what is the reason?

[Phenix]

What is the reason one has fear when the opponent is strong and fast?
and
what to do about it?


You all fighters out there, care to share?

[Ernie]

good question

i don't have fear , i face guys like this often
i have respect for there abilites

if he is faster then me , i control distance and make his speed less of an issue = good footwork and timing

if he is stronger them me i don't stay in one place long enough for his strentgh to build = good sensitivity , foot work and timing , understanding your own yielding point [ center ] and adding or subtracting to his force
finally control distance make him stretch to get you this will weaken him , work off then end of his power as it dissapates
or if your quicker shock him before he has time to use his strentgh


but in the end speed kills if he is just out right faster at me then i can react and he has all the other skills timing ,footwork, sensitivity
then i am going down no shame just got out gunned



the better question is how do you deal with this type of person if you never work off this type of person to gain experience under that type of pressure ?;)

[PaulH]

When dealing with the unknown factors that one can't control, it is normal to have fear. The good news is it does not last long!
Great insightful comments from you, Ernie! =)

"Now, some of you boys, I know, are wondering whether or not you'll chicken out under fire. Don't worry about it. I can assure you that you will all do your duty. The Nazis are the enemy. Wade into them, spill their blood, shoot them in the belly. When you put your hand into a bunch of goo that a moment before was your best friend's face, you'll know what to do. Now there's another thing I want you to remember. I don't want to get any messages saying that we are holding our position. We're not holding anything. Let the Hun do that. We are advancing constantly and we're not interested in holding onto anything except the enemy. We're going to hold onto him by the nose and we're gonna kick him in the ass. We're going to kick the hell out of him all the time and we're gonna go through him like crap through a goose. Now, there's one thing that you men will be able to say when you get back home, and you may thank god for it. Thirty years from now when you're sitting around your fireside with your grandson on your knee, and he asks you: 'What did you do in the Great World War II?', you won't have to say: 'Well, I shoveled s--t in Louisiana.' All right, now you sons-of-*****es, you know how I feel and I will be proud to lead you wonderful guys into battle anytime, anywhere. That's all. - Patton"

[Ultimatewingchun]

"What is the reason one has fear when the opponent is strong and fast? And what to do about it?"

Well the reason for the fear is the thought that he might beat you so hard...kick you so hard...choke you so hard, etc...

That your own mother might not recognize you when he gets through with you!

But the keyword here is "thought"....and the visual images that those thoughts conjure up in the mind's eye.

You must neutralize/eliminate those thoughts.

And then SPAR...FIGHT...GRAPPLE...

TO WIN !

[old jong]

PaulH
You seem to have a fixation on Patton!...I prefer Capt.Kirk because he always beam down on the hostile planet with his team. He is not a talker who stay behind and dreams about being Alexander the great reincarnation or something!...;) ;) ;)

About fear?...It's not a factor when you have to defend yourself.You will do it ,using all skills and training you have + your survival instinct who is very strong even if you don't realise it.

Fear is more a factor when you fight for some other reasons than defense.

[PaulH]

Old Jong,

I love colorful characters. They make life so interesting! =)

[old jong]

He was colorful for sure!...;) What about General Montgomery?...He was a very colorful bloke also!....:D

[PaulH]

Good old breeds are dying. I like his duels with the desert Fox - Rommel. Details are everything! =)

[old jong]

What about the duel between the RAF and the Luftwafe in the sky of Britain?...That was ultimate fighting!...:cool:For a real cause!

[PaulH]

Truly their finest hour! The Brits when aroused are valiant fighters!

[chisauking]

Worrying too much about the consequence of losing.

Fear plays a major part in your fighting ability. Take the example of a huge body builder. Visually, they are very intimidating – that’s why they are put outside doors. But, they are one of the easiest people to beat. Sure, they will rip your head off – if they can catch you, but they are so slow and cumbersome, they are standing targets for fighters with a cool and collective mind.

Learn to control your emotional state of mind – very difficult to do. Focus not on what might happen if you get hit, but glee in the thought of the damage you will inflict with a precision eye jab, or a well executed stomp kick on the knee. Think positively; don’t let irrelevant thoughts play on your mind. However, the good news is, this sophisticated level of thinking comes free when you have reached a high level in your wing chun training, and that, my friend, is the solution to your problem.

Michael Yan Choi. 10th generation wing chun no nothing modern day just do it fighter

[Ultimatewingchun]

Michael Yan Choi (chisauking):

Nice post! Would add just one thing: This state of mind you refer to...once reaching a higher advanced level...applies to many martial arts practitioners - not just wing chun people.

[foolinthedeck]

what is the reason why you have fear?

fight or flight response, natural physiological reaction in the body and mental anxiety, reason why deer dont just stand around waiting for predators to eat them. same in humans, anything which the brain sees as a threat gives rise to fight or flight reaction. so its normal, dont worry... it does give advantages.

having said that, chi sau reduces it in a wing chun context. so lots of chi sau with stronger faster people gets you used to it, same way that lots of extreme sports get u used to it..

then its easier to relax into it and roll with it, but fear will always be there.. i see fear as part of ourselves, not something outside that happens to us, it is part of our reaction to events - you cant make a rock feel fear simply becuase it cant feel.

So accept fear, become one with it, spend all your days looking forward to it.

[Martin Foot]

foolinthedeck is correct.

Fear is the label we give to the experience of the sensations of the chemical reactions in the body when the integrity of the Self is threatened .
By repeatedly pushing ourselves in our training and placing our selves within increasingly challenging and stressful situations we may eventually become familiar and accustomed with these sensations and at this point we can get out the way and allow the process to run its course and assist our survival without overwhelming the body.

A useful thing to do is actually drop the label and negative connotations associated to the word "fear" and put it into a more progressive context by calling the experience "excitement"

[yuanfen]

Phoenix asks:What is the reason one has fear when the opponent is strong and fast?
---------------------------------------------------
Maybe they hear the voice of James Earl Jones (aka Darth Vader)in Conan?

"Now they will know what it is they are afraid of-now they will know why they fear the night" :-

[Phenix]

Great infor guys. Thanks.


Now, let say someone give you a pair of those bicycle glove and in those bicycle glove; in each glove there embeded two laser sharp razor blades on the knockers side and the knive hands side of the palm. You know it is going to cut a 0.5cm deep... with a simple light slide the blade on the muscular surface.

you are the same person with same fighting experience or in experience as before; the only different is, now, you are wearing this pair of glove.

What happen to the fear of when the opponent is strong and fast? and what to do about it? which you have before.

Do you still have the same fear? Is the opponent is still strong and fast? Does his strong and fast degraded? Does his strong and fast matter anymore?
What changes or not change with just that little garget?


Just a small garget, how many years of training is equal to waring this small garget?

[anerlich]

What changes or not change with just that little garget?

IANAL but the potential charges you may face are probably upped for common assault to assault with a deadly weapon and GBH. If the other guy died, wearing such golves would indicate premeditation and they might be talking murder.

You been watching X Men 2 or something?

I guess you could just ask a ninjutsu practitioner. They have those combo grappling hook/claw things they use for climbing up the sides of buildings, catching katanas when they're too far away to use their teeth, etc.

[Phenix]

Strange that there is not much response from the Fighters with experience.


BTW.
Those are just hypotetical situation of what a condition change will affect the fear and the fighting skill.

Nothing to do with asult with deadly weapons.

[Phenix]

Strange that there is not much response from the Fighters with experience.


BTW.
Those are just hypotetical situation of what a condition change will affect the fear and the fighting skill.

Nothing to do with assult with deadly weapons. Please do not get me wrong.

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by Martin Foot
...
A useful thing to do is actually drop the label and negative connotations associated to the word "fear" and put it into a more progressive context by calling the experience "excitement"

The norepineprene (adrenaline) response is a potentially far more addictive process than any external drug's effects a chemist has yet to formulate. Luckily, mother nature has equipped her children with quite a few coping mechanisms to deal with norepinephrene.

Fear and excitement are two separate and distinct emotions both biologically and intellectually. They each serve quite different purposes within ourselves as human beings. Do not let the similarities of the biological reactions within the human body confuse what the nature of each is supposed to mean.

Don't try to embrace or ignore. Don't try to control or lose control. Just try to observe, experience, learn, and understand - whether the emotion is fear and/or excitement, love and/or indifference, hate and/or pity, and/or any of the countless range of emotions. It's what makes us human.

I cannot speak for anyone else. But I, for one, do not want to be less than human.

[foolinthedeck]

too many things to say!

tom kagan says

Fear and excitement are two separate and distinct emotions both biologically and intellectually. They each serve quite different purposes within ourselves as human beings. Do not let the similarities of the biological reactions within the human body confuse what the nature of each is supposed to mean.

1. how can these emotions have differences in biology? emotions dont have a biology - otherwise they wouldnt be emotions. the physiological response is to the emotion its not the same thing as it.

2. if the physiological or biological natures of fear and excitement are different as you say would you care to let us know in what ways they differ? what makes the response of the body different in each case? IMO, they are the same, they have the same response.. again its just a matter of semantics.

phenix says

in each glove

the razor blades are in the inside???? of course i'm going to be afraid!! i wouldnt put the **** things on let alone fight someone with them on!!

also,
the black guy in conan was the same actor who did dath vader???? cant believe i didnt know that!!!!

[reneritchie]

Do you mean attribute speed and/or strength or technical speed and/or strength?

If attribute speed and/or strength, you can slow them down and weaken them through positioning, pressure, etc. (jam their limbs, reduce their leverage, etc.)

If they are technically faster and more powerful (they are positioning, angling, etc. to reduce distance and mechnically aligning themselves to increase force), then you need to cheat (or as Gene Labell would say--Cheat anyway!)

Fear is healthy if channelled in a way that improves your performance. If it paralyzes you, its not healthy. Training in a way that induces stress is a good way to learn to manage your instincts.

[Tom Kagan]

I fear there might be a misunderstanding ... or is it excitement? Ho hum. Perhaps, as you suggest, it's just a matter of semantics? ;)

When I read the word 'excitement', I understood the emotion of 'joy'. It is possible that your reading of the word gave rise to a perfectly correct additional meaning: 'The activity produced in an organ, tissue, or part, such as a nerve cell, as a result of stimulation.'


If read as 'joy': The emotions of joy and fear are like night and day. Though they both produce a similar physiological stimulus-response in the body, 'joy' affects the centers in the brain for 'approach' (curiosity), whereas a 'fear' affects the centers in the brain for 'avoidance' (aversion).

If a person's reaction to an avoidance stimulus is one of attraction (or vice versa), that's a subject well beyond the scope of anything I wish to discuss regarding potential manifestation of physcotic behavior.

If read as '...stimulation': Then 'excitement' is not an emotion at all but a possible result of experiencing an emotion. In this instance, there is a definite cause-effect dynamic. The effect of excitement can be shaped, to a certain extent, with training. However, just because the effects on the body are similar within a group of different stimuli does not in any way, shape, or form imply that there is any correlation between the stimulus producing a similar effect. An absurd example: a fear response in the body can sometimes mimic a heart attack or a stroke. No one could reasonably claim those similarities would be just a semantic difference.

If a person has the ability to completely disassociate this cause-effect link within themselves, that is yet another subject well beyond the scope of anything I wish to discuss regarding the potential manifestation of sociopathic behavior.

Contrary to your claim, emotions most definitely have basis in the physiological responses of the body in addition to what I referred to before as its 'intellectual' basis (which I will now re-word as 'psychological' basis in order to clarify). This should not be open to a reasonable discussion. Over a century of medical research exists to support this consensus. (The medical specialty of psychiatry can be thought of from a certain perspective as a fusion of psychology, neurology, and endocrinology.) Manipulating the level of just one hormone in the body (e.g.: the Thyroid hormone 'T3') can cause a person to run the emotional gambit from depression to mania.

Psychology is not the only way to shape the effects of emotional stimulus on the body. Physiological factors hold equal importance, if not greater importance to the athlete, in many cases. Diet, sleep, stress, et. al. are just a few of the ways a person can directly and indirectly affect emotions and also the extent of the physiological response stemming from emotions.


Anyway, at the risk of going further out on a tangent, the reason why I posted was because it was suggested that 'fear' should be embraced to the point where a person cannot distinguish it from excitement - either as 'joy' or by lumping it in with its effects on the body which other emotions (and other types of stimuli) share similar characteristics.

I felt sufficiently compelled by this subject to offer an alternate viewpoint. Regardless of which semantic and/or syntactic distinction the word 'excitement' falls under when a person reads the word, I don't share your view. I try to equate 'fear' with fear - nothing else! I don't control it, it does not control me.

I certainly do not welcome fear into my life. But I absolutely need to have it around, on occasion here and there, to keep me out of trouble - once in a while, anyway. :cool:

[Martin Foot]

Originally posted by Tom Kagan
“Don't try to embrace or ignore. Don't try to control or lose control. Just try to observe, experience, learn, and understand - whether the emotion is fear and/or excitement, love and/or indifference, hate and/or pity, and/or any of the countless range of emotions. It's what makes us human. “

Trying to observe the emotion is a form of control Tom.

Originally posted by Tom Kagan
“When I read the word 'excitement', I understood the emotion of 'joy'. It is possible that your reading of the word gave rise to a perfectly correct additional meaning: 'The activity produced in an organ, tissue, or part, such as a nerve cell, as a result of stimulation.'”

The oxford English dictionary’s definition of excitement is “rouse the emotion”

Originally posted by Tom Kagan
I felt sufficiently compelled by this subject to offer an alternate viewpoint. Regardless of which semantic and/or syntactic distinction the word 'excitement' falls under when a person reads the word, I don't share your view. I try to equate 'fear' with fear - nothing else! I don't control it, it does not control me.

As we can see the word excitement is a general non specific term for any emotional stimulation not specific to joy or fear.
Use it if it is useful to you, disregard it if it is not, base your evaluation on your experience rather than on what you read in a text book.
No Big deal

[Tom Kagan]

The irony of quoting from a dictionary and yet also mentioning that one should "base your evaluation on your experience rather than on what you read in a text book" is not lost on me. :D


Experience with the unabridged Oxford English Dictionary tells me that it is highly unlikely that three words is sufficient for it to cover just the etymology of a single entry.

Experience with the usage of a dictionary as a reference source tells me that the full textbook definition of a word is found by examining all the denotations of a word, plus the word's roots, derivations, synonyms, and even cross referencing to other dictionaries.

Experience using words in many relevant conversations tells me that the word 'excitement', within a context that indicates emotion but is not otherwise specific, has a general connotation associated with happiness (at a minimum, to me it does).

Experience with actually being excited repeatedly in an extremely wide variety of situations in my life tells me that where the word 'excitement' is used within a more specific emotional context, its connotation typically refers to the emotional range including (but not limited to) joy, rage, jealousy, etc. (Interestingly, these emotions are all classic textbook emotions based in the 'approach' response centers of the brain, whereas the emotion of fear incites an 'avoidance' response.)


Whew! Sorry about that. I become full of excitement when a subject comes up that can be and actually is reasonably debated in an open forum on the Internet. (Or, am I full of fear? Nah. :) ) Within this thread, we have a range of intelligent posts as to what to do about fear (embrace it, conquer it, suppress it, eliminate it, welcome it, etc.). However, one of the intelligent posts was to try to equate fear and/or its response with other emotions and/or responses which do not share the same purpose. Because my views were not previously presented within any of the other posts, I felt compelled to write a bit about fear from my own perspective as to what to do about it.

Anyway, interesting thread and excellent dialogue.


Our disagreement over whether observation of a phenomena such as emotion is an attempt to gain control we can leave for another day. :)

[AmanuJRY]

If faced with any opponent, I would experience fear, even if (for some unknown reason) I am the agressor. I believe this is a natural response for all. The Idea that someone doesn't experience this emotion is absurd (suppress it maybe).

I interpet the original question as experienceing intimidation which is a product of fear that can be controlled and even eliminated by self confidence, confidence in your abilities and courage.

[Martin Foot]

Hi Tom

Tom Says
“The irony of quoting from a dictionary and yet also mentioning that one should "base your evaluation on your experience rather than on what you read in a text book" is not lost on me. “
No irony intended, I was attempting to communicate with you in a context you would understand

Tom Says
“Experience with the unabridged Oxford English Dictionary tells me that it is highly unlikely that three words is sufficient for it to cover just the etymology of a single entry.”
Experience with the usage of a dictionary as a reference source tells me that the full textbook definition of a word is found by examining all the denotations of a word, plus the word's roots, derivations, synonyms, and even cross referencing to other dictionaries.”

I agree, however the entry I chose is the most appropriate for the meaning I intended.

Tom Says
”Experience using words in many relevant conversations tells me that the word 'excitement', within a context that indicates emotion but is not otherwise specific, has a general connotation associated with happiness (at a minimum, to me it does).

An inappropriate assumption based on the generalisation

”Experience with actually being excited repeatedly in an extremely wide variety of situations in my life tells me that where the word 'excitement' is used within a more specific emotional context, its connotation typically refers to the emotional range including (but not limited to) joy, rage, jealousy, etc. (Interestingly, these emotions are all classic textbook emotions based in the 'approach' response centers of the brain, whereas the emotion of fear incites an 'avoidance' response.)”

Not necessarily, in reality Fear can also be the trigger for rage as a survival response.
Anger and anxiety are the polarities of fear, & depending how an individual has been previously successful toward their survival they will tend to react to a threat to their integrity with what is deemed to be a historically successful pattern for the individual.

Either way these responses may well be problematic for an individual in many areas of their life

My suggestion is to change (reframe) the label that one uses for the experience of fear to gain distance from the negative cultural and personal associations that the word fear can be loaded with, rather than take away the resources and benefits that the actual reality of the experience brings

Tom Says
”Whew! Sorry about that. I become full of excitement when a subject comes up that can be and actually is reasonably debated in an open forum on the Internet. (Or, am I full of fear? Nah. ) Within this thread, we have a range of intelligent posts as to what to do about fear (embrace it, conquer it, suppress it, eliminate it, welcome it, etc.). However, one of the intelligent posts was to try to equate fear and/or its response with other emotions and/or responses which do not share the same purpose. Because my views were not previously presented within any of the other posts, I felt compelled to write a bit about fear from my own perspective as to what to do about it.

Anyway, interesting thread and excellent dialogue.”


"Our disagreement over whether observation of a phenomena such as emotion is an attempt to gain control we can leave for another day."

Thanks Tom, I'll look forward to that thread :)

Oh I also forgot to mention that in my opinion the fact we have emotions does not make us human but in fact affirms our animal status, the fact we can take the opportunity to objectively manage and evolve our emotions is what makes us human

[foolinthedeck]

lololol.
you took excitement to mean joy in the context of this thread?
look, joy could be the first name of a certain mr yuanfen but i'm not going to be so dull as to assume thats what you were refering too because of the context of the thread.

so congratulations on the total overkill of conversation you precipitated by taking excitement to mean joy. lol

tom says:
Contrary to your claim, emotions most definitely have basis in the physiological responses of the body in addition to what I referred to before as its 'intellectual' basis (which I will now re-word as 'psychological' basis in order to clarify).

when i said:
emotions dont have a biology - otherwise they wouldnt be emotions. the physiological response is to the emotion its not the same thing as it.

so i didnt say that emotions have no basis in the physiological reponses... lol, read it.., but good job re wording not just what you said but also what i said, keep doing that and you can win any argument.

tom also said:
I try to equate 'fear' with fear - nothing else!

to if you have a panic attack - which in your opinion is not fear... then what is it? and how is it not going to affect you in adverse way?

anyway, i say too much, you said enough for me

were both wrong anyway.
i hope you can see the funny side of why!

[yuanfen]

fears, excitement, etc...and other English nouns when not relationally and contextually described can be problematic in communication.

Even in the dream state some viewing channels can be exciting!

And some think that Phoenix gets obscure...

Onward thru the fog...

the joy of wingchun