Training Mechanics

[Midnight]

I made a recent post in the 'More Basics' thread. And decided to honor Buddy by taking my thought and starting my own thread.



What I stated was:

"Sure the mind is locked on body mechanics, but only until those body mechanics become an inate systematic response that the body can perform on its own, without thought. Once this is acheived I believe the mind should then focus on breathing. And just like body mechanics, it'll focus on it until it becomes second nature to breathe at the right times.

As soon as both are acheived, the mind may be released altogether, and you may react accurately, and without thought."



Allow me to expand on my reasoning for placing body mechanics and breathing mechanics in this particular order.

Perhaps it's just the Tai Chi in me speaking for all of my martial arts, but I'm a firm believer in timing. Inhaling as I contract, and exhaling as I expand. But timing during an attack gets deeper then matching the breathing with say...a punch. Timing gets more complex still, because one should also be rooting themselves accordingly before the strike.

So lets see what we have now, and in what order:

1. Foot placement (rooting)
2. Striking (we'll say a punch in this case), with breathing

One can not properly time their breathing (which should be based on body mechanics), unless you have proper body mechanics.

Lets say you chose to work on your breathing practice first. And you train, and train. And you get it to an artform you are absolutely confident in. You then chose to move over to body mechanics. But as you're doing body mechanics you find that you had incorrect footwork, or you weren't pivoting properly during your punch while you were practicing your breathing for all that time. Instead your once comfortable breathing, no longer keeps a proper flow with your new mechanics. For months you were used to breathing while you felt your right foot facing to the left during your punch, only to find your foot should really be facing forward.
Now, you pretty much have to retrain yourself in an aspect you had originally trained so diligently in.

In the end however, it's still a "To each their own" scenario. What works for some may not work for others. But this isn't MA class, this is a forum. Which brings me to my next question.

Views?

[Buddy]

I think Mike's post deserves a response if only to keep it going. I wonder about these posts. I haven't gone further on my own because of my perceived lack of interest. Here ( in my and Mike's post is a real opportunity for intelligent discourse and yet it is only yesterdays news.
I would appreciate others responding to this post.

[Josh Vogel]

Hi,

Good breathing seems like a very important part of any martial art. For me, I've not been taught to coordinate breathing with anything. Just to keep it natural, relaxed and continuous. It does seem to connect greatly to awareness, but in a sort of unconcious way. One of the tricks that one of my sparring partners taught me about using the breath is to strike when you see someone breathing in. I don't know about everyone, but I know that when I am breathing in, there is a point where it's more difficult to strike than when exhaling, so this would make it an opportune time to strike me. So in accordance with this idea, I focus alot on keeping my breathing hidden from my partners and to be aware of where their breathing is at. Hope that made sense, I'm sort of rushing around right now. Thanks,
Josh

[Midnight]

Thanks buddy, and I agree with what you say.



Originally posted by Josh Vogel
I focus alot on keeping my breathing hidden from my partners and to be aware of where their breathing is at.

Well in my experience in the internal arts, proper breathing is essential, and a very large part of the entire "internal" aspect to the art, hence the name.

But this particular comment you made concerned me slightly. During combat, very little should actually be going on through your mind. The harder your conscious mind works, the higher the chance of you not noticing a message sent to you by your subconscious becomes. And it is your subconscious you should be listening to while in any confrontation.

[count]

I agree with Josh on this point. A good fighter can pick up on your rhythm and timing and use it to their advantage. There are some good points you made, but breathing should and is natural until you begin to think about it.

As far as training the mechanics, at first just breath. Later, with training you also begin to cordinate it and to take control of otherwise involuntary muscles so that you can remain relaxed, maintain the necessary space, and apply the proper muscle tension and relaxation for issuing and receiving power. Try some good, old fashioned, hum, hah, heng, eya breathing. Get a feel for your core when your body expands. Isn't there a contraction of the dan tian when you exhale? Always? Sometimes? Never?

[Midnight]

Originally posted by count
I agree with Josh on this point. A good fighter can pick up on your rhythm and timing and use it to their advantage. There are some good points you made, but breathing should and is natural until you begin to think about it.

So what are you agree'ing to exactly? Martial arts is loaded with rhythm and timing. Are you going to go out of your way to lose your rhythm and timing? Because if that is the case, I can't help but think you'd lose.


Isn't there a contraction of the dan tian when you exhale? Always? Sometimes? Never?

No there isn't. Dan tian is located in the abdomen... liver. It has no expansion/contration during breathing, as it is not the lungs.

[count]

Originally posted by Midnight
So what are you agree'ing to exactly? Martial arts is loaded with rhythm and timing. Are you going to go out of your way to lose your rhythm and timing? Because if that is the case, I can't help but think you'd lose.
Am I going to go out of my way. No. Am I going to change my rhythm and timing? Absolutely. I'm agreeing that a good fighter can observe your patterns of breathing and take advantage. If this is true, how would changing be a disadvantage?



No there isn't. Dan tian is located in the abdomen... liver. It has no expansion/contration during breathing, as it is not the lungs.
Expanding the dan tien creates space for the lungs. Clearly, it's the muscles that expand and contract. There are times it's necessary for the muscles to contract even as the dan tien expands and vica versa. This ability comes from training the mechanics correctly.

[Midnight]

Originally posted by count
I'm agreeing that a good fighter can observe your patterns of breathing and take advantage. If this is true, how would changing be a disadvantage?

So if I stood infront of you breathing, would you constantly throw your guard up everytime I exhaled? What if I had no intention on attacking during that exhale?

If we're going to be discussing rhythm here, well I could take this so called "pattern of breathing" that I evidentally have. And change it up couldnt I? Perhaps I'll make two full breaths before I attack on my exhale, maybe three....maybe even four!

I still don't see how you plan to read my attacks based on my breathing to be perfectly honest. Do you think I'm going to throw one punch per exhale and then I'm going to stop? I think not. During the time it takes to exhale, I could toss a few punches at you, do you plan to know how many I'm sending your way? or where to block?
I guess I could inhale/exhale/inhale/exhale/inhale/exhale in a matter of 2 secs to execute 3 quick punches, but I'm not that nice.

[count]

Please, I thought you started your own thread to discuss training mechanics? Now you're already changing your own topic to something else.:rolleyes:

A good fighter always treats a faint like the real thing and immediately counters. :rolleyes:

[Midnight]

It's unfortunate this post has turned extremely one sided, but it's still a discussion, and I'm going to go with the discussion.

All I keep hearing from everyone on these forums is "A good fighter does this, a good fighter does that". Do you notice, that when I respond to you, I use myself as an example? I'm not interested in what some other guy is going to do, or how he's going to react, I'm interested in what you plan to do. You can tell me what a "good fighter" is going to do until you're blue in the face, but until you clarify just what a "good fighter" is. This discussion isn't going to resolve, because nobody is perfect, and sooner or later this so called "good fighter" is going to screw up.

As for your faint comment, I didn't mention a faint..at all!
I mentioned NOT attacking, as in standing there, I hardly consider that a faint.

[CD Lee]

I have been taught not to coordinate the breath with the strike at this point in time. The logic for this was given as "what if you want or need to strike while you are taking a breath?" I actually and purposefully have worked to expand and contract in both breathing in and out.

I find also, that I naturally tend to coordinate my breath with my strikes however. So I don't think this is so bad because I don't think about it. I have a background in non internals, so exhaling on a strike is just ingrained I guess.

Which brings me to this question:

What is the overiding reason that the breath needs to be coordinated in a strike?

[Buddy]

If you work on breathwork in your solo trainig there's no need concern yourself about when you are striking. Really do what works. I like doing breathing techniques but I try to learn them and then forget them.

[PLCrane]

Originally posted by CD Lee
What is the overiding reason that the breath needs to be coordinated in a strike?


The muscles of the abdomen and ribcage that are used for exhaling forcefully will create rigidity in the structure. When you strike an object, you need this rigidity, else your punch would be like trying to stab with a rope (or maybe like trying to chop a tree using an axe with a rope handle). If you tighten all the right muscles to deliver a force when you strike, you will automatically exhale, even if it's only for a tenth of a second.

Practing to coordinate the breath with the moves helps you to learn which muscles to contract at the right time. It helps to bring the torso into the move, so it's a part of learning to hit with your whole body instead of just your arm. I'm not saying this is the only way to learn it, and it may not even be the best way, but it's one way.


PLC

[CFT]

Originally posted by Josh Vogel
One of the tricks that one of my sparring partners taught me about using the breath is to strike when you see someone breathing in. I don't know about everyone, but I know that when I am breathing in, there is a point where it's more difficult to strike than when exhaling, so this would make it an opportune time to strike me.Hmmm,
In actual combat or any level of sparring with intent to make contact, one would be concentrating on watching the limbs on the whole rather than the opponents breathing.

From my personal, albeit limited, experience whenever there is an exchange during sparring, I'm too busy looking for where the next move is coming from and blocking/countering.

In any case, breathing motions are all too easily camouflaged by gross body movements, e.g. stepping to get a better line of attack.

It may be possible against a static opponent to observe the pattern of their breathing, but the opponent doesn't necessarily need to strike; they can block or parry whilst breathing out.

[Josh Vogel]

Hi,

That's definitely true. It's dificult to tell if someone is breathing in or out during sparring. This is not to say that it's impossible or something not worth working on (for me). But when sparring (and please bear in mind that I'm no expert, but I work hard at it) one has to pay attention to many things at once. It's not like reading a book in which the only thing you see are the words, but rather like trying to see the words, the page and be aware of how your hands hold the book open.

The distinction that you made about whether one does this in sparring or combat is a very astute one. Breathing takes a different role in different contexts. In a bar, I don't think I would have the luxury of time to wait and watch for a weak spot to repeatedly attack.

Sparring, though, there is that time. From the little experience that I've had, things happen very fast when exchanging blows or waiting for an attack. One might watch hands or feet or the whole body, but it's not a thing full of effort. Getting drawn too far into that makes me slower. So I prefer to kind of keep an abstract sense of what the other person is doing; looking for the opportunities that I want. When I have a good day, I can sometimes just act without thinking about it too much. When I don't , I eat alot of punches. But I almost always try to keep that abstract sense of what my opponent is doing, which includes looking for that intake of breath whether big or small. There are signs that are different for each person. Most of the people that I've worked with keep it small, but there is still that slight expanding when they breathe in. Or some other thing. Anyway, I'm rambling and am in a rush. Any thoughts would be much appreciated. I like the criticism. Thanks,
Josh

[CFT]

Josh,

That is a good reply. I agree about looking at the whole book rather than just the words ... although I'm probably still lookings at the letters, or even worse the serifs :(

If you can register the extra physical cues then that is a great advantage.

I'm just questioning whether someone, in the "heat of battle", can REALLY pick up and exploit the smallest of physical cues? Possibly someone with great skill and experience can (not an attack on your prowess!).

I kind of doubt that boxers or competitors in MMA tournaments are looking at the breathing of their opponents. Sorry to drag these references into the Nei Jia forum, I've not read many posts here and I'm uncertain of the sensitivities.

[Josh Vogel]

Hi,

That's true, skill is a very big issue here. Like I said before, I'm not particularly good at martial arts but I like to train in ratios. Like right now, I'm lucky if I can make two methods (techniques, timing thiings, etc...) work out of twenty. I'd like to be able to make them all work and that's what I'm going for. This includes being able to take advantage in a lapse of attention or the breathing thing or attacking at a good time or with a good technique.

For instance, lets say I can spot thirty "gaps" in my opponents guard during a ten minute sparring session. How many can I take advantage of? Two or three right now, but maybe more in the future. The breathing thing to me is just another "gap", much like postural weakness or that space created before or after an attack lands.

The MMA example is a good one. I think that they, just like every other type of fighter have individual tricks that they like to take advantage of. Some guys use superior endurance as a trick, some guys use fake outs. Maybe some use breathing tricks also, I couldn't say, but in the end there are tons of "tricks" that can be useful.

I learned about the breathing thing from my brother who is a Shotokan guy. I've not heard it mentioned by any of my IMA teachers, but found it useful for me personally to work on. He's pretty good at it and the guy that he learned it from is (from what my brother says and the bruises on him say) extremely good at it. My IMA teachers focus alot on "gaps in awareness" type stuff. They have never said to attack on the inhale, but mention attacking when there is a break in the breathing/posture/ awareness, etc... Again, I'm no good at it yet, but I've had them "play" with me plenty enough to know that it works for them.

Anyway, thanks for the great discussion, this is interesting to me.
Josh

[Ray Pina]

Midnight, your opening post is great and really reveals at what level I am at.

Currently, when I'm fighting, my mind is not worried about how to stop what's coming at me -- my body snaps into the proper shape -- its managing the structure, making sure everything is as it should be. I'm getting better at it and the last part is making sure the ming men is tucked with everythign else upon contact/pushing, ect.

I've been shown how to sink the rib and breath to add power and have done it in drills but it never comes out in fighting. I have a fight in Sept. but after that internal and weapons will be my focus.

You've touched upon a great subject here, the core of the matter. Thanks.

[Midnight]

Thanks Evo, I appreciate the thumbs up. Good to know someone is on the same page as me with what I described.

Sometimes it takes experience to fully understand. Alot of people in the world are the "seeing is believing" type.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

As much as possible, i try to teach appropriate breathing at the same time i teach a movement.. that being said, there are differing levels of breath-work.. novice and intermediate students routinely focus on normal abdominal breathing, expanding the abdominals (DanTien) to pull air into the lungs, contracting the abdominals to squeeze air out.. at more advanced levels, reverse abdominal breath-work is consistent with the application and actual body mechanics..

Looking at Brush-knee, as the body is in a forward stance (bow-stance) the player should be exhaling.. the movement is Yang, the application is Yang and.. expansion is Yang.. so, although the player is exhaling the abdominals should be expanding as well, this maintains the Yang nature of the movement and creates a positive pressure in the abdominal cavity that cushions the organs.. during the Roll-back, the torso is compressed, the player is retreating and storing energy and inhaling, in effect the abdominals are contracting during the inhaling process.. this is a complete Yin movement.. retreating, inhaling, storing, contracting.. But, this is also a discipline that must be cultivated into a natural feeling and beginning students already have a full plate before them..

Another critical aspect of breath-work is contractions of the floor of the torso (perineum/Hui Yin), similar to Keegle exercises.. during reverse abdominal breathing, contracting the perineum while inhaling and contracting the abdominals seals the breath energy into the DanTien.. this also acts as a "pump" to move Qi out of the DanTien into circulation.. another aspect of this is the subtle rocking of the pelvis, a natural occurance as contraction (compression) and release (expansion) cycles.. the rocking of the pelvis stores and releases energy along the spine (the spinal wave)..

So, while i familiarize students with body mechanics (novice and early intermediate phases) i rely on normal abdominal breath-work. Once the student demonstrates they can free the mind during forms practice, i fill it back up again with the focus on reverse abdominal breathing.. i experimented with several willing novices (+/- 1 year experience) and found the forms work and breath-work to be too complex at that stage.

Any insights regarding the appropriate time to introduce reverse breathing will be appreciated..

Be well..

[Midnight]

Well said Bob, thats where I get all my breathing practice and timing from.


Hence what I said in the beginning of this post.


Originally posted by Midnight
Perhaps it's just the Tai Chi in me speaking for all of my martial arts, but I'm a firm believer in timing. Inhaling as I contract, and exhaling as I expand.