Stick to what comes, Follow what goes...

[couch]

I've heard this saying and a few others that have been associated with Wing Chun. Another is that "Wing Chun never steps back."

Is this true for all lineages? What about TWC with the side-stepping that they do, I guess that wouldn't be considered stepping back, but I've also heard that LT steps forward when met with an attacker. What about Moy Yat, etc?

Anyone care to elaborate on what they do and why? I'm loving the differences about Wing Chun. Like what different masters consider the centreline, etc.

Thanks in advance,
Couch

[FlyingChi]

Stepping forward can weaken the attack. Especially kicks because you are intercepting the force.

I'm not so sure about "never steps back," redirect sounds better.

1. If the way is free, go forward (attack).
2. If the way is too strong, give.
3. If the way is restricted, stick.
4. If the way retreats, follow.

Side stepping is another tool used to accomplish the above.

[Gangsterfist]

Ah the Wing Chun Kuen Kuits!

These are the concepts of wing chun and ultimately every lineage will at the very least share similar thoughts.

For example, I have been told its:

Receive what comes in
Escort it out when it leaves
Upon loss of contact, rush in

So, it basically all means the same thing. Now my sifu is chinese and he will tell me that you cannot always litterally translate madarin or cantonese into english. There may be variations just because of that. Like for the above saying, its not suppose to mean bum rush in. It means more like flow in.

Confusing huh? LOL

[old jong]

IMHO
You should consider not stepping back directly
,a big mistake that give a good opportunity to your opponent to simply follow you with some more!
Using Toi Ma (turning at an angle while stepping back)is a better idea since it will prevent further attacks by changing the line.It also put you in a favorable attacking position.

You could also simply step to the side if you prefer but you still have to adjust afterward to get in attacking position.

There are plently of Toi Ma movements in the Bot Jam Do form.;)

[reneritchie]

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/how/formulae/index.html

[anerlich]

Another is that "Wing Chun never steps back."

TWC has a specifc backward step, and the forms contain several backward movements.

"Never" is far too strong a word for most situations. Generally the kuit are guidelines rather than physical laws.

As others have mentioned, going straight back is often not the best strategy, sidestepping may be better. Repetitive backward steps are usually a really bad idea, most people will get overrun by their forward moving opponent. And few can hit with any power while moving backwards (Ali was an exception, but he was also Ali)

[Gangsterfist]

Agreed with Anerlich-

Never say never. It may not be ideal to step back but sometimes you just may have to. A prime example is a few people in my taiji class are, well way bigger than I am. Pushing hands is almost impossible because some of them have close to 100lbs over me, not to mention almost a foot taller. When they come in full strength I gotta step back sometimes to get a move off. Same thing in my wing chun class (same class, same sifu). When sparring they come in real hard sometimes if you don't step back to absorb, swallow, steal, leak - whatever - the incoming attack you will find yourself on the ground picking yourself up, if you can get up.

So, even though its not ideal for wing chun perhaps remember that sometimes you just gotta step back.

[YongChun]

Against a horizontal knife slash it might pay to jump back. Wong Shun Leung also said that sometimes against kicks you step back and when they miss, they lose 1 degree of confidence which is to your advantage. You can't rush into a superior opponent and sometimes you are just not in a position to do an ideal sidestep.

Beginners tend to move back too much when they don't have to. Instead they should try to solve the problem they are running away from. Perhaps going back is a solution but often there are other solutions that don't require one to give up space. So because of this , beginners are told to never back up because Wing Chun people don't back up. But later on the rules are changed and backing up is just another tactic that has its use depending on the circumstance.

In my opinion the SLT level people should learn to fight while being very rooted, solid, stable like a mountain. Then with the CK level you learn to be very mobile, fluid, with an abilty to bridge and also defend against the chargers. At the BJ level a lot of the rules can be broken. At that stage you are less bounded by the SLT and CK guidelines yet you don't throw those away.

[Nick Forrer]

'I dont mind stepping back- but i always make sure I step back to my advantage'

This comes to pretty much the same thing as what OJ was saying- dont just step back (unless you're really in trouble) step back and change your angle (in relation to that of your opponent) so that he walks on to your punch i.e. so that he does half the work for you.

[AmanuJRY]

Hi all, newbie to the forum.

For most of my training, I was told there was not a backward step (or retreat) only dissipation movements (which were turns that in succession would actually move you back, but not straight back) only to find later that in advanced footwork there is rearward stepping (still a dissipating movement). Also in BJD there is definatly backward movement. For the most part the movements in BJD can be considered to be related to weapon defence, I have seen applications in unarmed WC/WT.

IMO, the reason that students are told (especially at early levels of training) that there is no backing up movement in WC, is to develop a stronger sense of forward energy. If a student belives it to be OK to back away from an attack, it hinders their development of chi sau. To a person with already developed chi sau skill, these movements can make excepional advantages.

My interpetation of this idea is that it's not wrong to move backward, it's just wrong to say it's right.:rolleyes:

[Matrix]

Hi AmanuJRY,

First of all, welcome.

I think your observations are pretty well founded for the most part. I would just add that, while it is acceptable in the correct circumstances to move back, you should do that with your energy still with forward intent. It's a concept that beginners may have a hard time conceptualizing until their basics are solid. Moving backwards may not really be "moving backwards", if you get my meaning.

I hope I'm not being too vague or cryptic.
It's just my 2 cents.

Bill

[AmanuJRY]

I hope I'm not being too vague or cryptic. - Matrix


Not at all. Actually, you probaly did a better job illustrating the point I was attempting to make.

Thanx

[azwingchun]

I understand and teach not to step back in the early stages of training. Due to the fact if you attacker steps in with a punch or kick and you step back equally, then you haven't gained anything, just moved both of your positions back alittle. This doesn't mean you can't do so, just means you better be able to judge how far back you need to move (not to mention, hopefully there isn't an obstacle behind you).

I prefer, as mentioned earlier to disappate back at an angle, this gives you the ability to get back away but still keeps you in position to defend and strike. Not to mention, can put you in a superior flanking position.

The other alternative is to step at an angle forward to a flanking position to your attacker. Again, I dont believe you should not ever back straight up, this may happen incidently to whatever the situation is at hand. But remember, if you don't cut forward or back at an angle you are still in straight line of the attacker, which personally, I prefer never to be. ;)

[AmanuJRY]

I think all who are participating in this thread would agree that the concept of rearward movement, other than a dissipation/turning step, is not for beginning students. I propose that we alter the topic to discuss when it may be appropriate to do so.

example one (more or less an obvious one)- the rearward stepping in BJD could be applied against a knife attack.

example two (not so obvious)- when attacked with a double-low-lying palm strike, I would take a rear step (that's right, stright back, but very short step) with low bong/kau sau's in order to dissipate my attacker's strike and draw him into a return strike of similar nature. This can't be done without the step, and a dissipation to the side leaves you open to other strikes.

J.

[azwingchun]

I guess I am not picturing what you are trying to describe. Because at anytime that you step straight back in front of an attacker you still have all their tools in front of you for their use. While the moment you are in a flanked position to your opponent and controling the arm or leg from a flanked position (outside of your attacker's limb), they will have to turn to face you to attack again. Just my opinion and may be speaking past each other. If so disregard this post. LOL!!!

[AmanuJRY]

"Just my opinion and may be speaking past each other. If so disregard this post."- azwingchun

We probably are, but I don't want to disregard your input.

I would be the first to agree that offlining gives a far better advantage, but sometimes (more like, rarely) it isn't the safest (for lack of a better term) option.

I admit I am better at explaining things with a demonstration as opposed to written description.:(

As far as "not stepping backward" as a rule, I would like to quote an analogy-
"Learning Wing Chun is like learning music, first you learn the rules, theory and structure, then you learn how to bend or break those rules in order to express yourself creativly."
J.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by azwingchun
Because at anytime that you step straight back in front of an attacker you still have all their tools in front of you for their use. AZ, I may be mistaken, but I don't believe anyone recommended moving "straight back". Anerlich, and my good friend Old Jong made that point. Your comment above is right on, IMO. I would assume that the backward step has been forced, as opposed to an arbitrary decision (which should never happen, BTW). You're trying to take a new line.

Bill

[AmanuJRY]

Just to clarify, my description above is part of a chi sau exercise. The application of the backward step described would be rare (if at all) in actual application (sparring/fighting), but in this particular chi sau exercise it is nessisary.

There are times in sparring/fighting, like when being rushed or tackled, that I would step straight back before offlining in order to help absorb/dissapate the oncoming force if that force dictates. For instance if someone was charging at you as opposed to just shooting in (of course a good front kick may end such a charge as well).

[azwingchun]

Matrix, if I am reading AmanuJRY's statement correctly, he does state stepping back gave a greater ability to avoid this certain described attack. Here is the quote:

"This can't be done without the step, and a dissipation to the side leaves you open to other strikes."

I have read this a few times, and believe he is speaking of a straight back stepping and not an angled disapation. AmanuJRY, if I am mis-quoting you please let me know. ;)

AmanuJRY, I am just of one who will always flank (or that's the plane...LOL) just about every time. Due to the fact, that when you are flanking your attacker, they only have two weapons available (without having to turn your way). But when you are facing them head on, they have all their weapons available (now hopefully you are faster than your attacker). These are my opinions based on my background and experiences and aren't to say that they are the only correct way, or that I would not ever be in the positions you are trying to convey.

Thanks for the chat!!!! ;)

[AmanuJRY]

"AmanuJRY, if I am mis-quoting you please let me know."-azwingchun

Not at all, you have it right.

"AmanuJRY, I am just of one who will always flank (or that's the plan...LOL) just about every time."- azwingchun

That would be my plan as well. I'm just saying, in the heat of combat/fight you need your foot work to be able to provide you with adaquate space to coordinate with your hands. Most of the time, off-line movements (be they forward or backward-w/forwad energy) do the job quite well. I would like to be prepared for, and able to recognize those rare moments when I may have to step straight back in order to achieve the desired result (which would be dissipation of energy and retaliation).

Even in your statement you say "just about every time", what would you be doing in the times that don't fall under that?

[azwingchun]

Just as mentioned, I do allow for backward stepping, in the unfortunate situation that I wasn't able to get to the flank (we are human...LOL), or that my attacker was of a size much greater than myself. Just as mentioned about disappating back at angles, my belief also lies in advancing. I always try to take the flank going forward as well (maybe always in not absolutely correct) but whenever possible. Again, this doesn't mean that I don't advance straight forward ever. Though, being of small stature, I find the flank much easier and effective to deal with a larger opponent.

It seems that 'WE' are speaking the same language, just our preferences seem to be different. Which can be due to many things, our size differences, lineage, or our street experiences and the results from our actual street encounters. ;)

[AmanuJRY]

Agreed...