Difference between Chi-/Kiu Sao ?

[YuLi]

Hi @ all!

Can anybody explain me the difference between Chi Sao and Kiu Sao ? I read , that Kiu Sao is a bit more tough . Is that true ?

Thx for all anwers!

[yuanfen]

What do you mean by tough?

Harder to do?

Makes you stronger?

Makes you more effective?

Will teach you better timing?

A good line in wing chun will have various kinds of chi sao
and will include bridge(kiu) work.

[old jong]

Hi!
Well,I'm not sure about what you mean. Kiu means; bridge or forearm (Imo) so it could means ;bridge hand or something near.
It must be a term used in your lineage only,relating to some form of sparring drill or san sau. ;)

[45degree fist]

kiu is a bridge arm using your forearm as your bridge is Kiu Sau.
its not harder to use or train it just has a different focus.
(2 different ranges)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by YuLi
Hi @ all!

Can anybody explain me the difference between Chi Sao and Kiu Sao ? I read , that Kiu Sao is a bit more tough . Is that true ?

Thx for all anwers!



Kiu Sau is a Noun.
Chi Sau is an action.


How can one compare a honda Civic with Driving a Car?


IT is a Chinese language mis-used problem.

[Savi]

Where have you heard the phrase "Kiu Sau" from? If I may share from my training...

From the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun system, Kiu Sau is very deep and specific in purpose, intent, and employment. This is the understanding I have come to realize:

On a very basic level of understanding, Kiu Sau is whatever it means to '"you" (generally speaking). As an example, it could mean training "bridge work" like maybe Chi Sau, or it could mean any actual technique used to establish a bridge like a Paak Sau or Bong Sau. These are just possible examples. But from a basic understanding, it is only the shape of the technique, the name “Kiu Sau” (bridge hand), or its perceived usage that one identifies with. This however, could be said about anything.

On a more in-depth level of understanding, Kiu Sau becomes more involved than just being a technique. At this stage, Kiu Sau becomes distinct once its purpose is understood. One now recognizes that Kiu Sau is not an act of bridging nor is it a technique. One’s understanding is now exists within Conceptual thought rather than as before (outward appearance). Still, one’s understanding cannot escape one’s experience. So at this level of understanding you and I could still argue about what is and what is not even if we both have more technical detail about Kiu Sau than before. It could be about anti-grappling or gate protection.

Ultimately, when one reaches the true nature of what is and what is not, there can never be an argument. Things simply are what they are.

In the HFY system, we really cannot have any truly meaningful discussion about Kiu Sau unless we understand the theory behind Kiu Sau. That is a very involved discussion too.

In truth, HFYWCK has 4 different types of Kiu Sau methods within the Siu Nihm Tau level:

1. Fau Kiu Kiu Sau: focus of wandering/floating arm methods
2. Deui Ying Kiu Sau: focus of matching/facing arm methods
3. Bong Laap Kiu Sau: focus of line shifting/changing arm methods
4. Kwan Sau Kiu Sau: focus of trapping and striking arm methods

Kiu Sau leads one to better understand proper time and space and how to control acts of disharmony pitted against oneself. The idea behind HFY’s Kiu Sau is that of controlling the time and space encompassing you and the attacker without getting exposed to grappling opportunities.

Even still, there is another level of development and cultivation in the stage of Chi Kiu before we get close enough to talk about Chi Sau.

So if you have a chance to check out Mastering Kung Fu: Featuring Shaolin Wing Chun from your local library or get it from the store, The discussion of Kiu Sau begins within Chapter 7 on page 136.

Chi Sau has its own time and space defining its purpose and usage which is distinctly different from Kiu Sau. HFYWCK has different types of Chi Sau as well.

I am not familiar with the nature or context of Kiu Sau within other Wing Chun lineages. From my training in MYVTK, I have never heard the term Kiu Sau personally.

Whether or not it is more tough than Chi Sau, I guess depends on your experiences and how you learn or how you are taught.

There is more information on HFY Kiu Sau and Chi Sau over at www.hfy108.com if you are ever interested in discussion over there. Take care.

[YuLi]

I read ,that Kiu Sao is harder than Chi Sao. (sorry, my English isn´t so good) .
. I´m practising Chi Sim Weng Chun .

@ Save . Thank you for your answers . I know this community .

[Ultimatewingchun]

Savi wrote:

"From my training in MYVTK, I have never heard the term Kiu Sau personally."

I assume what is meant by MYVTK is Moy Yat Ving Tsun Kuen.

I trained with Moy Yat for eight years - and in the advanced stages he taught some of us a type of chi sao that he called Chen Kiu Sao.

A longer extension of the arms were used...eventually leading to no actual contact as a starting point.

[reneritchie]

Kiu Sao is a pretty standard term in Southern Chinese MA, and means 'bridge arm'--pretty much any position/action of the arms. It is also typically shortened to either just 'kiu' or just 'sao' (i.e. Chum Kiu, Tan Sao).

Of course, like in any language, different people will ascribe more specific and variant meanings to the more common and general.

[desertwingchun2]

YuLi - Kiu sao as a term is indeed very comon in southern chinese martial arts. Simple translation is "bridge arm." However, in our lineage, depending on the context, it may refer to more than simply an arm bridge.

Chi sao is also a common term. "Sticky hand" is a simple translation. Again, depending on the context, it may refer to more than that simple translation.

In our lineage both carry seperate but similar conotations.

-David

[YuLi]

Thank you for all answers.

I knew the meaning of Kiu Sao but I didn´t exactly know the difference between Kiu and Chi Sao . But now i know, what it means .

Thx

[reneritchie]

Kiu tends to be a noun (a thing, like a specific hand tyoe). Chi tends to be a verb (an action, like a specific way of using the hands). In other words, while Chi Sao (sticking hands) you use various forms of Kiu Sao (bridge hands).

[Chango]

Hello Yuli,
From your signature and your location and the subject matter. I feel safe in assuming that your lineage would be the Chi sim lineage.

I would like to offer what I have gathered from my personal experience. To qualify my offering I will list a little bit about my experience. I'm a disciple of the Hung Fa Yi lineage. I've been certified to teach and protect as well as preserve the the Chi sim system and it's traditions. I have completed the Yip man system consisting of information from mostly the Moy yat family but also from Ip ching and Ip chun families. I have also done a very little bit of Hung ga.

Now based on my experiences the Chi sim system and the Hung Fa Yi systems use of the word "kiu sau" and the " kiu sau" practice are much more simular then others. As a matter of fact it is quite amazing how much they share in this regard. Among other things both make refrence to 3D space and both address time consistantly in this format. As a matter of fact both discuss the Tin Yan Dei ((heaven human and earth) Concept. I know some lineages share some of the same termonolgy. But in this and many other since these systems share the same meanings! As far as "kiu sau" is concerned with the other Wing chun lineages I have had experience with "Kiu sau" was not a specific reference to space and time. It seemed to just be discription the relationship of the practitioners hands and/or arms. For instance signifying the difference between long bridge and short bridge chi sao sortaspeak. once again I can only offer what I have experienced. I don't claim to know all other lineages. However I haven't seen this term used the same out side of these two lineages.

I would like to say that my point is not to point out the differences in two families and others. My point is to focus on the simularities of these two and thier relationship. However I would like to hear other lineages perspective on this subject as well.

Being a member of the Chi sim family you might find this forum helpful.

http://hfy108.com/forums/index.php?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Kiu tends to be a noun (a thing, like a specific hand tyoe). Chi tends to be a verb (an action, like a specific way of using the hands). In other words, while Chi Sao (sticking hands) you use various forms of Kiu Sao (bridge hands).


Rene,

Yup!

Kiu Sau is a noun. Chi Sau is an action (verb).

That is how Chinese used it up to today.
Bridge cannot equal to Sticky.
Honda civic cannot equal to waxing a car.

[YuLi]

@ Chango : Very interesting post! Thank you for the link! I´m looking forward to join this community of the chi sim family! ;)

Sicerely

YuLi

[duende]

hmmm...

so if Kiu Sau is a noun, and Chi Sau is a verb... does that make Chi Kiu an adverb???

[Phenix]

Originally posted by duende
hmmm...

so if Kiu Sau is a noun, and Chi Sau is a verb... does that make Chi Kiu an adverb???

Rene... Hendrick... Rendrick... could you possibly be more lame???





Such as Drive is a verb. Car is a noun. Sau is a noun. bus is a noun.

Chi Kiu means Stick bridge.


Chinese has been there for thousand of years. One doesnt have to invent the language.

[reneritchie]

Chi Kiu would be analogus to Chi Sao. Chi Sao is just far more common.

(Sticking Arms and Sticking Bridges would both be shortened versions of Sticking Bridge Arms.)

Mo Kiu (Rubbing Bridges) is a better known drill using 'Kiu' as opposed to 'Sao'.

[John D]

Kiu sau practice: Seems to me that your teacher is the best person to answer your question. However, since you asked - Kiu Sau and Biu Sau are very important drills/techniques that can be easily utilized in distance intercepting training. Intercepting with the Kiu Sau develops needed timing to meet and drive into (sometimes across) the opponents lanes of approach. Hence, you both deflect and slip by the first point of contact and then attack the opponents body. Usually your bridging arm (or tek) will have a slightly off set intercepting angle of contact to avoid meeting power directly. Keep your second hand up or better yet use it for a Gum Sau.

[Keep in mind, distancing/intercepting drills should be started at walking speed and gradually intensified until you can face full speed/power.attacks]

Your Chi Sau ability will assist your hands to slip, re-shape, break through possible barriers. Hence, Chi Sau and Kiu Sau are all part of your Jit Kuen abilities. Chi Sau by itself and intercepting (Jit Kuen/Tek) drills alone are incomplete - they need to be married together.

Hopefully, your teacher can guide you on the other needs such as ferocity (intent), breath, leg jamming/footwork, and follow-up tactics/strategies against second and third opponents.

I hope your partners can take all the bruises coming their way.......

Good Luck.
John D.

[Savi]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Chi Kiu would be analogus to Chi Sao. Chi Sao is just far more common.

(Sticking Arms and Sticking Bridges would both be shortened versions of Sticking Bridge Arms.) So Rene, you are familiar with Chi Kiu? Could you please tell me more about it?

In HFY, Chi Kiu is different from Chi Sau, and Kiu Sau is different from Chi Sau, and Kiu Sau is different from Chi Kiu. As a matter of fact, they all are distinctly different from each other [in HFY]. It is far from a game of words and who calls what this or that. But again, that's just how I see it.

I'd be very interested in seeing your side of the fence about Chi Kiu, unless it's just a game of words to you.

[reneritchie]

If a particular person or group ascribes more distinct meaning to any term, and it's found useful, I think that's great. However, it doesn't mean everyone else will use the words the same way, or that more common usages lose value.

[duende]

Hey John D.

Nice Post! Although there are differences between our two lineage's theories and applications on Kiu Sau, it is nice to hear from someone who knows what he's talking about!

[Phenix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
If a particular person or group ascribes more distinct meaning to any term, and it's found useful, I think that's great.

However, it doesn't mean everyone else will use the words the same way, or that more common usages lose value.


Rene,

I agree.

Since red boat times,
In Yik Kam and Cho family lineage, there is a drill Chi Lin Wan bat dim kiu or Stick eight point chain continous bridge. There also a drill called Chong kiu sau or strengthening kiu sau continous drill.

Thus, Kiu Sau and Chi Sau/chi kiu are different things. Kiu is Noun. Chi is verb.

[reneritchie]

We have a drill we call Na Dan Kiu (Sticking Single Bridge). Na (Nian) is synonymous with Chi (Chi). We also have Dap Kiu (Joining Bridges) as a latter stage progression after Luk Sao.

Chinese seem to like to shorten things (hence Kiu Sao -> Kiu / Sao). Instead of Da or Wan Chi Sao, or Dap Kiu Sao, or whatever, it just gets shortened down. My late sigung would just say "Nim Tao" when he wanted you to do the first set. Perhaps in a few years, people will just call it that.