ATTN: Ironfist

[red5angel]

and anyone else who can help:

I want to put on some muscle mass quickly. I'm losing weight, burning fat (on a plateau at the moment, see other thread). I don't have a membership to the club and don't have a whole lot of fancy equipment. I have a barbell, dumbells, a limited wight machine (I can do press downs, machine flyes, rows and some leg stuff on it.) and enough weight for any body part I can work out.

I have 45 minutes to an hour a night to workout in, I do cardio in the mornings at the moment.

I need suggestions on a training schedule that will help me put on mass quickly. I have plenty of experience weight training, I did serious lifting for a while in my early 20's and my diet is good now so I mostly just need exercises and schedule ideas. any help would be great.

I'm searching this forum and a few other sources but thought I'd try to get a specific thread going so I could focus all the knowledge that comes in.

[Toby]

Hey, I'm no Ironfist, but I'll try.

Here's what I'd do - Pavel's bear routine. One set of 5 reps of an exercise. Then another set of 5 reps of the same, with 90% of the first weight. Then many sets of 5 reps of the same with 80% of the first weight. I'd do a handful of exercises, like bench, squat, deadlift, pullups (or maybe the Olympics if I could). I'd do e.g. Monday bench the bear workout plus throw in a couple of light sets of the other exercises. Wednesday squats the bear workout plus throw in a couple of light sets of the others, etc.

The other thing I'd do is look at my diet. To put on mass you need to have a calorific surplus. You'll put on fat while you put on mass. It's almost impossible to put on muscle mass and lose fat at the same time unless you're untrained to start with. I'd be eating lots of carbs in the mornings and lunch and mixing it up. Lots of coloured veggies plus moderate amounts of rice and potato high GI type stuff. Lots of milk, etc. Plus, lots and lots of protein.

P.S. take all I say with a grain of salt. I've never been a bodybuilder so my opinions are mostly what I've read.

Hope that helps.

[Toby]

Oh, I forgot - IIRC 7* was into bodybuilding for a while. Maybe PM him to get him to reply to this thread.

[KombatKid]

You have more than enough time and equipment for a great workout. You must eat A LOT to gain weight. Make sure to it is lots of good food and don't waste your time with supplements.

Do this routine three times a week and you will put on mass.

Squats- full range with as much weight as you can handle for 1 set of fifty reps. You must do 50 reps straight, no breaks although you can pause at the top, just dont take the weight off your back
After your 20 minute "rest" from the squats(i.e. on the floor unable to move), do the following:
Pushups, as many as you can
Barbell Curl-1 set of 10 reps
One arm Dumbbell Press-10 reps with each arm
One arm Dumbbell row-10 reps each arm
Bridging or headstands for neck work
Situps-as many as you can
Do lots of stretching in the between days

I used this routine back in college to put go from 170 pounds to 215 in 4 years.


-Kid

[red5angel]

Toby, on the bear thing - do you rest at all between each set of 5?

Thanks for the input so far guys.

Kombatkid, you put on mass doing that routine? It seems a little sparse, atleast compared to what I used to know. Recently I've been reading that some body builders are working each muscle group once a week, and are finding that it works great for building mass. I just assumed that this is probably do to supplements as well, something I'm not interested in getting into. Your workout is full body all in one night?

I have two problems - trying to burn fat at the same time. I think if I eat "clean" - veggies, fruits, protien, no junk food, I might be ok. The second issue is that I already have some mass. I'm 5'10" and I go about 200lbs at the moment. I'm about 15% body fat I would guess, I need to drop about 20 pounds to be around my ideal weight considering my build.

[Toby]

Bear is:

1) 4-6 reps per set to allow for heavy weights.
2) 10-20 sets.
3) don't go to failure.

Once you're into the 80% sets, rest 30-90s between sets. Once you can't do 80%x5 reps with good form, finish the exercise. Might be 5 or 20 sets, but push yourself. Usual Pavel theory applies regarding increasing weight - try 5lb a workout for a specific exercise.

That's all paraphrasing the short section in PTP. IIRC, German Volume Training uses a similar methodology to this. Maybe some Westside stuff does too, but I'm not knowledgable about their training methods. It sounds familiar, though. Ford will know. Maybe he'll chime in. Oh, yeah, some people swear by 20 rep squat programs for big thighs. Dunno how many sets. I can imagine it'd hurt later. I think Iron tried this for a while?

[red5angel]

ok, so just to make sure I'm with you Toby -

Let's say I'm doing curls with a bar. I'm curling say 100lbs for the first set. I do 5 reps, rest 30-90 seconds. On my next set I do 90lbs, 5 reps, rest 30-90 seconds, third set, I do 80lbs at 5 reps?


Once you're into the 80% sets, rest 30-90s between sets. Once you can't do 80%x5 reps with good form, finish the exercise. Might be 5 or 20 sets, but push yourself.


you've lost me here. In your first post you mention doing 3 sets of 5 reps, at 100%, 90% and 80%. Where do the rest of the sets come in?

[Arhat of Fury]

Work one big muscle a day or 2 small. 10-12 sets on that muscle, start at 12 reps and work your way down to 6-8,45sec-1:15 rest between each set and try to split your compound movements evenly with the machines/cutting excercises. Eat like a cow(nutrient rich food) all day but dont eat past 7PM(or at leat 3 hours before bedtime)

thats How i put mass on

Good luck

[red5angel]

Another thing I'd like to hear is how frequently you guys work out each muscle group. I've heard everything across the board. Some guys working out twice a day and getting each muscle group in like 3 times a week, to guys who do it once a week.

[IronFist]

Sorry I haven't been on much recently as my cable modem at home got fried by lightning.


Originally posted by KombatKid
Squats- full range with as much weight as you can handle for 1 set of fifty reps. You must do 50 reps straight, no breaks although you can pause at the top, just dont take the weight off your back

Dude, um, no. By the time you get to a weight that you can do 50 reps with it's not going to be heavy enough to gain any size off of. In other words, 50 reps is way too many for the "building size" range.



Pushups, as many as you can

Won't build size if you can do more than 12 or 14. Sorry.


Barbell Curl-1 set of 10 reps

No one will grow from one set of 10.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Arhat of Fury
Eat like a cow(nutrient rich food) all day but dont eat past 7PM(or at leat 3 hours before bedtime)


I always have a meal about an hour before I go to bed. But that's just my ectomorphic self. Your results may vary.

[red5angel]

my ex used to get up in the middle of the night to eat some chicken so her body wouldn't break down muscle. Of course she was russian, and a little crazy :)

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Toby
German Volume Training uses a similar methodology to this. [i]Maybe some Westside stuff does too, but I'm not knowledgable about their training methods.

I tried GVT but I didn't like it. Too light of weights. I mean think about it: you're using a weight that is light enough that you can do 10 sets of 10 with. That's not going to be a heavy weight.


It sounds familiar, though. Ford will know. Maybe he'll chime in. Oh, yeah, some people swear by 20 rep squat programs for big thighs. Dunno how many sets. I can imagine it'd hurt later. I think Iron tried this for a while?

I only got through 3 workouts of the 20 rep squat program because it gave me unbearable headaches during the set. I have no idea why, tho. I never get headaches ever. It was weird. I can do sets of 12 just fine, but somewhere around 14-15 I'd get this terrible pressure in the back of my head. I wasn't tensing, and I wasn't pressing the bar into my head or anything, so I have no idea what was up with that. Anyway, I have no real experience with this program, but people say it works. It probably works, tho, because the "official" program calls for drinking a gallon of milk a day in addition to everything else. That will add a lot of size by itself.

[IronFist]

Anyway, if you want to put on size you have to meet a couple factors:

1. Your weights have to be heavy enough to stimulate growth. In other words, if you can do a ton of reps with something you're not going to grow. Shoot for 8-12 reps.

2. Your workout has to be intense. This means short breaks between sets. No resting 5 minutes. Try to rest like a minute.

3. You have to eat enough.

The Bear is probably not the ideal program for size. It will get you pretty strong, but I would say there are better ways to go about putting on size. While not the best mix with martial arts because it generally leaves you sore, training to failure (8-12RM) is generally a good way to add size (but don't do it on every set).

[red5angel]

I only got through 3 workouts of the 20 rep squat program because it gave me unbearable headaches during the set.

I know what that is, it's blood pressure being squeezed up from your legs. I used to get it when I started some deep stance training in the martial arts. I'd get this piercing pain in the back of my head, almost where my spine meets my skull. Eventually it starts to go away, I think it's just a matter of conditioning.

[Arhat of Fury]

I always have a meal about an hour before I go to bed. But that's just my ectomorphic self. Your results may vary.

I hear you, results may vary but I reccomended that because he is just coming off losing weight which means he is not ectomorph and I have found that eating in that fashion helps the stomach muscle stay away:) More of a way to try and stay lean while gaining mass. If your going for straight bulk, definately eat before you go to bed.

.02

Arhat

[Toby]

Originally posted by red5angel
ok, so just to make sure I'm with you Toby -

Let's say I'm doing curls with a bar. I'm curling say 100lbs for the first set. I do 5 reps, rest 30-90 seconds. On my next set I do 90lbs, 5 reps, rest 30-90 seconds, third set, I do 80lbs at 5 reps?Yep, plus 4th, 5th, and so on sets.


Originally posted by red5angel
you've lost me here. In your first post you mention doing 3 sets of 5 reps, at 100%, 90% and 80%. Where do the rest of the sets come in?
Originally posted by Toby
One set of 5 reps of an exercise. Then another set of 5 reps of the same, with 90% of the first weight. Then many sets of 5 reps of the same with 80% of the first weight.

OK. I misunderstood GVT. I thought it was multiple 3 rep sets, not 10x10 although now Iron says it I remember that's what it is. I also thought Westside did multiple 3 rep sets. Here's a tiny bit of info (http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/ls28.htm). Bear in mind that they're about strength not size though. Although you won't find a weedy guy there :D. Also, my Olympic book (http://www6.mailordercentral.com/ironmind/prodinfo.asp?number=1203&variation=&aitem=25&mitem=47) does multiple 5 rep sets, multiple exercises for each program. Working down to doubles and singles when you lift heavier. But Olympic lifting is also not about size.

BTW, I know it was an example, but I wouldn't be barbell curling. Try weighted pullups or chinups instead. Or maybe some rows. Think compound exercises - side benefit is more HGH production IIRC.

[IronFist]

^ Bear in mind also that Westside won't even let you join their gym unless you're already an elite lifter. So their methods aren't necessarily going to make you as strong as their lifters.

[Toby]

I know, but it doesn't hurt them. They're not exactly going downhill. I figure you could extrapolate a training program from theirs. Of course, you'd have to reduce the workload a bit unless you wanted to juice up.