy monkey, and you will attain clarity.

-M

[-N-]

Originally posted by Michael Dasargo
[...]Bridge, adhere and stick to the opponents center with your body mass[...]Good advice there.

To overrun the opponent's center is another way.

Mantis108, I saw you used right leg to inside of opponent's right leg (or left leg to inside of opponent's left leg) to control his footwork.

How about following up the right leg to inside right leg step with a left leg inside to opponent's right leg outside step? This takes advantage of your forward momentum, sticks your center right up to his, and gives you options to overrun or to throw your opponent.

N.

[WaDo]

Hello,

I'm just a small student and I surely could be wrong but for me there is to little throwing in the fight. I've learnd to stay on ground and not to jump around. For me a lot of actions in the fight were to soft with no intention to end the fight or to controll the opponent. I would like to know why this video was made did you want to test the new student? What is your opinion about my thoughts?

Best Regards
WaDo

[B.Tunks]

I have to agree on bouncing. I have been taught to never, ever bounce (continuous root breakage) bouncers are the easiest people to throw. However, maybe Taiji Tanglang has an opposing approach (and I am a willing student).

bt

[Oso]

This may be a point for another thread but Brendan is correct.

Intent makes all the difference in the world. And for lack of a better word, 'fear' of that intent.

If you don't spar with intent to at least strike hard then you and your sparring partner aren't even remotely training for the real world.

I've sort of come full circle in my belief. I used to think you could spar medium contact and be ready for the street. No way.

So, put the gear on, experiment (at no mean cost) with equipment till you find something that allows you to utilize mantis hand techniques but still offers some padding. Headgear with a face guard since we like to go to the eyes and with these new lexan type shields everyones protected. And a chest guard. The best recommendation I've gotten so far is for the Fairtex model but I've only been able to afford Macho's new molded one. Wear a good mouthpiece. You'll break it all in and it will get comfortable after a time. I've purchased a couple of different MMA type gloves that work fine. Stay away from the Kempo type gloves, they don't last, or at least the ones from Title ripped up in less than 3 months. A cup of course. If your shins and arms aren't conditioned then just go home ;)

Then you need a regular stable of sparring partners to get comfortable with. Stepping into a ring to go full contact is fine and you are both out to KTFO the other. But, modified full contact where you get to come to class again requires a comfort level and familiarity to pull of succesfully w/o major injury. Bruises and minor breaks come with the territory as BT said. But day to day you need to be able to trust the control of your partner so you don't get maimed.

Have you ever been hit? Hard? Really?

I still remember the first time my hung gar teacher knocked me out: foot to the gut, forearm to the back of the head when I bent over and I woke up w/ grass in my mouth.


This is why I've become a big beleiver in tournament sparring if you can find something besides tag rules. Even if you are the lone kung fu school and all you have access to is some TKD tourney, go do it. Take your students to it and let them compete. It's as close as you'll get to a real stress situation w/o actually being in a fight. Learn the ruleset and adapt for the comp.


ok, that went on forever.....

wish I'd a said this but the Dogbrothers get credit for it I guess

"Higher Consciousness through harder contact"

{All use of the word 'you' is strictly impersonal, not raggin you at all Robert}

[mantis108]

First and foremost, I would as always put a caveat that I do not represent anyone but myself. So to a large degree, you could think of the clip as my individual style that came from a mantis structure. The mantis structure, to be specific, is of my understanding of CCK TCPM. Any shortcoming is definitely mine alone.

GM Chiu brought his style to the public in Macao, Vietnam, and HK. This development differs his style, which is a public one other than a family style. At the time that I was in HK, I don't think he had the intention of crafting someone in his own image. As I have look through some of the printed materials of his teaching that were available to the public during the 70's, I see a consistant theme. That is to say he would teach according to the attribute of the person while basing the structure on his teaching.

Some of the features within his teaching are IMHO not generally found in a lot of the TCMA. For example, 4 way jump (tiao si men) and 4 way punch (da si men), Leap and punch (nau hao sheng feng), etc... When Tainan Mantis visited me I showed these to him and felt those are important training methods as well. These exercises get one moving on the balls of the feet unlike other styles that rather have their stylists rooted. One moves and one strikes. Ideally, one stick and move toward the back of opponent. Being mobile yet ready to develop root in a split of a second. Yes, there are frequent bouncing (a personal thing I might add) yet there are cat like dispositions (perhaps this is missed by some of the critics?) Personally, I am always a believer in "float like a butterfly and sting like a bee".

Not having root and therefore more prone to being takedowns and throws is IMHO a matter of perception. If you have no quarms of falling (as in this case, I fell on my a$$) and you are familiar with the ground range, I don't see that being a problem. In fact, it might just be the edge to capitalize a throw with a counter throw. It is the same as some styles prefer to stay square shouldered with the opponent. The center and the groin becomes more prone to attack. When they are aware of that and steps are taken to remedy that. What fear have they? Of course if the rule book said you lost points on being throw or fall on your bottom (major lost of face), then it's an entirely different story. Here, looking good and scoring points don't apply.

As for martial intent, I think we will have to look at that this way. If martial intent simply means high intensity [re: bone crushing power] and ending the fight within seconds, then it's true that we failed to demonstrate that. Frankly, are all TCMA people strong with their strikes? More power to you if you do. If you don't process that mighty power in your hands, then what? Is there a plan B? This is a sparring session for trying out both standup and ground ranges. My general plan (pun intended) was to go to the ground and go for submission. I wanted to capture the castle intact. Sticking to my plan was the " martial intent" here. Certainly this might not match others' experience in using their Kung Fu. It might not be palatable nor exciting for a lot of people. But the spirit of the exercise is to show that whether one is traditionally trained or not there is no limit to what one can or can not do in CMA. There are very few PM techniques and combos shown in this clip but this was a session for simple and basic techniques. This is what we do every oppotunity that we have in training. I sparr with my students and I have no problem sharing it online just as I would sharing information and opinion that I have on Kung fu. I believe putting myself on the line is giving myself the reality check so that I know I am not climbing a made believe ivory tower. I am glad that many of you have given honest opinions; thus, helped me with the reality check.

With sincere gratitude,

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Very true. Thanks for the input.

You see the flooring in the store. One of my student got hip thrown by a TKD black belt (older style) onto the floor when they sparred. He got the wind knock out of him. 200 pbs of flesh slammed hard on carpet concrete. It's sickenly beautiful but thank God he was in one piece.

Anyway, we will work on the full contact thing.

Warm regards

Robert

[Oso]

Robert,

we all spar light just like you guys were doing. don't mind my rant, please. There's a time and a place for all levels of sparring.

I've just become a sincere beleiver that you have to get past that phase as quickly as possible and really start fighting.

The conundrum is: How soon?

I've heard two different approaches recently.

One where the sifu said he didn't let his students free spar for over a year because he wanted them to move like mantis stylist first.

Another where the sifu taught basic western boxing first so his students had a good simple base to work from and to teach them to hit hard.

Both of these guys are considered experts.

A thought of mine is that style beda mned, a lot of people are coming to us to learn how to fight and protect themselves and we owe it to them to get something workable to them as quickly as possible. It's generally accepted that mantis basics aren't 'basic'.

So, the conundrum appears to be style preservation vs. fighting proficiency at an early phase.

[Oso]

is the store the only place you have to train?




meant to add this bit in to my rant about training gear.

something I just discovered is that for a measly $25 business license, I now have wholesale accounts with Title, AWMA and Century. It makes experimenting with gear somewhat affordable.
Big school operators know this already but I'm just teaching out of a rec center and didn't think I could get a business license until I had my own place, I was wrong.

Puzzle Mats aren't the optimum training surface for throws but for general sparring they work fine and are fairly economical at wholesale cost. I've got a 16.5' x 16.5' sparring area that's 1 3/8" thick for less than $600.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Hi Robert,

The clips show a teacher helping his student, in a playful yet serious way. ;)

My comments:

it seems that you are not really attempting to control the space though footwork with your partner to well.

Once engaged your look very hard, not really listing to the others force or intent, for taiji mantis I would think that there would be more sticking, emptying and controlling movements. More soft work would probably correct this and give you more options to use, rather then just using a lot of force and speed to overwhelm your partner.

The other thing maybe the most important thing is the disconnect between the waist and upper body when punching. If all of your parts where linked and supported each other it would be very hard for the other to find leaks or openings to slip though. If you watch boxers they use this type of movement. It allows them to work in close while still receiving and issuing power.

To much trading of hands.
Some taiji practice would really help in a lot of your practice. Of course I have a biases in this:cool: , any type of mindful softer practice would probably work just as well.

I must commend you for posting it, and asking for the many replies it shows real humbleness, a willing and clear sprit willing to share and learn.

david

[yu shan]

Thank you Mantis 108 for sharing this clip with us. You have subjected yourself to ridicule, and I respect you for this. I would also like to thank German Bai Lung for posting your clip. My approach is high and low, low and high...GOES FOR THE EYES! I go for the eyes, that sets up everything else. (JMO) But if you ask 18-Elders, he will tell you that I am a sweep freak, this is true. I love to attack the legs while punching the head. But if you fight people like Oso, forget the sweep. He is a large man, maybe revert to a side kick to the gut. And hopefully by then it is beer 30. Thanks again 108, wish I was there! :)

[-N-]

Well, I saw nothing to ridicule, and I hope my comments weren't taken as such.

Much appreciation to Mantis108 for his continual sharing with our mantis community.

N.

[B.Tunks]

N wrote:

'I saw nothing to ridicule'

Neither did I!!!

108, I read your explanation on the bounce and I understand your approach. There is no wrong or right here and what works for you is what works. As with N, I hope you dont see my comments as an attack. Originally I wasn't even going to add an opinion at all, but found myself discussing it outside the board and felt it only fair to share with you.
Keep doing your thing.

BT

[German Bai Lung]

Well, sharing a clip where one´s are fighting is a very brave job! I know that very well....

For the comments: if you see someone fighting like in this given clip, how did you come to the believing they "ONLY" fight like this all the time?

I think what we saw in the clip is one of many training-aspects to learn how to fight!

I myself uses some simular fighting for advanced. They can learn with these kind of fighting to apply mantis-techniques without doing too much harm to each other. They can learn how to apply groin attacks, locks, throatattacks etc.
For the fighting with power they have to wear gloves and a bodyshield and going fullcontact.


For the clip: it´s for all of us a great opportunity to learn from eachothers comments! But for that its more suitable to comment the techniqual side of the fight and not the decision how to fight (meaning fullcontact or techniqual or lightcontact!).

Once again: keep up the great work Robert!

[yu shan]

Gentleman,

It looks like I might have used the wrong terminology, yet again. When I post here, I only have a few moments, and I`m rushed. Will not bore you about my daily tasks. Seeing the sensitivities expressed here, I`ll try and watch every little detail of my future posts. I said nothing bad about Robert`s clip, sorry if I used the wrong word. Sometimes you guys seem wound up a bit too tight, relax, stress is really bad on your heart. Thanks Robert, saw something in the clip that I`m going to try today training in the park.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

The clip looked good to me but I would just like to address some of Oso's comments and the perception that others might have that this is all they would be able to do in a real fight. I've said things like this in the past but here I go again.

Hardcore sparring is a both good and bad. Loading up with protective equipment allows you to train to attack hard but at the cost of getting complacent with defense. Getting hit hard with a chest protector gives the mistaken belief you could handle it in a real fight without one.

My belief is spar without a cup and you will definitely learn to protect that area. Of course my early training was with minimal protective equipment. Believe it or not I would prefer to spar with only hand gear and exhibit control with recognition of techniques. Master Dennis Decker told me (mid 70's) when he trained in China they would just tear off a piece of t-shirt sleeve, roll it up and put it across their teeth, then go at it. Personally (and this may go for others as well) I don't have a problem training light to medium contact sparring and fighting for real with full intensity.

While it may be true that some (or most) will hold back in a real fight there are others like myself that have the opposite problem.
Learning MA and control is probably the only reason I haven't done time for a violent offense because that's the path I was on before my formal training.

BTW, I'm don't mean to sound like a tough guy or bada$$. I just have a violent streak that I've had to deal with and MA training has helped tremendously. And I stopped drinking, that helped too. :)

[18elders]

how do you convert a video clip to be able to post it like in quicktime??

[Mr.Binx]

You would need video conversion/editing software that supports the types of files you are looking to convert. The majority of these software packages unfortunately cost a pretty penny. If you have access to a digital camera it may have come bundled with similar software. You might also be able to find a free trial for one of these applications somewhere out on the web that would allow you to use it for 30 days or whatnot. Google (or any search engine for that matter) is a good place to start. It's often easier to just find a way to view the video in it's existing format.

[18elders]

thanks for your help.
if i can figure it out i will post some clips.

[Oso]

**edit** HLL, just reread this and I hope I haven't come off antagonist. Not my intent at all, hopefully this can be a good discussion on how different people apply their art in sparring/fighting.



please refer back to my 2nd post on the thread about the important part about the clip was that it was abviously light sparring in an environment they were trying to protect.

In that context, it was a fine example.

My comments weren't really about the clip but rather a minor rant about a conundrum I feel we all face.


Hardcore sparring is a both good and bad. Loading up with protective equipment allows you to train to attack hard but at the cost of getting complacent with defense.

Only if the teacher lets it go that way. The protective gear is there to mitigate damage when a shot gets in. In-School sparring should be supervised because the intent is to preserve the art/style at high speed and contact levels. It's up to the teacher to stop and get the combatants to refocus on the basic principles of the mantis fighter. Defense is certainly one of those principles.

The other, and possible more important, aspect is that most of us are trying to run commercial schools. The safer you can spar the better all the way around.



Getting hit hard with a chest protector gives the mistaken belief you could handle it in a real fight without one.

I disagree. Again, it's the teachers responsibility to make sure the students understand what's happening.



My belief is spar without a cup and you will definitely learn to protect that area.


can't agree there either. you still know, and it still hurts, to get popped in the cup. besides, who wants a ruptured testicle. or the liability.



Of course my early training was with minimal protective equipment. Believe it or not I would prefer to spar with only hand gear and exhibit control with recognition of techniques.


mine was too for the same reason you give above. I was also 14-21 and was learning from a guy in the backyard. good training and I don't regret it a bit but dangerous.

I prefer nothing but a cup and mouthguard and someone willing to trade blows, and preferable someone who can whup my azz so I learn something. :)



Master Dennis Decker told me (mid 70's) when he trained in China they would just tear off a piece of t-shirt sleeve, roll it up and put it across their teeth, then go at it. Personally (and this may go for others as well) I don't have a problem training light to medium contact sparring and fighting for real with full intensity.


That may be true now but what about early on in your career?


And to restate the opening gambit:

Intent.

Knowing you might get hit hard changes the game. You will revert to the simplest thing you know that works for you.

Light/medium sparring is good for the next phase past 1 step drills. You get a chance to perfect your gou lou tsai as Robert shows us. But if you never try that on a full speed/power attack then you can't possibly know how you are going to be able to do it when it matters.

[puja]

18elders,
if you're on a windows-system you can get a free copy of an older version of TMPGEnc at http://www.tmpgenc.net/e_main2.html
With this software you can encode Clips into MPEG-format (1 or 2) so you could easily put them on VCDs, S-VCDs or even DVDs or share it on the net. As every System (Linux, Windows, Mac) usually knows how to playback such files you won't encounter problems with sharing your clips.
If you want to spend some money you can also get the new Version of TMPGEnc (3.0 Express) which is a bit more userfriendly and supports more formats or for example Discreet Cleaner which I haven't tested yet.
If you need more detailed info i.e. on how to use the converter you can get in contact with me directly, as this thread isn't about how to encode clips.

best regards,

puja

[18elders]

thanks for your help! hopefully i can post some things soon.
I appreciate it.

[mantis108]

I am really taken by the support of everyone. Truely, I am very touched by all the help and the comments. My special acknowledgement to Jochen who has graciously offered to host the clip. I don't think there is any bad comments here. BTW, I understand Yu Shan meant no ill intention whatsoever. I would like to thank him for the inputs. Thank you my friend. :)

I would think All the questions asked are golden oppotunities to reach out for the different perspectives and understanding. More importantly, this thread really makes me feel like I am among the most friendliest martial art crowd in the whole wide world. You guys are great. I am very please that we have pretty much a broad range of Mantis stylists participating. Let's keep the good momentum going. People such as David, Brendan and Hua Lin who rarely speak up are chiming in. This makes it quite a special occassion for me. Thanks guys.

The technical analysis are much appreciated. I definitely am taking note of those.

I believe Oso brought up a great point about the transition of light to full contact sparring. I believe it basically boils down to that we need to switch between training intensity. This is done with each training intensity reinforces each other in mind. This direction, I think most of us are doing or heading towards. BTW, the business license and whole price for MA equipment is a brilliant suggestion. Thanks

The 2 approaches that he mentioned are both very valid. I am more inclined for the latter. This is the reason why I am having the ground phase early in the program. I believe for a fighting system to remain healthy and strong, we as the practitioners should stay current with the latest "fighting trend". Having said that I don't think we need to achieve that at the expense of the integrity of our styles. As most of you would have noted that techniques such as go lu tsai, can easily be put into test with a live resistive opponent.

One thought that I have so far is that I hope through this disscussion we will be letting go some of the uneasy feeling of posting our work especially in video format. This way we can truely enjoy each others 'company'. As we come to an understanding that we are here to help each other out. We are indeed amongst one of the most open minded MA community.

I look forward for more video sharing from everyone.18 Elders, I hope to see your work soon. I also look forward for YuShan's findings on the thing that he's testing out. It would be great if it is on film as well. Please give us an update soon. Thanks

You guys are the best! :)

Sincerely,

Robert

PS To those who are attending Shrfu Shr's seminar, I hope you'll all have a great time and learn plenty from this great master and rare opportunity (God knows, I envy you guys). Have fun!

[sayloc]

Hua lin,

Is the Dennis Decker you are speaking of from the Chi lin school?

If it is I would like to get some info about his school.

Thanks

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Oso,
I may have come off sounding like I'm against full equipment sparring. I'm not. I just like to point out that you shouldn't neglect the less gear/light contact benefits. The common belief is that if you train light to medium contact you will hold back in a real fight because that's how you're used to fighting. Personally I don't find that to be true. I trained light/medium contact (even no contact to the head) and still beat the crap out of people in the street.

Full protection allows you to ignore some of the hits you're taking giving a false sense of body conditioning. Your mind is off defense since you're 'protected' and you neglect to properly defend. Then you get hit in the street, it hurts like hell and the fight is over. The hit you can take and fight through in class with gear on is the one that will drop you in the street.

Great for offensive training but you should also drop the gear and go light for the defensive training. All you hear anymore is hard hard hard. Too much yang. All sun makes a desert.

I realise my opinion doesn't mesh with everyone else and popular teaching but I throw it out for discussion anyhow. Spar without gear and I bet your strategy changes completely. You won't have the gear crutch that lets you be the tough aggressive fighter you like to be. No more superman, just a regular guy that gets hurt when you hit him.

Guess I'm just old fashion.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

sayloc
Yes, it's the same Dennis Decker. Someone else recently brought up his name on this forum. I can't tell you anything about his school. I knew him in the '70s when he taught a little at the Kenpo school where I was training. He seems to have built quite a following after that.

Chi Lin is basically Kenpo which is Chuan Fa (Fist Way or Fist Method), Chinese Kung Fu as handed down to Japan. Pai Lum is another example of Kenpo trying to get back to their Chinese roots.

Personally I think Kenpo gets a bad rap, but then I'm a little biased. :D


BTW Oso, I've seen your pictures. Maybe I do want gear. Ha!:D

[Oso]

I didn't take it that way at all, just got up on my soap box for a bit. :)

I did hung gar for 7 years with no gear and a progressive approach to sparring, it was almost a year before we did any free sparring at all, then it took about 3 years before we did any 'controlled full' and then we did run a 'scale' of sorts. Light to full. Sometimes over a period of weeks but sometimes in the same sparring session.

Since then ('89) I'd been in a school where we wore hand and foot pads, cups and mouthpieces and sparred mostly medium contact most of the time.

Now I'm exploring the other end for a bit.

I still think it's the mindset of the student and the teacher controlling the event. You could ignore the hits you are taking but not really feeling through the padding but you shouldn't. The teacher should review with the student after a spaarring session or during breaks and say "Hey, he kept tagging your liver or spleen so keep your elbows down a bit more"


Too much yang. All sun makes a desert.

lol, I agree, what does too much yin do, though?



I realise my opinion doesn't mesh with everyone else and popular teaching but I throw it out for discussion anyhow. Spar without gear and I bet your strategy changes completely. You won't have the gear crutch that lets you be the tough aggressive fighter you like to be. No more superman, just a regular guy that gets hurt when you hit him.


As long as we all keep the right perspective about each others opinions and remember that they come from a different experience and not necessarily a wrong one then we can continue with good dialogue. Too much crap flowing around here sometimes.

You are totally right that your strategy will change. But that's a mental thing isn't it? I experienced the very thing in March. What I want to try and do, and teach my students to do, is put the gear on and still try to be a mantis fighter.

For me, that means to drill like a mofo and then cognitively spar at all levels but with an emphasis on protected 3/4 to full on fighting.

thanks for the discussion :)

[Oso]

BTW Oso, I've seen your pictures. Maybe I do want gear. Ha!

lol, need to work on losing some of that gut

a 6 year old in my kids class told me during a 'sparring' session that I moved like a turtle, only slower !!!!

I'm waiting on pics to come back in from that day, I'll post em.

[yu shan]

Mantis 108

I tell ya, all in all, this Northern Praying Mantis forum is full of class. I`m a little ruff around the edges and sometimes folks misunderstand me, my typing skills s*ck. But I admire and respect and to me that counts. I don`t bs much when I train, I`m kind of a quite guy. Anyway, did not try the tech today that I saw on clip. Busy getting around to everyone. 18-Elders is going to put some stuff up. An old student of mine who now trains with Shrfu Scolaro crossed hands with a fellow named Don. 18-Elders was impressed with what he saw. Don trained with Tainan Mantis and is back in Tampa for some reason. Andrew and Don are young, but very talented & smart!

Kenpo guys fight very well, be prepared.

[sayloc]

Deckers Chi Lin Style is the unicorn or I think it is also spelled Qilin style. You know Like unicorn stepping in the southern styles. (some people call drunken stepping )

I think most of the Forms are animal based and have a weapon side to it without changing the form.

You could do the dragon form and it works out to be a double dagger form also. The tiger form is also a broad sword form

I thought it was kind of a cool idea

I think the kenpo is ok also, but I can trace the pai lum forms directly to southern and northern style forms.

I could tell you what form came from where if you like.

Have a good one

[sayloc]

Sorry

Previous message was for hua lin

[B.Tunks]

Originally posted by yu shan
Sometimes you guys seem wound up a bit too tight, relax, stress is really bad on your heart.

Thanks for caring mate, I'll take better care of myself from now on.

bt

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Oso,
Gotta love those kids! You haven't seen slow until you've watched me fight. I'll have to challenge you to a slow fight. Like the Harley guys do in their slow race.:D

Funny story about fighting slow - back in El Paso my brother-in-law trained at a TKD school. I went to a tourney to watch them and the best fighter they had was tall, lanky and moved kinda slow. Funny thing was he was beating everyone and it was the strangest thing I ever saw. Maybe he should create a sloth style.

[Oso]

Ok, you're on...first person to not move wins !



Maybe he should create a sloth style.

He could fight Ming Yue with her 'Slow Lorus' style.

They say timing is more important than speed anyway.

[Tainan Mantis]

Shanghai Kid,
I downloaded the latest Quicktime software, but it still won't play this clip.
How did you get Quicktime to play this clip?