wing chun and dim mak have the same founder? ATTN Blooming Lotus

[SevenStar]

quote:Originally posted by SevenStar

this coming from someone who thinks that wing chun and dim mak were founded by the same person?





quote:Originally posted by SevenStar

llok...mr.i'm so 7 andknowledgable.what've you got to prove it's not so?????????????


okay, unlike you I live on proof. I will post links here - several of them showing that wing chun's founder did NOT also create dim mak. she was versed in it, but was not it's founder.

I will start here:

"Wing Chun History

By the start of the 17th century there was great turmoil brewing in the country and there was also unrest between the 5 elders at Shaolin. In (1644), the Manchus invaded China and ruled it with an iron fist for nearly 300 years. The Manchus were well aware of the skills of the Shaolin monks and their sympathy for refugees. The 5 elders (were Taoist and Buddhists monks) of the Shaolin temple around this period were:


Abbot Jee Shin - Shaolin Iron Cloth - (Iron Head Qi Gong master, Kung Fu expert, wooden dummy expert and weapons expert) was the creator of Wing Chun Kung Fu and the founder of Hung Gar and Praising spring boxing,.

Bai Mei - Golden Bell Iron Body - (Iron Body Qi Gong master) was the founder of White Eyebrow Kung Fu.

Fong Sai Yuk, (famous swordsman) was the founder of White Tiger Kung Fu.

Miu Hin, (was not an ordained monk, but was a Kung Fu elder) was the founder of Five Shape boxing and helped in developing Wing Chun

Ng Mui, (buddhist nun, Bil Gee master and Dim Mak expert) helped develop the practical aspects of Wing Chun Kung Fu, founded Dragon shape boxing and Wu Mei boxing."

note that is says she was a dim mak expert, but not that she founded it. this came from:

http://www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/history.htm

[SevenStar]

This is an excerpt from a link I posted a while back, when you originally made the claim:

"The Buddhist abbess Ng Mui came away from the Shaolin Temple with the sacred knowledge of the other four abbots. The highest form of kung fu to practice, the usage of the fingers as a strikng weapon and Dim Mak "Death Striking." Ng Mui passed this knowledge to the young orphan girl Yim Wing Chun along with the Wing Chun Shaolin School of the Thirty Wing Chun Bil Jee Pressure Points. These cavity strikes are holes on the body that chi energy constantly flow over. Once these holes are closed, they give a painful paralyzing or crippling effect to the individual, on which it is applied. Many Shaolin Masters and systems or styles have Bil Jee incorporated in them, but few know exactly how to execute this deadly art."


not that once again, it doesn't say she founded it.

http://www.wingchun.com/ClaytonBilJee.html

[Toby]

Dim Mak history (http://members.tripod.com/ju_jutsu_master/id57.htm) says that Chang Shang Feng invented taiji and dim mak (the latter in conjunction with two acupuncturists).

The Science Behind Dim Mak (http://www.dimmak.net/) says that the same man created tai chi and dim mak.

Chapters 3(1)-(3) of Advanced Dim Mak (http://ryukyu.com/id185.html) says that Chang San Feng invented "hitting points" and implies he was helped by a doctor and a surgeon (the two acupuncturists mentioned at the top of my post?).

Halfway down this review page (http://www.jiangschool.com/amazon.htm), under the review for "Dim Mak: Death Point Striking" it says Chang San Feng invented tai chi to mask the true nature of his art, which was dim mak.

Searching for info about the above book on Amazon I get this page (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0873647181/ref=sib_vae_pg_20/103-5035777-0867837?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=history&p=S00O&twc=4&checkSum=My571Yz1%2BNZyK3a%2BkrJHPDGmiZgWTzT2gKsKj LuHMOo%3D#reader-link), which may not link properly. If not, search for "history" or "introduction" under the "Search inside this book" text box for the book "Dim Mak: Death Point Striking" and choose the 2nd link for either search. The Introduction page of the book and the next page have a bit of info stating that Chang San Feng invented both dim mak and tai chi.

So, I'm not saying I have an opinion one way or another and I'm not trying to vouch for the authenticity of the info above, but that's how it's done, BL.

[SevenStar]

wasn't ng mui alive during the 1700's, when the temple was burned?

Zhang San Feng is credited with being pivotal to IMA development in the 14 century, including dim mak.


EDIT: toby beat me to it!

[Mr Punch]

Uh-oh, looks like an exercise in futility!

1) Though that proof is infinitely better than any proof that Barking Lotus has come up with so far, they're still pretty hokey stories... LOL at finger death touches as usual... It's kinda like as plausible as saying, 'The Wicked Witch of the West did not invent dim mak.' :D

2) Blooming Loopy won't attempt to validate what she said anyway. And if she did it'd be something kinda like, 'The Wicked Witch of the West invented wing chun and dim mak, and I have proof right here, but I just can't get her to use the **** computer,'... :D

Admittedly, the first statement is still a safer bet.

[SevenStar]

I'm not expecting her to post any links - I know she won't. I'm doing it because on the mantis forum, she asked for proof disproving what she claims.

[Kickboxer]

here's an idea: if she's the board mascot here, why the hell do you guys care what she believes or not?

[omarthefish]

What kind of retarded question is being debated here anyways?

INVENTED!?!?! Dim Mak?

Why not just ask who invented punching you in the face? 'Dim Mak' is not a style, it's just cantonese for 'point hitting' or something like that. I only speak Mandarin so I can't say for sure what 'mak' is but it is most likely 'xue' - pressure points.

dian xue = dim mak

While were at it, lets look into who "invented" the armbar. Everybody knows that Helio Gracie invented the arm bar. At lest THAT we can document.

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. Omar with his crazy ideas!:D

You just can't understand 'cause you don't have a genius IQ! :p

[omarthefish]

I used to . . .

[Nick]

How can you people waste so much energy on one idiot?

Later...

[cerebus]

Heh, heh! Try working as a security guard on night shift for an empty office building. The rest is easy. :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Kickboxer
here's an idea: if she's the board mascot here, why the hell do you guys care what she believes or not?

because it's fun.

[Ray Pina]

King Arthur did not invent the dragon slaying technique, it was Peter Pan but only after collaberation with Merlin.

[Meat Shake]

Cmon, everyone knows that merlin was just a drunkard with a bad gambling habit and a real "soft spot" for hookers.

[Gangsterfist]

The lineages and founders of almost all southern systems of kung fu (especially southern temples) are very sketchy and full of loop holes. The history is basically a collection of legends. How true it is, we will probably never know.

Dim Mak is not what it used to be either. With the advancement of medicines a lot of injuries that would be fatal over time, are now cureable.

[SPJ]

There were many versions of legends for the 5 elders.

Dim Mak is pressure pointing Mai and not Xue.

Jing Mai are vessels or conduits for Qi to flow.

These are rooted in traditional Chinese medicine (TCM).

It is based on research and experiences over time (several thousand years).

No single people may claim to invent it all.

Unless of course, he invented all Chinese medicine (acupuncture, herbs, and pressure points) and he lived to 4000 years old.

[Chang Style Novice]

SPJ (http://www.mit.edu/~jasonm/cdpics/stopm_b.jpg)

[Tiger_Yin]

fong sai yuk made white tiger? like the movie with jet? :D lol god i loved that movie it kicked massive ass...

i guess fong sai yuk is mandarin for fong do duk then? cause thats what i was told as the founder of the style i studied it for some years a while ago when i was in alberta

[omarthefish]

spg,

Thanks. I've always been curious. I've read enough of the Yellow Emperor to know about jing mai. I'm actually feeling slightly stupid for not guessing 'mai'. 'Dim' was an easy one since I love to eat 'dian xin' but 'mai'...I feel like I should have been able to guess that one. I'm usually pretty good about guessing what the Mandarin terms are for things I've heard in Cantonese. The 2 languages aren't THAT different. Kind of like Spainish and Italian.

Anyways, I guess something usefull came out of this thread after all.

[SPJ]

Seriously.

The numbness and pain Xue (cavity) are widely used and coupled with Qin Na.

The fatal/death Xue needs to be undone by certain manuver or anti/solution Xues. Other wise, death is immiment.

The practictioner has to study human anatomy, physiology, and TCM and herbs. That would take several years. The practice hm several years more.

It is in the realm of both CMA and TCM.

CSN:

:D

[Ray Pina]

I certainly believe in selective targeting .... I love to strike the inside bicep and even use the phoenix to the upper lip and the two points below the nips.

But death strikes .... have you done it? At least on a monkey? or pig?

I haven't snapped anyone's neck, but know I can get a great head lock on and use leverage to do so. I know a really good shooto to the throat can maybe = lights out, shots to certain places.

But how does one KNOW that striking here and there -- to not visibly fatal areas-- = death an hour later?

I don't mean this in a pain-in-the-a$$ way, truly curious.

[Gangsterfist]

Back in the day if you got your lif nodes crushed and infected you would surely die from it. Things like that were called dim mak which had delayed death effects. Medicine has advanced since then and things like that don't really happen, we have anti-biodics.

However, there are other forms of dim mak which I know of, but by no means am proficient in. Things like: sealing the breath, breaking the bone, dislocating the bone, striking the heart, and sealing the blood. Obviously, if you crush someone's throat or snape their neck they will more than likely die. The delayed death, I am a bit skeptic on, but will not deny the fact that it might be real. Just because I have not seen or experienced it, does not mean it doesn't exist.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by SPJ
Seriously.

. . .

It is in the realm of both CMA and TCM.

CSN:

:D

AND good old fasioned modern medicine.

My Sifu one told me about a deadly "ice palm" delayed death strike. This guy would smack a guy on the abdomen with this special palm strike and if you wern't taken to a doctor in time you would start to get chills and cold sweats cold sweats in 2 or 3 days and would die within a week.

At the time I was working part time with this chiropractor buddy of mine who was also into MA. So I showed him the approximate location of the strike and described the symtoms. He consulted his various medical books and found a diagnosis with more syllables than a Russian name but in a nutshell it was some sort of weird inflamation that was pretty rare but could be triigered by a mild physical trauma to the panceas I think. So you smack a guy in the gut hard enough and with the right type of strike that a shock goes into him and injures his pancreas. Not ruptures or anything it just needs to cause "minor trauma". IF untreated, there can be some limited internal bleeding and a number of other things that cause fever, cold sweats and according to the medical text in his office, if untreated, death within 5-7 days.

That was just one example. I'm sure there's plenty more if you knew the death strike and had an MD available to help you research.

[Gangsterfist]

Omar,

Even if that is true, which I am not debating its not. It will not be a constant. Every human body is different. Delayed death strikes are kind of a waste of training IMHO. If you need to use a death strike type move, I think one thats instant would be better.

[omarthefish]

I wasn't trying to advocate dimmak training. I was pointing out that there is no need to get all TCM and superstitious about it. You don't need to see a special Chinese gong fu doctor for treatment. People have died several days later from old fasioned boxing or kickboxing realted causes. I used to have a book on MA related injuries and there were a few in there too. I remember one relating to a ruptured spleen. A good side kick in the right spot has the potential. A tough figher will sometimes even be able to continure and maybe even win his match. But then he gets home and he's ****ing blood. GET TO A DOCTOR.

This example was from some MD Krotty guy who wrote a book and never even mentioned Dim Mak, pressure points or anything else. It just mentioned a few very dangerous injuries you could get that you might shake off or think you just needed a hot bath and a good nights rest to recover from. Even minor internal bleeding can be fatal if not treated. But it could also take several days.

Yes. Every body is a little different. That's not relevent to the point I was trying to make.

If I WAS to make an argument for studying dim mak it would go something like this:

Dim Mak to me is just a matter of tageting. The chest is a better target than the torso. The left side of the chest is better than "the chest". The base of the pectoral muscle is better still and a fist with a protruding knuckle to the base of the pectoral muscle is even better. Better than that would be actually aiming for the point about 2/3 of the way out to the side which has some Chinese name I don't know.

Why is is better?

Aside from the effects of the pressure point strike:

If you miss by a bit, you still hit the chest.
If you miss by a bit more, you still hit the left side of the torso.
Miss by a bit more and at least you still hit the chest.
etc.

Just aim for "the torso" and you will most likely just hit the arms of the person blocking.

A good boxer doesn't just aim for "the face". He want's to hit "the button", that is to say, the pressure point that will give him an instant KO.

[Toby]

Originally posted by SPJ
The practictioner has to study human anatomy, physiology, and TCM and herbs. That would take several years. The practice hm several years more.

It is in the realm of both CMA and TCM.
It only took BL 8 months IIRC to become a dim mak expert.

[Meat Shake]

She learns like the matrix and dances in the sky with the founder of kuk sool won, and does the "modified breast stroke" with gm sin.
You should know this by now.

[CaptinPickAxe]

She belives its okay to hit children in the neck and body after the age of three. With her Jedi Mind Tricks she has put the whole forum in pandamonium. She can break bricks with her iron will. When she coughs an angel gets its wings. When she ****s the gods blush. She can say the alphabet backwards while drinking a glass of water. Her qi is so strong that it holds back the apocalyps. Jesus is her brother. She tap dances on water. She can make spider silk out of her saliva.

SHE'S BLOOMING LOTUS! HEAR HER SQUEEL!

[SPJ]

Both 7 and Toby did a good research on the topic.

Dim Mak is widely used in almost of all schools of Wushu. It is held in secrecy.

For a beginner, you may use "Tiger claw" to pinch or hit the points.

The tiger claw is the most popular hand form in a lot of Wushu.

Need I say more.

I am already disclosing too much.

So beware of the tiger claw.

Good posts from OF and GF. But hush and hush!

Burden of truth. He who has the knowledge also bears the responsibilty of knowing.

[Ray Pina]

I don't know. It's all a little much for me.

Don't get me wrong, like I said I believe in and use selective trageting. But its the tone of the last post with the hush-hush and great responsibility.

Believe me, I know locations that do great damage, the Big Ocean, ect., but its not that kind of thing. It still all comes down to, can you get to me with authority?

To get as specific as you're talking, you have to be A LOT better than the other guy. It's hard enough to land a clean solid hook or cross on a trained fighter.

Maybe you are at that level though. It's hard to tell over the computer. I've met Chinese medicine students who dabble in martial arts who swear up and down they know dim mok because they know the creative and desctructive aspects of the five elements .... I can bend them over the table and give them a swift kick in the a$$.

[SPJ]

Agreed.

Qin Na and attacking selective point in the body require a lot of "settings".

All the vital areas will be protected by a good fighter.

We may discuss the numbness/pain points all we want.

The discussion of fatal points will be too much responsibility.

Some common points:

1. Union Valley (Her Gu) between the thumb and the index finger.

2. Nei Guan, Wai Guan and Lei Qiue on the medial side of wrists.

3. Qu Qi (Circular pond) on the outer side of the elbow.

4. A point behind the distal 25% ear lobe.

Pinch them see what happen to yourself.

I am not saying that I know everything. Far from it, I just study a lot, practice a lot and know a lot.

And of course, there are a lot that I do not know, either.

[SPJ]

I have heard of "Ice Palm" (Han Bing Zhang).

If your Qi gong or Nei Li are very very strong, you may produce or direct/focus intensive heat or coldness in your palm or your finger.

This Qi or energy cold or hot inflicts on acupoints or internal organ of the opponent, serious damage or even death may ensue.

That is what I heard.

I am biting my tounge. I have to shut up myself.

You may mobilize your Qi, that is tough enough.

How you may reduce or increase your focal body temperature beats me.

How one may transfer Qi or heat or coldness to other person is beyond me.

One other thing. I know there is a practice to punch or hit or point to damage the internal organ without bruising skin. This is more plausible.

Did witness all of these, nope. I have heard of them.

Just for the fun of it.

The truth is out there. Do not pin me on them.



:cool:

[Toby]

Thank you for your contributions, SPJ. I respect your knowledge.