This Just Makes Me Sick

[Water Dragon]

**edited out of respect for the dead**

*please continue silly argument*

[dodger87]

That is really disturbing. Drug f*cked gangsters.

[kungfu cowboy]

Very sad. I don't understand the mentality of people who commit murder. Disgusting cowards.

[SevenStar]

:(

[Shaolinlueb]

poor kid, poor family. i will say a preyer for them tonight. least i could do.

[Water Dragon]

:(

Things like this make it impossible for me to see why some people are gun advocates...

Bro, the reason I am a gun advocxate is because people like this exist.

WD - Chicago is still a little bit worse than SA, but you still dont want to **** around after dark in the wrong parts of town.

I don't plan on being in the hood anymore Bro.Ive worked real hard to escape it, and I'm not going back. (except to teach)

[MonkeySlap Too]

Meat...there is a preponderance of evidence that shows gun ownership prevents/reduces crime...far outweighing 'accidents.'

Also - I guarentee you that gene pool skimming was not a licensed gun owner.

Even more, I'm disturbed by how you make the connection from a criminal with an illegal fire arm committing murder, and responsible gun ownership.

What's next? Take all the knives away?

People get killed by cars, perhaps they should be taken away too.

Lets drop the victim mentality and take responsibility rather than abdicate it.

[Toby]

I think it's too late for you guys in the U.S. You will never get rid of guns even if you tried, so what's the point?

But here's a hypothetical Q for you - if you were in the situation where there were no guns (legal or illegal) in the U.S., would you feel the need to allow them to be imported for personal protection usage? Or is it in response to a perceived threat that you feel they're necessary? i.e. fight fire with fire.

[Radhnoti]

MS2 - "I'm disturbed by how you make the connection from a criminal with an illegal fire arm committing murder, and responsible gun ownership. ...
Lets drop the victim mentality and take responsibility rather than abdicate it."

MS2...layin' down the correct.

Toby, when researchers ask criminals what they fear most when committing a crime the answer is always that the person they're victimizing will have a firearm. Firearms are a tool...a tool that CAN make physically weaker individuals capable of winning a life and death struggle against a physically stronger attacker.

I think that it's an irresponsible government that strips it's weakest (and most lawful) citizens of their best means of defense.

[Toby]

But MS2 is assuming that legal gun owners = responsible gun owners. There's also an assumption that responsible gun owners are always responsible gun owners. Here's a recent example - the guy in Colorado that even we in Oz had all over our TV's. I'm sure he was a responsible bulldozer owner and gun owner for many years. Then one day he's had enough and decides to unleash a can of whoopass on his town. At least he was responsible enough to intentionally not target human life.

Radhnoti, you may have missed my point. I meant what if any guns (legal or not) didn't exist in the U.S. - would you still feel the right to bear arms would be a justifiable one (or a good one)? If you could start with a clean slate, would you want guns?

Like I said before, it's pretty philosophical because you're stuck with millions of them and it's probably impossible to get rid of them.

I'm pretty happy with our government's decision to (paraphrasing) get rid of guns. People with a legitimate reason to own them still can (e.g. farmers, sporting shooters, etc) but strict controls are placed on them. The main reason they were outlawed was Martin Bryant. Do a search on him if you want - it's an interesting story. This goes back to the beginning of my post - I'm sure he was a responsible gun owner for possibly years beforehand. All it took was one bad day.

[SevenStar]

In this hypothetical situation, do I still have to worry about people breaking into my home?

[CaptinPickAxe]

Guns are a double edged sword. They Kill and Protect. Usually to protect, though, is to kill....

[Toby]

7*,

This is what I'm wondering - is that why you (generic you) consider owning firearms necessary? I mean, you in particular 7* (only because I've seen pics and know a bit about your training) would be one of the people I would consider least likely to need a gun. I dunno, just asking the questions. I guess it depends on the perpetrator's (perceived and actual) mindset. I would say perps in Oz are less likely to be willing to kill and ideally would target unoccupied homes. Know what I'd rather see? Other methods of deterrent. I'd rather own a dog than a gun. Up the consequences - I'd rather see the death penalty introduced for break and enters. I'd rather see confiscation of vehicles etc for drink drivers.

It just seems that whenever a gun gets pulled it tends to get used. And if two or more guns get pulled, it seems difficult for anyone to back down. I've got no experience, so I'm going with popular media as well as news media.

[joedoe]

Toby, I think you and I probably see eye to eye on this issue. I think in the USA guns are just a fact of life. In a lot of ways they have played such a large part in shaping the mindset of the nation that they can't be removed.

However in Australia it is different, and I personally prefer not to have to live with a high proliferation of guns, with all the advantages and disadvantages that come with that. To me it is a personal choice, and I am not trying to convince anyone one way or another.

[Meat Shake]

Maybe I shouldnt have said anything. I forget how testy you all get when someone states beliefs different from your own.
I deleted the post to hopefully keep this from being derailed to a grossly redundant 32 page argument about why its ok or not ok to own a gun.
My condolences for the boys family and friends.

[CaptinPickAxe]

that what happens when you bring up gun control...

[Meat Shake]

Yup.
Sheeva.
I forgot.

[CaptinPickAxe]

hey.
wow.
still the same ol'?

[Meat Shake]

:o :o :o
Yup.
I am sleep now.

If the gun argument keeps rollin I give this thread.... I shoot for 20 pages that probably will look about the same as every other thread on gun ownership.

:o :o :o

[David Jamieson]

gun control isn't about guns, it's about control.

violence is a behaviour, not a device.

education is the solution and nothing stops a bullet like a job.

that's all I got, but they're good ones.

regards

p.s I have no idea what this post is about seeing as it was edited.
no doubt some horrible twisted crime by one or more humans on one or more humans.

so I can't comment on anything like circumstance, socio-economic or otherwise. But I can say that the most fitting end for any rabid animal is to be put out of their misery. A bullet accomplishes this quickly.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Toby - the death penalty for breaking and entering?!?

This would probably cause more innocents to die than gun ownership ever has. Doo have any idea how corrupt most local prosecutoors offices are? Heck, back in Illinois, Jim Ryan made his career putting innocent people in jail for serious crimes and not prosecuting real criminals if it looked like he could lose. It was all about his winning score.

While there are some good and non-corrupt people doing good work, I would never lower the threshold on capital punishment. The system is built for abuse.

Besides, once again you are abdicating personal responsibility for that mysterious 'other' the government. Which by the way is the single highest cause of human death in history. Bigger than gun ownership. :p

Which why it's good to have as much transperancy and checks and balances as possible. Frankly a government should be good at colecting taxes, maintaining the defense, keeping infrastructure working, maintain the judiciary, and dealing with strategic materials such as atomic stuff. Anything else is a slippery road back to serfdom. Which is something I for one would not enjoy, no matter how cozy your overlords might make it.

[Toby]

I was being facetious with that one. I can't foresee the death penalty being reintroduced in Oz any time in the near to medium future, not for any crime. Confiscating vehicles for ****y driving I'd agree with, though. I'm all for upping the consequences of crime.

I guess I just find it hard to relate to you guys' situation. In some ways our culture is so similar, in others so different. I agree with you and Kung Lek on the personal responsibility/education thing. But it seems that's just as unlikely as gun control, doesn't it? Lots of people out there to educate ...