Creatine, caffeine and bears, oh my!

[Toby]

I've been toying with the idea of creatine for a while now. I hear that caffeine inhibits uptake, but I got a coffee machine for Christmas and I'm an addict now. I usually have 1-2 super-strong cups a day. Anyone have any links or advice? I don't wanna waste my $$ on creatine if I'm not absorbing any of it.

While I'm at it, I'm also contemplating a ketogenic diet. Mostly liquid-based so I'm missing out on creatine from the red meat side of things. I don't wanna take any carbs during the week, but after a couple of weeks of pure ketosis I would go on a CKD (like Bodyopus IIRC, or whatever one Christian Thibaudeau went on in that T-mag article a few months back) where you heavily load carbs for 2 days a week so that would help with creatine uptake. Anyone have any links or advice re no carbs during the week and creatine uptake?

Lastly, I got some of this (http://www.myopure.com.au/whey-protein-concentrate.html) and this (http://www.myopure.com.au/calcium-caseinate.html) yesterday as an experiment before I decide if I want to get their 20kg bags. Not bad, not bad at all. I took 40g of protein in a milkshake with chocolate topping last night, 2min before bed. That was probably a mistake. Took a while to get to sleep. I could feel the CC in my stomach sitting there. I had about 20g (10g WPC, 10g CC) this morning in water, no flavouring. Not bad. It didn't taste awful and didn't look anywhere near as bad as the bulk egg white I usually get. Also, when the egg white defrosts, you're supposed to "eat" it fairly quickly. The carton says "use ASAP" or something similar. The powder OTOH, says I've got 18mths or so to eat it.

[IronFist]

I recommend a keto diet if you like feeling like ****. Do you like being fatigued and not wanting to participate in anything mentally or physically? At least that's what I hear happens.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I don't know if this is for everyone, but:


Creatine makes me **** out my ass...
hot, firey, hell-****. I'm not a fan of creatine. I just use Whey now.

[Ka]

Toby
Where you thinking of using the creatine M for mass or anaerobic power increase?
Coffee being a dueritic and creatine also sucking in water probally best not to take within a couple of hours of each other.
Then again 2 cups isn't that much and the stimulatory benefits of coffee are ideal for your sort of training.
I don't think combing CM loading and the first weeks of a Keto diet would be wise,as the body is doing a lot of adjusting.Plus when loading its recommended you mix CM with glucose.
Personally I would put CM use on the bottom of that list of changes,form the price to the benefit point of view,but depends what you want out of it.

[Toby]

Originally posted by IronFist
I recommend a keto diet if you like feeling like ****. Do you like being fatigued and not wanting to participate in anything mentally or physically?Yes. Yes, I do :p. Mmm. I'd better try ketosis for a couple of days first, maybe. Before I commit to 88lb of protein :D.


Originally posted by CaptainPickAxe
Creatine makes me **** out my ass...
hot, firey, hell-****. I'm not a fan of creatine.OK. That's one for the negative. Actually, I can't tell from your post CPA. Did you want me to put down "Yes" or "No" for creatine? :p


Ka,
I wanted to use creatine for my PTP workouts. IMHO it seems like the ideal supplement for my type of workout. Short sets that only tax ATP supplies. I'm not (or shouldn't be) going into muscle glycogen stores at all with PTP. I've wanted to play with creatine for a while for messing around with plateau-breaking. Also for quicker recovery. On top of PTP I do MA class twice a week, MA practice most nights and forearm and abdominal exercise 3 times a week. Oh, yeah, and HIIT twice a week. But the creatine would be for the weights. Not like my local bike shop where they sell bulk creatine for road racers :rolleyes:.

The "couple of hours" that you mentioned is what interests me. This is the type of thing I want to know. E.g. if I take creatine one day, how long till I can have coffee? If it's a day, that sucks. If it's a few hours, then I can take my morning coffee after a weight session then start on the creatine mid-morning. Thing is, I put a fair bit of coffee in the espresso machine then put about 3-4 espressos worth in my cup. So they're not an average coffee. I also like strong blends, so that doesn't help.

OK, I might hold off on the creatine for a bit. One more thing - I wouldn't load it. I'd just go straight on a maintenance dosage, 5g a day-ish.

[Ka]

Originally posted by Toby
I wanted to use creatine for my PTP workouts. IMHO it seems like the ideal supplement for my type of workout. Short sets that only tax ATP supplies.I've wanted to play with creatine for a while for messing around with plateau-breaking. Also for quicker recovery.
Agreed it would be the ideal supplement,I was thinking of the impact of the change in diet as well as the CM intake.


Originally posted by Toby

Not like my local bike shop where they sell bulk creatine for road racers :rolleyes:.
You've got to love the desire to market and make money don't ya!


Originally posted by Toby
The "couple of hours" that you mentioned is what interests me. This is the type of thing I want to know. E.g. if I take creatine one day, how long till I can have coffee? If it's a day, that sucks. If it's a few hours, then I can take my morning coffee after a weight session then start on the creatine mid-morning.
I think its about water intake particularly if you have a HIIT session.Give it a couple of hours between CM and caffeine to allow for better absorption,time for the body to do its thing.

Originally posted by Toby Thing is, I put a fair bit of coffee in the espresso machine then put about 3-4 espressos worth in my cup. So they're not an average coffee. I also like strong blends, so that doesn't help.
Wooh so we are talking a lot of caffeine here!!

Don't think there's anything you don't know already but I'll post it anyway.
http://www.ais.org.au/nutrition/SFScreatine.htm
http://t-mag.com/html/10creat.html
This guy says its all about hydration.
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/caffeine.htm
Q: I heard that creatine and caffeine can be consumed at the same time. But an article I read claims caffeine inhibits the absorption of creatine into muscle tissue. Which is true?

A: There was a controversial research study published in 1996 in the Journal of Applied Physiology about creatine and caffeine; however, if you study that article closely, you'll find that caffeine had no effect on creatine uptake into muscle. A more recent study by Vanakoski, et al. in 1998 investigated the pharmacokinetics of caffeine and creatine, both alone and in combination. They reported when creatine was used alone or even in combination with caffeine that, "creatine was rapidly and efficiently absorbed, as reflected by plasma concentrations." Because researchers concluded that creatine was efficiently absorbed even when combined with caffeine, it does not appear from the results of this study that caffeine exerts a negative effect on the uptake of creatine into muscle tissue.
More research
http://www.urquharts.co.uk/cdl/researchproposal/protocol.htm
See what you think

[Toby]

Thanks Ka. Mostly stuff I knew but a good refresher. Especially the caffeine stuff, which I hadn't looked into. You're helping me come to the conclusion that I was already headed towards, which was ketosis is my primary interest, creatine secondary. Basically I wanted to try creatine to offset some of the negative effects on my training brought about by ketosis. Then later, once I stabilise my weight again, continue to cycle creatine at times to help with what I do. I find that PTP, HIIT and MA drills are all ideal in theory for creatine supplementation. Short bouts of high intensity exercise interspersed with low intensity. Rinse, repeat.

Re diet, I'm ready for a metabolism shakeup when I do pure ketosis for a couple of weeks. But then I want to go to a CKD for however long I feel like it (months?) afterwards and that's when I want to stabilise things a bit and add CM. If I continue to lose strength rapidly (like I know I will on pure ketosis) while doing a CKD, I may persuade myself to stop "dieting". One more thing - another reason I was considering creatine was I wanted my protein intake to be mostly powder, so I may be neglecting my red meat intake a bit.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Toby
Yes. Yes, I do :p. Mmm. I'd better try ketosis for a couple of days first, maybe. Before I commit to 88lb of protein :D.

Doesn't it take a few days to even get into ketosis?


Ka,
I wanted to use creatine for my PTP workouts. IMHO it seems like the ideal supplement for my type of workout. Short sets that only tax ATP supplies.

I might be wrong but I would assume the opposite. Wouldn't Creatine be more effective for a 8-12 rep program?


Not like my local bike shop where they sell bulk creatine for road racers :rolleyes:.

Eh? What's that all about?


E.g. if I take creatine one day, how long till I can have coffee?

Dude, aren't you going to be taking creatine every day?

[Toby]

Originally posted by IronFist
Doesn't it take a few days to even get into ketosis?It's been a while since I read my excellent book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0967145600/qid=1086315989/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-5035777-0867837?v=glance&s=books), but I think I recall that ketosis sets in within several hours, like within a day. Body adaptation to ketosis takes a few days i.e. before you start using ketones for fuel as opposed to muscle and liver glycogen. Adaptation continues and after 1 or 2 weeks you are deriving most of your energy from ketones. It depends on how many carbs you take in - the less, the quicker the onset of ketosis.


Originally posted by IronFist
I might be wrong but I would assume the opposite. Wouldn't Creatine be more effective for a 8-12 rep program?Quick google search reveals this (http://www.indoorclimbing.com/muscles.html), which is basically what I've read elsewhere. PTP uses (from that link) the "strength enzyme system", so you get a CM + ADP -> ATP type reaction. 8-12 reps will be more the "burst power enzyme system" where glycogen -> ATP. So creatine is used in both (the 2nd one is sort of the 1st + the glyc -> ATP reaction), but is especially important to the "strength enzyme system". Make sense?


Originally posted by IronFist
Eh? What's that all about?I ride my bike everyday and I'm in the local bike shop regularly. They've got a stack of supplements, including a few dozen 1kg tubs of expensive creatine. I asked one of the guys down there if he uses it and he said yeah, most of the guys there, MTB or road, use it.


Originally posted by IronFist
Dude, aren't you going to be taking creatine every day? Well yeah. What I meant was does it take a day before caffeine won't significantly alter creatine uptake. Anyway, interesting point - I've read a few times that taking creatine everyday is unnecessary if you aren't working out that day. It stays in the system for 48hrs, so if you're not working out over the weekend, you might skip a day or two. You then take it when you need it. It's absorbed quickly and used equally quickly so no point wasting it. But yeah, I'd take it every day probably since I'm doing something fitness-wise every day.

[IronFist]

^ ok you're right.

You know not to load, right?

[Toby]

Originally posted by Toby
... I wouldn't load it. I'd just go straight on a maintenance dosage, 5g a day-ish.

[IronFist]

Oops, I must have missed that part.