What is internal...I've got it....

[Fu-Pow]

If you read my other post on Peng Jin and Weightlifting then you'll know where I'm coming from.....

Internal Martial Arts=

Whole Body, Deep Muscle, Tonic Lengthening





:D

[Ray Pina]

You forgot something .... mind/chi

[foolinthedeck]

forget mind find all

[QuaiJohnCain]

Your basic question is, "can I develop and maintain Peng Jin and Chan Su Jin by lifting weights?"

No. You will develop good weightlifting form, but that's all. Stop being a lazy westerner and get back to your Zhang Zhuang and Tui Shou.

[red5angel]

No. You will develop good weightlifting form


you mean you won't develop strength? Or muscular endurance? that good form doesn't translate to good internal control?

[Walter Joyce]

Fast answers to complex questions are usually wrong.

This one doesn't seem to break that rule.

:cool:

[CD Lee]

redangel5 said:


you mean you won't develop strength? Or muscular endurance? that good form doesn't translate to good internal control?


RedAngel5 - Dude...one word on this as in my other thread...SPECIFICTY. Check that out. Get back to me...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

We train with weights every day.. we lift, we open, we move about.. the issue is balance, to find the place where we maximize "useful" strength with useful flexibility.. Personally, i never train with weights greater than my own body weight.. my mentor says control your own weight and you can control anyone's weight..

it is as ludicrous to suggest no weight training as it is to suggest that we look like Mr. Universe.. to suggest that we all become frail monks is to deny the obvious, that there is a real benefit to useful strength.. any repetitive activity that requires some level of strength is, essentially, weight training.. that may be work, Taiji, play, etc.. Taiji trains weights by repetitive movements using the body's weight on the legs.. Taiji swordplay is another form of weight training.. and so on, and so on.. but, training weights in order to "look" like some contrived notion of masculinity is likely counterproductive to Taiji.. it has always been my philosophy to build internal AND external strength in a fluid balance.. and to maintain a not obvious appearance of potential.. ie: loose clothes, no displays of strength or capability outside the school, relaxed musclature, etc.. blend in with the crowd, don't attract attention .. basically, don't invite challenge.. i know a diminutive gentleman that when we were working at the school and he had his shirt off, he looked kind of out of shape.. until he began climbing the scaffold, then.. suddenly he rippled with strength, his slight body expanded to reveal a nicely fit and well maintained physique.. i was impressed.. he reminded me of how easy it is to "walk softly and carry a big stick" (Yin AND Yang)..

Be well..

[Repulsive Monkey]

Fu Pow's initial equation is not just a bit under nourished but wholly anorexic. Qi and intent closely mixing with qi is a prime labelfor internal arts.

[8gua]

"it has always been my philosophy to build internal AND external strength in a fluid balance"

assuming such a dichotomy exists, how does one unify the body?......there is only one strength, there is only one body, it is a question of degree of integration and origin of intent.....to be soft does not mean to be weak....you do not do your soft practice and then your hard...this is too dualistic.

[red5angel]

RedAngel5 - Dude...one word on this as in my other thread...SPECIFICTY. Check that out. Get back to me...

LOL! Dude, READING COMPREHENSION check it out, get back to me.


tiachibob has it correct. In the East, all things in moderation....

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings


you do not do your soft practice and then your hard...this is too dualistic.
LOL, clearly, you understand the concept.. it is based on intention.. in practice, the training is neither soft nor hard.. it is just training, intention determines its disposition.. the same muscles, alignment and energy can be utilized in either way, familiarity and intention will yield differing results.. if one's familiarity is with external methodologies and the training has been for strength and bulk, intention may not overcome familiarity..

As for Dualism, that is exactly what Taiji is.. it relies on the interplay of Yin and Yang.. without which Taiji would be pointless.. you are correct, though, i do not isolate my strength training by internal/external.. my focus is purely internal, realizing that a poorly maintained physique is less likely to express Taiji than one trained with Taiji in mind..

Be well

[Fu-Pow]

Hard WITHIN Soft. Not hard and soft.

When you become softer than soft then you find hard again.

Sounds mystical...right.

But what does it mean, we all have one body, a very similar body.

There is only one explanation for this hard within soft:

Deep Muscle Tonic Lengthening against an External Force.

When you practice the form it is against the force of gravity.

When you practice with a partner it is against their force.

But you can't start there. You have to learn how to yield first as not to activate your external musculature.

However, my Taji teacher CAN meet your force dead-on with his internal force and never activate his external muscles. He can hit you very hard using his internal structure.

But how?

If he was all soft then this would be impossible. But he's not all soft. He's simply soft on the outside and hard lengthened and unified on the inside.

Intent is important because you cannot feel these deep muscles and they are not under you direct voluntary control. If you try to contract them you will end up contracting your external musculature. So you have to be more subtle.

Qi is just a manifestation of the internal musculature doing work. You feel heat, tingling, sensations. But I don't think it's really Qi it's your internal muscles giving you feed back that they are doing work.

:D

[scotty1]

However, my Taji teacher CAN meet your force dead-on with his internal force and never activate his external muscles. He can hit you very hard using his internal structure.

Impossible and ridiculous at the same time!

If he's moving a limb, he's using his 'external' musculature.

If he's standing up, he's using his 'external' musculature.

Surely, 'musculature' referring to the muscles, is neither internal or external, it's just 'musculature.'

When he hits me with his 'internal structure', what is it that impacts upon me?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Intent is important because you cannot feel these deep muscles and they are not under you direct voluntary control. If you try to contract them you will end up contracting your external musculature. So you have to be more subtle.
Hmmm... my experience differs, through discipline one can indeed feel these "deep muscles".. more-over, one can exercise control over these muscles.. that is Taiji from the physical perspective..

The redundant Qi arguement is too ambiguous to get into here, but.. there is muscle work, there is proper alignment, and.. there is the intent and energy which animates these processes, examine the intent and the energy which moves the muscles for insights into the effect we refer to as "Qi"..

Be well..

[count]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
examine the intent and the energy which moves the muscles for insights into the effect we refer to as "Qi"..

Be well..
Just thought it was worth saying again. ;)

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by scotty1


Impossible and ridiculous at the same time!

If he's moving a limb, he's using his 'external' musculature.

If he's standing up, he's using his 'external' musculature.

Surely, 'musculature' referring to the muscles, is neither internal or external, it's just 'musculature.'

When he hits me with his 'internal structure', what is it that impacts upon me?

You're wrong on all accounts. I have experienced this first hand. For example, I push full out against his elbow and then he has me put hand on his shoulder. It's totally limp like his arm was just hanging from his side.

I already gave you the reason. You have external superficial muscles that are primarily "phasic" ie for creating motion. You also have deeper "tonic" muscles that are primarily for holding you up. When you can lengthen these tonic muscles (ie eccentric contraction) and create space between the joints. Then you create elastic/pneumatic potential within the body.

This can be harnessed to use for fighting.

[_William_]

Hello Fu-Pow,

There are still no two sets of muscles. A muscle that is acting as a stablizer in on action can be a prime mover in another. For example, the erector-spinae muscles that hold a person up when he's standing immediately switch to prime-mover action when he's doing good-mornings with a barbell.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Also I would much appreciate it if you would clarify what you meant by "When you can lengthen these tonic muscles (ie eccentric contraction) and create space between the joints. Then you create elastic/pneumatic potential within the body."

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by _William_
Hello Fu-Pow,

There are still no two sets of muscles. A muscle that is acting as a stablizer in on action can be a prime mover in another. For example, the erector-spinae muscles that hold a person up when he's standing immediately switch to prime-mover action when he's doing good-mornings with a barbell.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Also I would much appreciate it if you would clarify what you meant by "When you can lengthen these tonic muscles (ie eccentric contraction) and create space between the joints. Then you create elastic/pneumatic potential within the body."

William-

Good points. Muscles can act as both stabilizers and movers. However, let's just speak in terms of the muscles that are being used as stabilizers within the force of gravity. These are the "deep" muscles that I'm talking about.

As for the other part its a bit difficult to understand. But basically the way that I see it, is that when your deep stabilizers are supporting your structure they are eccentrically "contracted" meaning the muscles actually lengthens . When there is lengthening then the joints can open up and create space. This results in more joint mobility (ie chan si jin movement) and also a bounciness/springiness created by the space between the joints.

The way I think of it is that every joint in the body is being pulled slightly apart in all directions. It seem like this shouldn't be possible because we normally think of one muscle set contracting and its opposite lengthening. But when we can lengthen in all directions at once then we have "peng jin" or expansiveness/inflation. This is only possible because of eccentric contraction.

When your body is lengthened and inflated then you become very sensitive to any pressure applied to your structure, hence "ting jin" or listening energy. And furthermore if someone applies heavy pressure to the structure they are either going to "slide off" the structure because they are essentially pressing into 9 inflated spheres (ie the nine pearls or joints of the body) or they are going to be neutralized and bounced back because they applied pressure into the "springiness" of the structure and then get their own force returning to them.

Which strategy is used is dependent on the intent of the practitioner and the what the situation calls for.