Anti-Chin Na?

[CaptinPickAxe]

I just picked up a copy of "Shaolin Chin Na" by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming. I was wondering if there are any books on Anti-Chin Na? I was going over some of the locks on my Mom's boyfriend, and got to thinking. If I made the mistake of letting myself be put in these locks, how would I go about getting out of these. Mainly the ones where you have the arm locked behind the body like in White Crane Bores the Bush.

[Starchaser107]

yeah there are reversals and reversals of reversals,
if ppl know what they're doing it can go on for a while...
beautiful to watch though. i dunno if there are books dealing with reversals specifically, once you have a comprehensive understanding of chin na, reversals should come intuitively though, but u gotta know it like you know your name , and you gotta know how it feels being used on you and you using it on other body types.

[IronFist]

I think Wing Lam has a video in their Eagle Claw series called "Breaking Locks Fist" form or something like that. I don't know anything about it, but my point is there are probably techniques devised somewhere to get out of locks. The book didn't show any counters?

[CaptinPickAxe]

no. its a comprehensive (as ****) overview of Chin Na and its applications and theories

A great book, BTW.

[count]

I can't recommend any good books for you. But don't over complicate joint locking techniques. Quite simply, there are only 2 ways to apply joint locking techniques. Either shorten the distance in between 2 joints or lengthen it. Obviously, the counter or defense is to do the opposite. When someone tries to shorten the distance you lengthen the distance. But once a good "chin na" man has the joint locked, you're done.


Joint locks are only one small part of Chin Na.

[Shaolinlueb]

reversal for chin na is another chin na, thats just to keep it easy.

[Unmatchable]

check these out:

www.bath-taichi.co.uk/video/pushhands1.wmv

www.bath-taichi.co.uk/video/pushhands2.wmv

www.bath-taichi.co.uk/video/pushhands3.wmv

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
reversal for chin na is another chin na, thats just to keep it easy.

This is correct. The techniques for reversing chin na should be taught within chin na.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Since Chin Na counters Chin Na, what would be a good counter to White Crane Bores the Bush?

[Vash]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
Since Chin Na counters Chin Na, what would be a good counter to White Crane Bores the Bush?

Probably "White Eyebrow Plows the Boar." :p :eek: :cool: :D

On another note, Chin Na bows before the awesome power of Tui Te! (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0965008584/qid=1085968024/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/104-6682440-0565543?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
Since Chin Na counters Chin Na, what would be a good counter to White Crane Bores the Bush?

I hear a lot of things, not just white cranes, bore president Bush :D

Seriously though, can you describe the move?

[CaptinPickAxe]

you grab the fingers pushing them back. As you step in, you push the elbow up and and force the arm behind thier back. the other hand grabs the hair or the trap or the neck or so one. Basically you have thier arm behind their back and another hand free to grab specific points.

heres a pic:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/094087136X/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-1964916-5644943#reader-link

[joedoe]

I see.

Well, a lot of the chin na counters are based on acting before the lock has been completed. To get out of that particular hold once it is sunk in, expect to lose some hair :) If you can act beforehand, ideally you want to avoid getting your fingers locked, otherwise reverse the lock before they grab hold of your hair by stepping around and freeing the arm (in terms of the picture, the guy should step clockwise).

[Oso]

as with any lock...don't let him get that far. :)

it is a good book, go back to his first book on the subject

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0865680124/qid=1085970743/sr=1-17/ref=sr_1_17/103-2767514-1458222?v=glance&s=books

and he talks about basic dissolving skills to escape earlier


otherwise:

step through with your right leg, box hips and attempt to face him

your arm is being torqued that direction and it will help alleviate the stress and maybe he'll slip enough for you to get it out

[Phrost]

I own that book.

[CaptinPickAxe]

great book right, phrost. I plan on picking up Taiji Chin Na after I spend some time with this one...Any input as to how to escape said move if your unlucky enough to have it applied to you?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
you grab the fingers pushing them back. As you step in, you push the elbow up and and force the arm behind thier back. the other hand grabs the hair or the trap or the neck or so one. Basically you have thier arm behind their back and another hand free to grab specific points.

heres a pic:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/094087136X/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-1964916-5644943#reader-link


I may be wrong, but I think in that case I'd probably throw him over my shoulder or go into a roll if he didn't have control of my spine....chin na counters chin na...yes...but so do other things...I guess it would depend on where and how he was positioned exactly after he executed his move

[joedoe]

Originally posted by blooming lotus



I may be wrong, but I think in that case I'd probably throw him over my shoulder or go into a roll if he didn't have control of my spine....chin na counters chin na...yes...but so do other things...I guess it would depend on where and how he was positioned exactly after he executed his move

Sorry, I am having trouble picturing this counter. So your opponent locks your fingers and locks your arm up your back. How would you throw them over your shoulder or execute a roll from there?

[CaptinPickAxe]

especially w/o breaking every bone in the locked arm...its designed to break bone and tear ligament form bone...I think I'd tap out...or beg for the safety of my arm.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I've been practicing two chin na moves and racking my brain on how to get out of them. Its fairly simple stopping the advancing application (@50% speed, and with the theory Count pointed out), but still no ideas as how to get out except for profusely appoligizing to the superior Chin Na practioner. I've decided I'm gonna work White Crane Bores the Bush and Small Finger Hook and thier variations untill I've gotten them pretty good. Adding two at a time, untill I'm done with the book.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by joedoe


Sorry, I am having trouble picturing this counter. So your opponent locks your fingers and locks your arm up your back. How would you throw them over your shoulder or execute a roll from there?

don't have alot of time now, but like I said, it would depend on where opponents balance was...maybe you could get access to something else..............again, pending where he was..everyone executes a little differently so you use what's available

[SevenStar]

in THAT pic?

there are three parts to any throw's execution - and that guy doesn't have any of them accomplished. PLUS, he's in a compromising position:

1. his head is going backwards - his balance is gone

2. the locker has full balance.

3. there is too much distance between them

4. the lockee doesn't have any type of leverage established

5. the angle is wrong for a shoulder throw.

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, be ready to lose some hair.

This is a hammerlock, basically, from wrestling. And in order to get out, you're going to have to turn and face him as you try and straighten your arm.

Which way do you turn? The good news is this one's obvious. You turn in the direction that takes the pressure off the arm :D

[Starchaser107]

:rolleyes: why are you even arguing with her...

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Unmatchable
check these out:

www.bath-taichi.co.uk/video/pushhands1.wmv

www.bath-taichi.co.uk/video/pushhands2.wmv

www.bath-taichi.co.uk/video/pushhands3.wmv

These are great. Thanks. Poor dude getting chin na'd right away on the first one. :p

[Shooter]

bunch of kung fu people trying to steal wrestling's hammer-lock. :mad:

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
If I made the mistake of letting myself be put in these locks, how would I go about getting out of these.

I know you asked for a book... but if you're looking for some training on this, finding a push hands group (per those mpegs) may be useful. Especially the Chen style groups often put alot of emphasis on neutralizing these sorts of attacks. Many of the "silk reeling" drills teach an excellent mechanic for this.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Shooter
bunch of kung fu people trying to steal wrestling's hammer-lock. :mad:

rofl :D

Man, some of those remarks on MMA.TV are sad. It seems these people sincerely believe no one thought to spar or wrestle until this century.

[Merryprankster]

bunch of kung fu people trying to steal wrestling's hammer-lock.

LOL!!

I'm going to steal snake creeps down to make up for it!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Christopher M

It seems these people sincerely believe no one thought to spar or wrestle until this century.

They didn't....did they?

[Christopher M]

No. Since opposable thumbs did not evolve until the early 1920s, it was simply impossible for there to be earlier forms of grappling.

[Shooter]

I'm going to steal snake creeps down to make up for it!

Just make sure you call it what it is. Snake-creeps-down = ankle-pick BULL$#IT!! snake-creeps-down = Snake-creeps-down

[Shooter]

Christopher M, I love the reverse-myth paradox those idiots subject themselves to.

They want so badly to believe TCC is a weak-azzed 'style'. When they find out it's neither weak nor a style, their whole argument disintegrates. They believe themselves open-minded when they're actually more close-minded than the 'TMAers' they accuse of being close-minded.

good times... :p

[SevenStar]

okay, back to being serious for a sec - what do you mean it's not a style?

[CaptinPickAxe]

I didn't start this thread to listen to MMA vs. TMA bull****! I asked a question, and you haven't contributed anything except, "Stealing from wrestling". Get over it and contibute to the thread or get the **** out...plain and simple.

[Shooter]

SevenStar wrote:

what do you mean it's not a style?

Something I posted in the mma.tv thread;

As I've said many times here and elsewhere; Tai Chi Chuan isn't a 'style'. There are as many styles of TCC as there are players. It's a methodology and a process more than it is a specific/stylistic way of 'fighting'. It's a set of movement, and energy-management principles. There are no techniques in TCC.

[Shooter]

no, CaptinPickAxe. I've applied the MMA-vs-TMA chin-na on this thread. Are you saying you don't know the Anti-Chin Na?

I'll tell you then. You have to exit the lock before the person applying the lock closes the window.

There are diferent approaches to chin-na though. One idea is that a lock isn't locked until you've closed the window yourself. IOW, there isn't supposed to be an escape since you've entered too deeply to go back.

This approach is predicated off of the idea that the person who is applying the lock is flowing complimentary to their victim rather than contriving and forcing a lock counter to the flow.

[SevenStar]

theoretically, can't you say that about all MA?

[Shooter]

yes and no

[CaptinPickAxe]

Thanks for not putting up a stink, and thank you for your take on it. I really want all MAs point of view, just with out most of the politics (you can't expect to have absolutely no politics, some styles don't agree)

[PHILBERT]

Tape 1 (http://store.martialartsmart.net/vid72joinloc.html) and Tape 2 (http://store.martialartsmart.net/vid72joinloc1.html)

The tapes cover an entire 2 man form of 72 joint locks. The entire 2 man form consists of being put into a joint lock, then countering a joint lock with a joint lock. If you had acted quickly, you could of gotten both for $20 cause they were offered in recent issues of Kung Fu/Tai Chi for $10 a piece.

[CaptinPickAxe]

If I had known of the sale, I would of picked them up. Its a good deal.

[PHILBERT]

Yeah, each issue offers the $10 deal. It wasn't the current issue, or the issue before it (the cop issue). Rather it was the 2 issues before the cop issue. Just keep reading, you'll probably find them again.

[mantis108]

I haven't gotten this book but I have the Taiji one. Frankly, I wasn't too impressed by the Taiji Chin Na book by Dr Yang.

It is as if the TJCN book's intension was to justisfy the form. It's like "oh, look you can do this and that, like this and like that." This in my mind is not a good way to explain the form, the combinations, nor the technique involved. Granted you could say that his knowledge is amazingly rich (pun intented). But he didn't cover the main thing which is how to drill them in the Taiji way EFFECTIVELY.

It is also the same with this book at least it seems in the introduction and index. I got the impression that this is more of a anatomy of Chin Na lock techniques. I am sure it would help to understand the techniques categorically better but would it help to understand the more crucial aspect such as real time applications? I believe the failure of today's Kung Fu teaching is that many teachers tend to look at the tree and have forgotten that there exists a forrest. The fact that we are close or rather made closer to a tree doesn't mean that We are out of the woods. :(

BTW, I agreed with MP's counter to the move providing that it's done earlier on. The stage in the picture is too deep already. Any attempt at that stage would only give the experienced Chin Na exponent more information/handle to swith to further controlling techniques perhaps even ground control/grappling [please don't egg me :D :P ]. Being choke out is pretty imminant there. Just some thoughts.

Mantis108

[blooming lotus]

first you argue with me for weks that chin na is even valid, then you discount my advice, because obviously you're all learned practioners....which is of course why the question was posted in the first place....do a freakin reality check...because you can laugh together and together you are acting more and more egocentric and foolish..................

[joedoe]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
first you argue with me for weks that chin na is even valid, then you discount my advice, because obviously you're all learned practioners....which is of course why the question was posted in the first place....do a freakin reality check...because you can laugh together and together you are acting more and more egocentric and foolish..................

Hang on, I thought the argument was about the validity of dim mak, not chin na. And for the record, I never got involved in that argument.

[SevenStar]

BL stated in that same thread that she thinks dim mak and chin na are one and the same. She also says that the founder of wing chun also founded dim mak. Of course, she's never provided evidence for either...

[Chang Style Novice]

Not only are chin na and dim mak the same, but striking and grappling are identical. Furthermore, both (or rather, the one) was invented by Benjamin Franklin in 1973 at the request of the Emperor Constantine.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by SevenStar
BL stated in that same thread that she thinks dim mak and chin na are one and the same. She also says that the founder of wing chun also founded dim mak. Of course, she's never provided evidence for either...

OK, I can accept that there are crossover elements in each set of skills, but if they are the same then why were they given different names?

[blooming lotus]

:rolleyes:

please see other current trolling threads...you're mising a good opp..................


Ps...pending where you're comming from, a grappling move is deffinately a strike with alternate apllication............IE: elements of hsing Yi...

Dimmak vs chin na....same concepts of points and manipulation of, different apps....but crossovers do occur and when you're studying several arts and develop that personal style, no doubt without you even realising the morph, your dimmak would be easily perceived as chin na...............and thats from chinese locals....

cheers

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
... where you're comming from, a grappling move is deffinately a strike with alternate apllication ...
Grappling moves are strikes with alternate application? Really?

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Dimmak vs chin na....same concepts of points and manipulation of, different apps....but crossovers do occur and when you're studying several arts and develop that personal style, no doubt without you even realising the morph, your dimmak would be easily perceived as chin na...............and thats from chinese locals...In the other thread you said dim mak is chin na, not dim mak is similar to chin na. So you're changing your definition now?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
:rolleyes:

please see other current trolling threads...you're mising a good opp..................


Ps...pending where you're comming from, a grappling move is deffinately a strike with alternate apllication............IE: elements of hsing Yi...

Dimmak vs chin na....same concepts of points and manipulation of, different apps....but crossovers do occur and when you're studying several arts and develop that personal style, no doubt without you even realising the morph, your dimmak would be easily perceived as chin na...............and thats from chinese locals....

cheers

Yes, I can accept that when you train the two skills and develop your own style etc. they can look the same, but dim mak is not chin na and chin na is not dim mak. They may look the same but they are two very different things.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
..............and thats from chinese locals....


please bring one of those locals to your PC and have them post here - maybe they can verify your statement that dim mak and wingchun have the same founder...

[CaptinPickAxe]

Dian Mai man or Dim Mak can is an element of Chin Na. Dim Mak equates to "pressing the artery or vein". It is, however, not one in the same with Qin Na.
Which is "Seizing and Controlling"...

This is info that I read (and adapted) off of page 1&2 in "Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin Na" by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming. See BL thats how you provide proof.;)

[Tak]

4 elements of qin na:
Locking the joints
Splitting the muscles
Sealing the breath
Attacking the vital points

Attacking the vital points is the "dim mak" component, although not in the sense of pressing a knockout button above the left eyebrow.

[Mutant]

First off forget the about leaning chin na or any kind of anti-chin na from books, thats something you need to feel and practice hands on w/ a competent instructor. Everything you need to know in order to counter/defeat a particular lock lies within a thorough understanding of that lock and the physiology behind it. You may be able to get some ideas from books or videos but your chin na will suk so why bother...

If for some reason you don't have access to good chin na people to learn from, which i assume is the case due to the nature of your question, try to find some good small-circle jujitsu or aikido club to cross-train with.

The suggestion of joining a tai chi push hands group is a good one.

I will also add that joining a good wing chun club would also be very benefitial cross-training as wing chun is essentially a form of anti-chin na (as well as having many other functions) and chi sau is great anti-chin na training. It is nearly impossible to apply a chin na lock on a good wing chun sifu, even though they don't practice chin na, it is the antithesis of chin na and a sort of key to those locks.

[Meat Shake]

I beg to differ. If you have a competent understanding of entries and standing locks already, simply looking at a picture of a lock and getting a feel for it with a friend is a fine way to learn it. Just figure out how the lock works, what nuances make it harder to escape, then work entries to that lock at increasing speed until you can successfully pull it off full speed on a resisting opponent. I dont remember who, but someone on here had told me not too long ago something about how its "impossible to get a standing figure 4 lock on a competent opponent"...
I use figure 4 locks all the time in conjuction with a chop or simply a T-stance. Its all about learning to work your way up from joint to joint.

[CaptinPickAxe]

So far I'm not having any problems picking it up. Its just takes trial and error and someone to practice on. I also let him practice on me so I can practice my blocking and counters.

[Vash]

BAH! Everyone knows you can't learn GENUINE TMA from taking techniques from books/videos, ESPECIALLY if you have a decent bit of working MA experience and tend to work on an increasing scale of resistance with an equally experienced training partner.

[Shadowboxer]

Ahh, but we do practice some chin-na and how to get out of it. You can keep adding pieces into your chi sao "progressions". The key to not getting locked is detecting the energy shift with your sensitivity, and by energy shift I mean someone's intention to attempt a lock from rolling or whatever.

I don't know if you could learn the fine details of chin-na from pics. Doesn't seem like you could perceive the "energies" (is the left hand pushing or pulling, what about the right, or are they squeezing together, maybe one is rotating to increase the pressure and take out the slack while the other is static, etc.) I suppose they could write that part out. Best to feel it though.

[Meat Shake]

Thats what I just said basically. :)
You have to train the techniques, and you have to have a competent partner to train them with, that way you can say "Ok, heres the lock. Can you get out?"
If they can, look at how. Continue adjusting the lock until they cannot escape, then figure a few entries or situations where the lock can be used, and drill them in this way. Continue speeding up the drill and adding more resistance until you can apply it on someone who doesnt want it to be applied.

[Shadowboxer]

Interesting, because I was kind of disagreeing with you. :D We practice Chin-na in Wing Chun. We don't put the lock on or kind of on and see if you can get out. I'm practicing my chin-na and I want to make you tap. The key is to stop it before it starts by perceiving the energy shift or the "attempt" to lock. Sometimes I'll chek myself and ask if they can get out just to make sure I'm not just using muscle and it's the most efficient it can be, that kind of thing...

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SevenStar


please bring one of those locals to your PC and have them post here - maybe they can verify your statement that dim mak and wingchun have the same founder...

they wouldn't understand what thw f*ck we were on about....what the hell makes you think you are so important to trouble them anyway????????????

joe doe...dwai...that's what I thought but when I demonstrated my dim mak ....so many folks from local henan to taiwanese ex-forsensics go "oh...great chin-na"?????....


cpa.......have read the book and have had better info elsewhere...yes...he's grat...but my teacher was better. .....;)

Ps..shadow bpxer...chin na is not a form from the wingchun system....so what you're rally saying is tha5t practiced dimmak and it can be transrelated to chin na because of apllicative similarities......................

[SevenStar]

Out of everyone in china, all of them would consider it troubling them to spend 20 mins checking out this one thread? Come off it. That's just one more cop out to prevent posting some evidence of your claims.

you can't get anyone to help

you your fogrot to get a digital camera

the dosposable worked, but now you can't scan the pics

you've seen too much information in the past several months to remember where you saw the info

IT in "china" sucks, and you can't stay on the web long enough to find info, yet you can always manage to post here...

we're troubling the locals

How many more can you think of?

[shaolin kungfu]

BL gives me gas

[SevenStar]

you watch dexter's laboratory?

[shaolin kungfu]

no, not really. Why?

[blooming lotus]

7.....a ha....seen it...point????mad juvineiolle scientist???...got it...empathising....


It is serious;y that crazy here.some teachers work 14 dys straight.students also.... foreign expersts have the luxury of a day off every now and then, but I'll be dammned if I 'm gnna tke their precious several few spare moments to satisfy some some some over-zealous trolls................welcvome to the real internastional world of business...as much as I like to visit here, none of you are more important than my current project...and for now , tha means getting my students through their tests with the highest possible marks..................sorry...reality hits again............i think it's one o' those.had to be be here to understand scenarios..........se ya after my break.......;)

[CaptinPickAxe]

cpa.......have read the book and have had better info elsewhere...yes...he's grat...but my teacher was better. .....

I call bullsh!t...provide some lineage links or some martial background...oh, wait. Nevermind, its in vain. "I don't have time" or "Your not worth it" or "I have an overactive bladder so I spew B.S. all the time"

Hey BL...BULLSH!T

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu
no, not really. Why?

because of the "BL gives me gas" thing. In one episode, Mandark (the bad guy) was with his hippie parents who forced him to go on a camping trip with them, because they thought it would be good for him...Mandark despises nature - he only sees value in technology. When his mom said to him, "Honey, come partake of nature's bounty with us!" his reply was "Nature's bounty gives me gas"

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus


cpa.......have read the book and have had better info elsewhere...yes...he's grat...but my teacher was better.....


Not if you think you would throw the guy in the pic over your shoulder while in that lock...

[Chang Style Novice]

D@MN this is hilarious.

WAY better than Ralek.

The best part is that everyone knows she's full of it, yet they continue to engage her. Truly the mark of a magnificent troll.

[Starchaser107]

Obviously someone here is just straight up cuckoo (http://www.ciadvertising.org/SA/fall_02/adv382j/balongnecker/life/cocoapuffs.jpg) , does it really make sense to have a convo with someone so obviously OUT THERE (http://freehalloweenscreensavers.net/downloads/ltthanks.jpg) .

just forget abt. it and don't waste your time, they (http://looneytunes2.warnerbros.com/games/img/games_highscore_marvin.gif) just wont get it.

[SevenStar]

yeah, definitely a master...

[Starchaser107]

ya a Master (http://www.boomersfunnies.com/Pictures/Master%20Baiter.jpg)

[Meat Shake]

"Interesting, because I was kind of disagreeing with you. We practice Chin-na in Wing Chun. We don't put the lock on or kind of on and see if you can get out. I'm practicing my chin-na and I want to make you tap. The key is to stop it before it starts by perceiving the energy shift or the "attempt" to lock. Sometimes I'll chek myself and ask if they can get out just to make sure I'm not just using muscle and it's the most efficient it can be, that kind of thing..."

Yeah, the reason I ask my partner to try and escape, is that when you learn from a picture the nuances to the lock are sometimes a little hard to figure out... Trial and error is the best teacher for that. Im not experienced with sticky hands, but it always seemed like a useful tool to me.

[Mutant]

well if you have a competent background in locks and are looking for some type of manual to spur some ideas, that would be different than being a relative newbie trying to find your way thru the woods on your own. its hard to comment when you really don't know somebody, but i still submit that you generally can't learn good chin na from books or videos. i've never been much fur book learnin ma-self, chorkle :p

if youre locked, youre locked and there's not much you can do about it but tap or try to take some pressure off it, if its a real good lock then you should be in too much pain to think straight. you could hope the guy screws up in the next transition (and doesnt break you too bad) cause he can't remain holding you in a standing lock all day and then you may have another chance to counter.

if youre in the begining stages of being locked (before its applied to the point where where youre seeing god) then there are many ways to counter both actively using your other hand, your body, position, rotation etc, and passively, using subtle pressures, energy and positions staying just ahead of the lock.

by further developing sensitivity training by practicing chi sau or push hands you are far less likely to get into a chin na type lock in the first place as you'd feel the trap coming and respond/adjust long before it got that far. thats what i'd recommend training if youre concerned about such things.

dee dee, yoo are not to play with my ro'bots...

[Starchaser107]

oh yeah, next consideration...
two things

in my experience with joint locks there are 2 factors that can at times come into play, no matter how good someones joint locking skills are

the first being

flexability ..either double jointedness or just above average joint flexability

the second being

threshold of pain

these factors sometimes come into play making it difficult to apply a lock , simply put not all body types are the same.
so it's good to be verse on a good amount of locks so u can switch up...

on the opposing end, it may be good to practice limbering up and being able to withstand a bit more pain than you have been accustomed.
it might not save you totally from a good joint lock, but , it can at times throw someone off and put you in a better position.

i agree with what some ppl are saying here though. usually its better to counter a lock before it is completed . If completed it is not impossible to escape but extremely difficult if its done properly.

[Meat Shake]

Yeah.. forgot to mention flexibility. We have an aikido guy that trains with my shuai chiao group on occasion, and that bugger is **** near impossible to tap with a lock. Hes just too flexible, I keep bending and bending his joints, and they just keep on bending. Its strange. I also choked him for a good minute and he didnt pass out... We have decided that hes the undead.
And Im sure that the choke works, because I tapped gene with it the match just before hand.
Another time I got him with a figure 4 lock on the ground and bent his arm all the way to make his elbow touch the mat... stil no tap.
:confused:
:confused:

[CaptinPickAxe]

You gotta pelt the undead with a wrestling shoe...that will make them lose conciousness. EIther that or drop him mid throw...;)

[Meat Shake]

You know that we all get dropped on our heads every now and then.
:)

[CaptinPickAxe]

mostly on wet-mat nights. Is that still going on?

[Tak]

Originally posted by SevenStar
In one episode, Mandark (the bad guy) was with his hippie parents who forced him to go on a camping trip with them, because they thought it would be good for him...Mandark despises nature - he only sees value in technology. When his mom said to him, "Honey, come partake of nature's bounty with us!" his reply was "Nature's bounty gives me gas"
Or Futurama:
"All in all, this is one day that Mittens the kitten won't soon forget!"
"Kittens give Morbo gas."

[Meat Shake]

wet mat nights? Only after it rains.

There is talk of sharing space with a karate dojo, but Im not sure. The karate sensei is actually a fantastic striker... Some of the best punch kick game Ive ever seen. He trained with yamamoto from what I understand...

Its tuesdays and thursdays now.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Did Kirk recommend that southside boxing gym to you?

[Shadowboxer]

Yeah, I took Aikido for about 2.5 years. They were all about pins and locks so you are constantly having them applied to you. You get more resistant to them. You relax while it's being applied and it stretches your tendons or something-gives you more range until you have to tap, which is a good thing now. I have more time to counter before it's fully set on me.

One of the senior students would also let you choke him and he would tell us relax and you can just keep exhaling slowly to give yourself more time to escape. Crazy I tell 'ya. He was a stout guy though.

[Christopher M]

You're so **** neutral it makes me sick.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SevenStar


Not if you think you would throw the guy in the pic over your shoulder while in that lock...

I have considered it again...and I guess I 'll wait until I have a good sparring partner arrive in a week or so...but I did say I could be wrong, and I also said that I'd use what was available...If I couldn't get it away, I'd do something else.every move has a counter if you can exploit its' weakness


totally agree with the stretching point.I do several wrist and finger stretches everyday....I think it makes a huge difference from everything to that threshold to the amount of pushups I can comfortabley do

[scotty1]

hey 7*, the three essentials of a good throw - were they distance, leverage and balance?

[SevenStar]

off balance (kazushi), fit in/entry (tskuri) and execution (kake).

[blooming lotus]

exactly my point..pending experience of executioner, their balance will vary and so will their strength of application and their final pos...........it's not the be all/end all though because there is ALWAYS another move...........

[No_Know]

Practicing Chin-Na with a partner sounds a bit like Jiujitsu. You develop a tolerance, but full use leaves people broken. It cannot practically be used fully on a partner. It must be theoretical to address the full extent, it seems.

I recall Chin-Na having four aspects similar to what has been mentioned in this thread. If there is a section like Sealing the vein or artery I can see how that might be thought of as Dim Mak (especially if that's what it's called in some Chinese dialect). However, the non-Chin-Na Dim Mak strikes to muscles to affect points within. It seems at least Not totally blood flow regulation by vein/artery.

Count said if shortening lengthen, if lengthening shorten. There is a basic thought that that is good. Yet, it seems to me that Opposites actually work against you. It tightens stuff, which increases likeliness of damage. If they lengthen, then extend faster throwing off their timing, but they can catch-up, so twist simultaneously to throw-off the angle of their attempted technique--move the joint; not the limbs~.

But breaking a lock or thwarting an attempted lock in at least some cases might be considered reversal. Keeping Chin-Na as seize-control at joints, this is Chin-Na on Chin-Na.

Anti-Chin-Na might actually be, complete, avoidance of seizure or getting grabbed.

There are locks that are basically unbeatable if you do not adjust your body. Retreat can only go so far. Avoid them completing the technique. Be aware that they might have done that technique knowing how it is resisted. As you reverse or break or prevent the hold, they could be waiting for that with you entering their actual primary lock, to which you run~ (in)to, thinking/proud that you are avoiding the first that you perceived.

Chin-Na cannot be done from a book? At it's most basic it is joint manipulation incorporating momentum and various leverages. It is not necessarily static. Bend the joint the wrong way, flex or extend extremely or subtally(twist). You can figure out it a lot on your own by realizing how you bend and do not bend.

Also, damage can be effected by bending at least some joints the most flexible way, beyond it's current comfortable flexability. More than what you are told might be required. Think. Comprehend.

Be well.

I No_Know

[count]

A very good post No_Know, to be sure you're thinking. I once asked a Jiu Jitsu instuctor about his joint locking tachniques. He told me "we have over 500 different joint locks". I laughed and said, "that must take quite a while to learn".

I did say shorten or lengthen. But here's the key. I'm talking about the distance between and that doesn't require tension of a muscle or limb. In fact, you are correct that tension is the last thing you want to pay attention to, unless you like pain. But it's all in the middle of the nine bows that requires lengthening. If you understand the nine bows you understand every kind of joint lock and every counter. If you practice 500 different techniques that's one and a half years just to learn (one a day). How long would it take to know them until you could use them every time?

BTW, I believe cavity press or hit and sealing the breath might also fall in the category of dim mak techniques.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
exactly my point..pending experience of executioner, their balance will vary and so will their strength of application and their final pos...........it's not the be all/end all though because there is ALWAYS another move...........

I fully agree with that - d@mn...he11 just froze over...

but of the three things I listed, NONE of them are present in that pic - he would not have goine over your shoulder. MP posted an escape to it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by count
A very good post No_Know, to be sure you're thinking. I once asked a Jiu Jitsu instuctor about his joint locking tachniques. He told me "we have over 500 different joint locks". I laughed and said, "that must take quite a while to learn".


jiu jitsu, or jujutsu?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by count
If you understand the nine bows you understand every kind of joint lock and every counter. You might understand them, but you won't necessarily be able to use them. You have to practice them over the long term to be able to develop the ability to feel what is happening. With only the intellectual understanding and not the feedback that comes from long time practice, you will be hard pressed to apply or counter the locks in time for them to be effective. You will still be thinking of the counter by the time your joint is snapped.

[count]

Knifefighter,
I love you man, but you are showing an uncharacteristic flair for the obvious.:D

SevenStar,
Does it matter? The instructor actually told me exactly 567 joint locks. LOL! Does that make it a better system because another only has 402 joint locks? The real issue is joint locks are gifts in the first place. Don't go looking and than try to pick one of 567. Learn a natural and relaxed way to move and don't go against the force.

[Toby]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I fully agree with that - d@mn...he11 just froze over...That's because BL twisted her argument until it was correct. Originally she was saying "I could get out of that particular position by throwing him". Then, people started saying no, that's locked in and the victim has none of the prerequisites for a throw. Then, BL finally states a generic absolute truth so you're forced to agree. In her mind, she was right all along. Hell, even a chin na neophyte like me can see there's no way that guy's getting out of that lock by throwing the locker over his shoulder. Especially if the guy were 90lb BL.

[joedoe]

To be honest, I don't think BL looked at the picture we were talking about before she made her first post. She was just throwing out some generic chin na counters that might apply.

[blooming lotus]

there was a picture?????.forgive me.......guess I've been busy after all....

[Starchaser107]

lol...

lotus iz da illest.

[Toby]

BL,

Not only was there a picture in CPA's post, but you quoted his post including the link to the pic in your 1st post on the thread. You also quoted 7*'s reference to the pic in another of your posts. You referred to the book that the pic is on the cover of when you said that your teacher was better than Dr Jwing-Ming Yang. The word "pic" or "picture" was mentioned 9 times in this thread specifically in reference to the picture in question before you "suddenly clicked". :rolleyes:

Is it any wonder I consider you so stupid? You're always off discussing something random that bears no relation to anything anyone else is discussing. Nothing at all to do with being busy. It's more ignorance, laziness, or just plain trolling genius.

[Starchaser107]

you know you've attained celebrity status when someone cant decide wither your work is ignorance or genius;)

[No_Know]

I think that the so called the pic (ture) is on page two of this thread. I saw a reply of one called MerryPrankster's, recently mentioned by one called Sevenstar to be there. One called MerryPrankster's mention seems consistant with what I gathered was a way to relive from or reverse-ish the basic form of this lock.

The hair grab is an added effect (less if at all, effective on completely bald, some bald or extremely shorthaired persons). If effectual it might hinder the willingness to try to escape.
The turning into the opponent to relieve the arm bar works much better in the cooperation arena of a professional wrestling match by professional wrestlers, I might think. But also works better if that right hand is not raised up the spine trying to connect it with the neck area. The person in the picture seems to me to be off his heels at least. Harder to maneuver-ish.[/color]

It seemed as though (and pain might be involved; weigh the brief pain to get out versus the consistancy of pain of being kept-in the hold; or what they have in mind at the end of maneuvering you with the hold)As they are perpendicular facing, your left hand to secure or press the hair grabbing hand; now take your feet completely off of the ground with the intention of putting them back down (This tactic (useable perhaps also for from-behind bear hugs) might allow the leverage to step back with your right foot across the opponents front (at this point you might actually be able to stopper the opponents ****hest foot (depending on the spread)with your right foot toes to your initial front; and weight shift/(with) hip roll to Knock your opponent back-ish (undetermined results); your basically approaching the rebound of a bounce. It bends your arm perhaps at least a little more, but if person is going to keep the grip they might bend something too. In the chaos or flux of joints you act. Taking the advantage of action-ish. And in the rebound part there is in effect a loosening of the bending of your arm.

Keep your knee bent in case you get attemped groin shot from opponent's right leg/foot. Change the bends in your knees to shift your even slightly bent body (hips behind heels, shoulders fore of toes)~ Your Knee bending / weight shifting (To T'ai Ch Ch'uan types) gets you facing behind the initial front of your opponent. This might be enough to straighten your initially bent arm (I recommend that you try to lift your Elbow to over your spine or to make an even line with your shoulders, and pull~ your arm under) You can still be held by the fingers and so (needle-and-thread) still caught though with fewer locks in place; however, if you maintained the press to the hair grab hand, then you might be in or close to a position to twist the grab under (This might can get him on his toes with pain; if you step your right foot out/back some, again, you might can straighten person's right arm and lock out the elbow at least perhaps the shoulder, by controlling the wrist (with a further duck of your head while rotating towards opponent then a rise). At this point he might keep the hair grab but be in pain and you are bent facing him from his front right. you you are standing away from him at his front right with his turned under hand...If you were doing this with one called Yang Jwing Ming and got even nearly this far, I would think he might yield and turn himself to keep from your locking-out his right arm you also would need at least a strong grip of his fist to keep him from strengthing/techniquing/twisting out of your feared-for-your-life-struggle-against-the-pain sweaty grasp).

I No_Know

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by count
Knifefighter,
I love you man, but you are showing an uncharacteristic flair for the obvious.:D Maybe.. but sometimes it's hard to tell what is obvious and what isn't. Afterall, people are discussing how to counter a move that someone would be hard pressed to pull off on a resisting opponent over the age of 13 with a bit of strength or athletic ability.

[count]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Maybe.. but sometimes it's hard to tell what is obvious and what isn't. Afterall, people are discussing how to counter a move that someone would be hard pressed to pull off on a resisting opponent over the age of 13 with a bit of strength or athletic ability.
:D LOL! I totally agree with you there.

[GeneChing]

The 5th strategy - Shaolin Fan Chin Na: the Art of Anti-Grabbing (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1364) by Chris Friedman

[Orion Paximus]

The 5th strategy - Shaolin Fan Chin Na: the Art of Anti-Grabbing (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1364) by Chris Friedman

We incorporate Fan Chin Na into the regular Chin Na lesson plan. It gives you a better understanding of how the Chin Na itself can fail and what mistakes not to make in addition to showing you a few outs if you're on the receiving end. I never thought that anyone wouldn't teach Chin Na this way.

[wiz cool c]

Ever heard of choosing an interesting topic to spread the love of Chinese martial arts through an interesting article?

[bawang]

why wold anyone be anti china, I love the china

[David Jamieson]

Without going back through this, did anyone ever explain to the OP what Chin Na is and that it contains the attacks and defenses within?

[Jimbo]

IMO, much of Chin Na is already difficult to apply against a person who is actually resisting and fighting you. So it's only common sense that if you're actively fighting someone, it will be very hard for them to apply Chin Na locks on you. It doesn't need to be some complex countermove/counter-countermove/counter-counter-countermove, etc., unless you're interested for arts' sake. Nobody actually fighting you will just leave their hand or arm hanging out there for you to latch on to.

Anybody can look like a joint locking magician during a demonstration, or against someone who is already submissive or too injured to resist. But try actually using it on someone who has even the slightest level of determined resistance, anger/agitation, and especially if they have a size or strength advantage over you. Various types of bodies/physiques are also more difficult to grasp, twist and joint lock than others. I'm mostly referring to the types of standing joint locks that rely on fine motor skills to apply; the type that many CMA masters like to smilingly show off at demos. Similarly, the old late 19th/early 20th century stereotype in the West of the tiny Japanese Jujutsu master easily subduing a large brute (or two or three at once) with an effortless lock (often using only one hand) was a myth and a marketing ploy created by Western Jujutsu teachers to promote 'the art of self-defense' to 'cultured' men and women, most of whom were not physically inclined.

[David Jamieson]

IMO, much of Chin Na is already difficult to apply against a person who is actually resisting and fighting you. So it's only common sense that if you're actively fighting someone, it will be very hard for them to apply Chin Na locks on you. It doesn't need to be some complex countermove/counter-countermove/counter-counter-countermove, etc., unless you're interested for arts' sake. Nobody actually fighting you will just leave their hand or arm hanging out there for you to latch on to.

Anybody can look like a joint locking magician during a demonstration, or against someone who is already submissive or too injured to resist. But try actually using it on someone who has even the slightest level of determined resistance, anger/agitation, and especially if they have a size or strength advantage over you. Various types of bodies/physiques are also more difficult to grasp, twist and joint lock than others. I'm mostly referring to the types of standing joint locks that rely on fine motor skills to apply; the type that many CMA masters like to smilingly show off at demos. Similarly, the old late 19th/early 20th century stereotype in the West of the tiny Japanese Jujutsu master easily subduing a large brute (or two or three at once) with an effortless lock (often using only one hand) was a myth and a marketing ploy created by Western Jujutsu teachers to promote 'the art of self-defense' to 'cultured' men and women, most of whom were not physically inclined.

Locks are locks. Chin Na is a wide set of practices that cover locks, seizing, breaking the locks, etc. A headlock and it's counter are both chin na. A sleeper and it's counter are china na, a collar grab and it's counter is chin na and so on. Just because the name is Chinese doesn't mean it unrealistic. You'll find in Chin Na many of the same things you find in wrestling of many traditions under many appellations. It's a lot less mysterious than one might think and if you develop your strengths here, they won't leave you when you need them.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Though chin na usually follows a debilitating strike, chin na can be an attack in itself, such as quickly locking the throat of an adversary before he strikes you. There is nothing delicate about chin na. It requires strength and timing. One of the Eagle Claw principles is to have a claw strong enough to break bone.

mickey

[David Jamieson]

I think one of the issues in regards to perception of martial arts is that there are a great deal of people who wish to gain some sort of immunity to lifes violence and indignities.

Sadly, this is not there for anyone. the greatest boxers the world has ever seen have been punched in the face more than most anyone will ever be.
The greatest, strongest, most careful warriors get decimated by someone with a better plan, or even on an off chance.

the point is to train. Train while you can and enjoy training without the ultimate price of violent encounters that can overwhelm all the skills you have developed.

Don't look for infantile things like "the best" or "a favourite" or that sort of thing. Really, because there is no such thing. There never has been, there never likey will be. Human existence has a lot of offerings and paths anyone can wander. None of them will spare you from fortunes wheel and none of them will help you avoid your own death. :)

[mickey]

More....

Much of our impressions about the chin na have been formulated by teachings coming out of Hopei Province, China, where counters are usually made against a flat fist. More than some of these techniques may not work against a standing fist. It is important to understand that these techniques that have been preserved to form a template for continued study and development. The mistake lies in thinking that the techniques represent the EPITOME of continued study and development over countless generations. Wake up already!!! The concealed lesson of Chin na practice is the study of sensitivity to the flow of energy that will allow the practitioner to adjust his locks to his opponent.

mickey

[Jimbo]

Locks are locks. Chin Na is a wide set of practices that cover locks, seizing, breaking the locks, etc. A headlock and it's counter are both chin na. A sleeper and it's counter are china na, a collar grab and it's counter is chin na and so on. Just because the name is Chinese doesn't mean it unrealistic. You'll find in Chin Na many of the same things you find in wrestling of many traditions under many appellations. It's a lot less mysterious than one might think and if you develop your strengths here, they won't leave you when you need them.

That's why I clarified that I was referring to specific types of standing locks that are more complex and require fine motor skills to accomplish. I did not imply anything about it is mysterious. I did leave open the implication that Chin Na that utilizes more gross motor skills would be far more practical. It doesn't matter how powerful a grip you've developed, try catching a punch coming at you, as many masters like to do in demonstrations. A real punch with any speed and bad intentions behind it will be nearly impossible to catch and lock. It's the way that it's often presented that is unrealistic.

It should also be clear that I wasn't picking on Chin Na because it's Chinese. I made a clear comparison between the way Chin Na and traditional Jujutsu were/are often presented. They are related, obviously. Except that Jujutsu incorporated far more ground grappling (yes, even pre-BJJ).