Sparring!?!?

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Do you all spar at your schools or just chi sao?

if so, is it full contact sparring or just point style soft sparring?

[anerlich]

Full contact with protective gear, including takedowns and groundfighting.

[akalish]

Katsu Jin Ken,

We do sparring including strikes/kicks/takedowns usually using some combination of headgear, gloves, shin guards & chest protector. The sparring has several variations depending on your training focus and your level, including half speed, three quarter speed, combinations, anything goes, et cetera.

Andrew N.,

Would you mind sharing what type of protective gear that you find best? Specifically the type of gloves (if any) and head gear? Who makes them and how thickly padded are they? (for example, no gloves versus heavy bag gloves versus boxing gloves) Thanks in advance for your time...

Andy Kalish
Rochester, NY USA

[anerlich]

IMHO the most important pieces of protective equipment are:

1. mouthguard
2. groin cup

For full contact including head shots you really need proper boxing gloves, 14/16 oz. A helmet works well too, but you need one with a good grille or faceplate - Ive seen the clear plastic ones break a few times. Hard to recommend a specific brand as I've yet to find a REALLY good one. We just use those and vinyl shin pads - ice hockey pads are really good but you both have to have them. Sparring without pads is good occasionally if you keep your shins reasonably well conditioned.

Elbow and knee pads as well for vale tudo. We use fingerless vale tudo gloves, but they really preclude full power shots to the head, so we only go semicontact. No one is so strong that they can afford regular concussion.

We use escrima-type gear for weapons sparring ... though I personally prefer cricket helmets for head protection.

You still have to be prepared for a few bumps and bruises. I've had three KO's, a busted eardrum, cracked ribs and innumerable black eyes and bruises. but no permanent damage or anything that required a visit to a hospital.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I train myself and my students almost exactly the way Andrew Nerlich describes what goes on in the school he attends:

Very thin gloves with about half of each finger exposed (made by a company called Century)...chest protector (By Pro Force)...a white-colored helmet/headgear (also by Pro Force)...we replaced the thick black plastic bar facemask that normally comes with the headgear with a hockey facemask that can be purchased separately at any good sporting goods store. (The hockey facemask has many vertical and horizontal metal bars that completely protect the face - but the bars are so thin that vision is not really impaired)....groin cup...shin and knee pads....sometimes elbow pads as well.

Fairly heavy contact punches and kicks (while wearing sneakers), takedowns...groundfighting/grappling...although this latter part is a bit difficult with all the equipment...so my Wednesay night class always includes at least one hour of heavy duty grappling (and some limiting striking)...on the mats with no protective gear except a groin cup.

We also spar lightly at times with no protective gear except a groin cup and a mouthpiece...usually preceding the heavier sparring with all the equipment.

And chi sao precedes all of this...

[Gangsterfist]

I don't ever wear a groin cup and have learned to guard my groin the hard way. I have taken several hard hits over the last year in the groin. I guard it a lot better now and in a weird byproduct and I can take groin shots a lot better now as well.

The other day we sparred using gloves 14oz boxing gloves. Sifu had us use them for training reasons he said. He said if you can pull off striking with huge 14oz gloves then using 10oz will be even easier. I think he wants us to go compete in a san da (san shou) tournament soon to get some good fighting experience so we started sparring with gloves and such. Before that we just sparred bare knuckle at about 1/2 contact.

I say just mix it up and spar differently to gain different aspects. Full contact will teach you how to take hits, and deliever them as well. Slow sparring with teach you to execute technique and how to read the body when it moves. So, I say practice all aspects of sparring including take downs and ground fighting.

[akalish]

Gangsterfist,

While it certainly seems to have had some positive results for you in your training (awareness, "conditioning"), I have to put in my 2 cents regarding a groin cup.

First, I am not sure that you necessarily need to get hit in the unprotected groin in order to appreciate the need for its defense. Let me give you a non-MA example. As a pre-college youngster, I had a job working in a foundry where we were "required" to wear safety glasses. I typically left them in my pocket unless I was being watched. Then one day while walking in the yard behind the facility, the person walking in front of me pulled a tree branch forward to get past it. You guessed it, when he let it go it whipped back and the tip whacked me right square in the eye. By pure dumb luck I just happened to be wearing my safety glasses. I knew immediately that my eye would have suffered significant damage if I hadn't been protected. I wore my glasses all the time after that. Even though it was over 20 years ago, I can still remember the event like it was yesterday. I didn't have to actually get whacked to appreciate the potential results of not protecting a vital area.

Also, IMHO the risk that you are running is not worth it. Without conditioning that very few really know how to achieve, your testicles are just not made for that type of impact. And what is worse, testicles are not always very good at making a full recovery from injury (just talk to your friendly local urologist). It is a high price to pay especially if you want to have children someday.

This is not meant to counter or disagree with your opinion or training preferences, but rather is just the other side of the coin based on my experience...

Andy

[SevenStar]

why the facemask? In the local CMA continuous fighting tournies, you must wear a facemask. I hear that NASKA instituted this also. in thai boxing, kickboxing, boxing, etc., we only use the helmet - no facemask.

[sihing]

Jeez guys, what happens when the 75yr old man/woman joins the school to learn how to defend themselves? You expect them to be able or to even want to do that. Always remember, the mind is the most powerful weapon, as confuses says.....Oh just to relate a story, so ironic I have to say, one of the students today in the afternoon class was telling me about a little playful sparring session he had with a friend of his that is a accomplished local boxer(apparently this friend's whole family boxes). Anyways when the WC student got in his stance,( in this case similar to the TWC stance but both feet point 45deg to whatever the side is, left side stance or visa versa) and with his Wu sao's extended the boxer friend proceeded tell the student how off balance he was. The student replied "oh yeah". When the boxer attacked with a sharp angled lead right cross the student simply tan sao & str. punch, popped the boxer in the nose. On the next exchanged the WC student fainted the boxer with a slow finger jab towards the eyes, making slight contact(nothing to poke the eyes out), the boxer lost total orientation and tripped to the floor. Observing his reactions while he was telling me this story it seemed he was quite surprised himself as to how effective his techniques worked. This WC student probably only attends 4 to 6hrs a week of classes. No sparring, but he is a keen student, level 4 in our system. Apparently the boxer friend had trophy's glore in his house. Just a story that's all.

sihing

[Katsu Jin Ken]

im taking Wing Chun 2 hours a week. Is this enough to learn efficiently i feel it is but just want your opinons. It is only offered 2 1hour classes a week. I have the option of taking Kenpo, and jujitsu on the other days of the week but ima college student and i just dont have time for all that between school and work you know.

[akalish]

Katsu Jin Ken,

Wow, between school and work I am surprised that you even have any hours available for MA. That is great. I would say that you could make progress at that pace but it will be a little slower than if you put in more time. Still very much worth it though IMO. You also may want to consider switching over for a semester of jujitsu as well to broaden your experience base. Switching back and forth shouldn't be a detraction. Best of luck.

sihing,

You have differerentiated between sparring and self-defense training on a few occasions now. Could you give some examples that highlight the differences for us? Does your self-defense training involve exchanges that start from a very specific scenario (such as a throat grab, a punch combination, a push or a tackle) and end after that one scenario has been neutralized? Is the degree of force or intent less than 100%? Any further clarification would be appreciated.

To answer your question, I wouldn't "expect" anything specific out of a 75 year old person. They are probably there for a reason. I would want to find out what that reason is and understand how that reason changes over time. Then I would try to accommodate that. FWIW, I train occasionally with a person currently in his 70s. Trust me he will put the gloves and helmet on with you...

I agree that the mind is a great weapon, but I feel that the mind/body connection has to be there via training in an environment that is as close as possible to the desired performance environment. The less extrapolation that your mind/body has to do the better you will perform.

Interesting story about the boxer. Not to imply any lack of skill on his part, but I am surprised that he didn't have his guard hand near his face or have been ready to move/slip when throwing the cross. Maybe he underestimated the other guy. Can't explain the falling either. Anyway, thanks for sharing.

Andy

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Jeez guys, what happens when the 75yr old man/woman joins the school to learn how to defend themselves? You expect them to be able or to even want to do that. Always remember, the mind is the most powerful weapon, as confuses says

which doesn't do much good if the body isn't trained to do what it should...

That said, one of my judo coaches is 74. he can keep up. With someone older, you just tailor your training to them - of course you aren't gonna have him sparring full contact...

.....Oh just to relate a story, so ironic I have to say, one of the students today in the afternoon class was telling me about a little playful sparring session he had with a friend of his that is a accomplished local boxer

A WC black sash and instructor in the area entered a local continuous sparring competition. He got picked apart by a shotokan brown belt.

[old jong]

A WC black sash and instructor in the area entered a local continuous sparring competition. He got picked apart by a shotokan brown belt....

I could put on a white belt and beat the $hit out of somebody!...You get the idea?...;)

Mods trolling!...:rolleyes:

[sihing]

to me sparring is a form of excercise persay, yes it is good for you to get used to someone coming at you full blast and things like that, and I would spar more if I was into the competition thing, I also think it is good excercise and builds up some good wind, problem is I believe that it gives one a false sence of security because people get good at sparring. Sparring is not necessary for one to develop fighting skills, IMHO. We work on perception drills in class and also random multiple attacking drills where one is surrounded by 4 to 6 people and is attacked by 1 to 3 techniques( intensity level is based on skill level)in a random manner. The student has to use the technique's just trained on in the previous class. For our level 10 instructor's test the student is attacked by 3 attackers, for self-defence(holds, grabs, rushes), combat tech(punches and kicks), weapons(knive, club), 75 reps for each one, while standing up, kneeling, sitting in the chair and the side while pushed to the ground(using the legs to defend) and then while being mounted on your back. It seems to work for those that have taken the test?? Plus my instructor, Master Brian Lewadny, has 40+ yrs of MA training and experience and he doesn't believe in sparring as a effective training tool, so I tend to trust his opinion too regarding training methods.

We in our school don't not participate much in competition's but we have in the past, both times the students have won. No one can handle the chain punching I guess, lol.( that one is for you Seven Star).

You know sparring doesn't hurt your training, just that I don't believe its absolutely neccessary to develop quality self defence ability, IMHO.

sihing

[Gangsterfist]

...Plus my instructor, Master Brian Lewadny, has 40+ yrs of MA training and experience and he doesn't believe in sparring as a effective training tool, so I tend to trust his opinion too regarding training methods...



Sihing-

Please tell me why sparring is not a good training tool? How else can you get that close to a real fight and test your skills? How else do you advocate combat training?

I read through your post about your training drills, but those are also controlled enviroments. They are "drills" and I do not see how they are more effective than sparring. There are many different levels of sparring from slow controlled movements all the way up to full contact.

Its IMHO, that doing drills over and over again build up a false sense of security with your kung fu. You can get caught up in patterns and rythms with drills. That is the purpose to build the muscle memory. However, applying it as a drill and applying it in a real fight are 2 very different things. Sparring is progressive and you will never have the same match twice. It will be different every time and the more people you spar the better you can test and work out your attributes.

Doing drills over and over again with only wing chun practitioners really only makes you good at doing drills with other wing chunners, not a good fighter. To really work out your skills and attributes and then in harness them and refine them to make yourself effective. Everyone's skills and attributes are different so results will vary.

[reneritchie]

Martial arts has very little to do with Self Defense. If you have any confusion about that, I refer you again to:

You wake up in the middle of the night to find a man with a gun to your child's head telling your wife to tie you up

You order at McDonalds only to find bullets from a mini-gun begin to spray down the menu above the counter

You exit 7/11 to find a bunch of kids in baggy pants smoking up while leaning against your car

You're driving down the road and someone jumps into your car in the backseat you foolishly forgot to lock, pulls out a weapon and orders you to drive to a secluded location...

That's all *real* self defense, and WCK or any MA won't help very much.

WCK is a system for fighting mostly focused towards 1-on-1 duels. It has some limited cross-over into other fighting situations, but should never be confused with Self Defense.

Once that's understood, the 'debate' about sparring vanishes.

And Sihing, there are people out there with just as much if not more experience in WCK than your sifu, and they have a variety of differing opinions. Thus, arguments by authority have almost no usefulness.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"...Plus my instructor, Master Brian Lewadny, has 40+ yrs of MA training and experience and he doesn't believe in sparring as a effective training tool, so I tend to trust his opinion too regarding training methods..."

And this is someone who we were supposed to believe is part of an elite group of 2...(Lewadny and Bruce Lee).

Yeah.....right!!!???!!! LOL


James Roller:

Let me let you and Brian Lewadny in on a little secret:

No sparring = No REAL fighting ability.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally posted by reneritchie:

"Martial arts has very little to do with Self Defense. If you have any confusion about that, I refer you again to:

You wake up in the middle of the night to find a man with a gun to your child's head telling your wife to tie you up

You order at McDonalds only to find bullets from a mini-gun begin to spray down the menu above the counter

You exit 7/11 to find a bunch of kids in baggy pants smoking up while leaning against your car

You're driving down the road and someone jumps into your car in the backseat you foolishly forgot to lock, pulls out a weapon and orders you to drive to a secluded location...

That's all *real* self defense, and WCK or any MA won't help very much.

WCK is a system for fighting mostly focused towards 1-on-1 duels. It has some limited cross-over into other fighting situations, but should never be confused with Self Defense.

Once that's understood, the 'debate' about sparring vanishes...

And Sihing, there are people out there with just as much if not more experience in WCK than your sifu, and they have a variety of differing opinions. Thus, arguments by authority have almost no usefulness."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rene:

While your advice to James Roller (sihing) about his sifu's experience (or lack of it) was right on the money...your preceding thoughts and conclusions (quoted above) are close to reality...but not quite there (IMO).

Specifically:

"Martial arts has very little to do with Self Defense...WCK...has some limited crossover into other fighting situations (besides 1 on 1 duels)...but should never be confused with self defense."

Martial arts is supposed to have EVERYTHING to do with Self Defense...and most (if not all) martial arts were designed to be real-fight self defense arts...ORIGINALLY. (Including Wing Chun).

The problem for most modern martial arts and the self defense situations you describe so well in the above post is the:

1) McDojo commercial ($) approach to teaching, and...

2) The unwillingness of many (if not most) schools to take a crosstrainiing approach...

Both of these things lend themselves to very LIMITED real-life fighting situations being covered in the curriculum.

It's not the martial arts per se that have let us down in real-life self defense situations...it's us who have let down the "spirit" of the arts we've learned - in self defense situations.

[sihing]

Gangsterfist, firstly I think maybe our definitions of sparring might differ. I think of sparring as two people getting together, putting on the gloves and going at it. Is this correct? We do practice a form of sparring as I mentioned earlier, but we do rarely practice what is described above. Only when the student wants to go in a competition or something like that, and if they want to do that type of training on their own. If I walked in on them practicing a sparring session like the above, would I stop them, nope. Have fun I would tell them, then give them some pointers.

Rene, all of the situations you mentioned, I believe that one trained in any MA would be in better shape than those that haven't. Just for the confidence and ability to control our emotions and stay cool under pressure puts us in a better position to handle situations you mentioned. Plus WC is awesome for multiple opponents, I don't know where you got this 1 on 1 stuff. Since starting my training in WC I have been open minded enough to search for other's opinion, not that my Sifu's wasn't good enough for me, it was just a couriousity thing. There are experts in every field that have differing opinions, and that's great. I just happen to agree with what was taught to me by Sifu and more power to the ones that don't agree with it.

Victor, do you think you can take your Instructor GM Cheung? Do you think he is sparring at all at age 63. Probably not, at least he wasn't when I met him(and he was only 53 back then). So tell me , what's the difference between you and him. Probably skill level, and his understanding of the system that makes most of the difference. Random attacks are a common thing in the school I belong too, gettin the jocks on and mouth guards isn't.

sihing

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Victor, do you think you can take your Instructor GM Cheung? Do you think he is sparring at all at age 63. Probably not, at least he wasn't when I met him(and he was only 53 back then). So tell me , what's the difference between you and him. Probably skill level, and his understanding of the system that makes most of the difference. Random attacks are a common thing in the school I belong too, gettin the jocks on and mouth guards isn't."

James Roller:

This paragraph is so confused and confusing that I wouldn't even know where to begin trying to answer it point-for-point.

But I will say this much: I personally spar (heavy contact - using protective gear) with my advanced students EVERY Saturday. Along with some heavy-duty competitive wrestling (with some striking thrown in) EVERY Wednesday.

I teach three days per week; and classes also include chi sao, light sparring (without protective gear), weapons, unarmed self defense against weapons, and random self defense situations - along with forms, punching, kicking, footwork, wooden dummy, conditioning, etc.

I won't answer your comments/questions about William Cheung - not only because they're pretty unintelligible and confusing, for the most part, - but they're also inappropriate.

You already managed to have one thread deleted - are you shooting for that with this one too?

[Gangsterfist]

Maybe its just me but its IMO that sparring is the closest thing to a real fight with out the dangers of a real situation. There of course is still risk involved but the steps have been taken to make it a more safe enviroment.

I can't see any other way to test your skills find your weaknesses and help progress your training other than sparring.

Sparring is a tool just like the dummy, chi sao, weapons, etc. It is needed to develope good gung fu.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Originally posted by akalish
Katsu Jin Ken,

Wow, between school and work I am surprised that you even have any hours available for MA. That is great. I would say that you could make progress at that pace but it will be a little slower than if you put in more time. Still very much worth it though IMO. You also may want to consider switching over for a semester of jujitsu as well to broaden your experience base. Switching back and forth shouldn't be a detraction. Best of luck.

sihing,

lol thanks. I have class in the early mornings and work late at night so i have about 10 hours a day of free time, sometimes less. Im going to have to quit classes though. I just dont have the time during the week and no weekend classes are available. Private lessions are available for $50 an hour i dont have that kind of cash right now. I guess ill have to wait a couple years. Till then books and videos here i come unless there is some other weekends classes out there.

WHAT A DUMMER

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by old jong
...

I could put on a white belt and beat the $hit out of somebody!...You get the idea?...;)

Mods trolling!...:rolleyes:


lol, nah, it's not a troll. He's talking about the boxer losing, like it's some wonderous feat - it happens, just like this WC instructor got beat.

[anerlich]

Plus my instructor, Master Brian Lewadny, has 40+ yrs of MA training and experience and he doesn't believe in sparring as a effective training tool, so I tend to trust his opinion too regarding training methods.

If I had people calling me Master and Grandmaster, and for some silly reason wanted to keep up the reputation some websites and internet posters gush about me, I'd stay away from sparring too.

FWIW, The other BL had the exact opposite opinion.

Anyway as an argument this is fallacious, an appeal to authority. It would be better if people could back up their own opinions without regurgitating their instructor's opinions.


problem is I believe that it gives one a false sence of security because people get good at sparring.

There's some truth in this, but even worse are people that get good at drills without the contact and pressure of sparring and then have an even more inappropriate sense of belief in their own ability to deal with a committed attacker.

There was a guy in the states who entered a BJJ comp at 72. He didn't win his match, but he didn't disgrace himself or have to be carted off to hospital either. I'm nearly 50, and I stll plan to be training alive, sparring and rolling, when I'm as old as GM Cheung is now and longer. I reckon I'll die on a mat.

In any case, it'as stupid to limit your activities to things you'll only be able to do in your ancient years. Live life and explore your abilities to the fullest now whatever age you are.

Katsu,

just do the best you can. Too many guys think, I can't train fulltime and become world champion (or whatever), there's no point doing anything. Two hours a week is a whole lot better than nothing at all. Anything is always better than nothing.

[Bob8]

Hi Sihing,

>Plus WC is awesome for multiple opponents, I
> don't know where you got this 1 on 1 stuff.

I agree with Rene WCK is mainly for 1 on 1.
If you are very good perhaps 2 opponents.
Three or more opponents and it is very very
difficult and luck is a major factor. Only the
extremely skilled can handle three or more
guys that are ready to fight you.

Put on some gloves, mouth guard and groin cup
and try to spar with three guys. It becomes
even harder when they are not afraid of being
hit and have little problems taking a punch.

In class when I am with 2 guys fighting 1
we always try to bring him to the ground.
Once on the ground with 3 or more guys you
are totally lost. When you fight 3/4 guys that
are kicking punching you while you are on the
ground there is almost no way out.

Bob

[Gangsterfist]

I would have to say WCK is more geared towards one opponet. Hence, the centerline theory and effecting the center attacking the center so on and so forth.

When dealing with multiple attackers there is no longer any center. You cannot just attack one center because there is more than one center.

Lets say you are in a bad situation. We will say 5 Vs 1 and you are pinned in the corner of a parking garage on like the 10th level. You have no where to go and have to fight. Each person can be seen as an individual center, but ultimately that probably won't be productive. Wing chun will definately help you, but ultimately I don't think people train hard or realistically enough to get out of a situation like this.

Multiple opponet situations are never in your favor. I know that I have been play fighting my friends in the past and they have ganged up on me. A few timse I have done a few things that put me in a position to escape them. That is the key, to get the heck out of town! However, none of these situations apply because we were play fighting. I know they would not seriously hurt me.

[anerlich]

I go along with the 1 on 1 focus as well. WC is probably no worse than most other styles for multiopponent scenarios, but other styles such as Choy Li Fut place much greater emphasis on them.

Working multiopponent scenarios at the academy is fun, but really you wouldn't ever want to try it for real if you had any choice in the matter.

[akalish]

sihing,


Originally posted by sihing
Gangsterfist, firstly I think maybe our definitions of sparring might differ. I think of sparring as two people getting together, putting on the gloves and going at it. Is this correct? We do practice a form of sparring as I mentioned earlier, but we do rarely practice what is described above. Only when the student wants to go in a competition or something like that, and if they want to do that type of training on their own. If I walked in on them practicing a sparring session like the above, would I stop them, nope. Have fun I would tell them, then give them some pointers.

Originally posted by sihing
to me sparring is a form of excercise persay, yes it is good for you to get used to someone coming at you full blast and things like that, and I would spar more if I was into the competition thing, I also think it is good excercise and builds up some good wind, problem is I believe that it gives one a false sence of security because people get good at sparring. Sparring is not necessary for one to develop fighting skills, IMHO. We work on perception drills in class and also random multiple attacking drills where one is surrounded by 4 to 6 people and is attacked by 1 to 3 techniques( intensity level is based on skill level)in a random manner. The student has to use the technique's just trained on in the previous class. For our level 10 instructor's test the student is attacked by 3 attackers, for self-defence(holds, grabs, rushes), combat tech(punches and kicks), weapons(knive, club), 75 reps for each one, while standing up, kneeling, sitting in the chair and the side while pushed to the ground(using the legs to defend) and then while being mounted on your back.

Thanks for the details. I am probably about to say essentially the same thing as Gangsterfist. Clearing up our respective definitions of sparring helps. First let me be clear in that I feel you absolutely need to do the types of drills that you mention above. But just doing those pre-defined drills at lower energy levels can give a false sense of security as well. Maybe more so. I believe that both are needed.

Regardless of the details, full sparring to me has the two characteristics of completely unscripted engagement and a realistic level of energy. In other words, don't limit it to starting at a specific range or scenario or using only certain techniques. This is NOT done for conditioning or competition purposes (that is a side benefit). It is done to practice the expression of your kung fu against a completely intent opponent in an unconstrained environment. Backing off from full sparring means slowly bringing some constraints back in, such as using a 50% energy level, et cetera. Can you develop the same skills via much more constrained drills? I guess that I cannot absolutely say no, but I feel strongly that unless you have tested your skills in this manner you cannot be sure. I kinda like to be a little more sure. Thanks again...

Andy

[Chango]

I would like to weigh in on this topic as I find it quite interesting. Personally I feel very deeply that sparring be it controlled or full contact offers a live opponent with living energy and resistance. I feel very strong that it would be extremely difficult to find the same experiences in any other platform. I'm not going to try to compare sparring to controlled drills. It would be like apples and oranges as I see things.

Does a good sparring practitioner equal a good fighter? I can't say this is always true. I can also say that these skills if kept into context do not hurt one's fighting abiltiy. I can say that sparring sets a condition that would be very close to a real situation. Of course you cannot duplicate a real combat situation in a class. But I think sparring gives a great excercise equivilant to a "lab" excercise in a biology class. The conditions of the "lab" or "sparring" are in a controlled atomosphere to guide the students and players in the direction of specific experiences. Thus allowing them to test concepts, theories,and principles. I personally think sparring is a valuable tool in pointing the student in the direction of what is real.

Chango ;)

[anerlich]

Chango is correct.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Katsu,

just do the best you can. Too many guys think, I can't train fulltime and become world champion (or whatever), there's no point doing anything. Two hours a week is a whole lot better than nothing at all. Anything is always better than nothing.

lol i dont wanna be world champion. I just train with friends now. I just dont want to start something that I'll have to end up quitting when the summer is over. That would just be harder on me to quit, and on the sifu to lose a student.

[sihing]

has anyone on here seen the bio on Steven Segal called "Path behond Thought", its bascially a bio on his Aikido, with plenty of old and new demo's of him and interviews with his students. In bio they talk about one of the requirements for a black belt in Steven Segal's Aikido. It basically 1 guy/gal against 3, they sit cross-legged on the floor facing each other while Segal is talking to them, then upon hearing a japenese word shouted by Segal(probably "GO") the 3 attackers attack the 1 student. They are allowed to do anything to the student. I downloaded it from a P2P, it was a interesting form of sparing. I believe this is a standard training technique in Aikido as it also show's Segal doing in in the early days and more recently. What do you guys/gals think of this form of sparring??

sihing

[reneritchie]

James,

Martial arts can help if kept within specific context. Males typically have a problem called 'hero complex', or 'chase 'em, catch 'em, make 'em pay'.

Males with martial arts training, unless they're careful, can sometimes be worse off because they will not avoid situations they should, and will even enter into situations they'd already avoided out of some macho super-hero self-delusion.

The recent tragedy with kick-boxer Alex Gong highlights this.

If martial arts gives you better stress-management, better body-coordination, and if it helps you fight in the small window of situations you need to fight beyond survival instinct, then perhaps it can help (I think Strong is his excellent Strong on Defense book (thanks again Andrew!) puts its importance at about 10% in Self Defense.)

If martial arts fills your ego and gets you stabbed, shot or otherwise dead because you didn't have real self-defense tools at your disposal, then...

Victor,

Fighting, IMHO, is just one component of self-defense, and people have to make sure they don't just improve their fighting skill and ignore the rest and then think they have all the answers. Awareness, mind setting, role-playing, pre-planning, stress-conditioning, and all sorts of other factors need to be addressed.

And while many martial artists seem to think studying a cultural artifact like Karate, Wingchun, BJJ, etc. automatically makes them expert self-defense coaches, physical trainers, life-style gurus, spiritual advisors, nutritionists, etc. etc., unless they have specific training and expertise in each of those fields, IMHO they're doing themselves and their students a disservice .

[old jong]

I once participated in a Wing Chun demo in a big chinese restaurant with my school mates of the times. I had to mimick a drunken guy defending against three while holding a glass full of water! (representing some booze!)
Well the Sifu wanted us to look realistic and it did a bit more than look realistic!...The guys attacked me almost 100% and I had to defend accordingly. One fell on his head when I sweeped him and I kicked another off the stage. The other was chopped in the throat and was looking real bad. Everybody in the audience where looking at us round eyed (even the chinese people !)There was a long silence before the applauds.
I managed to save the water somehow. Was it the nervousness of being on a stage,without any rehearsal and with a few hundreds watching?...I don't know but it produced a "reality show" of some kind.

[old jong]

That book is something to read! A real eye opener for anybody.
I can only recommend reading it to all who care about the "reality" of self-defense.
Thanks for bringing it's subject back Rene!;)

[saifa5k]

Originally posted by Katsu Jin Ken
Do you all spar at your schools or just chi sao?

if so, is it full contact sparring or just point style soft sparring?

Hello,
I love to to spar. Its great fun putting on the gloves and all the padding and going at it full contact. If your art is kickboxing that is. I have yet to figure out how in the world to do real wing chun though with protective padding. Heck 95% of the wing chun I do is open handed. How in the heck does a person do a huen sau with gloves on! Most of my wing chun is open handed so how do I use a spade hand or fak sau to the throat in a sparring situation . I dont really want to maim or kill my partner now do I!

I am afraid I am going to have to disagree on this one. There are many ways that a wing chun person can hone there skills but its not by padding up and just throwing punches. In my sincere opinion the difference in arts that you can spar in and wing chun is that wing chun is for true self defense while the other arts such as BJJ and any type of kickboxing have been turned into sport contest. Oh well, just my opinion.
Dave C

[Miles Teg]

Read Renes post again.

[namron]

Originally posted by sihing
has anyone on here seen the bio on Steven Segal called "Path behond Thought", its bascially a bio on his Aikido, with plenty of old and new demo's of him and interviews with his students. In bio they talk about one of the requirements for a black belt in Steven Segal's Aikido. It basically 1 guy/gal against 3, they sit cross-legged on the floor facing each other while Segal is talking to them, then upon hearing a japenese word shouted by Segal(probably "GO") the 3 attackers attack the 1 student. They are allowed to do anything to the student. I downloaded it from a P2P, it was a interesting form of sparing. I believe this is a standard training technique in Aikido as it also show's Segal doing in in the early days and more recently. What do you guys/gals think of this form of sparring??

sihing

Could have spelt that wrong but sound about where your coming from.

Studied aikido shodokan for about a year amd have a brother inlaw who is a senior instructor, so I managed to see a bit of this stuff between training and watching him grade.

This form of defense is done from the standing position as well as sitting with single or multiple opponents.

Its a good work out but unless Mr Seagal's methods were different most of the attackers rush in with the overhand chop (sword blow sim).

This makes things a little easier to deal with and less random than an any strike goes multiple attacker grading or randori.

The Ji waza generally lasts for more than few minutes however and for the senior gradings both in standing and sitting positions, so fitness is telling to maintain posture and mobility.

[Ultimatewingchun]

saifa5k (Dave C) wrote:

"There are many ways that a wing chun person can hone their skills but its not by padding up and just throwing punches. In my sincere opinion the difference in arts that you can spar in and wing chun is that wing chun is for true self defense while the other arts such as BJJ and any type of kickboxing have been turned into sport contest. Oh well, just my opinion."

While I agree that time should be spent regularly sparring without gloves, since wing chun uses such precise hand/finger striking techniques...the fact still remains that:

A - There are very thin gloves available that leave at least half of each finger exposed...so a harder form of hitting/sparring is possible without risking injury.

B - This wing chun is "for true self defense while certain other arts are not" attitude is BOGUS.

And it is precisely this attitude, IMO, that has contributed - more than any other reason - to the lack of respect (rightfully so) that many practitioners of other arts have for MANY (if not most) people within the wing chun world. (The days of riding Bruce Lee's coat-tails are over).

C) - Without hard contact sparring (and therefore protective equipment is advised)...the very advanced self defense "efficiency" of wing chun remains THEORY...

not reality.

[saifa5k]

HI Victor,
IMHO its quite possible to do light contact "sparring" to develop your wing chun skills. Its not necessary at all to hurt your opponent or take a hard hit in order to prove who is the most profeicient (sp) or skilled. You mentioned yourself that wing chun uses precise techniques that are impossible to do with gloves on. Even light fingerless gloves inhibit a persons sensitivity and "listening" skills and promote a very waterdowned version of the art IMO.

As far as my remarks about true self defense I have studied karate for quite a few years and agree that the original art was a self defense art, however when full contact sparring was introduced into karate many of the self defense applications were lost and replaced with the kick-punch art that is predominant today.

Like I said I used to enjoy the heck out of padding up and going at it but I dont see that this type of sparring contributes to a persons wing chun skill and in fact actually can diminish a persons ability to use the art for self defense.

REspectfully,
Dave c


Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
saifa5k (Dave C) wrote:

"There are many ways that a wing chun person can hone their skills but its not by padding up and just throwing punches. In my sincere opinion the difference in arts that you can spar in and wing chun is that wing chun is for true self defense while the other arts such as BJJ and any type of kickboxing have been turned into sport contest. Oh well, just my opinion."

While I agree that time should be spent regularly sparring without gloves, since wing chun uses such precise hand/finger striking techniques...the fact still remains that:

A - There are very thin gloves available that leave at least half of each finger exposed...so a harder form of hitting/sparring is possible without risking injury.

B - This wing chun is "for true self defense while certain other arts are not" attitude is BOGUS.

And it is precisely this attitude, IMO, that has contributed - more than any other reason - to the lack of respect (rightfully so) that many practitioners of other arts have for MANY (if not most) people within the wing chun world. (The days of riding Bruce Lee's coat-tails are over).

C) - Without hard contact sparring (and therefore protective equipment is advised)...the very advanced self defense "efficiency" of wing chun remains THEORY...

not reality.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dave C wrote:

"It's quite possible to do light contact "sparring" to develop your wing chun skills."

I agree...to a point. But I see value in going beyond that point. You also wrote:

"It's not necessary at all to hurt your opponent or take a hard hit in order to prove who is the most proficient or skilled."

It's not about proving who's the most proficient - at least it's not for me. I advocate hard sparring for a different reason: to accustom oneself to the conditions of "reality-fighting" (wherein someone IS hitting hard). The more we simulate reality (physically, mentally, and emotionally)...the better prepared we become.


"You mentioned yourself that wing chun uses precise techniques that are impossible to do with gloves on. Even light fingerless gloves inhibit a person's sensitivity and 'listening' skills..."

Again, to a point - that's true. But when you go on to say...
"and (light fingerless gloves) promote a very waterdowned version of the art"..

I have to disagree. Not if the sparring is conducted in the manner I'll describe in a minute. But first - you also wrote:

"When full contact sparring was introduced into karate many of the self defense applications were lost and replaced with the kick-punch art that is predominant today...."

I agree with this, Dave. The process can be reversed, though.

"Like I said I used to enjoy the heck out of padding up and going at it but I dont see that this type of sparring contributes to a persons wing chun skill and in fact actually can diminish a persons ability to use the art for self defense."

Only if the training is limited to what you describe.

The kind of sparring that I have found through the years to be the most useful and productive has a constant start/stop/drill/ start-again flavor to it.

A competitive exchange takes place for x amount of seconds/minutes until something happens that was particularly GOOD...or particularly BAD (ie. - a major mistake was made). At which point the sparring stops - and the sequence of preceding moves are reviewed and drilled the right way - if a mistake was made.

And if it was something particularly good - it's reviewed, so that everyone present can see it again...and at a slower pace.

And sometimes the head/face gear and gloves are removed so that the wing chun "subtleties" (ie.- intricate finger or palm strikes to specific vulnerble targets) can be explored and drilled further.

Then the gear goes back on - and we begin again.

[hunt1]

Sparring in a wing chun class---- Limited value,mainly useful to train mental aspects of fighting and get use to contact shock. Majority of time better spent learning how to use the skills that are taught.


Sparring out of class against those that do not practice wing chun-------- PRICELESS if the time is used to lean how to apply wing chun.

[saifa5k]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun


"

"Only if the training is limited to what you describe.

The kind of sparring that I have found through the years to be the most useful and productive has a constant start/stop/drill/ start-again flavor to it.

A competitive exchange takes place for x amount of seconds/minutes until something happens that was particularly GOOD...or particularly BAD (ie. - a major mistake was made). At which point the sparring stops - and the sequence of preceding moves are reviewed and drilled the right way - if a mistake was made.

And if it was something particularly good - it's reviewed, so that everyone present can see it again...and at a slower pace."


Hi Victor,
What you wrote above sounds like a good method to spar. And I do agree that the student has to learn how to function when under extreme stress like one would face in a street situation.

In my old goju club our tests were very long and stressful because the real test was to see how a person performed when under pressure.

One thing I am curious about is how can you perform a full power wing chun technique such as a spade hand to the jaw without seriously hurting someone? Its not that I think sparring is a bad thing, because I do see its usefullness, I just question how it can be done without serious injury?

Dave C

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dave C:

We have customized a martial art helmet by putting a hockey cage facemask on the front of it...it contains quite a few very thin horizontal and vertical metal bars - vision is not really impaired - and no part of the face/jaw can actually be hit...although shock waves will definitely be felt.

And the Century Brand gloves we use do have some protection for the striker on the inside of the hand - if he were to throw palm strikes at such a helmet/mask.

It works.

[saifa5k]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Dave C:

We have customized a martial art helmet by putting a hockey cage facemask on the front of it...it contains quite a few very thin horizontal and vertical metal bars - vision is not really impaired - and no part of the face/jaw can actually be hit...although shock waves will definitely be felt.

And the Century Brand gloves we use do have some protection for the striker on the inside of the hand - if he were to throw palm strikes at such a helmet/mask.

It works.

Very interesting, will have to try it sometime. I do agree that you fight like you practice so the more realism the better.
Dave c

[sihing]

I agree with Dave C and some of what Victor has said, obviously if the stress and pressure is at a higher level in the class environment( therefore more reality) then the actual self defence benefit is better for the student. The question is how much sparring is required after the skill and attributes have already been developed. Does one have to continually spar at the same pace and frequency at this level of skill? Early in my WC training the instructor at that time(who is no longer with the association) had us sparring one another and himself. Since WC was my first serious attempt at Martial arts training I had never sparred before, so I found it to be both a learning and "frightening" experience, especially when I sparred with the instructor. He was much more advanced in WC than I and had previous TKD experience, plus he loved to fight and had that "killer" instinct in him. He knocked the wind out of me(and others) quite a few times and IMO used this as a way to make us respect him more. After he was kicked out of the association, we practiced more group sparring drills where it was 1 against 4 or 5, and more random Chi-sao and perception drills. I know that sparring is not for everyone, and since IMO Wing Chun is a more effective MA, this type of practice is not absolutely neccessary to make one a effective fighter.

Once a person has the WC technique in them, through forms, chi-sao, light sparring drills, then IMO perception abilities are the key to actual combat/self-defence ability. I know for myself that if I was attacked I would not allow myself to just get the snot beat out of me, my body would respond automatically(unless it was a sucker punch, which can be landed on anyone, since it is not seen). WC gives the average person the best tools to make the outcome of a confrontation more in their favor than most any other MA, IMHO.

sihing

[KenWingJitsu]

Y'all dont want me to get started on this one....lol.

But I love anerlichs quote about not wanting to spar LOL.

Good thing is healthy debate will change some attitudes about "fighting" and "sparring". Now let me go and perfect my SLT in the mirror to improve my fighting ability.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Y'all dont want me to get started on this one....lol.
Didn't we go around in much the same circles about this time last year?:rolleyes:

Bill

[anerlich]

I've yet to see a pro golfer, tennis player, snooker/pool player or anyone else whose livelihood depends on their ability to perform physically who didn't undertake constant match practice. We've all heard of guys who were in hospital, POW camps, etc. who couldn't train, relied on visualisation etc. and still had game, but they are exceptional, and I'd bet if they had the choice they would still have done the match practice.

Why MA (performance, not image) is somehow different escapes me.

You might be able to maintain skill by doing drills, etc., which will make you real good at doing drills. If you want to maintain fighting skill, you'll maintain it a lot easier, and find it a lot easier to improve, if you spar regularly, IMNSHO.

You might theorise that once you develop perceptual skills, they will remain forever, but how would you KNOW unless you test them regularly in a live environment?

[anerlich]

Didn't we go around in much the same circles about this time last year?

Yeah, the merry go round keeps spinning, different kids get on and off. Someone new might have an insight, someone else might have had an experience that changed their view.

Not such a bad thing IMO.

[yuanfen]

Didn't we go around in much the same circles about this time last year?

Bill
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Same circles and much the same POVs.

Verrry interesting? Not.

[saifa5k]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Didn't we go around in much the same circles about this time last year?

Bill
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Same circles and much the same POVs.

Verrry interesting? Not.


Then why bother if you find this thread boring? Perhaps you would like to enlighten us? I for one am taking a new perspective on sparring in wing chun thanks to the discussion with Victor so I find this discussion productive. I would be very interested to hear your pov and your reasoning behind it......after all we all dont have your years and years and years of experience ;).

Dave c

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Good thing is healthy debate will change some attitudes about "fighting" and "sparring". (KWJ)

I believe that too.

"Now let me go and perfect my SLT in the mirror to improve my fighting ability." (KWJ)

SLT's great right before chi sao, anyway. But then what?

SPARRING!!!


"The merry go round keeps spinning, different kids get on and off. Someone new might have an insight, someone else might have had an experience that changed their view. " (Anerlich)

Here's some of those "kids" coming right now...


"I for one am taking a new perspective on sparring in wing chun thanks to the discussion with Victor so I find this discussion productive." (Dave C)

You had an open mind which was conducive to a good free flow of ideas - kinda like some good chi sao!

"So I found it to be both a learning and 'frightening' experience, especially when I sparred with the instructor. He was much more advanced in WC than I and had previous TKD experience, plus he loved to fight and had that 'killer' instinct in him. He knocked the wind out of me (and others) quite a few times and IMO used this as a way to make us respect him more. After he was kicked out of the association, we practiced more group sparring drills...."

(James Roller...sihing)

Now this is just a wild guess - but maybe your first instructor's selfish, egotistical, bullying attitude made a very negative first impression upon you...about sparring.

Time to reconsider?

[sihing]

Quote: Anerlich
"I've yet to see a pro golfer, tennis player, snooker/pool player or anyone else whose livelihood depends on their ability to perform physically who didn't undertake constant match practice. We've all heard of guys who were in hospital, POW camps, etc. who couldn't train, relied on visualisation etc. and still had game, but they are exceptional, and I'd bet if they had the choice they would still have done the match practice."

since when are we making a living at this WC (unless you are a professional at it which means a full time instructor) or since when are we competing or fighting against the world’s best? If I was in prison and had to defend myself on a daily basis then yeah I would practice allot more and maybe even try some sparring again, but since I'm a law abiding citizen that's not the case. I remember watching an interview of Emin Boztepe, and I actually had to agree with what he said regarding the subject being talked about. He was referring to what type of situations the average person would have to face on the street and if WC is effective enough for it. Obviously he thinks WC is effective but he also said that to face a professional fighter one should be a professional Martial Artist, which to me means one that lives and breath's the art, one the generates income from it and one that leads/guides others in the progression through the art. Most people will never reach levels like that unless the dedication and desire is there. As a teacher you should have a greater knowledge than the students so that each and every question/scenario can be answered or dealt with. The average student learning the art, that has no ambition to ever teach it to another, does not need this higher level of understanding. All they need to know is how the technique is applied, the variables involved and why it is the way it is, and practice.

I guess it all depends on what you think you will be facing on the street. If you are in an area of the country/city where violent crime is at a high rate, then yeah maybe it’s needed to prepare more for a possible encounter, but I myself live in a city of almost 1 million people and feel safe enough walking down the street. Allot of protecting oneself is what you do before the confrontation even begins, as I'm sure allot of us already know that are on this forum, if you look like and act like a victim you will become one. I've learned a few tricks that never even give me the opportunity to get into a confrontation. For example, when in a room full of people I usually ignore all the men their, beside my male friends, I do not acknowledge their existence therefore no "bad vibes" are given out to anyone of them. Most guys check out who the competition is and then start the old stare em down routine, which for the most part is what starts the confrontation right off the bat. Also I find that when one has learned how to defend themselves, others recognize this somehow in that person, through the confidence the exibit or the way the hold themselves. Think of this senario, the house robber has two houses to choose from, one with the alarm and one without. Which one should the smart robber choose? The one that's easier to get into I would assume, lol. Same with combat, people are always sizing up one another, if the guy thinks its going to be a hard fought battle with one that may have some MA/fighting abilities then he will probably pick another. Simple logic I think.

Victor, I forgot the end of the story with the instructor I used to have to spar with all the time. Before he got the boot, I will say that the beatings we took from him got less and less severe, up to the point that we even started to give as much as we took. At this point the instructor stopped sparring with us good guys and tried the same thing with the juniors below us. Yes it maybe be more of a neccessity to spar at the junior levels so they can learn a few lesson, but when the lessons have been learned do you have to keep on "reading the same book"? Of course stopping all training will greatly decrease your combat ability, but usually when one has trained in the arts for a long period of time it becomes a part of them and their lives, habits are developed, and one learns smarter ways to sustain skill levels.



sihing

[yuanfen]

Comments on dave c post in brackets_

Then why bother if you find this thread boring?

((Didnt bother much. Pointed (quite briefly)to the repetitious cycles and the POVs. Similar to Matrix's observation))

Perhaps you would like to enlighten us? I for one am taking a new perspective on sparring in wing chun thanks to the discussion with Victor so I find this discussion productive.

((Forum discussions can influence...))

I would be very interested to hear your pov and your reasoning behind it......after all we all dont have your years and years and years of experience .

((sarcasm can be amusing but does not necessarily deserve a response.Hence-that and the comment on experience with a smiley attached-ignored.
To others-
Sparring with gloves early can arrest- listening skills and wing chun
motion development. With good wing chun development one can adapt to many things including gloves. Involves careful attention
to the individuals stage of development and in the ability to make the right adjustments for the right reasons in positioning, moving, stancing among other things..
Some sparring can overcome some folk's fear of contact.However-
One can work on contact without gloves as well-again depending on development including self control.. General repetition or advocacy imo of "spar" misses the nuances. Without a trained and knowledgeable observer and sharing observer present- sparring can reinforce bad habits for lots of folks without teaching new long lasting skills.))

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Without a trained and knowledgeable observer and sharing observer present - sparring can reinforce bad habits for lots of folks without teaching new long lasting skills." (Yuanfen)

True. That's why sparring on a regular basis (with and without gloves and other protective gear)...should be supervised by a trained and skilled instructor.

There is no substitute for hard sparring - if one wants to train as realistically as possible. And HARD sparring must include protective gear and gloves in order to avoid injuries.

There's no mystery here.

[Matrix]

Dave c,
It's not so much boring as non-productive. The point is that it's the same people arguing the same points with each other. I'm glad you're finding it useful. However, my comments are no more or less valid than yours.
As for enlightenment, there is only self-enlightenment. It would be best if you look inward for that. However I can offer one suggestion, lighten up on the sarcasm, it doesn't serve you

Bill

[Matrix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Without a trained and knowledgeable observer and sharing observer present- sparring can reinforce bad habits for lots of folks without teaching new long lasting skills.)) Maybe I'm wrong, but I think this applies equally to chi sao or any other form of training.

Bill

[yuanfen]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think this applies equally to chi sao or any other form of training.

Bill
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In varying degrees yes. One can punch a wall bag on ones own after being shown. Some other things as well.

One has to be one's own person- you have to stand on your own feet. Buta good and competent guide can save one so much grief...
especially in the early years.

[Tom Kagan]

Martial arts is supposed to have EVERYTHING to do with Self Defense...and most (if not all) martial arts were designed to be real-fight self defense arts...ORIGINALLY. (Including Wing Chun).



Interesting ... How much time do you devote to improving your technique in the 100 yard dash? The 440? Hurdling? The steeplechase? Which self-defense martial arts train (or historically trained) these skills?

If running should be the first option when confronted with a scenario where martial art training might prove useful, then it stands to reason that the practitioner studying the "... martial arts [that] were designed to be real-fight self defense arts ..." would train to improve their technique in sprinting and/or negotiating objects while running. It would be, at the very least, as important as a good punch.

[Miles Teg]

Interesting comments by Sihing on self defense.

Putting the sparring debate aside I agree with him that there are more important things you can do in preparation to protect yourself against violent crime.


Here is a story a non-martial art friend told me the other day. He is teaching English here in Japan but he used to be an airforce pilot in Okinawa. He told me that alot of the marines were thugs and would mug you for money as their pay wasnt so good. He said airforce pilots were often picked on by these types.

Anyway he was walking back to base alone after drinking (first mistake I guess), then he noticed two marines following him at a distance. He thought there might be some trouble but he was at a safe distance so didnt worry too much until 2 more people appeared on the road infront of him. Now he knew he was in trouble. What he did next impressed the hell out of me. He pulled his wallet out of his pocket and started holding it like a cell phone. He kept talking into his imaginary cell phone while looking at the men infront and turning around to look at the men behind. Making it look like he was setting them up to bust them or something. They soon disappeared and he got back safely.

Just a great example of self defense. I personally dont think martial art skills hold much value in violent assaults unless someone calls you out in which case it can be easy to avoid unless you have something to prove. You got to think in terms of the main motivation behind a violent assault. They want something, and they are not interested in fair fighting rules to get it. They will tip the odds in their favour anyway they can.

But if you want to be a good fighter (in terms of squarring off one on one with someone) I can see how sparring etc could be a valuable tool for this.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Without hard sparring there is no efficient preparation for real combat.
Without training for all kinds of scenarios that include more than just striking, kicking, and trapping - TINEPFRC.
Without training to defend against takedowns and throws - TINEPFRC.
Without training in how to use takedowns and throws - TINEPFRC.
Without training for the possibility of being on the ground - TINEPFRC.
Without training against other fighting styles - TINEPFRC.
Without training against multiple opponents - TINEPFRC.
Without strict and disciplined body conditioning regimentation - TINEPFRC.
Without the inclusion of stretching, aerobics, and strengthening as part of that regimentation - TINEPFRC.
Without training for unarmed self defense against weapons - TINEPFRC.
Without training in the use of weapons - TINEPFRC.
Without training in a very mobile and potentially explosive footwork - TINEPFRC.
Without training in how to use and defend arm and elbow locks - TINEPFRC.
Without training how to use and defend choke holds, headlocks, and bear hugs - TINEPFRC.
Without training in how to put all of the above together as one coherent whole - TINEPFRC.

[anerlich]

since when are we making a living at this WC (unless you are a professional at it which means a full time instructor) or since when are we competing or fighting against the world’s best?

You miss the point, which is that for *anyone* to reach *THEIR* highest levels in a physical, and especially competitive, and especially combative, endeavor, "match" practice is essential. If survival is your aim, you are still going to need to PERFORM.

This applies to professional sportsmen, weekend warriors, and hobbyists. If you prefer not to be able to perform to the very best of your ability at the moment of truth, we have little in common.

The ponit of martial skill being much less important than other attributes in real self defense is well taken. Some may recall I introduced Strong's book to many on the list.

However, IF you claim you are training WC for self defense (albeit a small part thereof), the question still remains: how do get the best results (keeping your purposes in mind) from your training?

[sihing]

Anerlich, I can see some of your points. Yes more practice would make me/us better at what we are doing, the old motto "Practice makes perfect" is incorrect, it should read "Practice makes improvement". I guess we could all get better at it if that's what we want to do. That's the key question. I myself am confident that my ability is sufficient to handle most of what could happen on the street, although I do not practice as much as I used to. I can honestly say that I think I have improved since my level 10 grading. My understanding is better and my technique is tighter than ever. Is my cardio as good, nope probably not, but I believe my relexes and eyes are faster now than then. If my training had completely stopped since then(96') I would not have improved at all, so I do agree that some kind of continous training besides forms practice has to be there.

Today I like to practice just for the sake of practice, not really with the intention or thought that this practice session will improve my self-defence abilities, I find pleasure in just training at times.

sihing

[saifa5k]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]Comments on dave c post in brackets_

Then why bother if you find this thread boring?

I would be very interested to hear your pov and your reasoning behind it......after all we all dont have your years and years and years of experience .

((sarcasm can be amusing but does not necessarily deserve a response.Hence-that and the comment on experience with a smiley attached-ignored.

**LOL, well apparently it got one didnt it!


To others-

**Uh, Joy, trying hard to be civil here but it was I (Dave c) that asked for your comments since you interjected yourself into the thread by making your condescending comments regarding the thread.

Sparring with gloves early can arrest- listening skills and wing chun

**Yes, that is true IMO which I believe is also the point that I made earlier in the disucssion.

Some sparring can overcome some folk's fear of contact.

**Again one of the main points of the thread, so it appears that in actuality that your outlook on sparring is not that much different than the rest of us mere mortals ;).


Without a trained and knowledgeable observer and sharing observer present- sparring can reinforce bad habits for lots of folks without teaching new long lasting skills.))

**I couldnt agree with you more so my question is why didnt you post these thoughts in the first place. Wasnt all that hard now was it! Thank you for you comments you may go back to your mountain top now ;))).

Dave c