???How much is enough???

[quiet man]

OK, I know you're supposed not to pay attention to insults, lies etc., I know that a good horse always leaves a trail of dust behind (as the saying goes in my homeland), I know that sticks and stones may break my bones, I know all about rubber and glue, but HOW MUCH IS REALLY ENOUGH?! When is it time (if ever) to make the other one put his fists where his mouth are?

Here's the story in short: my sifu started his WC training in 1978. with mr. S (the instigator of WC in my country, under Leung Ting), but after a while grew dissatisfied and eventually became a student of WSL in 1987. Students of mr. S have since then been badmouthing my sifu, and we have learned to ignore them, but recently one of mr. S's students goes around saying my sifu is "a clown", "a coward", "went from one teacher to another like a hyena", "a liar", "misrepresenting himself as a student of WSL", "he can't defend himself" (all exact quotes) and so on. To be honest, I KNOW things like that doesn't matter, but I FEEL really nauseous... maybe I'm stupid, but I just can't understand why some people do that (and if that's stupidity, I prefer to remain stupid).

Would you pay him a visit and have a little talk (I mean talk, not looking for trouble) with him? What would it take to make you 'angry', and would you 'champion' your school? Have any of you had any similar experiences?

Thanks for all inputs.

[kj]

"Slander is a vice that strikes a double blow; wounding both him that commits, and him against whom it is committed." - Bernard Joseph Saurin

"In taking revenge, a man is but even with his enemy; but in passing it over, he is superior." - Sir Francis Bacon

"Truth is generally the best vindication against slander." - Abraham Lincoln

"If someone says something bad about you, you must live so they won't believe it ..." - Author unknown

"Have patience awhile; slanders are not long-lived. Truth is the child of time; erelong she shall appear to vindicate thee." - Immanuel Kant

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but they make a good excuse." - Thomas Szasz

"Living well is the best revenge." - George Herbert

A story of two men with "profound senses of duty and justice": William Anderson Hatfield & Randolph McCoy (http://www.real-mccoys.com/feud.html)

Peace be with you and yours.
- kj

[yuanfen]

Quiet man- contemplating criticism to see of there any merits and then ignoring critics who have no merit- is a good path includinga wing chun path.

[yuanfen]

Quiet man- contemplating criticism to see of there any merits and then ignoring critics who have no merit- is a good path includinga wing chun path.

Self Reliance.

[Ultimatewingchun]

quiet man:

In 1996 someone from another wing chun lineage purposely moved his class literally next door to mine (5' away)...in a place that rented rooms by the hour for martial arts, dance classes, acting classes, etc.

Before he moved in - he first placed a spy in my school and found out that I was scheduled to have double hernia surgery in about 6 weeks. He also immediately tried to intimidate/provoke me by taking my signs down around the place and putting up his own in the exact spot...when I called him on the phone...he backed off...but only for awhile.

Exactly three weeks after my surgery he comes into my room while I'm teaching (and obviously not actually "doing " much of anything, ie.- like throwing kicks, for example)...He brings one of his students with him...and sits down in a chair.

When I asked him what he wanted he told me that he wanted his student to see the "wrong way" of doing wing chun...and then proceeded to challenge me to a fight...called me a coward when I declined (even though I reminded him that I knew that "he knew" about my surgery)...and then - right in front of my students...says that my sifu, William Cheung, "is a piece of 5hit."

Exactly one week later we went into his room while he was teaching and a fair fight took place (someone from my lineage did the fighting)...and this character was beaten to the point where he actually needed some medical attention and went to a nearby hospital. (Nothing serious...but enough to require atention).

I also told him in no uncertain terms that when I was fully healed (in approximately 6-8 months) - I would be back - and this time he would have to fight me.

He had me arrested and I spent the next 8 months or so fighting off assault charges and appeared in court six times (he kept not showing up...finally the District Attorney dropped the charges against me, and a discussion actually took place between my attorney, the D.A. and the judge about possibly even pressing perjury charges aginst this guy - which we decided against, because by then...enough was enough).

By the way, the character is question and myself were immediately thrown out of the place where we were teaching after the incident - and by the time all legal proceedings were over he actually left the country - although I believe he has subsequently returned.

Morale of the story? Even with all the trouble - I would gladly do it all again! There IS a point past which people have to be "called out" and made to pay for their transgressions - and he had clearly crossed over that line.

[yuanfen]

I for one am saddened whenever I see a reference to the NY affair or its predecessor in Germany. Both IMO are bad examples of wing chun in protocol and in substance (I have seen the available pics)with varying spins put on both incidents.

[Fresh]

Since when did the laws in you're country let you to "call" people out and "make them pay" instead of calling the police or a lawyer? Are martial artsists above the laws made for everyone else?

:eek:

:mad:

:(

:confused:

:rolleyes:

I don't get it.

[anerlich]

This sort of stuff goes on all the time ... anyone who is any good or gets any sort of profile will have detractors wanting to cut them down. Smarter people realise you can't raise yourself by trying to drag others down to your level. If people sauy this to your face, just remind them how pathetic their behaviour is.

Let your results do the talking, success of your school, etc. If you really care, enter tournaments and invite this guy's students to do the same. As Victor's story attests, no good ever comes of challenge matches or calling people out.

To add to KJ's list, an old Chinese proverb: "Only a fool listens to the braying of the a$$".

[Ultimatewingchun]

Fresh:

Call a lawyer or a policeman because this guy did what he did to insult and disrupt me, my sifu, and, and my classes???!!!

Are you serious?

"Excuse me officer, but this guy called my sifu a 'piece of 5hit' right in front of my students...would you please arrest him for that?"

"Hello...Mr. lawyer...I want to sue this guy who put a spy in my school, falsely accused me of being a coward, and called my sifu a piece of...."

Yeah, right!

The moron got just what he deserved - a beating.

You know...I've never publicly said this before - regarding that incident. But it was a particlarly difficult time in my life - and when he pulled those antics he was really doing it to the wrong guy at the wrong time:

The trouble became visible when the man in question moved his school next door to mine on September 3 rd, and started removing my signs from the bulletin boards...the double hernia surgery occurred on September 23 rd...My beloved father died in my arms from heart failure on October 1 ft...and this clown walked into my class looking for trouble on October 14th.

I was in no mood to put up with any 5hit from someone like him...no mood at all.

You know....there's a saying that I've followed for many years now:

"Return good for good; for evil - JUSTICE."

-Confucius

This guy clearly deserved to be taught the kind of lesson that no lawyer or policeman would have administered.

[Fresh]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
This guy clearly deserved to be taught the kind of lesson that no lawyer or policeman would have administered.

So basically you are saying its okay to be a vigillante. Or maybe its just okay for YOU to be a vigilante. :rolleyes: How else are we supposed to read the kinds of comments you re making?

It might seem stupid to tell the police what the guy said. To me it seems stupid not to tell your lawyer about the signs and harrassment before going to batter someone. It also seems stupid to let someone like that into your school. And if he came in when you told him to keep out then you could have called the police and had more to tell them than just the guy said mean things. You might be proud of what you did but you could have handled it different. If things had gone a little different the day you barged into his school you could have landed in jail too. Too much chest thumping over a lot of bad judgement in my opinion. He is probably still thumping his chest too. :(

[anerlich]

Fresh,

You need to calm down, man.

Those of us who watched this unfold over the internet know what a complete a-hole the other party was being at the time.

Victor paid the consequences of his actions. The other guy basically pulled every trick in the book for months on end to get a confrontation with TWC instructors from which he thought they'd back down, and he got one and they didn't.

Victor tried to talk it out beforehand with the guy -even bought him a beer - but he didn't want to know. Believe me, people have been shot for a lot less in the USA.

Personally, I'm torn between knowing that the fight wasn't right, but putting up with someone trying to pi$$ on your sincere efforts and livelihood over something as pointless and stupid as lineage rivalry certainly isn't either. But -

Unless you've walked a mile in the guy's shoes and had to put up with a smilar situation, which was quite obviously *extremely* vexatious to those of us who witnessed it, you shouldn't judge him.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Fresh:

I guess we just do things a little differently in New York City. I'm born, raised, and still live - in Brooklyn.

Yes...I am satisfied with what I did.

This is not basket-weaving that I've been doing/teaching all these years. It's fighting...plain and simple. And sometimes risking jail-time and/or injury just comes with the turf.

Let me tell you about the first streetfight I ever had...back in 1956. I was 6 years old. And that's not a misprint. I said 6...

And I just had plastic surgery on my right hand - as I was born with six fingers on that hand (and three of them were connected together). So the surgery eliminated one of the fingers...which required skin grafts from my stomach and thigh - and 200 stitches in my hand and fingers. I was wearing a sling on my arm and a cast on my hand.

A crazy kid from down the street (my age) punched the cast on my hand after a verbal argument about "who knows what" - and the blood started to appear right through the cast. I started to cry and ran into the house. My father, upon hearing what happened - told me to go back outside and fight him with the other hand...

Which I did...punching, kicking, biting, scratching...whatever - until some other adult on the block came along and broke it up.

That's where I come, Fresh.

To each his own.


And Andrew: Thank you.

[quiet man]

Thanks, guys. I know myself: in a day or two I won't even remember this #$%&, but in the meantime it really helps to hear from someone who's had similar experiences.



Although, kj, that story was a bit long and... I just couldn't be bothered to read it ;) :D
(Just kidding. Thank you, really)

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by anerlich
This sort of stuff goes on all the time ... anyone who is any good or gets any sort of profile will have detractors wanting to cut them down. To add to KJ's list, an old Chinese proverb: "Only a fool listens to the braying of the a$$".

In australia we acknowledge this very phenomenom and have even named it.....we call it" tall poppy syndrome".............common amongst peers and best dealt with by means of of diligent independant activity ;)..............................


to re-quote Gene Vhing "find your peace in practice" :):)

[AdrianUK]

Victor,

If you are saying that you think you handled the situation the best way possible, then you are not representing Grandmaster Cheung very well. In all the years of your training you feel it all comes down to fighting ? I would hope that after as many years training as you have I would have a better attitude than that, I certainly would not justify my actions by mentioning a rough childhood neighbourhood. I thought the central core of training was not fighting unless you have to and to pass the responsible, mature, lets face it, civilised attitude on to students. Victor, I have to say I have really enjoyed your technical postings, despite being from the "other" lineage, but this attitude is disappointing.

Regards,
Adrian

[Ultimatewingchun]

Adrian:

I appreciate your honesty...and although I'm not one to turn the other cheek - I can honestly tell you that I have never gone around looking for a fight; and whenever someone joined (or tried to join) my school with that attitude...

he was gone quickly.

I don't like bullies - and I certainly don't endorse violence for it's own sake. Many times in my life people have challenged or tried to provoke me in some way...and my response was to ignore it or walk away.

But there are exceptions to that "rule"...you can't tie your own hands in advance. That's just foolish, IMO.

[Spark]

I'm sorry to bring this attitude to this thread but IMO you're both being *****s. You've obviously not been through some of the things Victor has (otherwise I would hope to have seen more understanding), but I have and can say that from what both he and anerlich have recounted what ensued was unfortunate but especially given the circumstances, just.

I wouldn't try to justify your actions, you clearly chose to take the high road, but like the thread it titled, there is a point where enough is enough.

Take care

[PaulH]

I enjoy these interesting posts! I would like to share with you all my personal story that really change my life ever since. It was Cambodia, 1978 and I was imprisoned with my father after failing to make a successful escape to Thailand. Life was tough in the stinking confined cell, and several repeated attempts to escape were made by various "traitors" there. To prevent prisoner's escape, the communist prison commandant ruled that two prisoners are assigned together when going out chopping wood. Should one prisoner inmate fail to yell alerting the guards of the other's attempt to sneak away, his life is forfeited. So one day, a small boy did just that and the guards caught the other unlucky fellow escapee. They beat the man severely with rifle's butts, broke several of his teeth, and tossed him back to the cell broken in body and spirit. At the times I thought that that was it. These two guys will be mortal enemies for life. Later during the same night, the small boy quietly got close to the other man lying on the floor and offered him a spoon of soy sauce to go with the rice as a peace offering. The other man said nothing. He took the sauce and ate hungrily. Perhaps that might be his last meal and he needs to survive for a darker future ahead.

I can't say much about the lesson here to anyone. One thing I know - all things ever since are so insignificant in comparison to the drama that I witnessed.

Regards,
PH

[Ultimatewingchun]

That IS an amazing (but sad) story, Paul.

You're right...all this other stuff we've been talking about is nothing compared to the situation you described - including you and your father's ordeal.

For all the people in your story...it was a life-or-death situation.

The situations/experiences I described from my life don't even come close by comparison.

[reneritchie]

I will share the best advice on this I was ever given.

Intelligent people will find the facts and come to the proper conclusion. Idiots, well... who cares what the idiots do?

[kj]

Thanks for sharing so much of yourself, Paul, and for offering us the benefit of your accumulated wisdom. You are awesome.

Regards,
- kj

[PaulH]

Thanks, Kathy and Victor. Some stories just have to be told. I'm just glad to have a chance to share with you, folks. I'm just a guy, you know. =)

[anerlich]

If you are saying that you think you handled the situation the best way possible, then you are not representing Grandmaster Cheung very well.

Contrary to the propaganda from, ahem, "other lineages", Sigung Cheung was no shrinking violet when it came to confrontations himself. One of my friends trained with him in the 1960s, and he took quite a few. People regularly came to his kwoon in Melbourne in the 1970s looking for confrontations and got them.

Coming from the "other lineage" you are hardly in a position to pass judgement regarding the rights and wrongs of physical confrontations.

Since the subject was raised, the latest issue of the MA rag Australasian Blitz contains an interview with Emin Boztepe. He claims in the interview that he was sent to ambush Sigung Cheung by Messrs Kernspecht and Leung Ting, to protect their honour, though how the action had that result escapes me. He also claims to have tried to mend fences with some TWC guys in New Jersey, and that he doesn't regard Sigung Cheung as a personal enemy, but he was only following orders. I think he now hates his former seniors far more than anyone who does TWC. FWIW.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The latest issue of the MA rag Australasian Blitz contains an interview with Emin Boztepe. He claims in the interview that he was sent to ambush Sigung Cheung by Messrs Kernspecht and Leung Ting, to protect their honour, though how the action had that result escapes me. He also claims to have tried to mend fences with some TWC guys in New Jersey, and that he doesn't regard Sigung Cheung as a personal enemy, but he was only following orders. I think he now hates his former seniors far more than anyone who does TWC. FWIW." (Andrew Nerlich)

I believe there is a large grain of truth in the idea that people like Keith Kernspecht and Leung Ting encouraged Boztepe to ambush William Cheung.....although this does not change the fact that he did it SO WILLINGLY. (Nor does it change the fact that Cheung was surrounded first...and that an entire "Legend" career has been attempted based upon an edited and inconclusive ensuing video).

Earlier that year (1986)...Leung Ting made the mistake of coming to places like New York City and asking for people from the audience to come up and try to block his straight punch - and although I attended neither event - I know of two different seminars wherein two different TWC people came up and not only blocked his punch..but simultaneously hit him back - in the face.

One guy in particular really went out of his way to verbally assault Leung Ting also...to the effect that he (Leung Ting ) was "a fraud, that William Cheung was way beyond him, etc."

As to trying to mend fences with some TWC people in New Jersey - that is a VERY inaccurate reference to the fact that the TWC instructor, Keith Mazza, based out of N.J. - challenged Boztepe on several occasions over the last 8 years or so...and that several phone conversations have taken place wherein Boztepe managed to put up roadblocks of some kind or another to a "meeting" ever taking place.

Be that as it may...at this point in time, Boztepe should be a man about it and just take the next step after saying things like "he doesn't regard William Cheung as a personal enemy, but he was only following orders"...yadda, yadda...

And graduate to an unequivocal apology to William Cheung for the ambush - and especially for the way it was conducted and profited from.

IMO...that might go a long way toward ending the "Cold War" that has ensued for so many years now.

[AdrianUK]

Ok Guys,

Some responses to comments,

Anerlich,

Lineage has nothing to do with reaction to a physical confrontation, as I read it this other guy threw down a challenge, he was being an *******, the Victor picked up on it, does that make him any better ? My point would be it proves nothing, the guy making the challenge was being a pratt and taking it up proved nothing more that that.

Everyone,

For the record, I train in the lineage I do for the instructor I have, not for the head of the organisation. If there had been TWC near enough to get to I might have done that instead, as it is I enjoy what I do. I am no expert in it or speak for any part of the organisation, just for me. However, since no one seemed to pick on the implied question here, does Grandmaster Cheung teach Wing Chun as pure fighting with no development of mind and control ? I have heard nothing but good stuff about the grandmaster personally.

Final Note :

The ambush, challenge whatever you want to believe, it was a low, stupid thing to do, and I feel that the blame lies on the WT side, regardless of whether it went down how they say, a better man would have ignored the childish challenging. I don't fight everyone who crosses me because I don't have to, simple. They have there opinion, I have mine. As an interesting note on challenges, my instructor was challenged my an ex instructor under him. The guy barged in the class, threw his coat down and demanded a fight, now this is where the versions differ, the challenger said he charged in kicked my instructor in the balls and punched him, then left. I saw my instructor the next day and he looked fine, his version was the challenger came in, threw down the challenge and he said no, challenger demanded a fight, so my instructor said ok, lets make a date and time when I am not teaching and do it. The guy stormed off. I got to say for a guy punched and kicked full in the balls my instructor was fine the next day

Moral of this story is, whatever you want it to be, if you are saying you beat on anyone who pushes you with words due to your background, ok but thats not how I want to learn, I want to learn violence as a last resort to avoid violence

Regards,
Adrian

ps
Victor, if you ever do seminars in the uk I would love to attend and learn !

[Ultimatewingchun]

"However, since no one seemed to pick on the implied question here, does Grandmaster Cheung teach Wing Chun as pure fighting with no development of mind and control ? I have heard nothing but good stuff about the grandmaster personally"....

" if you are saying you beat on anyone who pushes you with words due to your background, ok but thats not how I want to learn, I want to learn violence as a last resort to avoid violence."

ps
Victor, if you ever do seminars in the uk I would love to attend and learn !


Adrian:

William Cheung has never been famous for being a peaceful man... and in truth, though he does teach (and can administer) some excellent meridian acupressure therapy, can cure many things with herbs, understands and teaches chi gung breathing for health and the cultivation of internal power, possesses an amazing power of mental concentration - which includes some instruction about how to lower one's rate of heart-beats and breaths per minute in order to stay cool under pressure ...

nonetheless - his social skills are sometimes lacking. In short, he's not an easy man to deal with. And if he were reading this he could tell you that I say these things with love and respect.

But the truth is the truth.

If it's a more serene and less confrontational approach to the overall philosophy and practice of martial arts you're looking for - he's not your man.

I've involved myself in other endeavors through the years in the search for a "higher" and "more spiritual" consciousness (ie.- raja yoga meditation, amoungst other things)....and as you have already noted - I'm still very much a work-in-progress in this regard.

-Victor

p.s.- I don't plan on coming to the UK anytime soon. But if you're ever in NYC - feel free to contact me and I'll invite you to come down to my school and attend some classes.

[anerlich]

Victor is correct.

BTW Victor, I did not mean to suggest that Emin "only following orders" made his conduct any less objectionable. Nothing good for WC as a whole came out of either confrontation.

Adrian, I see where you coming from now, and I know what you mean. I too would like the world to be a peaceful place where we all get on, but well, that doesn't always happen, and, face it, MA is for when the ideal rules get broken. There's not much point learning to hurt other people otherwise.

[Gangsterfist]

I read through this thread, and there are some great posts here. Paul, I really liked what you shared. Though I have never experienced anything like that myself, I have known a few immigrants who have. Its sad people have to go through things like that.

I was not going to post this on the forum, but I was involved in a fight last weekend. However, after reading victor's post I thought I would share.

Last saturday my friends and I were watching the hockey game, stanley cup finals game 6. My friend was outside on our front porch smoking a cigarrette (we don't allow smoking in our house), and some random drunk off the street hops our fence and propositions my friend. Says he will pay him 20 dollars to fight him and gets up on my front porch and starts threatening him. Well, we were right inside the living room which is about 10 feet from where the guy was standing. We come out and he looks like he wants to start trouble. My roomate immediately pushes him off the porch onto our sidewalk. We then pin him to the ground and tell him we want him out of our yard and to not come back. We then carried him out to the curb and dropped him there. He got back to his feet, at this point not harmed. He had been warned to leave, and knew we did not want to fight. He advanced right back at us again and swung at my friend. Once that hit landed the fight was already over. We had him on the ground and beat him.

He layed there for about 30 minutes and then got up and eventually (after some more yelling at us drunkily) left.

Now, I did not want to fight this guy. None of us did. We gave him fair chance to leave unscathed after he threatened one my friends and trespassed on my property. He did not get beated up too badly. Maybe some brusies and a few small cuts from being hit. At the worst a slight concussion. However, after thinking about it, I think the fight was the best resolution.

Sure, I could have called the cops and had him arrested for trespassing and assault. He was just drunk though, I didn't want to send some guy to jail for years (possibly) for just being dumb when they were drunk. I mean who hasn't done something stupid while intoxicated? Not to mention why tie up the legal system and the police when they can be helping someone else, someone who might actually need it. So, the guy messed up, got beat up, and eventually walked away. Not to mention all the legal fees that come with it could have finacially devastated the guy.

So they guy messed up and messed with the wrong people. Got a little beat up and was able to walk away. I think that was probably the best solution to what happened. There were several of us at my home that night and he just happen to stumble up to my house, threaten my friend, attack my other friend, and then get beaten up. The funny thing is, we all train some style of kung fu.

So, bottom line. Sometimes its better just to fight and get it over with then tie up police and the legal system, when someone else who may need it more could use it. Like victor said, enough for hospital attention, but nothing serious. That usually gets the point across. However, I avoiding fighting until its absolutely necessary.

[blooming lotus]

what happened to self-discipline in martial arts?....I also hope people here aren't out there having mini-wars ( if the reason is good enough) then turning around and persecuting Bush for the same thing.............violence is acceptable or it's not...end of story.........

[Ultimatewingchun]

"violence is acceptable or it's not...end of story........."

If only life were that simple.
So it's unacceptance to defend oneself if attacked?
Because that defense includes violence?
Against someone trying to use violence against you?

Would you tell that to your daughter?

As advice about what to do against a would-be rapist?
Or a mugger?

The use of violence (and raw power) is one of...perhaps THE most...difficult and complex of all human issues and dilemmas.

Trying to oversimplify it doesn't help matters.

[blooming lotus]

actually, my exact words are that "violence is unnaccpetable. If it's unaccepatable, it's unacceptable under any circumstance....gongfu is train your health......if you must defend yourself, use a throw, or othertake down , unless your life is in danger...."she's a good girl, moral and responsible............I trust her judgement, she knows the difference between railroading somebody and saving your life.

cheers

[russellsherry]

hi guys ob a recent , set of accidents, i was trying to have a beer at a hotel , in melbourne, and a friend of mine dean a disabled person as well , got into a augument with a so called friend , of his i was trying to be good honerst,, this guy was yelling swearing and makeing all diferent stupid claims aganst my
mate he knows dean is disabled by the way, i told him to be quiet sort it out carlmly. he throws a right hook at myself , and for some reason, i cant understand , why he strangely dropped to the grond apon doing so the he did not get the message, he charged
at me, i used po pai and footwork and he fell to the ground again
then he still does not learn , and as he came to me the third , time seems some people are just stupid he fell over backwoods into a table of glasses, and after that he stopped for some reason and picked his bag and ran off sometimes people have to learn the hard way peace russellsherry

[PaulH]

GF,

The tales of many refugees and immigrants still now too achingly painful to listen to even for me. I have heard too many of their tragic stories and seen those haunted eyes too many times. But here I am in America and I would like to live a meaningful life without regrets. I think that must be a reason I like the ending of "Saving Private Ryan" a lot. Life is a gift and one must earn it with dignity, honor, and grace while he still has it. I'm grateful my little story means something to you. Take care, bro! =)

[anerlich]

what happened to self-discipline in martial arts?

Nothing has changed. Implying its lack in someone else remains a great way to put down those who choose not to follow your idea of correct conduct, when arguing on the WWW.

Many say self discipline is an integral part of MA (which it is, but no more so than working towards any worthy and challenging goal), or that MA training will somehow cultivate it better than anything else ... which is not so, it must come from within.

And WTF does Bush have to do with any of this?

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by PaulH
GF,

The tales of many refugees and immigrants still now too achingly painful to listen to even for me. I have heard too many of their tragic stories and seen those haunted eyes too many times. But here I am in America and I would like to live a meaningful life without regrets. I think that must be a reason I like the ending of "Saving Private Ryan" a lot. Life is a gift and one must earn it with dignity, honor, and grace while he still has it. I'm grateful my little story means something to you. Take care, bro! =)

Yes, I have also heard some very nasty WWII stories. Its stories like these that make you appreciate what you really have. I may have some problems with america, and what its government does, however I do realize it is a great place to live.

A friends family member was in WWII fighting in the pacific islands against japanese soldiers. They had taken an island from Japan about a week previous. One lone sniper sat in a distant tree for a week to get one shot off, to kill an officer. That officer just happened to be within feet of my friends family member. How does one person stay stranded in a tree knowing nothing but defeat remain to just make one last kill, even though it does not affect the outcome of the previous battle?

As humans we often do things which are wrong. Revenge can drive a man to do a lot. However, I will say as brutal and nasty as it gets, its what makes us human I suppose.

I do not condone violence. Infact, the last fight I ever started was years ago in high school. I saw an ROTC kid spit on a girl and then slap her in the face. I had no idea what the situation was, but I didn't stand for it. I whopped the kid pretty good and felt justified. That was the last time I ever started a fight with anyone (well, besides my brother but he doesn't count).

If the situation presents itself and I see an opportunity where fighting someone is justified I suppose I would take it. Today on the streets it may be different than back in high school, so I can't be 199% sure I would do the same thing today. Once you get a knife pulled on you, you kind of realize your mortality.

[blooming lotus]

can't people here talk without swearing????....anger management all round thx..........

regardless, the point with Bush, is if everyone is running around with a good excuse to use violence.....meaning there are good excuses to be violent.........he not exempt right?

[Miles Teg]

"can't people here talk without swearing????....anger management all round thx.........."


Aheeeeeeeeeeeemmmmm!!!!!!Cough cough!!



Notes from the master (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=30193&perpage=15&pagenumber=15)

(3rd post dowwn from the top)

[Miles Teg]

Yaaaaaay!!!!!!! That was my first link thingy. Im so proud of myself.

[AdrianUK]

Victor,

Thanks for the response, I can see where you are coming from with regard to the temperement of Grandmaster Cheung, but I guess we are all on the same path somewhere

Regards,
Adrian

ps
If I do make it to NY sometime I will be sure to visit your school and add to my WC/WT

[Kaitain(UK)]

Victor - my respect to you. Given the threat to your school (which would have lost students had this gone unanswered), you had no choice in this - sometimes turning the other cheek just means you get slapped twice.

Paul

[blooming lotus]

noone said anything about turning the other cheek.but you don't have to slap theirs in order to not have yours slapped

[Kaitain(UK)]

When someone walks into your school, challenges you in front of your students (whilst knowing that you cannot accept at that point due to surgery), and then further insults your Sifu - that is a direct threat to business as much as anything else. Students are impressionable - how long do you think that school would survive if no response was made? To me the only valid response was the one given.

I am deliberately removing honour from the equation because that is a seperate justification that is more easily argued - I think if it had been done in private there may not have been any trouble. The insult was made with the express purpose of provocation and the loss of face in front of his students.

[blooming lotus]

I understand that that can be a huge issue.............but I think the secret is to what you're really teaching.and what example do you really want them to follow????.......of course fees become imporant to ensure the longevity of your business....but it's not old day hong kong................the world will not end./no matter what goes down, the world will NOT end!.............sometimes we can aford to take the high ground

[Kaitain(UK)]

Possibly - I view it like this:
If i spend hours and hours of my time building up my school and the good name of myself and my teacher, then someone who tries to take that away from me should be stopped.

As far as i can make out, all measures were taken to resolve this without violence - but ultimately someone comes and starts a school of the same style 5 feet from your own established school, then comes in and challenges you to fight, and then insults the teacher that has put their time and effort into training you.

To me I would be teaching entirely the right lesson by accepting the challenge (or in this case, due to injury, having my student accept the challenge) - I've been through some pretty unpleasant things myselg and there are people in this world who don't let you do 'the right thing'. Sometimes you have to say "this stops here". I would know in my heart and soul if I had done the right thing - that's the only person that matters when it comes to conscience.

[blooming lotus]

I guess in the real world you're right, but I'm gearing to shaolin and there's nothing "real world" about it...........you remind me of old day hong kong,. but I'll pay it anyway, because you're right.this jazz goes down, people test their testosterone, ..just don't hurt him tooo much ....he didn't realise :cool:

[AdrianUK]

One More Response

This is a hypothetical repsonse since I don't run a class yet, but, if I had a successfull class built up and someone opened a school next door of a different lineage, I doubt I would worry. I would hope my students are with me because they enjoy what they are learning and respect me. If they could be tempted to go next door and never come back then either I am teaching wrong or they were not the sort of students I would want anyway. End of the day the guy was being an ass opening a class next door, but would the quality of your offering not cleaned his class out in time ? Anyway, in the instance discussed here there were a lot of contributing factors beyond the location. For me I guess the line is drawn that a physical threat requires a physical response, no physical threat no need for a physical response.

Everyone just enjoy what you do !

Adrian

[anerlich]

can't people here talk without swearing????

Sorry, I lack self-discipline. You might note I used an abbreviation. Not good enough? Don't care.


....anger management all round thx..........

Losing the oversensitivity and getting off the high horses might be good too.

[blooming lotus]

yes, it might.....whose high horse it when you can genuinely harm someone for egos sake???.do you really need the boost enough to harm someone??????..........

and dui .dwai.correct...............physical threat otfen ( but not always as we just discussed in my gongfu skilled pre-china-departure class, who may or may not encounter racism)...........REQUIRES a physical response, but "how physical is really essential ???"........is my question???????

[SevenStar]

whatever amount it takes to remove the threat.