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old jong
05-23-2001, 02:39 AM
Another thing we hear about all the times by the "conceptual" specialists(are you one of them?)Is ranges!...We already talked about the "trapping" range.There is also the Kicking range and the grappling range! Do we really need to train in three different styles to perform well in all "ranges"?...I believe(IMO)that wing chun knows only one "range"...The fighting range!...What do you think?

C'est la vie!

Martial Joe
05-23-2001, 04:29 AM
I think what you think,in this matter...

rogue
05-23-2001, 05:07 AM
I agree Old Jong. There are two ranges, in range and out of range.

"conceptual" specialists, that's a good one! :D

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

Armin
05-23-2001, 09:23 AM
Hi Old Jong!

I think the "three or four distances"-concept is just a tool for beginners, to make them understand the different needs of different distances.

In fact the principles and movements are the same in all distances.


Armin.

kungfu cowboy
05-23-2001, 10:26 AM
While I do agree that there is too much preoccupation with ranges of fighting, I believe that there are styles that are based on principles that are most effective in a certain, ah..."distance from opponent". ;) Let's take wing chun for example. IMO, wing chun's unique way of generating striking power is dependent upon being rather close to the opponent.

Since the strikes do not use muscle power, and it is usually desired to not shift the shoulders (too much)from neutral, you must rely on physics to produce a powerful strike. Also affecting this are the other WC principles of guarding the centerline, relaxation, etc.

So how do you gain mechanical advantage here? By delivering your strikes from extreme close range, making up for the use of a "shorter" amount of arm length used, which when coupled with proper rooting (and a bunch of physics I won't embarrass myself with trying to explain)really packs a wallop! If you were to try using these priciples on a opponent at arms length from you, WC methods are not optimized.

jameswebsteruk
05-23-2001, 11:50 AM
I dont think that the moves you do are the same at longer range. If I try to pak an opponents left arm with my left at close range, I can control his right elbow with my pak-ing arm. If I am at long range, there is every chance he will hit me with his right, because I have no contact.

rogue
05-23-2001, 02:11 PM
You can always, well almost always, change the "range".

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

wingchunner
05-23-2001, 03:47 PM
I do think it is important to train at different 'ranges'. I have found that my students, especially if they didn't have previous martial arts training didn't know how to close the gap outside of the 'kicking' range. They tended to want to fight and were too greedy with their techniques which left them vulnerable and exposed sometimes, instead of relaxing and being in control of themselves and using proper technique.

I encourage my students to go to tournaments. I don't really care if they win or not, that's not the point. (There's too much politics anyway) The point is to see how they handle themselves in a somewhat more stressful situation. Then, they should analyze how they did...

Was I in control of myself? Did I stick with Wing Chun techniques or did I revert to boxing or a former styles methods? Did I stay rooted? Did the other person feel rooted or was I able to move them? If they got a strike in, did it penetrate or was it just a surface hit? Did I chase hands or focus on the opponent's center?

Obviously the more experienced students answer these questions better than the less experienced students. But, I believe the experience of the tournament is valuable.

Marty

Be true and loving.
http://wingchun.ereasons.net

jameswebsteruk
05-24-2001, 06:20 PM
I know what you mean about the tournaments, we are also encouraged to go, just for the practice. And if the judging is biased, or points valued over solid hits and structure, then at least you know as long as your teacher is happy, you have fought well.

kungfu cowboy
05-24-2001, 06:26 PM
Shouldn't wing chun rock at tournaments since it is a superior fighting method?

Watchman
05-24-2001, 07:00 PM
What kind of tournaments are you talking about? Point sparring?!

kungfu cowboy
05-25-2001, 04:50 AM
What kind are you?

Watchman
05-25-2001, 05:17 AM
I don't know........I'm confused. I think I will go hug my mook jong until I feel better. :confused: :cool:

rogue
05-25-2001, 06:15 AM
You are a sick man. :p

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

kungfu cowboy
05-25-2001, 06:24 AM
Andrew "Dice" Clay does wing chun? :confused:

nickle
05-25-2001, 01:21 PM
i saw something interesting on knifefighting.com

they were saying that usually in filipino knife arts there are 3 ranges, long medium and short, but in the AMOK! system this is regarded as one range with an elastic quality, sortof like WC, ie the contact range.

-specialization is for ants-

mun hung
05-25-2001, 02:15 PM
I don't really understand what is meant with all this close, medium and long range stuff. I always thought there were only 2 ranges. "Out of range" - not close enough to make any contact, or "in range" - close enough to engage thru strikes, traps, grabs and/or grappling. Either you're close enough to strike or you're not.

rogue
05-25-2001, 08:34 PM
But I can sell 4 video tapes on 4 fighting ranges to your one.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

mikey
05-25-2001, 10:09 PM
touche'!
if you make one tape showing the form or
technique,and another showing practical
application,you can double that 4 tape set!
I think Randy Williams has a fold out
encyclopedia of videos advertised in Kung Fu magazine. :)

kungfu cowboy
05-25-2001, 10:25 PM
$$$$$$$$!!!

kungfu cowboy
05-25-2001, 10:27 PM
Don't get me wrong, its fine to want to make money, but seperating what should be on one tape into many is not very ethical.

tiger_1
05-26-2001, 12:27 AM
my friends im mean wingchun is all fight traning but inside that combat have many fight and levels and onthers form im mean for intonjutsy haragei metamorfose in chi sao and onthers for complet fighter and kung fu man just friendly tiger_1 (can we see onthers lewel? can we see that pls ?can we see the pain and hard lewel ? ) :cool:

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