Experiencing Chan Buddhism?

[freedom76]

How does one experience "Buddhism" through Kung Fu, through meditation, and/or chanting (or other rituals)?
Is there a book that contains the basics of Chan Buddhism? (Beliefs, rituals, etc.)

[blooming lotus]

there are and I'm sure someone will give you links....in the meantime, I want to add that giongfu is a means to facilitate ch'an meditation on buddhist concepts...and while kick as* is not what people perceive it to be in terms of fighting prowess or testosteronic endowment........

[CaptinPickAxe]

My guess would be experiencing extremes of both paths. Extremely peaceful, extremely aggressive. Therefore making the middle path more clear. I've found paradoxes in training in a art of hurting and killing, and trying to practice peace. I have to say though, it has shown me (a little) that you shouldn't be extremely anything.

just my two cents, I hope it helped, chum;)

[blooming lotus]

your guess is extremely aggressive and peaceful???...I don't really understand because then you say not to be extremely anything :confused:

can't be sure I agree with you on the aggressive call either, my best work is done through detatchment

[CaptinPickAxe]

I learned that by experiencing the two. .

lemme break it down to you:

Martial Arts: extremely aggressive

Buddhism: extremely peaceful

The Lesson: don't be extremely either, but chose the middle path. Protect when you have to protect, be peaceful when you can be peaceful. Humans are riddled with faults therefore, unless you have reached enlightement, you can't always be peaceful and mindful. It is up to you to choose the correct times for aggression. Pray that you make the right choices.

See?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
I learned that by experiencing the two. .

lemme break it down to you:

Martial Arts: extremely aggressive


hmmmmm...todays martial art???.....I'll pay that only for the fact yang...using your body with directed force is aggressive....intention excluded


Buddhism: extremely peaceful

The Lesson: don't be extremely either, but chose the middle path. Protect when you have to protect, be peaceful when you can be peaceful. Humans are riddled with faults therefore, unless you have reached enlightement, you can't always be peaceful and mindful. It is up to you to choose the correct times for aggression. Pray that you make the right choices.

See?

aggression as anger, is self damaging, environmentally influential and not something anyone should cultivate.......but because of the yin/yang cause and effect scenario, I guess as a buddhist, particularly a ch'an buddhist , I decide to practice detatchment from either........needs a little work but that's the goal ;)

[CaptinPickAxe]

So your admitting that you don't practice martial arts?

Also, you missing the point here. I have a question: Why do you chose to abanndon everything? What are you trying to get away from? Detatchment isn't the answer always. Living a life of poverty is completely different from leaving your friends and family. In Buddhist terms your Sangha. You must have a sangha. Its unhealthy to completely remove yourself from a social situation, and underminds the theory of becoming a monk. Which includes spreading dharma (which needs people, usually ones your close to)

I question your motive,BL. It seems like your running away, not detatching yourself.

[freedom76]

Does practicing Kung Fu mean experiencing self, others, and/or the universe, and does this mean experiencing Buddhism, i.e., moving towards enlightenment through experience and understanding? (Or is this just a bunch of metaphysical b.s. and its simply not that complex and definable, but rather it is what it simply is?) Does this apply to meditation, chanting, calligraphy, etc.? What is the kernel (seed) that is Buddhism, that all else grows from?

If desire brings suffering, how does one remove all desires, including the desire to remove desire?

[blooming lotus]

I'm admitting nothing...I have been practicing gongfu for while whenever possible.......the reason I am here is to go to temple to study ch'an in peace so as my snga contribution ( aprt from teaching for a bucket of $$$ I don't need)...this will allow me to meditate with the dilgence it deserves in peace ....so that I can pass on my learnings to the western world by way of my dissertation and a book I have alawys planned to write. Very little western works in much detail have gone to print in this regard........Gongfu is a part of than ch'an belief system but is secondary to buddhism and only to facilitate.............As far as Ally goes, she understands I am doing important work and whether I succeed or not, she will cheer me on andwe wilol meet up agaion once this leg is over and discuss whether or not she'd like to relocate or if I will stay with her there......

I run away from nothing except destructive attitudes

[CaptinPickAxe]

The seed that buddhism grows from is compassion, humility, and the will to fix your faults.


The way to rid yourself of disires is a complicated path. Since I haven't rid myself of all earthly desire, I can only offer my opinion. I belive the first step to getting rid of earthly desires is realizing them. What can you live with out? How can you go about adjusting your life to cut these out?

As an American, I find it hard to cut out the proverbial fat. I'm always keeping up with the jones'. Its takes lifetimes of practice and the will to say, "Its time I give this up, it isn't a nessecity.

I'm fixing to start a "Dharma Talk" thread...I just can find the place to put it...maybe the meditation fourm.

[blooming lotus]

well since dahrma is shaolin concept is should probably go there........

even if people don't make it a permaent way of life....and this is just my opinion....I think that it builds a healthy constitution to experience living on only neccessities and gives a peace and self-assurance to know you can ............personally, Ilike to know beyond a doubt 'll cope ..........every now and then, you'll get cauight with yuor pants down, but that's part of the experience ;)

[CaptinPickAxe]

well since dahrma is shaolin concept is should probably go there

Dharma is the teachings of Buddha...not a shaolin concept

[blooming lotus]

but since there uis no buddhist thread here, shaolin forum would be apprioprate. Also dahrma involves aspects of academia aswell and therefore is not exclusive to mediataion..........

[CaptinPickAxe]

I'm not in the mood to argue with you, BL.

I find the meditation forum more approprate seeing how it deals with spirituality more so that Shaolin Kung Fu.
That being said: Please vist my Dharma Talk thread, everyones insight is welcome.

[blooming lotus]

it's your thread..put it whre you want, but to discount the spirituality of shaolin to totally misunderstand what shaolin is and what it's about

[CaptinPickAxe]

I'm not discounting the spiritual aspect of shoalin. Its just that this is for Kung Fu a fighting art. I think it will be more in its element in the qigong and mediation forum. Also, less threads there...

[blooming lotus]

Like I said , put it where you want ...and if you can relate dahrma to fighting and art and get people to combine both, props to you:cool:

[David Jamieson]

Freedom 76

The seeds of Ch'an/Zen were sewn through the Mahayana school and developed at shaolin Temple.

It is said that in teh very beginning, the intellectual understanding of Ch'an was drawn from the Lankavatara sutra as transmitted by Bodhidharma to the second patriarch Hui ke.

Here is a link to an english translated version of the sutra.
read it and it is likely that a great deal of your questions will be answerd

http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/mahayana-writings/lankavatara-sutra.htm

secondly, there are some articles online regarding zen and martial arts practice and the pertinence of one to the other.

You can find these materials at http://www.hsuyun.org

If you are interested in an intellectual understanding of Zen, you have to realize that you can only go halfway with that because Ch'an/Zen leaves the dualistic reasoning of the intellect behind in it's levels of "real" understanding.

anyway, as far as online stuff you can access goes, the links provided will give you a start.

In regards to continued practice, you can approach a zen temple and use the zen do (meditation chamber) along with other members of the community. usually there are open dharma services at any zen temple anywhere where there is one and they are in a great deal of places.

But the circumstances do not alwaysallow for people to attend temple and experience the three treasures plus the use of the chamber, so, you may have to do a little self study.

The practice of Zen is arduous and ultimately, at it's upper levels of self realization, no one has anything to offer you, so crawl before walking etc etc, but keep that in mind.

cheers

[freedom76]

Thank you Kung Lek. I've read some of that already, very interesting and not too much different from some of my thoughts.
It seems it's about detaching without detaching but not so defined. I've had some experiences when I've been praticing forms and it's quite interesting, but as soon as I try to hold onto that feeling I lose it. It's feeling it without feeling it or it's gone. The feeling is hard to describe, but it' kind of like awareness. I had it once meditating, it felt like a great connection, very big, but when I focused on it, it was gone. It's almost like seeing something out of the corner of your eye, but you turn your head and it's gone. Seen but not seen. I suppose that it's like bent but not bent, straight but not straight. It sounds so metaphysical and a bit hokey, but I can't deny what I've felt/seen. I find this very interesting because I'm not Buddhist, per se, but I am spiritual, perhaps a little religious. Your thoughts?

[blooming lotus]

maybe it dissapeared because you tried to contain or define it withn words ( which according to ch'an belief limits and negates)..............ch'an to the best of my knowldege is enlightment before words define and restrict............xingku on......work harder and mei xiang..meditate and reach prajna.........

peace

[David Jamieson]

Your thoughts?

Keep practicing :D

cheers

[freedom76]

heh heh heh:D

[Da_Moose]

For those who wanted more on Chan Buddhism, check out this site:
http://www.hsuyun.org

It has plenty of information. There is also a e-book there called
The 7th World of Chan Buddhism that is well worth reading if you're interested in some of the Basics of Chan. You can quickly find it by clicking on the drop down menu located in the upper right hand corner of the page.

[GeneChing]

I think that the web has been great for the spreading of Chan - so much is online now. There are more resources at your keyboard fingertips than ever. So practice should be easier, right? :p

[David Jamieson]

So practice should be easier, right?

:p

is it hard to do?

[GeneChing]

Especially now. Last night I had to do some wushu stuff. Man, I'm way too old for wushu. Wushu is too hard. I love it, it's a rush to move the energy that way, but I'm alway sore for days after. Give me traditional any day. :p

Oh wait, we were talking about Chan. Nevermind.

[blooming lotus]

lol.understanding and empathising.............

I guess that's what make ch'an practioners and practioning so rare and precious,especially in such a modern day hustle-bustle life.............yah, it's hard at times to remain committed, but that's the trip right..........xingku on my friends ;)

[Toby]

Lucky we've got you to guide us, holy one.

[David Jamieson]

lol@ gene. Man, you are too old for performance wushu, what the blazes are you doing man!? :p

I am fully commited to styles that use minimal kicking techniques myself :D Subsequently, my hand skills have improved immensely over the last 3 years or so.

But I do my baksillum sets still and with diligence. Those are more than fancy enough for me traditional kungfu wise.

As for Ch'an, well, I practice seated meditation everyday and let the external distractions just drift through me while I practice.
As for the buddhist aspect, just help people who appear in need.

I don't attend the sangha as much as I would like, but i find it elsewhere in my friends and family as well.

Adhering to the Dharma can be found in the middle path.

acknowledging the master is for me simple actions taken through the above two notables.

so, is it hard? I guess it can be if you become to bound to the external. Many of us cannot avoid that, what with having responsibilities, it is hard to make all of them and still have time to look inward.

But, it's what ya gotta do.

cheers

[GeneChing]

lol@ gene. Man, you are too old for performance wushu, what the blazes are you doing man!? I haven't a clue. I think we went into doing some wushu for two reasons. First, the class I'm in has a few beginners that don't have their legs yet and wushu trains legs. Second, because Cui Yahui just visited. All I know is it's been two days now and I'm still sore. I do enjoy wushu because it's so expressive - honestly I like to dance, but I'm a crummy dancer. I'm a crummy wushu player. But it's still fun, now and again. You get that real rush - it's like flying. The funny thing is that the last few classes have been structured so - warm ups, then this sanda/muay thai/36 elbows (http://store.martialartsmart.net/prtc009.html) hybrid of solo and partner drills, then wushu. We've been doing this for a week or so. It's funny to move from the real practical elbow and knee stuff to the flowery stuff. I get off. ;)

But to bring this back on topic, dabbling in wushu again is great for me personally right now because it brings me back to beginner's mind. Suzuki roshi said (and Im paraphrasing) that it was all about beginner's mind, that beginner's mind is limitless, while an advanced practitioner has already reduced the degrees of freedom and by doing so, has become impure. In his view, the practice is easy, and even enlightenment is easy, but beginner's mind, that's the hard part.

So, Toby, don't follow Blooming, follow freedom76 ;)

[David Jamieson]

...dabbling in wushu again is great for me personally right now because it brings me back to beginner's mind.

I wonder if this is a commonality amongst men who are 40 and are Dragons! lol

I have undertaken "new beginnings" for the very same reason, a return to the uninhibited viewpoint. The fresh perspective unmarred by presupposition or foreknowledge.

Not only is it humbling, it's a kick! Anyway, you're doing wushu and I'm opening up to more hardcore training with people from backgrounds 180 degrees from my own experience.

I think that the mind that is ready to learn will always be more fertile and quick to bring to fruition the learning applied than the mind that must be tilled, furrowed and seeded. Just an observation.

cheers

[GeneChing]

Actually, it's just how Sifu Tony Chen teaches - he throws a lot of stuff at his students and sees what sticks. We'll see if we do more wushu tonight. We've actually been doing more of his thai/36 sanda and the wushu is sort of a cool down (!?) I haven't done muay thai since I was in Bangkok (they kicked my butt and sent me packing). And the 36 elbows (http://store.martialartsmart.net/prtc009.html) stuff is new, although somewhat familiar since Songshan Shaolin has some elbow stuff. But in truth, I always have endevored to keep things fresh. I'd like to say it's a zen thing, but in truth, major memory lapses help. ;)

[David Jamieson]

Well, I think my mid life thing has passed (or not begun yet:eek: )

But yep, new waves of different things in a given genre opens ones eyes and minds to the endless possibilities, the limitations and the capabilities.

Real good for the understanding bone which is connected to the kungfu bone!

cheers