Attn: Asia

[Merryprankster]

Asia,

Can you please discuss the differences in power generation between Baji striking and say, boxing, which you are also familiar with.

Thanks.

[omarthefish]

I'm looking forward to this one.

I could talk about Baji with authority but I don't think anyone here would respect my opinion on how boxers generate power. :D

I get it confused with bagua anyways. Love those hooks.

[Asia]

Good topic.:D
First we all know the hips and waist come into play for generating power.

Boxing:

Power is primarily generated by twisting the waist. For exp a 1,2 combo. You jab with the lead hand then you follow up with the rear hand and twist the body into the punch. You tend to hear, "Throw you hip into the punch." Which is to insure you are twisting enough.
http://www.dolfzine.com/Toddfight.jpg
http://www.theonetwopunch.com/images/shadowbox1.jpg
You also push of with the leg to which hads power and a bit of reach.

In BAJI!
Power is generated by moving the whole body forward. It hard for me to put into words but hopefully this will help. Stand normally take a forceful step forward, like trying to squash a bug, as you do step down shoot your hips forwad and sink down. That is a simple method in generating power. The strenght of the legs and hips are important so a lot of stance training is used to strengthen them. Anoter is to coil the body then let it explode.

Exp.:
coiled
http://www.wutanalaska.com/gallery/sty-bp-1.jpg
released
http://www.wutanalaska.com/gallery/sty-bp-3.jpg

Tony Yang did two articles on this for Journal of Asian MA and you can find them here:
http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/index.html

[rogue]

I don't know if it's exactly the same Asia, but what you described sounds like what my sensei is trying to get me to do with my Oi-zuki. Have you seen this method in any other arts?
Going to have to read those articles when I get back.

[FatherDog]

Asia - are you familiar with the "drop step" in boxing, and if so how would you compare it with Baji's "moving the whole body forward" for power?

Drop step as explained by Jack Dempsey (http://stickgrappler2.tripod.com/kbox/dempsey8.html)

[ShaolinTiger00]

father dog beat me to it.

boxing has it.

Asia, here's a question.

Why should anyone study baji over boxing?

[cerebus]

Baji: Fists, feet, knees, elbows, joint locks, throws

Boxing: Fists

Edit: Oh yeah, Baji uses hips & shoulders to strike with too!:D

[rogue]

Asia, didn't you use it in that video of the Bullshido throwdown? Is that video still out there?

[CaptinPickAxe]

Interesting thread. I have to say though, although boxing rules only allow the front of the fist to make contact, the ciriculm doesn't "x"out the addition of elbows and headbuts. I'm very interested in boxing and when I return to San Antonio, I plan to attend a school. Maybe then I could add some more insight into boxing for those who have questions. For, now though, I'll have to wing it with my limited expereince.

[cerebus]

Well, I boxed for over 4 years and elbows & headbutts are definitely NOT allowed, nor are they a part of boxing. Certainly, in a real fight you will do whatever you have to, but the question was about the differences between "Boxing" and "Baji". ;)

[MonkeySlap Too]

I love boxing, and I appreciate the training and how tough boxers are. And I agree many CMA schools do not even come close to preparing folks for contact like boxing does. But my CMA experience has been rather different, and I am not convinced that boxing is the ultimate answer, unless you are fighting with boxing gloves on, in which case, it is a GREAT solution.

Oh, and a good hook. I can't understand why so many boxing gyms teach it so badly. The hook rocks. My favorite tool from boxing.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I can't understand why so many boxing gyms teach it so badly.

By far the hardest punch to master. So many people execute it wrongly.

I've had it taught to me differently from about 5 different coaches, each one had their own ideas on it.

In my mind I'm just now beginning to learn how to develop the true power potential of the hook. after all these years of hitting the pads, bags and bodies.. that's a very humbling thing.

In hindsight, I think what created my problem was trying to reach too far to hit the opponent creating a small drop of the left and a "loop" in my defense.

[Asia]

I don't know if it's exactly the same Asia, but what you described sounds like what my sensei is trying to get me to do with my Oi-zuki. Have you seen this method in any other arts?

Not exactly. My discription is a bit off. When you stomp down you should shift to ma bu and sink.


Asia - are you familiar with the "drop step" in boxing, and if so how would you compare it with Baji's "moving the whole body forward" for power?

VERY familiar. It part of one my clubs killer combos. "TOP to the BOX" Jab to the fac drop step smash them in the bread box (atcually you want to aim either dead center or to the obliques encase the guy as rock hard abs. Sshhh Ancient Boxing Secret!;) )
Very similar in mechanics to BAJI.


Why should anyone study baji over boxing?
Better question. Why NOT study them BOTH? More tools inthe toolbox increase the chances of having the right tool for the job.:D Baji is an close range fighting art and that were I like to be. Up close and personal.



Asia, didn't you use it in that video of the Bullshido throwdown? Is that video still out there?
Here you go:ATL McThrowdown 2K3 (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5800&highlight=McThrowdown+2003)

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too

Oh, and a good hook. I can't understand why so many boxing gyms teach it so badly. The hook rocks. My favorite tool from boxing. [/B]

I got my hook from my bagua practice and it rocks. When I was doing MT my partners all commented on how strong my left hook was. I think it's just hard to get a hook to connect from the feet but the constant footwork practice really helped. Especially the direction change. Bai bu - kou bu combo gives awsome power for ANY horizontal circular technique.

I always felt the methods I learned in bagua were more similar to boxing than BAJI!!! (drop step noted) Before I was doing BAJI my thing was to spend long periods of time throwing loose looping punches at the bag from all different angles working to get 100% of the power from the footwork. That was when I finnaly got strong enough hooks I needed to start wrapping my hands and even then I would occaionaly damage the skin on my knuckles...through wraps and bag gloves. :)

Now with BAJI I find the added follow through with the body shift and more straight punching means I need stronger wrists and arms to bear the impact. I injured my elbow about 2 months ago woriking on this stuff and it's still not quite all the way better.

[Unmatchable]

why has boxing done so bad in early ufc tournaments with pure boxers and cross trainers like Patt SMith who couldn't knock out a pure karate guy with it, or had to take a ninjitsu guy to the ground to win?

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
boxing has it.

The popular traditional martial arts culture seems to be finally giving up the fantasy that martial arts are about check-lists of what techniques you "have", in recognition that it's the specifics of training that matter. Thankfully, it's been some time since I've heard an equivalence made between some kungfu style and some grappling style owning to a peculiar notion about all the grappling that some kungfu form "has."

It would be unfortunate if this fallacy is merely changing proponents rather than dying out completely as it should.

[SevenStar]

earth dragon maintains that mantis has it all...

[Asia]

why has boxing done so bad in early ufc tournaments with pure boxers and cross trainers like Patt SMith who couldn't knock out a pure karate guy with it, or had to take a ninjitsu guy to the ground to win?

I'd have to go back and watch them. I don't remember to many pure boxers in the mix. There was the guy who wore on glove and I was like, OH GOD! If the other guy is bare knuckled so am I, or at least have wrapps for better wrist support. If I remeber correctly the Karate guy was pretty big and a bit crazy. I think he would have given alot of pple problems back them. But of course we all know never mess with a NIIIIIIIIINJA!:D



I always felt the methods I learned in bagua were more similar to boxing than

I am not that familar with bagua, but I believe is generates his power by twisting the body as well. That how boxing does it so you should find some similarity.

[FatherDog]

I wasn't trying to establish that boxing "has" or "doesn't have" anything - and frankly, in my experience not many boxing trainers these days teach the drop step anyway. Neither of my boxing coaches has, and both of them have pretty extensive amateur careers. I was just curious if the description of it in Dempsey's book sounds the same as the way Asia was taught to "move the whole body forward" in Baji, and if not, what the differences are.

[Merryprankster]

Thanks Asia.

That's a help. I have a very moderate boxing background so I'm able to make some sense of what you are saying. I appreciate the time.

Now, could you describe any similarities? In other words, just how different are we talking? Can you find an analogous - obviously not necessarily identical - movement or movements in boxing or other arts?

[ShaolinTiger00]

There was the guy who wore one glove

Art Jimmerson. the very first UFC match. he fought Royce. Royce didn't even submit him. just mounted him and he paniced and gave up!