What are the weaknesses of BJJ/Muay Thai/Boxing (MMA?)

[IronFist]

Since "MMA" has pretty much come to mean "BJJ/Muay Thai/Boxing," what are the weaknesses of this style?

They say every style has weaknesses and strengths. From a fighting standpoint, what are its weaknesses?

[Christopher M]

Standing grappling?

[Asia]

You forgot Wrestling, Sambo and Judo. Many guys are taking up Judo now to strengthen their standing grappling.

The weaknesses I can see would be form a newbie stand point. And it would be one of the same weaknesses that plagues TMA as well. Your attention is devided and you don't specialize in any one area. The phrase, "Jack of all trades but a master of none." fits. If you look at the guys who are top in MMA you find they all come form a solid foundation first. I think before one ventures into MMA they should have a base first.

[wdl]

The biggest problem I have with MMA in relation to grappling is the obvious multiple opponent issue on the street.

Of course, if we could all throw and grapple like Ashida Kim it wouldn't be so much of a factor. :rolleyes:

-Will

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by wdl
The biggest problem I have with MMA in relation to grappling is the obvious multiple opponent issue on the street.

Could you describe what perceived problem you're alluding to here?

[Ikken Hisatsu]

yeah, if you can name an art that can reliably deal with multiple opponents, please share.

but yeah, the jack of all trades. watch the top fighters, they all focus on something. royce gracie punches like a girl so he focuses on groundwork. cro cop kicks like a mule so he focuses on stand up, same as chuck lidell. and quinton jackson, well he concentrates on slamming people and has a mouth like a sewer. I'm more of a striker than a groundfighter, so thats what I focus on (not that I disregard groundfighting of course)

[ShaolinTiger00]

Asia,

I'm going to have to disagree with you about "building a base first prior to mma" although I have done just such thing. (i have a long backgroung in wrestling, boxing, sanshou, judo and some bjj before I ever started training MMA.)

Because now I see guys who walk in off teh street with ZERO experience and from day 1 they are learning things in a "complete" sense. their grappling considers striking, their striking contains entering the clinch and fighting in and out of it. their takedowns are set up with proactive and reactive striking to lead into a good opening.

I can see that when these men and women stick with this new hybrid for years that their skills will be above what some people are doing today. just looking at the progression of mma in teh last 10 years has shown us that experience and training is making the fighters better.

just my 2 cents.

[dodger87]

So Asia, before one ventures into MMA, one should start of with one MA first? Whats wrong with going straight into MMA?

[Losttrak]

I would say lack of ground skills and the lack of trapping hand experience. Never underestimate the power of someone who can proficiently use trapping hands.

[Water Dragon]

The weakness is that most people who train MMA (in my experience) don't usually consider weaponry.

But there is indeed MMA with weapons. It's just too hardcore for most people. i.e. Dog Brothers and the Kun Tao guys who train with live blades.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by IronFist
Since "MMA" has pretty much come to mean "BJJ/Muay Thai/Boxing," what are the weaknesses of this style?

They say every style has weaknesses and strengths. From a fighting standpoint, what are its weaknesses?

That's not really what it means. It's a formula - grappling and striking. what's common is mt and bjj. It can be judo and boxing, boxing and wrestling (another common one) kyokushinkai and catch, etc.

Since the styles are so similar, weakness is an individual thang. Take me and merry, for example. he's a fricking awesome grappler - his weak point may be his striking. I love standup striking and grappling, but my ground game sucks.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Christopher M


Could you describe what perceived problem you're alluding to here?

you already know where that one's going - take someone down and his friends stomp you...

[Losttrak]

WD, we train with weapons regularly. Not actual knives but they are the same form and weight and we do get cut several times each session. I think that real weapons have their place but they arent necessarily required in order to train weapons. Not that that is what you prolly intended to say, but thats sorta how it read.

Personally, the modern martial artist who is interested in self-defense, should train modern weapons also. Gun, knife, stick. It never hurts to know how to wield an equalizer.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
The weakness is that most people who train MMA (in my experience) don't usually consider weaponry.

But there is indeed MMA with weapons. It's just too hardcore for most people. i.e. Dog Brothers and the Kun Tao guys who train with live blades.

the jun fan/kali guys I used to work with did sinniwali with real machettes

[Asia]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Asia,

Because now I see guys who walk in off teh street with ZERO experience and from day 1 they are learning things in a "complete" sense. their grappling considers striking, their striking contains entering the clinch and fighting in and out of it. their takedowns are set up with proactive and reactive striking to lead into a good opening.

I can see that when these men and women stick with this new hybrid for years that their skills will be above what some people are doing today. just looking at the progression of mma in teh last 10 years has shown us that experience and training is making the fighters better.

just my 2 cents.

My experiences has been different. I see guys who just start of weak in several areas. Compared to guys who have a base they are severly lacking. Sure they will get better as time passes but someone who already has a base in Boxing, MT, Wrestling, etc is going to generally develop faster. (of course nothing is 100% just my observations so far.)


Whats wrong with going straight into MMA?

I don't think it good to just jump into MMA with no base because then you don't have a frame or refernce to work from. You see how a newb is when he is just starting one MA know try getting him to train several at a one time.

Think of it this way. You have two guys one has a background in MT the other is new to MA. They both train for a year or so. During the time the MT guy has strenghtened his stand up skill and is developing his groundwork. The newb is still developing both his Stand up and groundwork. If they fight the advantage is definitely with the MT guy. (again a blanket example I know there are may factors to consider.)

Here a real exp from our lil training group we have hear..
Several guys with no prior training started MMA we been training for about 1.5 yrs. New kid comes who was a HS and College wrestler (stopped in colleg because of torn biscep.) After only traing bout 6~7months he is schooling the others, generally by submission. I truly believe its because he has a base to build upon. He is used to competition and knows how to deal with the adrenaline dump better. Plus he has heart, being a wrestler and all. :D

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Asia

Think of it this way. You have two guys one has a background in MT the other is new to MA. They both train for a year or so. During the time the MT guy has strenghtened his stand up skill and is developing his groundwork. The newb is still developing both his Stand up and groundwork. If they fight the advantage is definitely with the MT guy. (again a blanket example I know there are may factors to consider.)

That's not really an appropriate example, though, because the Muay Thai guy hasn't just been training a year - he's been training MMA for a year, plus however long he was training his muay thai. So yeah, the advantage is with the muay thai guy - it's not because he has a strong base and the other guy didn't; it's because he's been training longer.

Now, if you take a guy that's been training for five years in Muay Thai and two years in MMA, and a guy that's been training seven years in MMA - which one has the advantage? I'd wager the guy with seven years in MMA, "strong base" or not.

[Asia]

That's not really an appropriate example, though, because the Muay Thai guy hasn't just been training a year - he's been training MMA for a year, plus however long he was training his muay thai. So yeah, the advantage is with the muay thai guy - it's not because he has a strong base and the other guy didn't; it's because he's been training longer.

Thats kinda what I am getting at. But you are right it isn't total approp.


Now, if you take a guy that's been training for five years in Muay Thai and two years in MMA, and a guy that's been training seven years in MMA - which one has the advantage? I'd wager the guy with seven years in MMA, "strong base" or not.

I'd still lean toward the MT guy (at least stand up wise) Of course we would also have to take in account fight experience. The MT guys already comes form a strong striking background so his 2 yr MMA training will probably focus on ground work. 2yrs is actually long enough to get compent enough on the ground for MMA, he won't be winning in any ADCC but sub grappling and MMA are two differnt animals. Now the guy during his 7 years MMA from scratch he's going to have to develop all these areas as he goes along.

[omarthefish]

Asia,

Don't know if you caught those clips I posted of the Beijing MMA tounament but they are the first I know of that are here in China. I want in.

I was beggining to worry the timeline wasn't goin to workout for me and rea; competition. So you KNOW what my base is...he he...

Anything general thoughts on how to go about getting ready for that type of fight? There MAY be a Judo club somewhere in
Xi'an but formally joining them is not practical. So my current opportunities to get any ground training are very limited. All I gots is what I got. So the specialization thing here is a big deal for me. I haven't got much of a choice but to specialize.

hmm.....as I type this it just occured to me maybe I should ask my GF to help me find an appropriate local discission board.

Just how well has teh BAJI !!!!!!!!! worked to keep you on your feet. I know I'm hitting with some real power but I just don't have any real wrestlers/judoka around to work with at present. OTOH the tounament won't be untill next year so I got time to dig around.

[dodger87]

Asia how is a MA base appropiate? If you do stand up fighting for 2 years you will be good at stand up fighting. If you do stand up and ground fighting for 2 years you will be evenly good at both.

Think of it as an RPG.

Muay thai fighter.
Standup fighting attributes: 9
Ground fighting attributes: 1

MMAer.
Standup fighting attributes: 5
Ground fighting attributes: 5
:D

[omarthefish]

Well, think of it this way.

You want to fight your own game so you really don't want to divide your time tooooo much. If you want to fight standing up (like I do) then you don't even want to bother worrying about being and overall better ground fighter. You just want to grab a couple basic and master them well. Defensive stuff, avoiding takedowns and gettting back up. You could spend years learning every ankle lock and guard pass in the world but if I'm in someones guard I'd rather work on my GNP and learning how to free my self and reduce them to butscooting around the canvas like an idiot.

Why do I want to put the hours in developing a good shoot? My game isn't lacking for not having one.

[Merryprankster]

omar,

depends on the MMAer.

As far as what you need to do, you've got a year. If you are genuinely interested in success you need to find grapplers and go play. Focus more on takedown defense and submission escapes and learning to get up. Those will pay higher dividends for you.

[omarthefish]

So basically yer just agreeing with my last post. :D

But out of curiosity, who do you think of as some of the better rounded (alternately phrased: less specialized) players?

[Merryprankster]

we posted at the same time. sorry.

Are you asking for specific examples of people out there right now that are particularly well rounded?

[omarthefish]

yes.

[Merryprankster]

Most of the guys on top now I would call a 2nd generation of fighters. They've all got a strong base in something they did prior to MMA.

Some of the new up and comers have been doing MMA since day one and I expect we'll be seeing more of them as time goes on.

What I'm trying to say is I don't have names because most of those guys are still in the development stage and are not big guys yet. They're fighting on undercards for the most part or in stepping stone shows around the nation.

I don't know if that makes any sense.

[Asia]

Originally posted by dodger87
Muay thai fighter.
Standup fighting attributes: 9
Ground fighting attributes: 1

MMAer.
Standup fighting attributes: 5
Ground fighting attributes: 5
:D

That 9 could mean alot if his 1 was just spent sprawling and brawling. :D


Omar,

No way around it you going to have to but some time in on the mat. It going to really suck his you don't have anyone to help. Balling up guys who don't know how to grapple is going to do more harm than good because you may overestimate your skills.

If you can't formally train with the judo group ask a few if they don't mind a little extra ciricular activity. Go to Subfighter.com or BJJ.org to get some ideas of techniques. Hopefully there will be someone who is good at newaza that can help you along. Like you mentioned already work on takedown defense and escapes but get a few subs under belt just in case.

Don't expect BAJI! to keep you on your feet. Its good in the clinch and closing distance but a determines grappler is VERY likely to take you down. (**** Grapplers have now respect for the Almighty BAJI!!!:mad: ) Use BAJI! to get inclose quickly and unleash try to do as much damage as possible. Then watch for a takedown attempt. Guys will definitely go for it when they feel overwhelmed in the stand up game.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I don't agree with your division of skills Omar.

you've got 2 categories like the earlier bjj/muay thai guys.

today's mma is probably better divided into 3 major skill sets.

free standing ( all strikes and shoots where the opponent has no control over any part of you)

standing clinch (striking and grappling where you are both on your feet, each seeking a more dominant position)

groundwork (everything from GnP to sub grappling)

Based on these your muay thai guy might become a :

7/3/0

Randy Couture might be a 3/5/2, Royler Gracie might be a 1/3/6.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by omarthefish

Anything general thoughts on how to go about getting ready for that type of fight? There MAY be a Judo club somewhere in
Xi'an but formally joining them is not practical. So my current opportunities to get any ground training are very limited. All I gots is what I got. So the specialization thing here is a big deal for me. I haven't got much of a choice but to specialize.

I just don't have any real wrestlers/judoka around to work with at present. OTOH the tounament won't be untill next year so I got time to dig around.

Hold on. Unless things are very different from when I was there, you should be able to hook up with some local wrestling teams in Xi'an. The Provincial team trains in Xi'an. Also, if you go to any of the big univesities like Jiao-da or the like you should be able to talk to someone about joining the judo club or wrestling club, even if only informally.

[omarthefish]

THANK YOU unkokusai!

That's usefull info. I live near the foreign language university. Shi Da and Wai Yuan don't really have much of anything in terms of athletics. I'll look into Jiao Da.

Asia,

Oh yeah, extracurricular is what I was thinking anyways. Unless it's sufficiently sport oriented that I feel I can get away with joining without stepping on Shifu's toes. It's gotta be pretty divorced from the "gong fu" MA community. He's pretty traditional and I could be putting in more time with Baji as it is. I'll have to feel it out. If I find time for Judo it kind of implies I could be putting in a lot more time with Baji. Besides, just playing with those guys is what I really want anyways. The taiji thing is working out for shooter on the mat. I don't see why I can't use bagua in a similar fasion. I've rolled enough to develop a pretty solid base and where I've found bagua most helpfull is in evading submissions.

ST,

Actually it was dodger who divided up the skills that way. But I can't really agree with you there. Although....I would add an extra category - takedowns/throws.

See most of my experience has been in Hung Gar and in Baji. Both are really strong in the clinch. We never talked about "the clinch" in either. In fact, there has never been any clear division between grappling and punching in either style. Neither one has any GROUNDWORK but Hung Gar's striking style is grappling dependant and BAJI . . . well it's got a lot more throws/sweeps etc. allthough the standing grappling in my experience is pretty thin. Instead, we've got all kinds of great way to hit someone really really hard from really really close. Either way, I can't truly separate out the "free standing" from the "clinch fighting" in either style.

Throws OTOH....well pure strikers can't throw for ****. Ever see a MT fighter pull off a hip throw? And many BJJ guys are notorious for having trouble getting anyone with a halfway decent Judo background on the ground. So I'd say:

1. Stand up.
2. Throwing or dragging people down.
3.Groundwork.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Asia



Balling up guys who don't know how to grapple is going to do more harm than good because you may overestimate your skills.


Just thought it was worth quoting again because it made me laugh. I like the image of "balling up" the little suckers.

I'm up here trying to figure out how to get more ground work in and may be giving the impression that I can't 'rassle but actually if you throw me on the mat with most non-Judo/JJJ/BJJ guys . . . well, you've been there. It doesn't take a lot to just dominate a total non-wreslter.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I would add an extra category - takedowns/throws.

they occur from a shoot (free standing)

or from some kind of tie up (standing clinch)

[Water Dragon]

The point is ST, just because YOU decide to classify skill set in a certain way, does not make it the word of God.

Both Muay Thai and Judo fight very well from the clinch. Even you cannot say that they are the same art, or even similar.

Really Bro, what exactly is your agenda?

[ShaolinTiger00]

just because YOU decide to classify skill set in a certain way, does not make it the word of God.

You'd have to be a complete moron do disagree with me on this. Are you?


Both Muay Thai and Judo fight very well from the clinch. Even you cannot say that they are the same art, or even similar.

Well no sh1t! What the **** is your point? When did I ever say that they were? They both have skills in the standing clinch. one has free standing skills and the other has groundwork.


Really Bro, what exactly is your agenda?

There is no "agenda". Only my opinion. it only becomes an "agenda" when you disagree.. and I don't care about that.

[omarthefish]

Don't bother Water. I saw that weird post this morning and was going to say something but thinking about it just made my head hurt. Then I realized he'd done that to me on like 3 different threads this week. The best I could come up with in response to:
they occur from a shoot (free standing)

or from some kind of tie up (standing clinch)

was:

And your point is...?

According to this logic, only a complete moron would classify punching as a different skill set from wrestling because punching can occur

from the clinch

free standing

OR

on the ground.

Only a complete moron would disagree with me on this, are you?

[SevenStar]

I'll interject something here, and give the JKD forum a plug - there is a series of threads started by yenhoi called pointing to the moon. The first deals with this very topic.

yes, striking can be done from the clinch. BUT, since it's done from the clinch, it's considered clinch fighting. Free standing will encompass all free standing fighting - striking, kicking, chi blasts, etc. that occur while NOT in a clinch.

clinch fighting will encompass strikes from the clinch and throws/takedowns that occur from the clinch. Since the double leg doesn't necessarily occur in the clinch, you can add that one to free standing, if you wish.

ground will encompass all ground grappling and striking.

[omarthefish]

I'll take a look right now.

I've never dropped in on theJKD forum before.....

[omarthefish]

What happened? There's only 3 threads over there now. Server problems?

[Water Dragon]

I define skill sets by the way we train them.

Striking= boxing, kicking, knees, elbows, shoulders, etc.

Wrestling=throws, sweeps, trips, shots, etc.

Groundwork=all work from the ground

Vale Tudo=learning to combine the skill sets

I'm not saying that there is no other way to define skill sets. I'm saying that there are indeed numerous ways to define skill sets.

I just don't understand why some people refuse to look at any other view point except their own. I have a mental image of certain posters sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming, "la-la-la-la-la" at the top of their lungs.

[omarthefish]

That's the exact categories I use. Just different labels.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
I define skill sets by the way we train them.

Striking= boxing, kicking, knees, elbows, shoulders, etc.

Wrestling=throws, sweeps, trips, shots, etc.

Groundwork=all work from the ground



Doesn't this imply that there is no groundwork in wrestling?

[Water Dragon]

Of course there is groundwork in wrestling. These are just the terms we use when we train. In realty, there are only 2 ranges or skill sets. They are fighting, and not fighting.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by omarthefish
That's the exact categories I use. Just different labels.

Don't get confused by the labels. I'd say look at what's to the right of the equal sign. Whatever you call it is pretty irrelevant.

The big 2 divisions are:

1. standing up.

2. not standing up.

Then there's the transition between the 2.

[ShaolinTiger00]

The big 2 divisions are:

1. standing up.

2. not standing up.

Then there's the transition between the 2.

This mentality is so incorrect it's almost criminal..

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Of course there is groundwork in wrestling. These are just the terms we use when we train.

Well the terms seem misleading then, don't they?

[Water Dragon]

You're more than welcome to use your own terms. I'm trying to illustrate a point, not argue over semantics.

[red5angel]

There are no weak arts, only weak practitioners.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
You're more than welcome to use your own terms. I'm trying to illustrate a point, not argue over semantics.

Well, isn't the use of terms kinda a matter of semantics? Or is the choice of terms completely random?

[lkfmdc]

me thinks he be on ye old rag, as he's been arguing with everyone and everywhere this last week.....

his conceptual framework seems to be the one Renzo Gracie spelled out in his most recent book, an excellent book that I strongly recommend, but of course, ANY conceptual framework has holes in it....

Renzo (and to a large part his very smart student John) set up

1. free movement
2. clinch
3. ground

as their three domains... they largely discount "range theory" but I tend to disagree on this point. Range theory is essential to understanding the how and why you end up in/the differnece between 1 and 2.... but I digress (as usual)

the obvious problem where this latest argument is concerned, is that throws happen from the clinch, while shooting is initiated mostly in free movement, making them very different animals indeed

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by unkokusai

Oh boy, oh boy! I showed everyone that H2O doesn't use the best word choice. Now everyone will realize what a great warrior I am.

[unkokusai]

I'm sorry you are so insecure. Just trying to clarify is all.

[Water Dragon]

So the first two times I clarified it for you weren't good enough?

And please don't expose my insecurities on the internet. You almost made me cry :(

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
So the first two times I clarified it for you weren't good enough?

And please don't expose my insecurities on the internet. You almost made me cry :(

Apparently not. No need to feel so threatened. I won't hurt ya.

And keep your tears away from the keyboard. Wouldn't want a short.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by omarthefish
What happened? There's only 3 threads over there now. Server problems?

the default setting is to view threads less than 30 days old - change it.

[ShaolinTiger00]

his conceptual framework seems to be the one Renzo Gracie spelled out in his most recent book, an excellent book that I strongly recommend, but of course, ANY conceptual framework has holes in it....

I'd say that I agree with the Danaher in the 3 distinct divisions, but that I also disagree with some of the things in it. (ex. - the lack of kick catches and the total ignoring of GnP, which I know that no self-respecting Gracie would use, has come along way since the caveman "hulk smash" days of Coleman & Kerr, Today's GnP is much more sophisticated and seeks to open opporitunites for better positions.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by SevenStar


the default setting is to view threads less than 30 days old - change it.

aaahhhh......