is there ground fighting and grabling and breaking bones on the ground in KungFu..?

[MAX]

hi every one :D

my friend's i have some Questions i hope all of you solve it for me :

well my question : is there ground fighting and grabling and breaking bones on the ground in KungFu like in jiu-jitsu?
if there is can you mention to me the styles and the arts that's contain ground fighting and grabling and breaking and focusing on it?

what make me very confuse is that i saw challenge between KungFu VS jiu-jitsu it was free fighting in the UFC or PRIDE as i remember
the jiu-jitsu grape the kungfu on the ground and break his elbow and beat him
the strange thing that the KungFu was nothing in the ground he couldent go away or escape or fight like jiu-jitsu and beat him
so what i figured that kungFu is still need to focus & complete the ground fighting and grabling and breaking bones like jiu-jitsu
because it's very weak ........or there is ground fighting and grabling and breaking bones on the ground in KungFu but the fighter diden't learn very well and focus on it !!

please i want a video clips for KungFu win against Jiu-Jitsu in real fighting
so i can know that KungFu is strong in ground fighting and it can beat Jiu-Jitsu or any martal art of grabling

thanks you all

[Chang Style Novice]

Hi KKM!

[norther practitioner]

:o

Thanks for playing...

next.

[Water Dragon]

why do you hate America?

[MAX]

hi norther practitioner iam sorry iam new in this fourms and i've found this fourm the best in kungfu until now and i hope to be along member with you all:D



but please answer me because i feel bad true i feel it :(

[Kristoffer]

lol

[ShaolinTiger00]

I love this guy already!

:D

[Meat Shake]

Keep up the good work.

[MAX]

well ifeel good fron now
:p
i like you all beacuse there is responding and that mean good:D

we keeeeeeeeep working good but i must have the answer plz:(
at least videos

[Gangsterfist]

Q:Does kung fu have moves that involve grappling, ground fighting, and bone breaking?

A: Yes

[norther practitioner]

Next question:
Do kung fu schools study/practice this?

Answer:

Usually not, but there are a few exceptions.

[MAX]

thank you Gangsterfist but my Q was dose it kungfu have grabling and breaking bones if you are in ground if you have beeen forced to be on ground and you coulden,t stop the enemy


if it;s the answer yes

can you mention to me the styles and the arts that's contain ground fighting and grabling and breaking and focusing on it?
and

please i want a video clips for KungFu win against Jiu-Jitsu in real fighting
so i can know that KungFu is strong in ground fighting and it can beat Jiu-Jitsu or any martal art of grabling

thank you all

[Gangsterfist]

Okay Max-

Gimme a bit to gather up some info and try to break it down to what styles it comes from. However, you really just have to train basic ground fighting. Almost every style of kung fu will have some sort of answer. Most people just don't train it.

[red5angel]

martal art of grabling


do you mean gerbling?

http://home.tiscali.be/stebune/Animal_files/hamster.jpg

[norther practitioner]

I don't know if I should hit this lure or not.

[SevenStar]

I think he's asking this question in seriousness - just a hunch...

[KC Elbows]

I'm not so certain on the grabling, but the breaking bones on the ground comes right before you spill the chicken blood and channel the voodoo spirits. Then, you undulate your breasts while your opponent looks on in dismay. And that is kung fu.

[Gangsterfist]

Okay Max-

Here are some chinese styles of MA that do incorporate ground fighting: San Shou, almost all animal boxing (like crane, monkey, and mantis), Taiji (tai chi), actually most of the internals have forms of chin na and grappling.

Here go some links on books you may find interesting:

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/ymaa/chinfaswresf.html

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/ymaa/chinnaingrou.html

You do not have to be a proficient grappler to keep on your feet. You just have to understand the principles of ground fighting. Familiarize yourself with things like the guard, the mount, guillotine chokes, blood chokes, air chokes, joint locks, shrimping etc

Then go out and practice with a grappler. Then you should understand how to not play their game.

*edit*
also found this style
http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/wushu/shaolin/digong.html

[KC Elbows]

Gangsterfist's answer is a good one, too.

[Meat Shake]

Avoid KC Elbows voodoo spells.

Welcome to KFO.

wait wait...
No...
Kung fu magazine forums.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

a lot of them do, but to be honest i would suggest that seeking a bjj/sambo/judo school will get you better instruction than you would get at 90% of kung fu schools.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by MAX
is there ground fighting and grabling and breaking bones on the ground in KungFu like in jiu-jitsu?

Not really. There are often locking positions taught that you segue into from a takedown, but this is not the same as a ground fighting approach in itself.


the strange thing that the KungFu was nothing in the ground

That's not really that strange. Most martial arts do not have approaches that address ground fighting in itself.

[David Jamieson]

1.ditang chuan
2.Shuai Jiao
3.Bak Sil lum (many breaking techniques not much ground fighting)
4. etc etc etc

larger styles of chinese martial arts will contain sets that in turn will help develop your skills in close, medium and long range.

in regards to grappling, there are ways to grapple once you're on the ground and there are ways to grapple before you go to the ground.

The name of the game is to not be taken down and so, many techniques focus on not allowing yourself to be taken down.

However, because of the recent surge in fascination with the incorporation of wrestling techniques, judo techniques and of course Jujitsu, many people are adding these techniques to their skill pile.

I can say from experience that pretty much every Chinese martial art I have tried or experienced has some element of grappling, but not many spend a lot of time using mounts and guards as starting positions like you will find in many of teh ground schools where the focus is pretty much the ground stuff.

It's all good and anyone who actually wants to use their stuff competitively should learn a few techs for fighting from on your back to getting back up safely, etc etc.

cheers

[MAX]

iam sorry for asking too much the truth you guy's are helping me to understand the grabling on the ground and this important for me to understand

my friend SevenStar true iam asking in seriousness because i have no knowledge about it

my friend Meat Shake you welcoooooooooome

my friend Gangsterfist i thank you very much for the info ,the link's and advices you gaved me it;s very helpful for me

is it chin na one of the internal art;s or it's contained with the ather internal arts like XingYi ?

can you give me more link's and video clips about KungFu ground fighting and garbling i know you have gaved me it . it was very good but i love to read and improve my knowledge in it and make big research for any one want to know if there is grabling and ground fighting ......and my friend Gangsterfist if you can mention to me more arts for non internal's i would be greatful to you

take this clips it;s about KungFu lose against jiujitsu .....


http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=11 (http://)


http://neurology.med.upenn.edu/~jason/fights/Challenge-Jiujitsu.vs.KungFu.avi (http://)


i want you;r opinion's what are the mistake's they have done it?

do they have Techniques to avoid and involve the moves of the ground fighting?

and do they have knowledge about ground fighting?

thank you alllllllll very much

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by MAX
is it chin na one of the internal art;s or it's contained with the ather internal arts like XingYi ?

No. Chin na is used generally to refer to locking in the chinese martial arts, and some people specialze in studying chinese methods of locking and call this chin na.

In any case, it seems people are confusing ground fighting with grappling generally. Most chinese martial arts have stand up grappling, but this is not at all the same as ground fighting.

[Ray Pina]

E-Chuan fights on the ground...

It is my master's own style developed after many years of closed door study and discipleship of Ba Gua, Hsing-I and Flying Dragon Pole .... you can only find it on Bowery Street, NYC Call (212) 226-1792 and stop by.
....


I saw these two guys fight last weekend -- interesting, they both had Gracie as a last name -- and one tried to shoot in and got KTFO by a roundhouse kick to the head and the other one got his faced beat in .... those guys probbaly can't fight on the ground like jujitsu though so they had it coming.

[Neckbones]

Max,

My opinion on the bullshido.net video clip is that the Kung Fu practitioner was inexperienced. And here's my opinion why. First he went straight against his opponent with hands down at the sides and then threw a crappy kick which was easily blocked setting the Kung Fu practitioner immediately off balance, which is why he got squashed by the Jiu-Jitsu practitioner. What he should have done is positioned is stance in a lower center of gravity, kept his hand up to ready for a block or strike, and the only time a Kung Fu practitioner wants to be off balance with a kick like that is when he can absolutely get away with it. I'm not a ground fighting expert in Kung Fu, but in the video, that seemed more like wrestling than MA. Now, I understand that in the video, they were just sparring, but ground fighting in Kung Fu uses a lot of pressure points, twists, breaks, making the opponent expose their groin for attack , etc.

Can anyone else back me up on this?

Regards,

Neckbones

[MAX]

my friend EvolutionFist iam sorrrry iam very far away from you can you send me your real name and i;ll call you
can you give me link's for E-Chuan:(

and youve said


I saw these two guys fight last weekend -- interesting, they both had Gracie as a last name -- and one tried to shoot in and got KTFO by a roundhouse kick to the head and the other one got his faced beat in .... those guys probbaly can't fight on the ground like jujitsu though so they had it coming.

what dose it mean KTFO:confused:
did they fight aginst your school and lost :eek:

[Gangsterfist]

You don't have to train a grappling art to be a good all round fighter. You just have to know the basics, just like everything else. You don't need to train kung fu to be a good stand up fighter. You just gotta know how to punch, hence the basics.

I do not formally train any ground fighting style but have sparred many judo/jujitsu guys in the past. Also I sparred some guys with college wrestling backgrounds. I guess I could give you some tips that helped me while on the ground.

1) when getting taken down, sprawl and counter their leverage. Once you have established some stability, strike them.

2) Do not tense up, remain relaxed and remain calm. A lot of times grapplers will try to bull dog you, get in your face, and intimidate you on the ground. They will also pummel your face if they can. Remain relaxed and calm so you can try your best to avoid this.

3) Don't give up, and don't stop until you gain superior position. Use micro movements and body structure to get out of submissions/joint locks. However, remember you have to be quick once a joint is locked or a submission is locked its sometimes really hard to get out.

I was sparring my roomate once who has very little martial arts experience, but he was very quick. He speared me on the ground and then started smothering my face with his hands and tried to get me into some sort of submission move. I relaxed and just moved my body in small motions to avoid his attempts in putting me into a bad submission. The very second I felt him start to get tired I grabbed some flesh above his rib cage, pulled and twisted. He gave a bit on that side and I shot him off me with a hip toss (is that what you call it when someone is on top of you and you use your hips to buck them off?). Held on to his arm when I tossed him, swung my legs around and arm barred him. He wrestled, but I am not sure for how long.

Another time I was sparring an experienced judo guy who also did the internals (xing yi, and ba gua). Everytime he got me on the ground I just would try my hardest not to play his game. It was a lot harder than my previous sparring matches because this guy had several years experience. Now, he did get me on the ground a few times. I asked him before the match if he wanted to ban any kind of techniques. He said watch his shoulder cuz it was hurting him, no eye gouges, and no throat or knee attacks. Fair enough. The times he got me the ground I just grabbed flesh in sensitive areas and twisted and pulled. He was pretty tough so it didn't always work, but a few times I found some areas on his body that he did not like that. He would give out in pain for a split second and I would try to turn the tables. He tried getting me in the mount a few times as well, and I was able to shrimp out of the situation (shrimping is an important basic skill IMHO). Also, I had several opportunities to grab his testicles, strike them, or hurt them in any other bad way. I chose to be nice and not do that since it was a friendly sparring match. So remember in real situations grappling is way different than in the ring.

In the end of the match he no longer was going to the ground, he as fighting me standing up. He found it easier to attack me that way rather than on the ground. He was always getting tired from putting way to much effort to gain control on the ground. All I basically did was shrimp, triangle out, use micro movements and body structure.

He did however also a few times get me in a few submissions that really hurt and I tapped once or twice during our whole match.

so just go out and practice with a grappler. When they beat you on the ground ask them what they did, and how they would react to it. Most grapplers are friendly and show you what you are doing wrong. That is pretty much how I learned.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by MAX
what dose it mean KTFO:confused: Knocked the Fizzuck Out.

[Neckbones]

Max-


what dose it mean KTFO

Knocked The F(_)ck Out :p

[MAX]

my friend Gangsterfist

thank you very much

now my friend i'll try very hard to make a big research about ground fighting grabling and locks and braking bones in kungfu

not for myself for every one :D

so until any one can lock at it and get benefit's and the art;s and the styles that contain it and how he can avoid ground fighting


i hope from you all to give me more info:p

i;ll do your advice and i'll go for grablers but i'll try to fight them with kungfu grabling atr's you gaved me and the athers they gaved me and try to improve my skills by fightinig them :)


my friend EvolutionFist iam waiting for you

[Fei jiao]

Notice that in the video, when the grappler takes the KF guy on the ground the KF guy is grabbing his head?
I don't know about BJJ rules, but in a real fight that would have ended there. The grappler would have had his neck broken, end of story.

[Chang Style Novice]

Oh, brother...

Hi, KKM!

[Ray Pina]

Here's a link to my master's school: http://www.chan-internal-martial-arts.com/

My name's Ray Pina, you can e-mail me anytime at rpina@hearst.com but put something in the header so I know it's not spam .... it's my work e-mail and I get a lot of crap.

Now, I was kind of being quick with you before because I wasn't sure if you were just busting balls or not because there's a lot of that here.

To be honest with you, you will have to search long and hard to find a kung fu school that teacher ground fighting. My style is from a Chinese man born in China who learned from Chinese masters so the stuff is Chinese but we don't really like to be labeled "kung fu" .... go look at these schools, you'll soon learn why.

If you want to be a good fighter spend a lot of time looking around. If you wan to get good on the ground, go fight a juijitsu school, a BJJ school or a gracie school.

If you want good hands quick, take boxing. If you want to learn trapping and sticking (kung fu qualities) real quick, find wing chun.

If you want good hands and feet real quick, check tai boxing.

Of course, these are just quick fixes. You need to go find what you want and it's really hard to find one place that has it all and satisfies everything.

I've been training since I was 4 years old. I have just found a school three years ago (I'm 30) that was what I was looking for but didn't know it at the time.

I think the saying is true: when the student is ready (willing) the master will present himself.

[Fei jiao]

<Oh, brother...>

Chang Style Novice, Care to explain what you mean by "Oh bother"?

If you disagree I'd like to hear your comments...

[Chang Style Novice]

I mean breaking necks isn't so easy, especially when the guy who's neck you're trying to break (with a grappling technique) is a much more experienced grappler than you.

Although, in fairness, I have no idea what video you're talking about. Whatever it is, I don't think it was linked in this thread. Maybe the guy's got a better hold on the grappler's head than I imagine. But you said head, not neck, which makes me think the hold isn't that great.

[Fei jiao]

It is easy to break a neck the way he was holding it, except if the guy gets out of it quickly, which is not the case.
He's holding him for a few seconds there, enough time to break the neck. Of course it would have killed him and this is not allowed. But before dismissing a style you should acknowledge the fact that they were playing by the Jiu-Jitsu rules and, yes, a kung fu guy will loose if he tries to play the BJJ game, same as a BJJ would loose to, say, TKD in a TKD match.

I hope you don't fall for the "No rules" b.s. because there are rules in those matches.

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm still not able to see the videos. Further comments on this from me are going to have to wait until I can try a different computer.

[Fei jiao]

I agree that it's a bit hard to see if he has a good grip or not, but if he did, the break would be easy (he's holding his head around his arm)...

anyways take a look for yourself. This particular situation might be debatable, but my point is that in those kinds of matches some lethal moves should be acknowledged to make the game fair.

It is my opinion.

http://neurology.med.upenn.edu/~jason/fights/Challenge-Jiujitsu.vs.KungFu.avi

[Chang Style Novice]

Grr - that link gives me sound but no vid.

I'll try a windows machine sometime this weekend.

[Gangsterfist]

One comment I would like to make is that when you fight someone its not your style Vs their style. Its you Vs them. You fight people not styles.

Whoever trains harder and has the most attributes and more skill should win the fight. However, that is not always the case.

If kung fu people would just train how to defend grappling then it would not be that big of a deal IMHO.

[Fei jiao]

Gangsterfist, I agree 100% with your comment.

The point I was trying to make is that you often see people say BJJ beats everyone, but without considering the fact that they're fighting according to BJJ RULES. To make it fair one should acknowledge certain techniques when applied, techniques you have to pull back so that no one gets hurt.

I once saw a kung fu guy sparring with a wrestler. The wrestler was big and strong, and was used to take punches. The kung fu guy punched him a few times in the throat (actually, next to the throat) and (next to) the eyes...but the wrestler didn't acknowledge it (he was used to fight according to wrestling rules). The KF guy had to almost break his nose before the wrestler ackowledged the strike...

Now, I'm in no way saying that Kung Fu is better than wrestling. Just that this particular KF guy was a better fighter than the wrestler. And unfortunately the wrestler didn't even notice what would have hurt him bad in a real fight situation...

Get my point?

[Gangsterfist]

Well I watched the video clip-

I am not sure that was a kung fu practitioner. He looked more like a kick boxer. However, were there rules to this fight? I saw several openings that could have changed the outcome of the fight on both sides.

Fei Jiao-

I know what you are getting at. If you read my previous post about fighting in ground fight situations I grabbed flesh to get out of it. Which is usually banned from any kind of full contact fighting. If you want to call it cheating go ahead. I know in a real fight if I were on the ground like that getting pummeled with blows I would do something more drastic to get out of it.

However, needless to say, BJJ has proved itself on many occasions against many styles. BJJ on the street, and BJJ in the ring are two different stories. I am sure they have more stand up and strikes they practice for street fighting.

[Fei jiao]

Gangsterfist, I think we see eye to eye on this topic. Espescially the part about "cheating" (in a real fight there's no such thing as cheating, or being loyal).

And I think you understood the point I was trying to make. I was trying to prevent MAX (the original poster) not to fall for the "No Rules" fad of BJJ matches which in reality does have rules (in favor of BJJ). This is just a marketing stunt to get people to think BJJ is the ultimate martial art.... That being said, I don't discard BJJ either, as you said Gangsterfist, BJJ has proven itself on many occasions.

But come to think of it, I don't really know what were the rules in this video, or either if the kung fu guy was really a kung fu guy.

My bottom line is, an expert is an expert. Who cares what style he does, the best fighter wins, period.

I think the biggest mistake is to try to play the other guy's game. If you fight a grappler, don't try to grapple with him, if you fight a good kicker, don't stay in his kicking range etc...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fei jiao
I think the biggest mistake is to try to play the other guy's game. If you fight a grappler, don't try to grapple with him, if you fight a good kicker, don't stay in his kicking range etc...

The biggest mistake is not knowing his game. if a grappler wants you on the ground, and he is good, he WILL get you there. you need to be able to deal with that, and know how to get up quickly and efficiently. you need to drill takedown defenses against a grappler.

A grappler needs to be aware of tactics stand up guys use as well.

[Fei jiao]

<...The biggest mistake is not knowing his game. if a grappler wants you on the ground, and he is good, he WILL get you there...>

That's partly true. Like Gangsterfist said, it depends on the guy, not the style.
If the grappler wants me on the ground and he's good, he'll get me there, but only if he's better than me (I'm a Kung fu guy).

Just because a grappler is involved in the fight doesn't mean the fight will end up on the ground. If the grappler is the best of the two, it probably will, but if the Kung Fu guy is better, he won't fall for it.

Personally I don't think a Kung fu guy needs to train Jiu-Jitsu to be able to fight a grappler. If you're good at Kung Fu you should be able to fight the grappler with your Kung Fu, otherwise your training is poor.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by SevenStar

. you need to be able to deal with that, and know how to get up quickly and efficiently. you need to drill takedown defenses against a grappler.

.

This means you need to be learn grappling.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Fei jiao
<.
If the grappler wants me on the ground and he's good, he'll get me there,

Good at what?

[Starchaser107]

takedowns presumably

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Starchaser107
takedowns presumably

Well then, I agree.

[Fei jiao]

Well, when I say "if the grappler is good" I mean good at grappling! :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Fei jiao
Well, when I say "if the grappler is good" I mean good at grappling! :rolleyes:

Right. So if the grappler is good, 9 times out of 10 you are going be on the ground at some point regardless. I agree.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fei jiao
<...The biggest mistake is not knowing his game. if a grappler wants you on the ground, and he is good, he WILL get you there...>

That's partly true. Like Gangsterfist said, it depends on the guy, not the style.
If the grappler wants me on the ground and he's good, he'll get me there, but only if he's better than me (I'm a Kung fu guy).

or if he's familiar with what you do - (I used to be a kung fu guy)
to this day, the biggest problem stand up guys have with grapplers is not knowing how to deal with them - you can't just mystically learn it from training in your style alone and no grappling work.

Just because a grappler is involved in the fight doesn't mean the fight will end up on the ground. If the grappler is the best of the two, it probably will, but if the Kung Fu guy is better, he won't fall for it.

see above

Personally I don't think a Kung fu guy needs to train Jiu-Jitsu to be able to fight a grappler. If you're good at Kung Fu you should be able to fight the grappler with your Kung Fu, otherwise your training is poor.

you don't have to train in bjj. you do need familiarity with the tactics. your kung fu doesn't teach you how to shoot. consequently, how are you going to deal with it, as you aren't knowing what to expect. You may have a technique in your style's aresenal that will allow you to deal with it - I'm sure you do - but you don't know when to apply it, as you don't know what to expect...

[Fei jiao]

<..Right. So if the grappler is good, 9 times out of 10 you are going be on the ground at some point regardless. I agree..>

That's not what I said.
The grappler will take me to the ground only if he's a better fighter than me, regardless of styles.

If I'm better at Kung Fu than he is at Jiu-Jitsu, I'm not going on the ground. See what I mean? The best fighter wins at his own game.

I'm not a grappler, I'm not going to grapple the guy. I'm going to use whatever I'm good at, and so is he. The best guy wins, no matter what style he's using.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Fei jiao


If I'm better at Kung Fu than he is at Jiu-Jitsu, I'm not going on the ground.

Well, here's where I disagree.

[Fei jiao]

So you're basically saying that ANY fight involving a grappler will end up on the ground? (even if the grappler has inferior skills?).

If that's what you're saying then we'll have to agree to diagree.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Fei jiao
So you're basically saying that ANY fight involving a grappler will end up on the ground? (even if the grappler has inferior skills?).


At some point.

I would never fight a boxer and imagine that I wouldn't get punched at some point, even if he's a worse boxer than I am a wrestler.

[Fei jiao]

Here's what I think:

A good boxer wins with his boxing, a good grappler wins with his grappling, a good Kung fu guy wins using his Kung Fu, a good Kicker will win with his Kicks etc...I don't believe cross training is necessary, if you're good at what you do. But I guess that's an infinite debate...

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Fei jiao
...I don't believe cross training is necessary, if you're good at what you do. But I guess that's an infinite debate...

No its not. I believe your position has been disproven many times over.

[Fei jiao]

How so?

[Fei jiao]

Ok let me just say why I think that way.
A few years ago I sparred with a guy who was training in grappling (I don't know what specific style). At one point he jumped in my legs trying to take me to the ground. I didn't expect that attack, but I thought it was a stupid thing to do. I just lifted my knee, which he got right in the face. He didn't expect it either and I left him with a black eye. I didn't even knee strike him, he just crashed into my knee, that stopped him cold.

Now, he probably wasn't a good grappler, I'm sure there's better ways to attack in grappling. Nevertheless that proves my point. Just because somebody tries to take me to the ground doesn't mean I'll fall for it, even if I didn't expect it.

Bottom line, the best fighter will win, period. Jiu-jitsu isn't any weaker than any other art, but not necesarily stronger either. What matters is who it is, not what he practices.

[Starchaser107]

even if a hypothetical superior striker is opposing a weaker wrestler there is a possibility that the fight might end up on the ground, and it's just reality. It's that simple , no matter how great your striking game is.
It's foolish to take an insular approach to fighting, thinking that because one's stand up striking skills are so superb there isn't a chance they might end up on the ground , or encounter techs or situations that they were unprepared for.

likewise for the grappler/wrestler to think it's beyond them to get ktfo before they can begin doing what they do best.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Fei jiao
How so?

In the past decade there have been numerous venues that put people of different arts together to compete. The results were clear. Consequently, those who excell in competition allowing for any number of fighting options are those who cross-train. This is not news.

[Gangsterfist]

Here is what I do right now:

Ving Tsun (yip man/ho kam ming lineage)
Taijiquan (yang)
and soon I will start cross training in tai hui (6 elbows kung fu)

Those are the main styles I go to class for and train as my main fighting styles.

However, in the past I have trained: Triangling, shrimping, sprawling, guard, mount, joint locks, chin na, clench, alligator crawls, san shou, boxing, wrestling, so on and so forth.

Infact my sifu is wanting us to do san shou right now to learn how to fight in the clench and toss people. He says its good training. However, my roots still come from wing chun and tai chi. Once my work schedule allows me to cross train in tai hui I am going to take that up as well.

One of these days I might even walk into a BJJ school and start training there, but I kind of doubt it. I have taken judo before and jujitsu so I have a basic idea. I have read some of the gracie's publications so I have a basic idea. I have sparred and worked out with some guys that know this stuff, so I get a basic idea.

Just because you are some kung fu guru and have awesome stand up that does not mean you won't get taken to the ground.

[Ray Pina]

The best fighter SHOULD win. But an inferior BJJ guy can still get you down even though you are better at Kung Fu than he is at BJJ.

A guy with less hand skill can still clinch you, it happens all the time. From this position, you have the POTENTIAL to be taken down. Let's even forget that, and talk about the untied shoe lace or banana peel potential.

Either way, you CAN wind up on the ground and he may get on you and try to lock and in that case you have to know something. Certainly don't kneed to know BJJ, but you need to know how to take care of it.

I 100% agree there is no need to train BJJ, but a Kung Fu man should spend at least 20% of his training time on his back at certain points. Not always, but put aside a month, where you spend 30 minutes doing it.... even if its before or after class.

It's too easy to dismiss it. But the areas you don't want to traon or feel you need to train are often the very areas that need the most training.

I beat plenty of TKD guys, but they still kick and land a few from time to time even if I jam it up and drop them. All it takes is one sweep and now you're on the ground .... do you know what to do?

[SevenStar]

fei jiao, you sound too theoretical... try this experiment - stop by a local bjj school and roll with them for one class. Tell them that you want to start standing, and see how long it takes them to get you down, or if they get you down at all.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist

I 100% agree there is no need to train BJJ, but a Kung Fu man should spend at least 20% of his training time on his back at certain points. Not always, but put aside a month, where you spend 30 minutes doing it.... even if its before or after class.



Is that amount of time going to give you an advantage over even a relative beginner in grappling? If you admit the likelihood of going to the ground, why spend an amount of time on it that is unlikely to change the outcome?

[Starchaser107]

sounds like a good idea.

[Fei jiao]

fei jiao, you sound too theoretical... try this experiment - stop by a local bjj school and roll with them for one class. Tell them that you want to start standing, and see how long it takes them to get you down, or if they get you down at all.

I never said I would never go down. If my opponent's speciality is to take people down and he's a good at what he does, he might succeed. But being on the ground doesn't mean the fight is lost. I might win or loose, but how many people can handle pokes in the eyes, throat and groin?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fei jiao
I agree that it's a bit hard to see if he has a good grip or not, but if he did, the break would be easy (he's holding his head around his arm)...

anyways take a look for yourself. This particular situation might be debatable, but my point is that in those kinds of matches some lethal moves should be acknowledged to make the game fair.

It is my opinion.

http://neurology.med.upenn.edu/~jason/fights/Challenge-Jiujitsu.vs.KungFu.avi

from this link, I get sound, but no video. I keep getting an error while downloading the codec.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fei jiao


I never said I would never go down. If my opponent's speciality is to take people down and he's a good at what he does, he might succeed. But being on the ground doesn't mean the fight is lost. I might win or loose, but how many people can handle pokes in the eyes, throat and groin?

before we ever even address what pain MIGHT be there, let's reverse it... you know nothing on the ground, right? you are now in his domain. Once he has you controlled, don't you think it would be easier for HIM to do that stuff to YOU?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Fei jiao


I never said I would never go down. If my opponent's speciality is to take people down and he's a good at what he does, he might succeed. But being on the ground doesn't mean the fight is lost. I might win or loose, but how many people can handle pokes in the eyes, throat and groin?


LOL
When the theory starts to breakdown, the 'poke in the eye' inevitably comes out! This is the signal that the end is near...

[Gangsterfist]

Just right click and save target as and use windows media player. You should not need a codec to play an .avi file. That is what I did and it worked.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by unkokusai



LOL
When the theory starts to breakdown, the 'poke in the eye' inevitably comes out! This is the signal that the end is near...

I can testify to the fact that eye jabs are great tools. Not necessary fight enders, but more like means to an end.

I got jabbed in the eye pretty hard and it blinded me for a few seconds from being stunned. It did not drop me, per se, but it gave my opponet the time to then beat the crap out of me while I was defenseless.

So, don't disreguard any technique until you have applied it in a live situation. I have also applied eye jabs (gouges) in real situations and they do work.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist



So, don't disreguard any technique until you have applied it in a live situation. I have also applied eye jabs (gouges) in real situations and they do work.

What? You're the first person in history to be poked in the eye? It's not the magic pill the desperate want it to be.

[Starchaser107]

it's not as easy as you might think to win a fight with a tech such an eye gouge , a throat poke , or a groin kick... these are basic nothings that anyone with or without martial arts training can do.

I've seen people take such strikes and keep going. its not always gonna be the case, alot of times it might help out a little , but to think that poking someones eyes is going to always be effective is
well

dangerously nieve.

[Gangsterfist]

I definately don't rely on them, but they do freaking hurt. Like I said its not really a fight ender, but more like means to ending the fight.

[Merryprankster]

Pain compliance is the wrong answer to any question.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Pain compliance is the wrong answer to any question.

What about:

"What does Madame Severitus charge $50.00 an hour for?"

[Meat Shake]

""What does Madame Severitus charge $50.00 an hour for?""

You've stumbled into a world of large lusty women and s&m.
:eek:


Eyegouges.... I got elbowed in the eye yesterday... or kneed. Im not sure. It happened on the ground... I didnt notice until I looked in the mirror. I got my nuts squashed pretty bad a couple of times, but it wouldnt end a fight. A good fighter wont even stall, just be angry.
Throat... I get my throat hit and grabbed so much its rediculous... If the person you are fighting is used to it, dont rely on it. Learn and train high percentage techniques that you can rely on to end a fight.

[MAX]

take this link for those they couldent play the clip you downlaod the divx then play the clip

http://download.com.com/3001-2139-10247467.html
http://download.com.com/3001-2139-10247467.html (http://)

[MAX]

well guy's

if i have ground fighting and grabling and breaking bones on the ground in KungFu

from the specialized arts in ground fighting like : san shue, chin na , E-chuan , and the ather styles etc
why would i go to BJJ school to learn ground fighting if i have it already in my kungfu

second thing after i learn the ground fighting in kungfu and improved my self i can go to them not just to take a fight with them but also to know there fight basic's and learn from my mistakes if there gona be any mistakes
and may be you will be beter than they are without learning BJJ

guy's don't forget that the benefit's of learning the ground fighting in kungfu it is ont just on ground ..you can also beat the grabler while you are standing up even if he is Professional because you already know the ground fighting basic's so you know his game infact you have learnd the ground fighting from KungFu art's and if he take down you would know how to get out because you are also aground fighter
and may be you beat him also on the ground

my idea guy's that there is many art's in kungfu specialized in every thing but it neeed mors hard work and more constrate on you'r game to be the best fighter

as for the two clips my opinion taht the first one i dont think he is a real kungfu fighter beacause the way he begin the fight was wrong and this mean he dosen;t know what kind of game that his opponent is playing then on the ground he couldent do any thing because he dident learn at least ground fighting basic's

the second one the same but he also dident learn ground fighting

those both clips show also the bad tactic they do they should know there opponent's and know the game of there opponent's because kungfu contain almost every thing but some of them dosent constrate on ground fighting so you need more hard work searching ,training and constrating etc etc in kunguf


thank's all

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MAX
well guy's

if i have ground fighting and grabling and breaking bones on the ground in KungFu

from the specialized arts in ground fighting like : san shue, chin na , E-chuan , and the ather styles etc
why would i go to BJJ school to learn ground fighting if i have it already in my kungfu

go train with a bjj guy, and all will be revealed...

seriously, think about it...you train kung fu, right? so you are training strikes, kicks, weapons, forms, some grappling, etc...

now you have a bjj guy who spends the same amount of time as you or more, doint nothing except grappling...


1. Do you think your ground fighting would compare to his?

2. He knows the grappler's mind, so he can definitely help you to stay on your feet while fighting a grappler.

like we said, of course you don't NEED to cross train, but it can only help.

second thing after i learn the ground fighting in kungfu and improved my self i can go to them not just to take a fight with them but also to know there fight basic's and learn from my mistakes if there gona be any mistakes
and may be you will be beter than they are without learning BJJ

that's true. However, you don't want to get bad habits ingrained... That was the line I though on. When I was in CMA, we grappled. when I started bjj and judo, I realized that not only was the stuff I was learning quite basic, I was taught some of those basics improperly...

guy's don't forget that the benefit's of learning the ground fighting in kungfu it is ont just on ground ..you can also beat the grabler while you are standing up even if he is Professional because you already know the ground fighting basic's so you know his game infact you have learnd the ground fighting from KungFu art's and if he take down you would know how to get out because you are also aground fighter
and may be you beat him also on the ground

see above about your ground knowledge vs. his. Also, these days, all mma guys are cross training in a striking style, hence the term MIXED martial arts...

[rogue]

Pain compliance is the wrong answer to any question. Wrong, if the question was how to get Rogue to part with some of his cash it's the right answer. And I have a numbered CDT certificate to prove it.

[Unmatchable]

you guys all better fear tai chi fast wrestling it is new, hot, and groovy.

[Gangsterfist]

Inflicting pain is the idea, or concept for grappling IMO. Whether it be joint locks, breaks, submission, etc. Now, pain tolerances will vary from person to person. One of my old kung fu brothers was pretty much immune to pressure points. They just didn't hurt him that much. However, if I were to bend his arm a way it didn't go, it would hurt him.

There are other aspects, like blood chokes and air chokes. A good blood choke will knock someone out in like 4 to 7 seconds because it cuts off blood flow to the brain. Of course that will also vary from person to person.

I know I am not the most proficient grappler by any means. However, I have held my own on the ground before. The kung fu I train mostly advocates stand up fighting. They don't really train ground fighting techniques. That is not to say that some of the applications can be changed to ground fighting. They just have to be changed. Some people cannot make that connection and try it the same way as standing up.

The fact is it doesn't take much to go to the ground. No matter how well trained you are, it can still happen. Take this scenerio for example.

You are out somewhere, lets say a bar or something like it. Someone starts a fight with you and there is no way you can get out of it with out physical contact. You strike first, or counter their strik and strike (it doesn't matter) and then start beating on them. Your stand up is good so your opponet is pretty much bested. When you go for the knock out hit your opponet grabs onto you as they are falling (which is natural human reaction) and takes them down with you. Now you are on the ground. Can you still win? If you know what to do, sure, and even then you may not.

I saw something like this happen a few years ago at a bar. This guy totally out boxed his opponet and landed one nasty cross that sent his opponet falling. When the guy fell he grabbed onto both arms and took him down. The guy who got knocked down, rolled over on top (to a mount position I suppose you could call it) and started pummeling the other guy's face. Ever been hit in the head while it was up against something and has no room to snap back from the strike? It hurts real bad because you head absorbs all the energy from that strike. They guy on top, who had previously been bested standing up, won the fight because when the guy went the ground he did not know what to do.

Since there is no exact science to fighting, and no fight will ever be the same you should train all aspects. Even enviromental ones. The guy could have grabbed a beer bottle or something and smashed over the other guy's head. You need to realize this stuff can happen.

I train wing chun, and wing chun pretty much says going to the ground is bad. I agree with it, I prefer to stay on my feet, but I realize that I will not always be able to control that. So, every now and again I will wrestle around with some people who know grappling. Learn out how it works and try my best to counter it when I get taken down. Sometimes I can escape, other times I get owned. Thats just how it goes.

[MAX]

SevenStar
you say

see above about your ground knowledge vs. his. Also, these days, all mma guys are cross training in a striking style, hence the term MIXED martial arts...

then what is the benefit's of the san shue chin na e-chuan and athers are they useless??

please give me your point more clear so i can understand:D

[Merryprankster]

Inflicting pain is the idea, or concept for grappling IMO.

Wrong.

Control is the general CONCEPT for grappling.

For purposes of personal combat, incapacitation through that concept is the goal.

Joint locks are designed to BREAK the limb in question, causing reduced function and incapacitation. An opponent with a broken arm is a less dangerous opponent, or possibly incapacitated. An opponent with a broken leg is an ineffective opponent. An opponent who has passed out because of a choke is an ineffective opponent.

Because it is inconvenient to do such things to your training partners, we tap and release the lock prior to damage.

Pain and discomfort are side-effects, not the goal itself. DAMAGE is the goal.

Moves done for the purpose of causing pain are always the wrong answer. Moves done that incidentally cause pain because they are causing damage are the right answer.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by MAX
if i have ground fighting and grabling and breaking bones on the ground in KungFu... why would i go to BJJ school to learn ground fighting

Because there's no such thing as "having a technique." Your chinese system can have the finest ground fighting in the world in theory, but if you're not actually rolling around on the ground training it, it doesn't do you any good at all.

Why you might want to go to a BJJ school (or some other school that regularly rolls on the ground) is to get in that actual training time on the ground. If you really do have ground submissions from your chinese style, BJJ schools in particular will generally have no problem at all with you working them into your ground game during BJJ training.


Originally posted by Gansterfist
Inflicting pain is the idea, or concept for grappling IMO.

This has already been addressed, and it's trite, but - people in various states of shock (which tends to include all parties of a self-defense scenario) can be extremely resistant to pain.

Moreover, relying on pain is a "second-order" goal - you're hoping to inflict pain, which, in turn, you hope will defeat your assailant. You want "first-order" goals - you don't want some intermediary goal in between you and defeating your assailant; you want to defeat him directly and immediately.

I would add further more that "inflicting pain" isn't a very useful strategy to begin with. Is someone in overwhelming pain essentially defeated? Yes. Is someone who has been elbowed repeatedly in the cerebellum essentially defeated? Yes. These are the same sorts of questions - being, in themselves, quite useless. The question isn't whether or not elbowing someone in the cerebellum is useful, the question is how do I go about reliably elbowing my assailant in the cerebellum? The same thing goes for pain. The real issue isn't whether or not hurting your assailant is useful, it's how do you go about reliably hurting your assailant?

This is the important question. In grappling (and, I would argue, all fighting) one major answer to that question is - by maintaining superiority of position, balance, and posture. In other words, control.

If you have control, then you are free to reliably inflict pain, elbow the cerebellum, or do anything else. It's that control that you have to be worried about. If you don't have that control, then you're hoping you can inflict that pain on him quicker than he can inflict it on you. It's a gamble. And you want to gamble as little as possible when your life and well-being, or those of your loved ones, are the stakes.

Another issue with pain is that it's not an "instant stop." This is more easily understood in fencing (which I think is generally a particularly clear paradigm for understanding some aspects of martial engagements). A primary problem in duels were double-hits: you manage to impale your assailant on the end of your epee, but he's done the same to you. The success of your thrust here is little comfort in this circumstance. So in a duel you don't just want to hit the other guy, you want to hit him while not getting hit youself. The same goes for empty-hands. If I blindly swing a hook at your head at the same time you're doing the same (and if you're fighting a guy, you can bet he's gonna be doing something that's bad for you at any given moment), then we're both gonna get popped. And then I only "win" if I'm bigger, faster, and can take more punishment than you. Again, this isn't a gamble we want to take, right? The same goes for pain. Even if I do somehow manage to give you a scary dose of pain, your body's inertia isn't going to vanish, and whatever you were in the process of doing to me is still going to happen (especially since I'm all busy inflicting pain on you and so am less likely to have a decent guard ready).

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Fei jiao
If I'm better at Kung Fu than he is at Jiu-Jitsu, I'm not going on the ground.

It's far, far easier to close with someone than it is to maintain distance, this is the main issue at play here. So you would have to be far, far better than someone to maintain distance when they are trying to close.

If your Kung Fu training focuses on distance fighting, this is a serious concern when facing a Jiu-Jitsu stylist who is focusing on closing.

[MAX]

Christopher M you say:


Because there's no such thing as "having a technique." Your chinese system can have the finest ground fighting in the world in theory, but if you're not actually rolling around on the ground training it, it doesn't do you any good at all.

that's right if i dont train it:D
but if iam actually training on rolling on the ground fighting like them wouldent be good

SevenStar you say:
-----------------------------------
go train with a bjj guy, and all will be revealed...

seriously, think about it...you train kung fu, right? so you are training strikes, kicks, weapons, forms, some grappling, etc...

now you have a bjj guy who spends the same amount of time as you or more, doint nothing except grappling...


1. Do you think your ground fighting would compare to his?

2. He knows the grappler's mind, so he can definitely help you to stay on your feet while fighting a grappler.

like we said, of course you don't NEED to cross train, but it can only help.
-------------------------------------------------
my friend what you said is true but if iknow that kungfu is less than any game why then iam playing it :confused: ..then i go for athers to learn from them :confused:

your Q1
nop his groud fighting is beter but ihave many options in fighting then he have

your Q2
also true but it dosent mean that chin na -san shue -e-chuan are useles because he is training just on grabling so these art's that are specialized in ground fighting cant do any thing or at least stop him from taken down:confused:

i want to ask you Question the real kungfu fighter how many hours dose he spend every day training and learning etc etc

[Ray Pina]

That's why I said, "at least 20%".

My suggestion was for Kung Fu schools to start paying attention to this and spending at least some time on it. This way I don't have to go into a 5 minute explanation on how what I'm studying is different than the "kung fu" they're thinking about.

We train ground fighting at my school. We also get visitors who specialise in ground fighting and like to compare ... we are comfortable fighting. Stand up, ground, doesn't matter.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MAX

your Q1
nop his groud fighting is beter but ihave many options in fighting then he have

yeah, but those options aren't helping you much from the ground.

your Q2
also true but it dosent mean that chin na -san shue -e-chuan are useles because he is training just on grabling so these art's that are specialized in ground fighting cant do any thing or at least stop him from taken down:confused:

Are they useless? no - anything is better than nothing, in many cases. but what better way to learn to stop a takedown artist than to train with one?

i want to ask you Question the real kungfu fighter how many hours dose he spend every day training and learning etc etc

that question can't really be answered...what constitutes a REAL kung fu fighter?

the hours a day he spends are split, regardless. if a grappler and a real kung fu artis are training 3 hours per day for example, the grappler will do grappling oriented training for 3 straight hours. the cma guy may do forms, stancework, wtrikes, kicks, iron palm... he's more segmented, as he has a broader spectrum he is trying to train. So, if you are asking that question as a comparison of time the cma guy may spend grappling, then it has no relevance...

[Ironmantis]

From what I have seen in Kung fu, white crane has some ground techniques, Black Tiger does and so does Lohan fist. The one that seems to stand out the post (actually two) are Monkey style, and drunken boxing. With Drunken system - Li Ti Qui and Chako Chu are the two forms on the drunken system that have a lot more of the ground techniques than the others.

Having said that ......

..... please folks help me out on this ......

You can take any "standing joint lock" and use it (for the most part) on the ground. For instance - in Eagle claw - an elbo seize om point SJ11 or Heart6 or Heart7 can easily be applied to an opponent that has been taken to the ground with a leg scissor to break and elbow or wrist.

... or ....

How about something mnor drastic - but quicker than an elbow break? What about stricking RN22 or ST9 when you have taken your opponent down with an iron broom sweep, tiger tail or leg scissor or an arm scissor?

In my opinion (and only my opinion - not talking about right or wrong), there are many combinations that can be put together to "create" and opportunity for an arm or leg break in a standing or ground situation.

Holla' back at me with your thoughts .....

Peace.

Iron Mantis