Tai chi ground fighting vid.

[Liokault]

This is a guy I know. He trained with my teacher......what do you think about his ideas?

Ground fighting ideas and some Vid clips (http://www.shadowhand.org.uk/groundfighting/)

[MasterKiller]

I see lots of takedowns....where is the groundfighting?

[Phrost]

I watched those videos with an open mind.

Unfortunately, it all looks like poorly understood and applied grappling.

For example:

http://www.shadowhand.org.uk/groundfighting/dslegs_pin.mpg

This has to be the worst double leg takedown I've seen in a long time. You're not supposed to try and pick the other guy up, you drop your knee and slam into him so you can, with a minimum of effort, pull his legs out from under him and land in side control.

And what is with all the 'donkey punches the chocolate starfish'? Do flowery sounding names make the techniques work better, or do they just serve to obfuscate the true sources of the techniques?

"Duh... 'Double Leg Takedown?'... no no no, we can't call it that. Let's call it 'Double Seize the Legs' Yeah, nobody'll be the wiser!"

It's just bad groundfighting.

[Ray Pina]

The theory is correct and I like a few of the applications.

I don't want to be critical, because I think it is important for all CMA to be thinking this way and looking to expand their game to the ground. With that said, some of the examples looked a little too "busy" and might be difficult to pull off in real time VS real foe... but its definitely doing in the right direction and I understand posting examples is tough because you want to show your flavor and idea but not give out too much and at the same time protect the guy your demonstrating on and everyone's a God **** critic in this field.

[The Willow Sword]

I understand the need for demos to be relatively slow to demonstrate the technique,However, i feel that in order to really test these techniques to see if they truely work, you need to speed it up and put full on contact. Video tape THAT and see the reactions as to effectiveness from the more experienced ground fighters here.

As for what i think of it,,,based on what i saw i will have to agree with Phrost in that it seems as though those techniques are Poorly understood by the practitioners.
I dont think that CMA has to try to conform to the groundfighting ideals that so many seem to follow these days. The factors of a fight on the ground or standing up are a totally different manner when it is not in the ring with rules,,be they no holds barred matches or whatever. I do understand a few of the groundfighting techniques in certain CMA like Shuai chaio, tiger,etc.
I think that Taichi is fine where it is in relation to everything else, besides, there needs to be an internal aspect to the movements of the body and tai chi gives this to us. do not try to make tai chi something that it is NOT. Tai chi is not about ground fighting.

Peace,,,TWS

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Phrost
I watched those videos with an open mind.

Unfortunately, it all looks like poorly understood and applied grappling.

For example:

http://www.shadowhand.org.uk/groundfighting/dslegs_pin.mpg

This has to be the worst double leg takedown I've seen in a long time. You're not supposed to try and pick the other guy up, you drop your knee and slam into him so you can, with a minimum of effort, pull his legs out from under him and land in side control.



There are lots of finishes to a double. That was a pretty weak takedown, but not for that reason.

[Phrost]

I'm aware of that. But the point is, he was TRYING to do the standard double leg, and was just screwing it all up, as is evidenced by the correct placement of his knee between the legs.

He knew the basics of the takedown, but couldn't put it together properly even for the demo.

Not trying to nitpick here, but if you're going to show a demo of something, get it right. Had that other guy been resisting, he'd have ended up mounted on the shooter.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Phrost
I'm aware of that. But the point is, he was TRYING to do the standard double leg, and was just screwing it all up,

I don't doubt that it was a poor shot, but I have to question your assumption that any of the many available finishes is 'standard', in all that that implies.

[Phrost]

Standard as far as I know, and we've got a high school wrestling coach and a few former HS wrestling state and regional champions on our fight team.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Phrost
Standard as far as I know, and we've got a high school wrestling coach and a few former HS wrestling state and regional champions on our fight team.

That may be their take on things, but its news to me.

[Ray Pina]

I disagree about Taiji and ground fighting. Taiji, real taiji, can fight on the ground, can fight on the street corner, can fight in the ring.... if you are better than the other guy and playing by the same rules (even if that = no rules) than the more skilled guy wins.

I just lost in a ring match and its easy to say I was hitting the guy but the big gloves and head gear made it so it wasn't enough damage and I got tired.

Though somewhat true -- and I believe I could have taken the medal from that guy outside of the tournmanet if I wanted too -- there is a greater truth ... that guy beat me under those circumstances. People where heavy jackets, heavy winter gloves, people slip on banana peels.

Martial artists need to prepare for all the posibilities, just not the ones we chose or standout in.

My strenght is certainly stand up, but because of that I am working the ground game and still using internal principles. Not even "using", of course it's internal principles. I train everyday to use certain mechanics and that applies no matter the position.

[Meat Shake]

"I'm aware of that. But the point is, he was TRYING to do the standard double leg, and was just screwing it all up, as is evidenced by the correct placement of his knee between the legs."

Hehehe... I cant even count how many videos of horribly done shoots there are by kung fu people demonstrating how to defend the shoot.
Seems to me that they would have gotten someone with a good shoot for the vids...
And as far as taiji and ground fighting goes...
Why is it trying to be something its not? Taijiquan is an excellent standup game if you know what you are doing, but dont delude yourself into thinking the same theories and principals apply on the ground. When you are on your back your leverage and balance is completely different than when you are standing. Different situations call for different techniques. Just because taiji doesnt have groundfighting doesnt make it any less valuable.

[Phrost]

Originally posted by unkokusai


That may be their take on things, but its news to me.

Ok, I'll bite.

What's your wrestling experience/background?

[Phrost]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
Why is it trying to be something its not? Taijiquan is an excellent standup game if you know what you are doing, but dont delude yourself into thinking the same theories and principals apply on the ground. When you are on your back your leverage and balance is completely different than when you are standing. Different situations call for different techniques. Just because taiji doesnt have groundfighting doesnt make it any less valuable.

That's the problem. People get into this mindset that their art has to be the 'be all and end all' of arts, and that it covers every possible fighting scenario.

And that's BS, because I guarantee when you've got 5 midgets armed with butane torches coming after you your art's founder didn't incorporate this scenario into his secret Moo Shu Liu Kang form.

Yes, I'm being a smartass. But the point is that revising your art's history to include other techniques into it, and then pretending they were there all along, is bullshido.

Focus on what your art does best, and cross train in another art that does something else better. What is shameful about taking some Savate to learn some wicked boot kicks, or Sambo to learn some great leg locks?

I'll tell you why: to do so would admit that your art has flaws, and it's easier for some people to bury their heads in the sand than it is for them to adapt and overcome.

Technically, I'm a Wushu/Wing Chun/BJJ/Wrestling/Muay Thai/Boxing/Judo guy.

And I have no shame in admitting it.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Phrost


Ok, I'll bite.

What's your wrestling experience/background?

Not that it makes me an expert on terminology, as I've seen that it may vary from place to place, but I have more than 20 years experience wrestling, coaching, and just rollin' whenever I can. 5 of those years were Div. 1 NCAA Wrestling, for whatever that's worth. And thisthatandtheotherthing. The point is, I found it unexpected that you would consider one finish or another to be the 'standard' as the finish would usually be dictated by a number of factors that you would not necessarily control.

[Phrost]

Would "basic" have been a better word? "Ideal"?

Ideally, at least when it comes to MMA applications of the shoot, you want to land in side control, and this is the 'ideal' way of doing it.

I got dumped on my keister last week REALLY good by a proper double leg (the guy did a brilliant fake jab + level change), which semantics aside, I'd consider the 'standard' for how you do that shot. :)

So I could have used 'basic' or 'standard' or 'common' or a few other terms. But standard was what was on the brain at the moment, and that's the first double leg variation we teach at our gym.

Make more sense?

[Kristoffer]

Originally posted by unkokusai


Not that it makes me an expert on terminology, as I've seen that it may vary from place to place, but I have more than 20 years experience wrestling, coaching, and just rollin' whenever I can. 5 of those years were Div. 1 NCAA Wrestling, for whatever that's worth. And thisthatandtheotherthing. The point is, I found it unexpected that you would consider one finish or another to be the 'standard' as the finish would usually be dictated by a number of factors that you would not necessarily control.

you forgot about your ca 150 post long career as a troll on kfo, koko.

[Shooter]

Taijiquan is an excellent standup game if you know what you are doing, but dont delude yourself into thinking the same theories and principals apply on the ground

I developed my school's Tai Chi Fast-wrestling set based on nothing but TCC principles and methods. Some of us have competed and done quite well.

Tim Cartmell is a high-level BJJer who also teaches IMA. He seems to think that the principles are interchangable.

There are a few others who aren't afraid to adapt and renovate their Tai Chi Chuan in order to better understand the principles beyond stylism.

[Shooter]

As for the clips, the guy should really test his TCC against some skilled grapplers. He'd have a better idea of where to start in structuring a ground-fighting set which is congruent with TCC's tactical and strategic premises.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Kristoffer


you forgot about your ca 150 post long career as a troll on kfo, koko.

Wha????????:confused:

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Phrost

So I could have used 'basic' or 'standard' or 'common' or a few other terms. But standard was what was on the brain at the moment, and that's the first double leg variation we teach at our gym.

Make more sense?

Fair enough

[Water Dragon]

These clips make me glad I'm training with the MMA crowd.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
These clips make me glad I'm training with the MMA crowd.


What most of you guys are missing is that this is just a Tai Chi guy throwing some ideas about.

I didnt link it for a critique on their double leg take down....its not what they do, so they are ok doing it badly.

What I was after really are opinions about what they are doing, where else they can go and how you apply tai chi principles to ground fighting.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Liokault



I didnt link it for a critique on their double leg take down....its not what they do, so they are ok doing it badly.

What I was after really are opinions about what they are doing, .

????????????????????

How do you reconcile these two statements?

[Liokault]

Originally posted by unkokusai


????????????????????

How do you reconcile these two statements?


Yes unkokusai I am impressed. With almost no editing you managed to miss understand a simple post.

There were about 7 other clips in there.

What about the rest of the stuff on the site? Going in the right direction or should they just give up?

The guys you see are all relatively new to Tai Chi and our double leg is a bit differant to a MMA one, mainly because you should remain standing at the end of it. These two reasons are probably why it looked so bad.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Liokault



The guys you see are all relatively new to Tai Chi and our double leg is a bit differant to a MMA one, mainly because you should remain standing at the end of it. These two reasons are probably why it looked so bad.

Now you providing something! Are you saying that the intention is never to go to a knee, or that you should be on your feet at the end of the shot?

[Liokault]

Ok I don't want to get side tracked into the whole shoot issue here because its not what this thread should be about.

Having said that.

We do our double leg take down by.

1/ step deep inside your opponents stance (assuming he has one leg forwards). You should have the opposite leg forwards to your opponent (from your POV)

2/ the shoulder should strike as low as possible into your opponents gut area to drive them off balance. Same shoulder as lead leg.

3/ pull out the legs and at same time turn the shoulder to push them into their void (i.e in a direction where they have no leg)

This should leave you standing and your opponent on his back in front of you either with his legs spread out side of yours or with you holding his legs.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Liokault

We do our double leg take down by.

1/ step deep inside your opponents stance (assuming he has one leg forwards). You should have the opposite leg forwards to your opponent (from your POV)

2/ the shoulder should strike as low as possible into your opponents gut area to drive them off balance. Same shoulder as lead leg.

3/ pull out the legs and at same time turn the shoulder to push them into their void (i.e in a direction where they have no leg)

This should leave you standing and your opponent on his back in front of you either with his legs spread out side of yours or with you holding his legs.

Ok. Sort of a high standing double I guess. That's fine. Not exactly the highest percentage takedown in the world though.

And does this mean that the fella in the video, who seemed to be trying to take a dropstep, was doing something wrong in that particular regard? And if he was, why was that chosen for the video? Wouldn't you choose a better representation of your 'thing'? And why not drill a double with the dropstep and the whole thing, as long as you are recognizing a double as a target move. Why exclude one (and the more likely one) version of a double?

Ah, now this is more interesting!

[Liokault]

Originally posted by unkokusai



And does this mean that the fella in the video, who seemed to be trying to take a dropstep, was doing something wrong in that particular regard?


Was he doing somthing wrong? Or was he just trying to be more 'MMA' for his opponent?

As for who how they picked clips......well I feel they taped them selfs playing and picked out bits they felt might be interesting to the public rather than taping items specificaly to be put up on the internet.

[norther practitioner]

Some of there apps look similar to what I've been doing. As far as the ground fighting thing, it is just to the ground, and the position they are in once they get there. The only thing that I have no idea what is going on is the double leg vid... The step back repulse monkey is a bit different to what I do, I usually think of that as a one two with a kick and a punch, or a sweep and a push (the one where you get your front foot past theres, push high, pull your leg back). I've seen white crane as a hip toss, but I also know it as a defensive move for a three move combo (jab, cross, bag leg front sweep). I liked some of it, I didn't like some of it, but then again, I didn't get to feal, so I won't really pass too much judgement based on that.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Liokault



Was he doing somthing wrong?

That's my question to you. You said that you were taught not to go to a knee, yet he did.

[Liokault]

unkokusai, do you read before you edit?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Liokault
unkokusai, do you read before you edit?

Yes.

What is the answer?

[KungFuGuy!]

Bandwidth limit exceeded, can someone repost it?

[shaolin kungfu]

From the vids I didn't see a whole lot of "ground fighting". The takedowns looked kind of sloppy, and versus a grappler I'd say they wouldn't fair so well (pure grappling match, that is.)

I think what liokault is looking for is more a critique on the idea behind what they're doing, rather than the actual techniques themselves. Are tai chi principles applicable to grappling and ground fighting? With a whole lot of refinement on the techs, I'd say yes.

I actually don't see a lot of difference between tai chi and BJJ, in that they both seem (I only took a little tai chi, so I can't say for sure) to emphasize position and leverage over strength.

But I know almost nothing of takedowns, BJJ, or tai chi, so what do i know.

[norther practitioner]

Depends on how you train taiji...

The yang that we do has a lot of throws in it.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

bandwidth exceeded.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
bandwidth exceeded.

Then try this one (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/shadowhand/vids/groundfighting/index.html)

[Ray Pina]

If your style has sound basic principles, they should be able to carry over onto the ground..... Yes, you lose the leverage associated with leg pushing angles, but if you can keep a strong structure and get a good lock -- and have been trained properly -- you will find the leverage from somewhere, from raising a hip, from simply holding the neck lock and rolling like an alligator, ect.

I do not study Taiji with my master but have visited that class and they certainly can play on the ground. But their standout performance is using "play with the ball" to attack the head during the shoot.

E-chuan can, does and will play on the ground ... we are an internal style. I highly respect MMA, but what style is it? The ground game comes from somewhere else, the stand up from somewhere else, ect. Do you think you guys are the only ones with eyes and brains? The only ones that see what is happening in MA?

Don't be like Chinese Kung Fu who lives off of their lineage. Don't live off of the three letters M-M-A. Yes, that method is proving to be succesful for some, but for those practioners posting here, let's see personal footage/records.

No way is the best way. But all good, true ways are preparing for all situations.... even against a band of midgets, if I have to fight I will want to keep my door closed, open their doors, hit .... and then look to run like hell.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Liokault


Then try this one (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/shadowhand/vids/groundfighting/index.html)

some of those were good. a couple i was like wtf... but the simple ones worked well. one or two i disagre with. but good none the less.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
If your style has sound basic principles, they should be able to carry over onto the ground.....

E-chuan can, does and will play on the ground ... we are an internal style. I highly respect MMA, but what style is it? The ground game comes from somewhere else, the stand up from somewhere else, ect. Do you think you guys are the only ones with eyes and brains? The only ones that see what is happening in MA? It's not a matter of looking and seeing what is happening. It is a matter of understanding that things on the ground are not the same as they are when standing.
The ground is a completely different world than is standing. Here are just a few examples...

- If you punch when in the top mounted position, you will most likely do damage or finish your opponent.

- If you punch when in the bottom mounted position, you will do very little damage and will be setting yourself up for an arm bar.

- If you extend your arm when someone is in your guard, it is no problem.

- If you extend your arm when in someone's guard, you are in danger of being arm locked.

- If you are in someone's guard, and have one arm outside of the legs and the other one in, you are in danger of the triangle.

- Escaping from a rear choke with the hooks in is completely different than with no hooks.

- When standing, there is no danger of being leg locked. On the ground, it is almost always something you need to be concerned with, whatever your position.

- Controlling a person's movements on the ground is specific to the ground.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Phrost
You're not supposed to try and pick the other guy up, you drop your knee and slam into him so you can, with a minimum of effort, pull his legs out from under him and land in side control. I disagree. There several standard double leg finishes where the initiator drops his level, penetrates, and changes levels again while picking up the opponent.

[omarthefish]

I was wondering about that too but avoided posting it because my credentials as a grappler are . . . less than stellar.:D But I've seen some sweet suplex type manouvers off a shoot and have to wonder how you do that without picking someone up. The double leg I learned from a local Sanda guy involved picking the guy up as well.

p.s. The "double seize the legs" (rofl @ the name) still sucked a$$.

[Shooter]

Omar, you can do a low supplex by sitting back and doing a backward somersault, at the same, bringing the opp with you by lifting and propelling them backward with your penetrating leg against their coccyx. They end up on their front and you on their back.

We practice it that way for safety when we're on a hard surface. :D

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

there have been a couple generally constructive suggestions on this thread so far, but most of you guys should chill just a little bit.

yeah ... even as a non grappler i saw some flaws with the double leg, but the video really didn't have that hey look at me .. see how good i am ... feel to it anyway. i also wouldnt be suprised if they are already doing them a little better. most of the stuff didn't look terrible at all, just unpracticed in some areas.

keep in mind these guys aren't opening up a bjj school either ... they're just some traditional standup fighters trying some stuff out and looking for advice. i think they ought to be getting more props for that.

there was a couple things i saw that looked a little iffy to me, but i have a hard time putting them into words without a decent background in grappling. maybe some of you grapplers are catching the same things and can point them in the right direction instead of just saying they're ****ing it up. people get defencive and don't listen as well when you tell them they're ****ing it up.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
keep in mind these guys aren't opening up a bjj school either ... they're just some traditional standup fighters trying some stuff out and looking for advice. i think they ought to be getting more props for that.

werd GDA. more constructiveness, not all this dissing.

[Ray Pina]

Knife fighter, I agree with you that fighting standing and fighting on the ground are different, but I also believe they are the same.

Everything you said is true, but I don't look at that as some secret information .... its information that is apparant to anyone who spends time on the ground. Just like a standup fighter knows to have their lead knee cheat to the inside a bit to cover the groin, you should avoid certain situations on the ground.... and extending an arm is always a gamble on the ground or standing up.

They are different is some ways but the biggest obsticle is getting over the new location in the mind and staying calm and adhearing to sound principles of not extending, controlling your position and structure, ect.

I believe when it comes to MA people like to make things seem harder than they are. Nothing is out of reach, you just have to be willing to go down there and explore.

The big lesson I learned on the ground last week directly relates to something I learned in stand up a while ago .... there is no form. And by this I mean who ask someone "what did I do?", its actually kidn of hard to pin point a "what". The lock just falls into place or the jamming up just happens that allows the strike or the devestating low kick.

Not sure I got my point across but I'm understinding this more and more everyday and I guess that's all that really matters in the end for now.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
... and extending an arm is always a gamble on the ground or standing up. That's not true at all. You can safely extend your arm when you have the top mounted position, have someone inside your guard, or have side control.

[Ray Pina]

I got my legs around someones arm and made them tap when they were standing above me just the other day. He was leaning in trying to strike and one time he got sloppy and tried to push my shielding hand out of the way ..... both legs went up, sciccored his arm while I held on and started to turn.:cool: ........ I have to admit, it was one of the finer moments in my relatively short ground career..... he was a judo guy.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I got my legs around someones arm and made them tap when they were standing above me just the other day. He was leaning in trying to strike and one time he got sloppy and tried to push my shielding hand out of the way ..... both legs went up, sciccored his arm while I held on and started to turn.:cool: ........ I have to admit, it was one of the finer moments in my relatively short ground career..... he was a judo guy. That pretty much proves the point about ground fighting being different from fighting while standing. You don't stand over someone and deliver punches. You deliver the punches from either the mount or knee ride position. If he would have understood that punches are only thrown from certain positions, you could not have taken his arm.

[Liokault]

Some quotes from the "Wudang tai chi Yahoo group"



I recently had a bloke tried to take me down on the steet... He
didn't suceed(and i don't know wot I did either) but the result were
he had a bleeding temple and I stay firmly on the ground!.

I like 2 confirm that TCC is the only art I know. I had spar with a

This guy thinks hes ready



Personally I would rather practise staying on mmy feet and look to counter

This guys about 10 years behind.


. . Also there is more to
'ground fighting' than fighting on the ground or the techniques used by ground
the fighters you allude to. there is protectiing yourself with a guard,
getting back to yr feet etc etc. there is also learning how to beat people who
go to ground by staying on your feet.

same guy as above.





Over the years I have been lucky enough to have some of the best grapplers in
Europe (rob Sulski - ADCC Euro champ, James Zikic - UFC fighter, Matt Groves -
KSBO international champ, Lee Hasdell - 1st pro shootfighter in U.K) as sparring
partners and did compete quite a bit in submission comps and some vale tudo. So
I have a fair idea of how Tai Chi relates to the ground game.

The vast majority of my daily training has alway been Tai Chi based, and this
training has served me very well. The ability to make strong structures with the
body (yand Nei Kung), issuing force in a sharp,explosive way, and utilising the
fundamental Tai Chi strategies can and should lead dominance on the floor in
much the same way as olympic wrestlers usually have physical dominance on the
ground in terms of position, because of their use of structures and leverages.
Watch an olympic wrestler vs BJJ and wrestler is 95% of the time in the top
position.

Now this guy I want to train with......but not in tai chi.

[Ray Pina]

He actually was half kneeling, half standing ... you know when you're fighting for that position and using your knees to kind of ride the guys guardng legs up, or pin them to a side to get in? (have to excuse my lack of official termanology)

He felt me relaxing and felt he had control and tried to pop me a few times.... one grazed me, the second one I captured and good God it all fell into place.

I do understand what you're saying and agree that TKD would have a very hard time incorporating their stuff onto the ground because they lack core basics, they lack a delivery system. But I think styles like Salat, Wing Chun, Ba Gua, Hsing-I, styles with core trapping, locking and power issuing principles can learn to visit the ground comfortably, though chosing not to live there.

Will they ever be better at ground fighting than ground fighters? Of course not. One exceeds where they put the time in, but they should be looking and I don't think one has to study BJJ to get it. Sometimes someone can be so sure about their technique they don't see some holes. We have a Gracie student training with us now and we're seeing some stuff now.

Of course, no one believes ya until you get into a cage and prove it and I agree with that somewhat. I have to prove something to myself regarding San Da (I can't walk away knowing that I lost in this format) than I really want to get into King of the Cage and other such events ... I believe that's where E-Chuan can best show its stuff. I'm hoping 1.5 years.