Real Cooperating Opponent vs Heavy Bag.

[Mr Punch]

Not wanting a rehash of TMA vs MMA, so let's keep this sensible.

Was thinking about one of my favourite kicks which is a downward stomp kick (dunno its technical/Chinese name) to the side of the knee. If it works, their leg's gonna give, not saying break, just give... but would say, if it's right there's a possibility of it breaking/being badly damaged.

Now you don't see these in the ring. Or at least, I've seen a lot of ring fights, and I don't remember having seen one. I'm pretty sure that they can be pretty effective. Why? Cos in sparring I've used them, tho not at full speed, just with good positioning and timing and just enough time for the opponent to see it coming and let his leg give, or concede a loss. And, I've used it to drop someone in sparring.

So if we're talkng about transferability to the ring, and agreeing that it's the way we train that counts, how do you train something like that effectively?

Two-person semi-resisting drill.

Heavy bag (can't see that working with this tech).

Full contact drill with padding (again, as a joint kick, can't see you getting the correct effect or being able to keep it dynamic with big pads strapped to the knees).

This is just one example, I'm sure there are others.

The only thing I can think of as working well is the mook (with shoes).

Any input?

[Nick]

A bag is for developing power, working with an opponent develops something different.

Also, the kick you refer to works best on the side of the knee or the front of the knee when it isn't bent. Many ring fighters use a 3/4 stance, knees bent, which is why it isn't used in the ring a lot.

Later...

[Mr Punch]

Sure the bag is for developing power, but with a downward strike/kick, it doesn't work so effectively IMHO.

That's why my money's on the mook for this tech so you can work that angle.

I don't agree that it works best on a staright leg, I think it works best on a weak bent leg, like one that's just gone down after a mistimed kick. Plus, although it takes more power, you can work it on a 3/4 stance.

However I was hoping to direct the question more towards other effective ways to train potentially useful techs, which aren't necessarily used so often in the ring.



And I'd never, oh no never ever want to go down the long dark alley that is 'too dangerous for the ring' but if it's too dangerous to train effectively at fiull power, is that not going to keep it out of the ring?

Oh ****, I just looked down that alley... OK, turn away from the dark side... :eek:

[Nick]

Oh, I forgot, there's no joint destruction allowed in most NHB competitions, so that's probably why you haven't seen it.

Also, I think it'd take a tredmendous amount of power to get someone's leg to give hitting it from the front while it's bent.

Later...

[Mr Punch]

Nah, you ain't gonna break someone's knee stamping downwards to the front of the knee.

We're talking at cross purposes...!

Originally posted by Mat
... which is a downward stomp kick ... to the side of the knee.

Nick
Also, I think it'd take a tredmendous amount of power to get someone's leg to give hitting it from the front while it's bent.

[SevenStar]

keep using them in sparring - maybe medium contact. The knee is kind of hard to damage when hit from the side. roundhouse kicks to the side of the knee are very legal in MT. The only person I've only seen hurt in practice from a kick to the side of the knee is me, and I currently have a strained meniscus. We were going hard though. I know the roundhouse is quite different from a front stomp though...maybe stomp just above the knee?

[omarthefish]

That kick is actually best practiced on a mook jong (wooden dummy) The only way your going to hurt someone with it is by pulling on their arm at the same time.

Also, I think it's actually more dangerous when kicking the joint from the inside --> out.

If you dont have a wooden dummy then treesare good for that sort of thing too.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by omarthefish
That kick is actually best practiced on a mook jong (wooden dummy) The only way your going to hurt someone with it is by pulling on their arm at the same time.

apparatus training is good, but I'm a firm believer in having live training to accompany it.

Also, I think it's actually more dangerous when kicking the joint from the inside --> out.

that's exactly how I got hit.

[omarthefish]

ouch!!!

I thank you in the name of science. :D

I wasn't about to try it out on sombody. I have just practiced it that way real light with a partner before and noticed how hard it is to roll with it. When you get hit from the outside, the leg tends to collapse and usually a worst case is that you get swept. But the other direction lead to the most awkward **** fall I've ever seen.

I guess you'd know better than I though...

[Royal Dragon]

Also, I think it'd take a tredmendous amount of power to get someone's leg to give hitting it from the front while it's bent.

Reply]
Agreed.

Question, in modern NHB comps, can you do a knee break from the side, with intent to collapse the knee to take balance, rather than break it? Or is any contact considred an intent to break?

[Nick]

It would probably be considered intent to break.

Later...

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Mat
Nah, you ain't gonna break someone's knee stamping downwards to the front of the knee.

We're talking at cross purposes...!

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mat
... which is a downward stomp kick ... to the side of the knee.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nick
Also, I think it'd take a tredmendous amount of power to get someone's leg to give hitting it from the front while it's bent.

:rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by SevenStar
keep using them in sparring - maybe medium contact. ...The only person I've only seen hurt in practice from a kick to the side of the knee is me, and I currently have a strained meniscus. We were going hard though. It doesn't matter that you're talking about a roundhouse not a stomp. I was using the stomp to illustrate the problem of training this kind of technique, the 'more dangerous' ones...

So in your example did you start training soft and it got out of hand? Do you use different rules in sparring if you wanna go softer...? Like, 'Today, no roundhouse kicks to the inside of Seven's knee!'?

[yenhoi]

If all we are talking about is ring fighting, then dont expect to "use" anything you havent trained mucho against fully resisting opponents. Things can still "happen" tho.

:eek:

[Ray Pina]

I know the kick and it is affective but also risky, maybe that's why you don't see it in ring fighting.

If the guy sees it and charges in giving you the knee it won't cause the damage and break your balance or worse, you'll glance off and expose your flank or back.

[red5angel]

I'd go with both the mook and the sparring. So far it sounds like people have had enough experience with this kick that sparring it isn't too risky (And when it get's down to it, everything is risky in sparring, just degrees...). not reason not to use both.

[Ray Pina]

Well, I think its "extra" risky :) because if its going to be affective it has to come off the front foot and most people don't have the leverage or power and dont drive their weight forward when kicking off the front leg, so it really opens up the potential to have your structure broken.

But the real reason you don't see it in the ring is simple: attacking joints is illegal.

[Mutant]

In most forms of full contact and even 'nhb' competition, stomping against the knee joint is illegal. In san da it is illegal to attack directly against the joint, but you can strike to the back or side of it.
It would be difficult to land this and do damage with it against a well conditioned fighter anyway, and then you'd have to deal with a fighter who was very ****ed off at you for trying to take take out/cripple their joint.
Its one of those things thats hard to train live, but if you train contact techniques that are similar to it but not so potentially damaging, you'd have a decent chance of making work in the street when the shiite hit the fan.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Nick
Oh, I forgot, there's no joint destruction allowed in most NHB competitions, so that's probably why you haven't seen it.

This statement is completely and categorically wrong.


Originally posted by MutantWarrior
In most forms of full contact and even 'nhb' competition, stomping against the knee joint is illegal.

It's legal in the UFC. It's legal in Pride. It's legal in King of the Cage. It's legal in Ring of Combat. It's legal in Reality Fighting. It's legal in Mass Destruction. I've never been to a nhb event of any kind in which it wasn't legal.

EDIT: Forgot; it isn't legal in Mass Destruction, because the Massachusetts athletic commission has all kinds of weird rules, and they change on a monthly basis. Still legal in just about everything else, though.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Mat
So in your example did you start training soft and it got out of hand? Do you use different rules in sparring if you wanna go softer...? Like, 'Today, no roundhouse kicks to the inside of Seven's knee!'?

nah, the rules don't change. we stick to the rules of the sport - kicks to the knee are legal, so we always do it. contact level varies, depending on how we feel and who we are working with. In this case, we were going hard from the get go.

[Nick]

So let me get this straight...

...one, it's easy to break somebody's leg with a stomp kick, even to the front of the knee when it's bent in a 3/4 stance...

...and two, that particular move is legal in all the commercial NHB leagues???

Something's not right here...

Later...

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Nick

Something's not right here...

That would be "one".

[Mr Punch]

For ****'s ****ing ****'s sake Nick, don't wanna throw my toys out of the ****ing pram here, but NOBODY ****ing mentioned kicks to the front of the knee before you, and NOBODY suggested that you could break somebody's ****ing 3/4 bent leg with a stomp to the front of it.

AND I've quoted your miscomprehension TWICE next to my original description of the technique example in question... and it's not to say that what you've said isn't valid in it's own way, BUT READ THE ****ING THREAD AGAIN! :rolleyes:

**** me pink.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by SevenStar


nah, the rules don't change. we stick to the rules of the sport - kicks to the knee are legal, so we always do it. contact level varies, depending on how we feel and who we are working with. In this case, we were going hard from the get go. That's what I mean: there's no safe way of practising this kind of tech is there...? I don't mean safe as in safe-as-not-leaving-your-house-when-it's-raining-cos-you-don'-wanna-catch-a-cold kind of safe, but safe in a way that if you want to get this kind of tech off to a higher percentage, there's a high chance of injuring whoever you're training with...

So it looks like mook, heavy bag, heavy leg pads and a mildly co-operating opponent for me then...

[Nick]

Sorry. **** ****. I thought you said that "you could work it on a 3/4 stance" **** **** which I thought what was wrong. *** ****

Later...

EDIT: **** ****