Xingyi Wooden Fist

[blackmantis]

I've heard that Xingyi's wooden element punch is the most powerful of ALL Chinese straight punches.

Am very interested, can anyone tell me anything more about it?

S

[Buddy]

It's the puncher not the punch. Bengquan uses good internal mechanics but if you don't know them it's just a punch. Like a teacher once said, "Hard to hard, strong always wins."

[CD Lee]

Good point from Buddy. I would go so far as to say, that without the internal mechanics, it is not even a good punch.

However, that said, I agree it is a very devestating punch. If you were doing a right hand fist, this would describe it. It is also done differently in some schools footwork wise, but basically...

While stepping with the right foot, you punch straight out, slightly up or down with your right hand while turning your body and sinking your weight while also driving from the back leg. Key things? Elbow stays tucked in toward the center of your body, your wrist is aligned to not damage your wrist, your shoulders stay down, your spine lifts. Just to give a basic description.

[Ray Pina]

They key, for those who don't understand internal connections, is the elbow. The elbow is driven out powered by the shoulder, back but all really fueled by the back driving leg.

The connection between your elbow and shoulder is important. This is very strong and can not collapse. So the fist is hitting, but put your intention in the elbow.

Of course, if you view this as only a punch you are missing the point. Wood was used for the large pillars in Chinese halls (not stone), so the wood is associated with space. The elbow powers the strike but also opens up the space (if striking from the inside) or covers and collapses if striking from the outside.

A lot of people confuse the elements, thinking things like water beats fire, ect. Not true. I use fire all the time and it boild and completely gets rid of the water. Then again, I use water to put out the camp fire..... these are only ideas, its how they are used and who is using them.

[doug maverick]

what makes so powerful is it's uprooting affect. when you strike with beng chuan you must push down with the punch, causeing an uprooting affect even without the internal mechannics(witch should have already from pi chuan) it'll still cause your opponent to drop!!

[Buddy]

Hmmm. IMO fist and elbow combine, creating a structure (a battering ram?), driven by the waist, connected to the ground.

[8gua]

elbow expresses the energy of the hips and waist, shoulder should be kept out of the equation as much as possible.

[CD Lee]

Evolution Fist - I like your statement about the 'intention' in your elbow not to collapse. Similar to the intention I have but not the same. Mine is not in the elbow, but my intention of expansion causes the same effect there, NO collapsing of the structure! I also agree that thinking of a punch is bad. I used to think this way and it causes real problems. Like Buddy, said, it is an integrated movement that has a fist.

I think of the wood punch as truly not a punch but a fist, delivered by the body. Almost like a wood post strapped to a car and letting off the brakes for a second to ram it into something. Just an idea to get the chambered 'punching' idea out of the movement.

Also, the downward force does indeed uproot the opponent. This is personally my favorite method to uproot. I call it downrooting, but I made that up. Pressure slightly down on a person at their centers, will take their center and root just as easily as going up. Very cool stuff.

The shoulder should stay out of the equasion, but it definately can screw up all your power if you lift it or hunch it even a small amount. That shoulder must sink to center with the elbow and stay solidly down on your torso.

Good thread.


How high up would you guys say the limit is or practical limit for a wood punch that is rising or making contact higher than normal?

[Ray Pina]

This is a good thread.

I'm realising we all have our own way of describing what we have internalized. I agree, that the shoulder should not come out of its set position.

Just for me, when I'm executing something, I think two things simultanously:

1) drive off the back leg hard

2) make sure that battering ram is solid, and for me its establishing the connection associated with the elbow and the upper back (shoulder)...... Of course that region around the upper ribs should be crunching down with the exhale to increase the mass/drive.


I view the waist differently. The waist has no power associated with it (has the least muscle) but is merely a conducter. It can not generate real stopping power on its own. It all comes from the foot and its the rest of the body's job to maintain a solid structure so everything arrives as one.

[Midnight]

This is an excellent thread!

I'm not sure what types of toys everyone had in their childhood. But I had one, that when I think back to it....provides perfect demonstration of the proper mechanics in a punch. Or at least, what they should be.


It was an old He-Man toy, from the cartoon 'He-Man' (go figure).

Anyway, this toy aside from having arms and legs you could move into position, had a waist section which was actually hollow. And inside was an elastic band which held the top and bottom halves together. The purpose of this was, you could position his arm into a punching position, hold his feet to the ground with one hand, pull back on the top half of his body and let go. With the feet rooted to the ground from the hand of the child holding the toy, the top half would spring out, due to the tension put on the elastic band.

The feet did not move, the shoulder did not move. All that moved was the waist.

This is a rather unorthodox way of explaining the mechanics to a proper punch....but oddly effective if you can picture it.

[Ray Pina]

I had that same toy!:)

Now, my opinion is only based my level and maybe I'm wrong but I'll give it anyway.

That He Man toy as you pointed out had an elastic in it. Disect the human waist .... very little in there to generate any power on its own.

If you stand with your feet a part like that and turn ONLY your waist all the way to the right and hold out your arm and swing back to the left you have a force of course (the mere wait of your arm plus the velocity (which is half the formula) but it lacks the mass of the entire body (the second part of the formula).

I believe when skill is present the rest is not visible and you see the twisting of the waist, but that's seeing the smoke from a mile away but not the camp fire, the source of the smoke.... again, this is only my opinion.

Look at the anatomy of the waist ... nothing there. A rubber band needs you to stretch it for it to exert any force. Likewise the waist needs someone to enable it.

You see this in baseball batting. Everyone sees the waist turning, but the legs are huge, as well as the mechanics of the upper back, using a wood chopping motion aplied latterally... the waist connects the two, the lower and the upper.

[Midnight]

I agree with ya Evo.

The referrence I made was in hopes that people would understand that we all wouldn't just spring back and forth with effort. I don't think any of us have an elastic band in their waist :)

My referrence was made so that by watching this toy move like that in your mind, or if you actually had the toy...it was demonstration force emitting from the waist and not shoulder. Granted there is more to it, like hip movement too, which will also aid in the force of the strike, however the toy cant do that :P

I just wanted people to understand that the power should come not from the shoulder, but from the mid-section of the body.

[CD Lee]

I think the turning of the waist and hips, which actually in my case, causes the strike to go out rather than a chambering, is just one more coordinated component of the whole. The whole mass is moving or should move in coordination.

The legs are the main force of the blow, driving your entire mass. However, just as in the shifting excercise Buddy was describing, adding the turning of the body multiplies the force of the mass that is already moving. Each element of the movement, the spine lifting, the elbows sinking, the shoulders rounding, the legs driving...each add one more component of potential power. Our goal should be to keep adding a small percentage of improvement to our movements, so that we improve a little each day/week/month...etc.

[Ray Pina]

Well said.

[Buddy]

Sorry, no. There is tremendous power in the waist. I could show you readily. I can issue power w/o using my hips or stepping. Basically there are two types of power, horizontal and vertical. Horizontal (waist) power is a whiplash like effect. Vertical is a stretch and rebound effect. The rubber band effect you mention can be accessed when you can stretch internally. It's quite profound.

[shen_lung_yi]

If I may put in my two cents. :) If one looks at the structure of any of the elemental fists properly you will need to look at each of the joints and waist as springs. When each spring is properly loaded and all of them fire off at the precise time as one is stepping, striking, et al, you will gain optimum power. :D

It is up to each practitioner to be able to get your body to work as one total unit, but the springs are the key. This is known as son ton ging, loose springy energy.

I like to use the forms to train this as well as using a single solitary strike on a heavy bag the results are truly amazing when everything is in sync.

Of course all of the above is merely my own experience and opinion.

[Buddy]

Ian?
I looked at your clips. You realize quan is not pronounced kwan? It's something like chuen depending on where you learned it. Where did you learn your Xingyi? It isn't specific on your site.
Buddy

[Felipe Bido]

I'm very interested to know where your Xingyi comes from, too. Just curious

[shen_lung_yi]

I learned Xing yi from Shane Kutow who was a student of Peter Kwok. (kwok wong i) he was a student of Giang yung chien from
Wang xiang zhai
from kuo yun shen
supposedly from Li neng ran


I am always open to any suggestions.

There are some Xing yi aspects that I would like to learn but the lineage I have does not teach them. The Xing yi was not complete so to speak. ANyone know of someone near the Pennsylvania area that could help me refine my XIng yi a bit more?

[Ray Pina]

"There is tremendous power in the waist. I could show you readily. I can issue power w/o using my hips or stepping"

I think you may just have skill and have made the movements smaller, the power has to be coming from somewhere.

If you extend your arm and JUST USE THE WAIST, I can take that punch .... at the very least you should be adding bear into it, no? Perhaps Bear and Eagle.

That still says nothing for the foot. Waist alone, I can afford that strike.

[Midnight]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
If you extend your arm and JUST USE THE WAIST, I can take that punch ....

I've witnessed people turn 300lb punching bags into pendulums, with a simple palm strike from the waist. not little swaying either, I'm talking the bag nearly reached the ceiling it was bolted to, and began to sway like crazy.
I'm unsure if you're seeing the full scope of what we're saying when we're promoting proper waist mechanics.

I will not deny that more power can be added by stepping in, and adding hip pivoting. But waist alone can easily account for 70% of the power in any punch where its used.

[Ray Pina]

"waist alone can easily account for 70% of the power in any punch where its used."

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.




"I'm talking the bag nearly reached the ceiling"

I would also suggest that this is not the desired result. One wants to the bag to bend/Fold over, or jump.

[Midnight]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.

Thats fine, differences in opinion are what make forums flourish. =) And I'm a lover of debates.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I would also suggest that this is not the desired result. One wants to the bag to bend/Fold over, or jump.

...ok

Well If I hit something straight on, not welded into place...the laws of physics will move the object away from me. Regardless of the desired effect. So unless I hit it from underneath, I don't forsee it 'jumping' at all.

Bend/fold, is more possible...I guess. Understand tho, that this person hit a 300lb sac of material. Not a 300lb human being filled with nerves. A person will fold when hit properly based on pain. A punching bag doesnt react the same way.

[Ray Pina]

Watch what happens when a skilled boxer hits a similiar bag .... it does not sway and almost hit the ceiling.

Of course it goes back a bit, but it springs up and molds around the fist

[Midnight]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Watch what happens when a skilled boxer hits a similiar bag .... it does not sway and almost hit the ceiling.

Of course it goes back a bit, but it springs up and molds around the fist

Ah an example :) I like examples

I see where you're getting your comparison from now. Makes sense to me. But how about if I told you that the only reason why the punching bag appears to do that with a boxer is because he's punching at a higher location on the bag?

Technically the bag would be knocked backwards, much like I described. The reason it isn't for the boxer is cause he's not standing in a horse stance, so he's punching higher up on the bag, closer to the point its bolted to.

Actually you might see the comparison better if I gave the example on stand-up punching bag on the floor. If I were to do my waist attack, chances are it would fold in the center...cause I'm striking it closer to its pivot point. Where as the boxer, who'd be striking closer to the top of the bag, could potentionally push it right on its side.

[Ray Pina]

The same is true no matter where the bag is striked.... I do it better with kicking though.

I can kick the bag (below its center, actually lower 3rd) in such a way where it swings and arcs and looks very powerful .... even to an untrained eye.

Than I can explode into the bag at the same location and the bag reacts diffently .... it doesn't swing away like a strong push, the energy does something different, making the bag fold a bit and almost bounce .... this is also visible to the untrained eye.

I've gotten away from hitting the heavy bag though, my master's master (Grand Master Wong: http://www.chan-internal-martial-arts.com/imperialpalacebagua) made fun of him when he saw his 300lbs bag .... actually insulted him by hanging his jacket on it -- understand what that means?

Anyway, a light bag teaches one to chase its target. For example, when you kick someone they react and try to run the leg .... a 300lbs bag doesn't teach you that, but a very light bag does.... and again, not looking to push it, but chase it and explode it.

This of course is simply the way I train, and I know there are many different ways and aproaches .... just want to illustrate the differences and most importantly the "why" associated with the aproach.

[CD Lee]

Guys, I happen to be a big boxing fan. I have see the big boys stike big bags in training, including George Foreman (on tape of course).

The heavyweight punchers I have seen almost always have thier partner tightly holding the heavy bag during striking, so it does not swing away. I can assure you, a good boxer can definately stike the bag and make it sway back quite a bit.

I have my heavy bag set very high up so I can strike the very bottom of the bag where it gets piled up and hard. I do it because if I strike it high up, it does fold inwards due to the pivot angle. I don't really like that, plus is puts a lot of stress on my ceiling joint. The same strike at the bottom does seem to affect the bag swing a lot on my bag.

One other thing. When I use a wood punch, there is an internal 'sinking' that occurs just immediately after I have made contact with the bag, almost like dropping my structure after making entry. This movement definately causes the bag to explode away. It is like a fajin not an anjin. When I strike a person, I want that punch to do two things. I want it to penetrate and damage them of course. But the other thing I am after is directing and controlling their center. The sinking motion I am talking about downroots them to a great degree, and thus also controls that person, usually taking them to the ground, even on a softer strike.