Spinning long weapons...what is the point?

[Fu-Pow]

Haha...no pun intended in the title....

I've noticed that most long weapons forms have a two handed spinning motion at some point in the form.

In CLF it is known as Gau Fah or "Turning Flower."

What is type of movement for? It seems like as soon as the weapon hit something that it would stop the motion and be rather ineffective.

Any ideas?
:confused:

[Judge Pen]

Clear space while you change directions? If someone turned the flower with a spear or a kwandao I'd move back; maybe that's all they need to reset.

[MasterKiller]

I find it is good to clear some space, as most people tend to back-step when you are spinning a long weapon fast while advancing toward them.

Heavier weapons, like a Kwan Dao or Monk Spade, would probably break a lighter weapon (staff, spear) using this motion.

Lighter weapons can deliver a solid hit, though they would probably break if blocked by a more sturdy weapon during this motion.

I was almost knocked out by a waxwood staff once when my opponent was performing his manuever and turned it into an over-head strike.

The idea is that if the weapon is always moving, your opponent has to work harder to find an opening.

[Golden Arms]

Gau Fah and reverse Gau Fah allow you to hit someone, then reverse and hit them again, with either end..try it on someone if you have classmates that will play with ya..it will start to make sense..as its hard to defend against a double ended weapon doing that motion. Also can be used to hook inside the arms or under legs to trap or trip for starters..best to play with it yourself, sinceyou will find lots more than I can tell you here.

[Gangsterfist]

Perhaps its also good training?

Ever hear this?

Train the maximum full range of motion, to develope short range, explosive power.

[norther practitioner]

I just do it 'cause it looks cool.


Hows that.:D

[ShaolinTiger00]

Why do I have to always be the voice of reality?

FP, Why are you bothering to question the techniques of weapons that haven't been used in actual military combat for a few hundred years?

It's just a silly form, so it may as well look cool.

;)

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Why do I have to always be the voice of reality?

FP, Why are you bothering to question the techniques of weapons that haven't been used in actual military combat for a few hundred years?

It's just a silly form, so it may as well look cool.

;) I'm pretty sure that, say, in the last 20 years, plenty of people have been attacked and/or killed with things like shovels, axes, and pool cues. The likelihood of attack is another story; but then again, the likelihood of me being attacked by a state-champion wrestler is probably just as remote.

At any rate, weapons training breaks the monotony of hitting a heavy bag sometimes. And it looks cool. And it's good exercise. So what's your beef with people discussing the techniques of Chinese weapons on a Chinese MA forum? It's only a "silly form" if you never spar with it. If you do spar with Chinese weapons, then it's a pretty good idea to understand why you do something.

[KC Elbows]

Don't forget chains, strangulation tools in general, knives, large knives(the average bowie pretty much qualifies as a short sword), hammers, etc.

Stalled out on the road about a year and a half ago, was calling for help from a rest area, freak started coming up to me. I had knives out, he went away. I'm not sure dropping into the guard would have the same effect.

In otherwords, hello, my name is KC, and I'm a tool using creature.

[KC Elbows]

Here's common items around me that I can use as weapons and periodically am reminded of such(work construction, some jobs run late, some are in bad areas, so making it clear you are a ******* makes your life easier):

-prybar(can pretty much use broadsword techs with)
-hammer(same deal, good paired with prybar)
-screwdriver(not great, but better than nothing, I certainly wouldn't want stabbed with one)
-knives(simple enough)


Those are the ones I keep close to me, plus a gun in particularly bad areas(though I prefer to simply turn such jobs away). Only an imbecile would choose empty hand, modern or ancient, in situations where life and limb is on the line.

I'm pretty sure any of the gracies would not fare well from a tire iron on the noggin. Tire iron is a lot higher percentage than empty hand, and broadsword techs can easily be used(heavy ended weapon used for smashing through guards/armor).

As for circles, if you hit and it interrupts the flow, you hit, all is well, shift to next attack. It's when the opponent interrupts you that there is a problem.

But I agree, it's a tactic that buys you distance, though I recommend practicing circles occassionally with a bit of power at the end, ending with a downward chop, perhaps, so you know how to interrupt into a finishing move.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I'm pretty sure that, say, in the last 20 years, plenty of people have been attacked and/or killed with things like shovels, axes, and pool cues.

The vast majority of them killed by a person with no martial training at all.

the likelihood of me being attacked by a state-champion wrestler is probably just as remote.

Could you make a poorer argument? The truth about humans beings (and somehting that so many of the tma people just can't understand yet) is that grappling and getting pulled down to the ground "just happens" the guy doesn't have to be a state champ to tackle you. in fact it's pretty likely that the forward pressure of your kung fu will pressure you towards him and combine with his striking or grabbing to bring you both down.

How many times do you need to be shown this truth to understand it?


At any rate, weapons training breaks the monotony of hitting a heavy bag sometimes. And it looks cool. And it's good exercise. So what's your beef with people discussing the techniques of Chinese weapons on a Chinese MA forum?

Lol @ your irrational snapping!

I think weapons are cool! I know more than a dozen weapons forms. I just think it's silly to question a flashy technique when your practicing with an antique weapon.

realistic weapon sparring? go play paintball tell me how your sword technique does. Go to a dog brothers gathering. Tell me how effective your skills derived from forms are. this is no different from unarmed combat.

Are there techniques in weapons forms that are good? yeah, I think so. but I just think it's important to keep a realistic, healthy attitide toward what you're doing.

[red5angel]

the forward pressure of your kung fu will pressure you towards him and combine with his striking or grabbing to bring you both down.

total BS. I've seen more fights that never went to the gorund then have. MK has a point here, your more likely to get attacked by someone wielding something unconventional a stick a bat a chain, then you are to have to fight a martial artist who is at a high skill level.

You're right, be realistic about it, most of us train them because their fun and they get chicks, just don't bring tha grappling BS into it. Believe it or not, non grappling martial arts work ok on the street ;)

[ShaolinTiger00]

total BS. I've seen more fights that never went to the gorund then have.

:rolleyes:

INSTRUCTOR'S CORNER:
By : Mark S. Dunston, Calibre Press Street Survival Seminar Instructor

Dr. Darrell L. Ross, Ph.D. CJ Professor, East Carolina University/Calibre Press Litigation Consultant

"Recently, the authors, along with Calibre Press and PPCT Management Systems, embarked on a research project designed to determine the frequency with which police officers are forced to the ground by attackers."

"During the research project, over 1,400 cases were measured based on information from officers attending the Calibre Press Street Survival Seminar throughout the United States."

"Of those attempts, it was reported that 60 percent of attackers were successful in taking the officer to the ground."

840 cops (with law enforcement authority, guns! and weapons who stop crime & encounter criminals everyday) are being taken down to the ground, but you don't think most sloppy, drunken brawls or sucker punch attacks don't end up there?... interesting...



but that's not even the real point. My point is that usually, you go to the ground in a street fight because you have no choice in the matter, not because a skilled opponent planned it.


and just so that I'm not a complete *******.

my favorite "spinning" long weapon is without a doubt the Jow Ga Seung Tau Gwan "double ended staff" form, which truly shows a person how to use a staff to it's full effect. strikes from just about every angle and includes several spear like strikes as well as a braced "set spear" - as you would brace the weapon against a charging animal. - which I've also used with the tiger fork.

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


:rolleyes:

INSTRUCTOR'S CORNER:
By : Mark S. Dunston, Calibre Press Street Survival Seminar Instructor

Dr. Darrell L. Ross, Ph.D. CJ Professor, East Carolina University/Calibre Press Litigation Consultant

"Recently, the authors, along with Calibre Press and PPCT Management Systems, embarked on a research project designed to determine the frequency with which police officers are forced to the ground by attackers."

"During the research project, over 1,400 cases were measured based on information from officers attending the Calibre Press Street Survival Seminar throughout the United States."

"Of those attempts, it was reported that 60 percent of attackers were successful in taking the officer to the ground."

840 cops (with law enforcement authority, guns! and weapons who stop crime & encounter criminals everyday) are being taken down to the ground, but you don't think most sloppy, drunken brawls or sucker punch attacks don't end up there?... interesting...



but that's not even the real point. My point is that usually, you go to the ground in a street fight because you have no choice in the matter, not because a skilled opponent planned it.


Cops need to restrain people, and thus get tied up with people. The type of physical struggle cops get into is entirely different than other groups. Which pretty much makes that study none too reliable for what you're using it for, as has already been pointed out here and on other forums, including mma based ones. Cops have to handcuff people, which is an entirely different approach to beating the crap out of them.

As for the dog brothers, I respect them, but they don't use a single move that couldn't be found in a form, and thus are as "forms derived" as anyone else. It's about the training, and mk already said weapons sparring was an important point, even if you didn't read his post closely enough.:D

[KC Elbows]

Not to mention that the Jow Ga Seung Tau Gwan "double ended staff" is a puzzy weapon.

[NorthernShaolin]

Spinning in weapon in sets , especially long ones, demonstrates to the observer that you have full control of the weapon. Therefore the faster one spins the weapon, short or long, the more control of the weapon.

[KC Elbows]

I think he's looking for the tactical purpose. I'd say covering a manuever, myself, but that's just me.

[red5angel]

Still BS there ST. Cops are cops. Like KC said they get tangled up all the time cause they have to. I work a seasonal job where I often have to do the very same thing, cuffs and all, and generaly the reason we have to go to the gorund is because it's easier for more of us to subdue a person that way.

not only taht but I don't agree with this statement -


My point is that usually, you go to the ground in a street fight because you have no choice in the matter, not because a skilled opponent planned it.

thats A - counter to what cops experience anyway, typically their oppnents are trying to pull them to the ground, or they go to the ground with their opponents because when you have to hang on to someone, and cops almost always do, they often will hit the ground as they try to get away, either accidentelly or almost as often on purpose.

So you've got a 60% "grounding" rate in a group of people that are forced to hold on to their opponents in an attempt to restrain them. In a street fight, your opponent isn't always trying to restrain you, but kick the crap out of you, which have two very different approaches.

so bzzzzt wrong answer! Your attempt to bring this conversation to the ground has not worked! Proving once again that a fight does not always go to the ground!

[David Jamieson]

Tie a stone to a rope.

spin it.

let it hit something.

if you have learned the basics of handling a weapon, it shouldn't be shocked out of your hands when it makes contact with something regardless of when or how teh strike is made.

having said that, spinning the weapon is a means of clearing space, changing hands, bring both hands to position on the weapon, etc etc.

yes, in some forms, in some schools, it is just to look fancy, and if you understand and can observe, it is readily apparent which spins are just for fancy and which have purpose to the form.

Although it is frustrating sometimes when one doesn't have an answer to a question or can't find one, it shouldn't be precluded with a negative assessment towards the question or presumed answer.

cheers

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
[B]The vast majority of them killed by a person with no martial training at all. So. What does that prove? The vast majority of people killed since the beginning of time were killed by untrained people.


realistic weapon sparring? go play paintball tell me how your sword technique does. Go to a dog brothers gathering. Tell me how effective your skills derived from forms are. this is no different from unarmed combat. Funny, I don't remember you trolling AP on his fencing technique threads. I have played paint ball. It's fun as hell. Dog brothers looks cool, too. We spar with weapons, but not that hard. We use jump ropes for chains, etc. Dog Bros. are nasty bastads.


Are there techniques in weapons forms that are good? yeah, I think so. but I just think it's important to keep a realistic, healthy attitide toward what you're doing. Agreed. So, what's you beef again with us discussing CMA weapon techniques in a realistic manner? That time of the month? They make Midol for that.

[Tak]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
Here's common items around me that I can use as weapons and periodically am reminded of such(work construction, some jobs run late, some are in bad areas, so making it clear you are a ******* makes your life easier):

-prybar(can pretty much use broadsword techs with)
-hammer(same deal, good paired with prybar)
-screwdriver(not great, but better than nothing, I certainly wouldn't want stabbed with one)
-knives(simple enough)

Hmm, how about for an IT worker:
-mouse (bludgeoning and strangulation!) great if you have a heavy trackball
-pen(cil)
-scissors
-hot coffee
-broken cd
-broken coffee mug
-chair

Not as heavy-duty as the construction worker's stuff, but then again, an office guy who attacks me will tend to be less heavy-duty than a construction worker anyway...

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by NorthernShaolin
Spinning in weapon in sets , especially long ones, demonstrates to the observer that you have full control of the weapon. Therefore the faster one spins the weapon, short or long, the more control of the weapon.

i was waiting for someone to post that. :D
like other said it can be used to scare away enemies, also blocking, and wrist flexibility.

[SifuAbel]

I find it funny how such minutia is given such importance.

Plum blossom is just one set of techniques in a given form. You see it everywhere in long weapons because they're all basically just staffs with a different doohickey at the end. Some dohickeys slice, some poke, some chop, some hook, some do it all.

The plum blossom techniques break down as functions of a circle. Each quarter of a turn is another block and strike technique. There are many combinations with either side of the staff within the circle. But again its just one thing. Why harp on something so trivial.

You can find a stick anywhere. Or carry one.

You can find a pointy stick anywhere. Viola, you have a spear.

I have a machette in my car. (I know, cuban with a machette, how original)
Viola, I have a sword.

A length of chain, a rope, a broom, any gardening tool..............


As for the dog brothers, they learn form for their stick fighting everyday. They learn diffent techniques, methods and sequences. That is a form. The form is just the shape of something. You can't escape it. Without form all you have is chaotic accidental techniques. Even learning how to make a fist is a form. Drills are forms, single techniques are forms. Basics are forms. A throw has a form.

The form of a ring is a circle. Without its form it wouldn't be a ring, it would be just a blob of gold.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Tak


Hmm, how about for an IT worker:
-mouse (bludgeoning and strangulation!) great if you have a heavy trackball
-pen(cil)
-scissors
-hot coffee
-broken cd
-broken coffee mug
-chair

Not as heavy-duty as the construction worker's stuff, but then again, an office guy who attacks me will tend to be less heavy-duty than a construction worker anyway...

Heh my work bench has the following:

-Screwdriver
-hemostats
-wire cutters
-dental picks
-tweasers
-soldering iron (thats actually in the cabinet)
-tons of floppys and CDs
-AC Adapters
-power cords
-cables (usb, parallel, scsi, etc)
-tons of cardboard boxes (cardboard cuts suck)
-wrenches
-dremmel tool
-tons of chemical cleaners that are ESD safe (and I am sure would blind a person)


I would say the IT worker has some make shift weapons available. Don't forget all the paper work (like word orders) and magazines laying around and books. Those could be used too.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by SifuAbel

The plum blossom techniques break down as functions of a circle. Each quarter of a turn is another block and strike technique. There are many combinations with either side of the staff within the circle. But again its just one thing. Why harp on something so trivial.



I'm surprised it took that long for someone to say it too.

Jeez.

To take sabre plum blossom movements as an example and break it down:

downward chop down ward from 2 o'clock---> parry anything on the whole left side as the blade comes up ---> downward chop from 10 o'clock --->repeat

Add foot work for a smooth transition to:

Upward slash ---> parry highline attack --->upward slash on the other side ----> etc.

At any point in the cycle you shoudl be able to change your angle or follow up slash. For example, on the upward slash, you could follow it with a horizontal slash without giving up momentum.

If you think it's purely because "it looks pretty" you should drop in on a Kali or escrima class sometimes and ask what the hell is sinawali for? They are more likely to give you an intellegent answer than your average gong fu teacher.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by omarthefish They are more likely to give you an intellegent answer than your average gong fu teacher.

...And you were doing so well until this bit of snappy dialoge.

[omarthefish]

lol.

Hey, and I'M a gong fu guy too.

Emphasise on the "more likely" part. Not denying the existence of awsome gong fu teachers. Just facing the reality.

Philipino/Indonesian (sp?) based arts like Kali and escrima tend to be more in the know when it comes to weapons. This is a comparitive statement about the average level of instruction available. Not an opinion about who is best or even where you are likely to find the very best teacher. But come on....you walk in to a dozen CMA schools and ask questions about weapons work and then do the same thing with a dozen escrima/silat/Kali schools and you know your going to get fewer CMA instructors who really understand all the weapons they teach.

:(

[Becca]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Why do I have to always be the voice of reality?

FP, Why are you bothering to question the techniques of weapons that haven't been used in actual military combat for a few hundred years?

It's just a silly form, so it may as well look cool.

;)
Have you ever been in the military or seen footage of Marines or Army bootcamp? The part where they are training with pugil sticks, 'cause they are safer than trying to teach beginners with the real thing (rifle with fixed bayonette)??? Look a little closer; it's basically the same technique used for lond weapons.

Most of my skill with the Bo didn't even come from training with one. It came from spinning flags, swords, rifles, anything I could get my hands on, in high school as part of the flag corp for the marching band... That is how I cought the atention of my first master, he saw that I could pick up anything, no mater how unballenced it was, and spin it well. Once you can controll an object, it takes only inclination to turn it into a weapon.

[MasterKiller]

Do you still have your flag-girl uniform?:o

[Becca]

Yes.:D

[Vash]

JOY!

[No_Know]

"I've noticed that most long weapons forms have a two handed spinning motion at some point in the form.

In CLF it is known as Gau Fah or "Turning Flower."

What is type of movement for? It seems like as soon as the weapon hit something that it would stop the motion and be rather ineffective.

Any ideas?"

Weapons that alternate sides the turn can exercise a deflect then strike.

Weapons that follow-through and continue in one-ish path are building~ momentum to knock. The momentum can slow but does not necessarily stop when it hits something if the end barely hits it. a staff spun fast enough can cot a quarter inch thick tree type thing, enough to cut flesh at least-ish. Whips can cut. the gardening tool weed whacker~ is a plastic cord spun fast it cuts grass and can dig. Also cuts some thicknesses of branches. Soft/flexible weapons can have these effects plus their weight can knock (out), at least bruise whenn spinning sufficiently and connecting sufficiently with whatever to affect skin.

The length can be altered like ropedart, and shot like a bullet or cannonn (though not likely as fast).

[Becca]

What is type of movement for? It seems like as soon as the weapon hit something that it would stop the motion and be rather ineffective.
It can also be usefull to redirect the momentum. For example, you are spinning a staff and some staff/body part gets caught up in it. You can redirect the momentum from your staff into a strike to what ever bodypart is in line at that moment. You could also redirect into another spin or other blocking move.