Another problem with forms?

[Mr Punch]

This may have been said before, but I don't remember it.

I've done a lot of forms.

I've done slt, ck and bj almost religiously, many times a week. In the old days, I did the same with karate. I always try to keep them alive, to move from one movement to another concentrating on root, the connections of my body, relaxing at the right time etc.

I've also extensively used heavy bags, wall bags, focus mitts and mook, not to mention sparring, concentrating on the same things, plus working on my ability to be able to deliver a good shot from any angle without falling on my butt.

But at one point during strike in most striking art's forms that I've seen, you are having to stop, break the flow and pull back/go into the next move. Even with the heavy bag, your energy is being delivered to the surface or the centre of the bag, and stopping.

Now of course, with the bag, it's the bag's mass that is stopping your punch as likely as not, but whichever of these training techniques we use, we are always stopping the force momentarily. Even sparring, unless we are going all out full contact.

This is the way we always practice is it not?

My internals teacher will take that force as it hits him, find the stopping point and bounce it staright back at me. So I think I can hit him with what should be a good shot and then I'm knocked back/landing on my butt.

I'm sure, too put it another way, my shooto teacher will suck up the force of the punch, sense the stop and break up his timing to hit/shoot.

Of course with combinations, and if I deliver a good shot in the first place, the chances of my opponents being able to read the stopping point or the chances of there being a stopping point are minimized.

But how do we train for this?

[Nick]

Be fast and unpredictable.

Later...

[Mr Punch]

That's fighting advice, not training advice.

My question, more simply put, is what's the best way to train to ensure that we are delivering maximum force with minimum stopping time?

So sure, by speeding up and relaxing my punch, I should be able to minimise the stopping time, but is training this against the bag the answer? The speedball? Focus mitts?

[SevenStar]

I've done slt, ck and bj almost religiously, many times a week.


secrets are revealed all the time, eh? :D

[SevenStar]

this is actually something I'm fighting with currently. I'm a power guy, that's no secret. The problem there is that on certain techniques, my stopping point, as you are referring to becomes more obvious. My MT teachertells me that when I am throwing a really hard cross, I try to plow through too much sometimes, and it will leave me open for a second.

To fix / compensate for it, I'm doing a few things - I'm making a conscious effort to make my punches faster, really focusing on the recoil. Also, I am throwing more strikes, staying constantly in motion, never giving one strike the chance to linger like that, especially after a power shot. I've been doing this via padwork and sparring, at various intensities.

That stopping point, especially off of a cross will sometimes kill my movement, and I will end up eating a leg kick. That's another issue I'm actively trying to correct.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Don’t let your mind intent stop during your practice and relax more
Whats stopping is not your punch but your intent. Others can sense this. Its at these times that your stuck.

Just means that there are gaps in your movements.

[Shooter]

leaf is correct

[Nick]

Erm... TRAIN to be fast and unpredictable? Believe it or not, you'll always be open to a certain extent when you attack and you'll very rarely get to unload combos on a worthy opponent, so why worry?

Later...

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Mat
My internals teacher will take that force as it hits him, find the stopping point and bounce it staright back at me... But how do we train for this?

Train however your neijia teacher trained in order to do it?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Nick
Erm... TRAIN to be fast and unpredictable?

I think you're missing it... I think he asking for specific training methods to accomplish what he is trying to accomplish.


you'll very rarely get to unload combos on a worthy opponent, so why worry?


I wish someone woulda told me that before I started sport fighting...we use combos all the time. not all of them land, but it's a numbers game - punches in bunches. Chances are, I'm not gonna knock you out with the first strike, so I have to follow with something...

[Royal Dragon]

Spar alot, and learn to feel through it. Your answers will come. There is no other way.

[Royal Dragon]

I wish someone woulda told me that before I started sport fighting...we use combos all the time. not all of them land, but it's a numbers game - punches in bunches. Chances are, I'm not gonna knock you out with the first strike, so I have to follow with something...

Reply]
That's probably why my forms have so many 1-2-3 combos in the striking.

[Nick]

I practice combos, but find I get hit in the middle of them...

Later...

[Mr Punch]

Thanks to Seven and Bamboo Leaf for answering my question.

Focussing on recoil would seem to be a good idea, but in my CMAs I often wanna stick even after the punch/palm, to take balance or clear the guard for the next one. Of course there are recoiling punches in WC, for the shock effect, but the penetrative punches do want to wait a while.

At the same time, I want to keep my energy moving, I want to make sure that I'm not tensing up. Practising forms is good for releasing \energy immediately after the punch when you start, but then you have to reassess when you work the bag/other people. Hence my problem.

I know the myriad of probable answers, I want to know other people's methods for overcoming this problem if they even notice it.


Royal D
Spar alot, and learn to feel through it. Your answers will come. There is no other way.I think you'll find there are other ways! :D

I spar a lot, but this has only been part of my answer so far. Mainly because in sparring I'm not really trying to nail somebody, so it's a different feeling.


Christopher M
Train however your neijia teacher trained in order to do it?Gee, thanks Chris. There will now follow a 500 word dissertation from Chris M on the purpose of and experience of being on discussion forums! :D

I already suggested the same thing happening in two completely different approaches (internals/shooto) with reference to WC form work. I have the same problem across the board, and I've noticed and exploited it in others also.

So I was interested in other people's options. Of course I'll be doing what my teachers suggest.

Leaf. cheers, nice answer, but how do *you* train this? If there is an answer other than 'just relax'...!

[Christopher M]

I was serious! And I only used 11 words, which isn't bad I don't think. I was hoping maybe you would discuss how your internal teacher trains and what aspects of that you think contribute to the skill you noticed, and so on.

[Mr Punch]

OK, OK, my bad!

I'll hopefully get onto my internals teacher's method for that in the next couple of days on the 'Switching from WC to HI' thread on the internals board in the next couple of days.

What about you!!!???;)

[Mr Punch]

Also Bamboo-Leaf:

when/if you use a punch with recoil where is your intent?

[Christopher M]

Welcome to the dark side! :p

I try to distinguish "rise/fall and drill/overturn" and "open/close" which should also be in your xingyi hand/body work. If I alternate a very pure overturn or open with a very pure drill or close, I see how one "loads" the next, yet each one can still be a technique. That way I get bang! bang! bang! bang! instead of bang! load.. bang! load..

Then I investigate the movements of my solo practice as each being different permutations of rise/drill/fall/overturn... this move has a bit more rising, this one has a bit more overturning... it can be mixed in infinite combinations. Understanding this lets me "round out" the load/fire movements so over time it will become less bang! bang! bang! bang! and more just baaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnggggggggggg!

[bamboo_ leaf]

edited

not what i wanted to say. ;)

[No_Know]

Hello one called Mat. There was a thingie about candle practice here-abouts. I looked at that. For me it actually was an exercise training at least stopping power. An ability to discontinue a technique without choking or brain-freeze~.

I thought how to do this without candle. Punching near a wall. The method is to punch a solid wall Without damaging you nor the wall. To train what I think I got from your posts and SevenStar's, punch at up-to peak force, feel contact with the wall, and withdraw.

You can do this with your computer monitor or nearly any surface, theoretically. Get as close as can, and repeat at will. The best is to feel the surface, but not transfer force nor rest on it. Something like that.

Water is perhaps the best to be informative. But walls can train you to sufficient improvement.

One called Mat I recommend this barely hitting method on partially open cupboard doors.~ When you can hit the door full force and it not shift much if at all you might be able to have stops too short for most to read and exploit.

SevenStar, Work it slow to understand it. Apply it faster until it is applied at Fast. At the middle of any technique you are preparing to begin another. At the end of the front technique, blends the beginning of the following technique.

Both of you...It is Breathing. Without holding your breath do you ever really Stop breathing? Inhale 'til it changes to exhale. If there is a stop it seems to at least some nearly inperceptable~. So should be the changes of techniques or movement.

I No_Know

[brothernumber9]

An excercise you can use to help develop speed and power simultaneously on a heavy bag.
Place an object or suspend an object (like a cookie sheet) behind the back of the bag only to the point where the bag cannot reach it unless you hit it with the force you deem as full. The object would preferably make some noise to confirm a good technique.

Start with a set number of say 20 punches/kicks, count how many times you can make the object behind the back make a noise, do this about three times to get a gauge of a consistent number of times you can make the object confirm a good technique. later when you do the drill you will time yourself and stop time when you reach the consistent number you set before. Naturally you would hope to better your time, and you can adjust the drill for more if you desire.
In addition if you set another target close by but far enough that you have to move your feet you could perform the same drill alternating targets while working foot speed, and direction change as well.