Chinese and Japanese Martial arts

[Battosai]

Hello Everyone,

I am wondering what the main differences between these branches of martial arts are. I dont have very much experience with Japanese arts, and only a little with Chinese, and I recognize there are vast differences within Chinese martial arts itself.

But for those of you who have trained in both, what are the differences (main ones?) is it a matter of footwork or power generation? are there internal components to the Japanese arts like their Chinese counterparts?

I am curious because their is a Ninpo school close to where I work and I am thinking about dropping by and checking it out, it offers ninpo and jujutsu.

I realize this is kind of a broad question, but I am interested in peoples opinions and experiences

Thanks
Scott

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. "Kind of a broad question"? Well, that's ONE way of putting it. In fact, it's SO broad, it's completely meaningless.

It's like asking "what is the difference between people named John and people named Mike?".

Narrow your question down a bit or go to your local library (or just browse the internet) and do some reasearch.

[Vash]

One group is from China.

One group is from Japan.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by Vash
One group is from China.

One group is from Japan.


Yeah, but the first group greatly influenced the second group (infact WAS the second group, but just transplanted, with some bits missing).

The second group then went on to become Sholin Do....which is kind of...sort of......well, almost chinese.


The main differances between the chinese and jap arts would have to be the mind set of the japenes. Its hard to describe so I will not even try, but I will say that it tends to be totaly messed up here in the west and is just an excuse for shouting at students and inflicting meaningless pain on your juniors.

[wikid009]

i think jap martial arts is generally a harder style because i cant really think of any internal styles but chinese martial arts is very diverse but im not sure if theres an internal martial art for jap if there is can some one let me know thanks..
I also think that jap martial art is very rigid and hard just take karate for instant all the blocks are hard and punchs and stuff , i think that karate is too hard any way just tryin to add sum info lol prove me wrong if you disagree with any thing .

[cerebus]

The Japanese have Aikido, Shintaido, and some systems of Jujutsu that are very "internal" in nature.

Wikid009, what style of Karate have you trained in? To generalize all Karate as "rigid" or as "hard" shows that you don't really know anything about Karate.

[wikid009]

I guess not ..... oh yeah i also forgot about aikido oops ah well my post was a waste of time ..... and ive never trained in karate its just what i generally thought of it are there any internal or softer styles of karate ?

[SevenStar]

let's not forget sanchin...

[cerebus]

These days it's difficult to label a style of Karate as just one thing or another. Many people think of Shotokan as the "Hardest" style of Karate, but I've seen teachers who constantly emphasized relaxation & full body coordination as the correct way to develop power. There are just too many branches of too many styles to make sweeping comments about any art .

Imagine someone asking "What is Kung Fu like?" What... internal or external systems? Northern or Southern systems? Which branch of which system? There are over 1000 different systems of Kung Fu with some as different from each other as night and day.

[wikid009]

Ok thanks any way i understand what you mean and i'll try not to be so narrow minded now lol

[Tiger_Yin]

i doubt shintaido is an OLD style ;) plus aikido.. no comments
lets just say.. china is the rot for most japan things :)

[cerebus]

No, Shintaido is not old. No one ever said "old JMA".

[rogue]

china is the rot for most japan things

Well said.:D

[SPJ]

Some have the common roots. Some are unique.

Okinawan Karate (Tang hand or China hand) may be traced back to Southern Shaolin Tiger or 5 ancester?

Judo, Jujitsu or Aikido are similar to Qin Na and Suai Jiao.

However, Qin Na and Suai Jiao are integral parts of almost all schools of Wushu.

There are 4 main technical categories of Wushu/Gong Fu.

1) Hitting (punch and kick, Da and Ti).

2) Grappling (Qin and Na)

3) Throwing (Suai).

4) Tripping to fall (Dei)

Any form of Wushu is consisted of at least 2 categories of the 4.

Budo or Bushido are similar to Wu Dao or Wusi Dao.

However, Chinese have a lot more wars and integrations of "outsiders". Wushu is much more diverse and far more complexed.

[Royal Dragon]

let's not forget sanchin...

Reply]
Which is found in the Southern Tai Tzu Quan--------> 5 Anscestor's Fist-------------->Okinawian Karate. :D

[Vash]

Originally posted by SevenStar
let's not forget sanchin...

Indeed.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Liokault


The main differances between the chinese and jap arts .

Try to find the energy to type the word 'Japanese', ok? Its only one letter longer than the word 'Chinese', and you seem to do ok with that one.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by unkokusai


Try to find the energy to type the word 'Japanese', ok? Its only one letter longer than the word 'Chinese', and you seem to do ok with that one.


Normaly I just lump them together as chin-ks, so its all new to me:D

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by wikid009
i think jap martial arts is generally a harder style because i cant really think of any internal styles

"Internal styles" simply refers to a sub-culture of traditional chinese martial arts which began in 1894 (see here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=485682#post485682)). They are, by definition, a subset of chinese martial culture, so it's really meaningless to observe that there's no internal styles in japanese martial culture.

There are, of course, Japanese (and Indonesian, and European, etc.) martial arts which teach relaxation, skillfull body movement, and so on.

[SPJ]

The idea of internal vs external is rooted in Chinese medicine. So the history is longer than 3000 years old. (maybe over 4000 years)

To cultivate internal strength or Qi Gong is emphasized by Daoists. So Zhang San Feng's writing was thought as the most important milestone.

True, it is mainly a Chinese theory and practice.

[wikid009]

well im ever so sorry to have offended you mr unqwihefuiqwen ill try to use just a little bit more energy in future to type Japanese......again im ever so sorry i must apoligize greatly for my ill manored actions please forgive me !!!!

[cerebus]

Hello wikid009. Just so you know, here in the U.S. the term "Jap" is considered a very derogetory way of refering to Japanese people. I realize that overseas this is often not the case, but if someone gets angry at you for using it it's because in this country at least, it's considered very insulting.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by wikid009
well im ever so sorry to have offended you mr unqwihefuiqwen ill try to use just a little bit more energy in future to type Japanese......again im ever so sorry i must apoligize greatly for my ill manored actions please forgive me !!!!

I'll think about it.

[SPJ]

Actually. They like to be called Nippon. They put it on the stamps and literature. However, the West is still saying Japan.

Nippon means the source or the root is from the Sun.

Chin is the first Dynasty. So the land is called Chin+a.

Chine or Chin is in a lot of languages. Chino in spansih.

[Gangsterfist]

A lot of Okinawan systems of karate were also heavily influenced fukien white crane. Some lineages have it traced back to southern china as well.

I have trained in both chinese and japanese martial arts. They have differences and similarities. The thought that all karate is external and a "harder" style is a common misconception and perhaps taught that way by bad instructors. Sometimes its true in certain styles.

I will say that some complete japanese systems (ones that were taught to the samurai) are more complete than a lot of other systems. They have grappling, stand up, take down, weapons, pressure point fighting so on and so forth. They covered a lot of aspects of combat which a lot of other systems do not.

I will also comment that I see the words ninpo and ninjitsu tossed around alot in karate schools. I think that a lot of that is mostly advertising and not really ninpo or ninjitsu.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by SPJ
Actually. They like to be called Nippon.


LOL

Not really!

LOL


Do you like to be called The United States of America?


LOL

[Mr Punch]

Unkokusai has taken the politically correct, dressed it up as a slanty-eyed midget, and CMAed its karate-choppin ass round the room.

BTW Unko, your name would go down well with some of my third-grader students...! To what is it referring? Bush's admin!? :D ;)

BTW 2, Wikiwo'ever, unless it's changed with the ever-lessening wits of the younger generations, you should know full well that 'Jap' is a deregatory term in the UK too.

BTW 3, SPJ, much as I respect your opinion on a few things, your Japanese frequently sucks! :D Nippon is the name of the country for stamps, money and ultranationalists, and when they refer to themselves they are Nihonjin. I've never met a Japanese person who minds being called Japanese however, by us pasty, gangly, tiny-headed foreign *******s.

Mat, your friendly neighbourhood pasty gangly tiny-headed foreign *******.

:D

To answer the question, power generation (and more basicly stance and hip movement, plus transmission to the opponent), a more regimented training style in Japan, most internal elements being based on the tanden or some sometimes vague notions of meditation (but usually very pragmatic 'just-part-of-the-training' lack of mysticism kind of meditation) are among the main differences I would say in a hurry.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Mat


BTW Unko, your name would go down well with some of my third-grader students...! To what is it referring? Bush's admin!? :D ;)



Nah. It was inspired by the fat, rotting asses of hillary, kennedy, et. al.:D :cool:

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by unkokusai
et. al. That poor sap Gore. He always gets it. But not off his wife.

[Fu-Pow]

In my opinion Karate is simplified...sometimes OVERLY simplified... Kung Fu.

It usually emphasizes the harder over the softer aspects.

Nothing wrong with it perse for self-defense but it seems to lack the breadth and the depth of most Chinese martial arts.

I have a classmate that studied Isshin Ryu karate for a very long time. It looks kind of like Wing Chun or Xing Yi maybe, but not nearly as fluid.

It seems he has a hard time relaxing his shoulder and not jerking his hips around to generate power.

The art of Aikido seems like it is more internal in nature ie using your enemies own force against him. But I think the body mechanics are not as sophisticated as in the Chinese internal arts.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Mat
That poor sap Gore. He always gets it. But not off his wife.

He's still muggin' for press when he can though. His latest thing was begging for face time when that new movie about the 'sudden ice age' came out a few days ago.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Mat


BTW Unko, your name would go down well with some of my third-grader students...! .

You working in public school or an eikaiwa?

[Vash]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
In my opinion Karate is simplified...sometimes OVERLY simplified... Kung Fu.

It usually emphasizes the harder over the softer aspects.

Nothing wrong with it perse for self-defense but it seems to lack the breadth and the depth of most Chinese martial arts.

I have a classmate that studied Isshin Ryu karate for a very long time. It looks kind of like Wing Chun or Xing Yi maybe, but not nearly as fluid.

It seems he has a hard time relaxing his shoulder and not jerking his hips around to generate power.


Different practitioners bring out different aspects of the art, I guess.

I'm an Isshinryu peep (so, I'm the ******* son of Goju and Shorin, two slightly different power generation methods) and I don't punch with a lot of hip swingin'. Generally, I like the act of "whipping" my spine in an upward and slightly horizontal path. Seems to work better for me. I get more of a snap, feel more relaxed when I strike, and am less prone to getting tossed if my strike misses. For a good example of that kinda movement, check out Sanchin. Good stuff, so long as you don't breath too heavy.

Other peeps with whom I've worked said it's better to "lead" with the hip slightly and push up as a secondary motion. Worked awesome for them, but doesn't do it for me.

[SPJ]

Agreed. Nippon is the country and not the people.

I grew up in Taipei, Taiwan.

In the 60's, Karate was way popular.

In the 70's, Tae Kwan Do started to be popular.

Sad to say, TKD is still the most popular MA in both China and Taiwan.

I was brought up in the old way. I have studied Chinese medicine, history, literature, philosophy, and CMA the old way. There are not a lot of people like me anywhere. Sad to say again.

If there is an old exam for minister or general posts, I will pass them with flying colors. Let's say 20 years ago.

Maybe somebody may share how the (traditional) TMA is like now in Japan or Nippon.

[SPJ]

In the old China, there were private tutors that teach literature (Wen) and Martial Arts (Wu).

There were exams from local levels all the way to the capital/national levels. If you pass them, you will be awarded a postion/post at the government.

Wen Shiou Wu Bei. (Study literature/history/medicine etc and ready your fighting skills)

For a martial artist, you need to study history, strategy, psychology, medicine, and everything about fighting and how to be a right/just person etc.

The exam may be open hand combat, wrestling, archery, spear, broad sword, etc.

The testing official will give a topic and all the contesting pupils will compete. All have to pass certain qualifications first.

Which means that you have to study for years to know what you are doing and acquire necessary skills. body and endurance building not the least. horsemanship and more.

The other day, I ran into a Praying Mantis teacher from Shandong, China. He gave up his teaching and practicing and become a plumber working in Chinese community in east LA county.

He vividly recalled his memory with his teacher when young.

It is not necessary to revive the old way.

Enough to know that there were more serious studies and commitments in the old days.

So the thing is that there are fewer and fewer students and teachers that "do" things the old way.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by SPJ

Sad to say, TKD is still the most popular MA in both China and Taiwan.



Can you verify with any source that TKD is the most popular in China? Hard to accept.

[SPJ]

In Taiwan, there are TKD and Wushu clubs from high school to college. There are competitions and demonstrations. MA is studied as extra curriculum. There are private schools, city and county Wushu teams and dragon dance clubs, too.

There are more young students involved in TKD. Karate is not as popular as before.

My brother had a Kuo Shu Guan in Pan Chiao, Taipei county in early 90's. He taught Tai Ji Push Hands, Tai Ji Qin Na and Wu Dang Qi Gong. He had to close the school, due to lack of students. He also taught in Taiwan's Air Force Academy for a short while. He was invited to Japan a number of times.

In China, the story is more varied.

There are still a lot of private schooling as in centuries ago. But the number is decreasing.

The government changed policies several times.

MA is included as part of physical education from high school to university.

There are research committee formed in every province.

These are all good trends in terms of preservation of a dying art.

Wushu as a gym competition is encouraged. The acceptance is not that great. The old schools including Moi have dubious views about this.

If there are more students involved in TKD than other Wushu, I read it in a couple of reports in Chinese media. I do not know how good the reports are.

Actually, the most popular thing may be San Da or San Sou right now. Free fighting, free forms. Good or bad, I do not know. :confused:

[jungle-mania]

I agree that karate this days is like overly simplified CMA, but CMA is overly complicated. But I have seen very good fighters from both arts, but alot more lousy ones from both too. I seen too many karatekas obsessed with getting the points and CMA practitioners trying to learn everything under the sun and mastering none.

Me, I am a sanda fighter and I enjoy kicking their ass. And when I do find someone from either arts kicking my ass, it is a great feeling knowing that there are awesome guys out there championing the 2 arts. I say awesome, coz it is really hard to master TMAs and making it effective.

[SPJ]

Good points.

Good perspectives.

Sanda JM.