Smaller People!

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


One of my younger friends that works out with our group asks this question the other night;


How do you know if an art is good for smaller sized people?


Now! Besides the obvious stuff like fighting up close and making use of whole body power etc what would your answer be?


Regards,

[sihing]

Jim, my reply would be something like this, which I am stealing from something my Sifu said in class once.
"For a art to be effective, it first of all has to be simple. You can break the bricks, stretch to the ceiling, punch 1000 mph, but if you have nothing in the way of logic behind it then you do not have anything. Our Brain is what seperates us from the animals, therefore a martial art that relys on the science of movement and pure logic, rather than strength or speed, would be the more effective one. Attributes like this are universal and transend limitations, thereby making it effective for people of all sizes, smaller or larger, and all ages".

This was one of the primary reasons why WC was developed, IMO. To be available at all times regardless of age or size.

sihing

[Jim Roselando]

Hiya Sihing!


Excellent reply!

Definetely the simple actions that do not reply on brut strength would be a pro for the smaller person!

Anyone else?


Regards,

[curtis]

Thats not bad.
but you should give him some examples,of how the body works.
for an example leverage, have him put his arms together, as if doing a curl,you can place two fingers in his hands,and stand with both feet rather close, stable but not strong. now have him do a curl. he should pull you towards him self and off your base.
now have him do the same thing,BUT this time have him start with his hands below his elbows, now when he curls, he will pull himself towards you. He cant matain a base,You should quickle remind him without a base you dont have any power.
the art of traping alows you to feel and take his streangh away from him just as you did when you placed his arms below his elbos.
its pretty basic but the point comes out clear. Trapping is the art where feeling, can replace streangh.

[anerlich]

Theory schmeory.

It should be empirically demonstrable that the art can be used by a skilled smaller person can control or defeat a larger and heavier person with less skill.

This can be readily determined via sparring, rolling, etc.

[S.Teebas]

I think the proof is in actually demonstrating that smaller people can dominate larger people in a sparing situation. This shows that it works, and you dont need to rely on a fancy explination that may or may not convince him (if thats your aim).

Actions speak louder than words.

[anerlich]

Actions speak louder than words.

Amen.

[PaulH]

It has to do more with brain, courage, and skills for a small potato. The little guy should know for instance how to make the enemy's strength his. While there are many ways to borrow strength and power in WC due to the strong influence of "Arts of War" as well as the theory of Yin and Yang on its tactics and strategies, one still has to practice a lot to develop appropriate skills that make victory possible against the big guys.

Regards,
PH

[sihing]

I agree with Anerlich, if the skill is the same then and only then is speed, size and strength a factor. But since the majority of the people in this world do not have the WC skill then the chances of meeting someone like this is nill. Of course the skills have to be obtained through practice as well as a thorough understanding of the combat stategy, before the effectiveness of WC can be used.

sihing

[curtis]

s.teebas posted
S.Teebas
I think the proof is in actually demonstrating that smaller people can dominate larger people in a sparing situation. This shows that it works, and you dont need to rely on a fancy explination that may or may not convince him (if thats your aim).

I hate to disagree with you, but your demonstration would show nothing. Sparing is a game, its not real. It would show one person can beat another,(and thats a BIG IF.spairing normaly dosent look good enough to inpress anyone!) it would do nothing to prove that the smaller person can learn HOW TO DO IT.
The art of wingchun is concepts and princeables, not geting into the ring. (thats boxing at the best, and kick boxing at the worst!)

If you want students to learn,you must show them that THAY can do it. Who cares if you can do it! the student is there,beacuse thay want to know if thay, will be able to learn.
but that is just my oppion.

[anerlich]

It would show one person can beat another,

Yes a smaller person beating a bigger one in this case, which is presumably what Jim's friend is interested in.


(and thats a BIG IF.spairing normaly dosent look good enough to inpress anyone!)

Realistic sparring never looks pretty, real fights even less so. Performance overrides precision. Looking pretty when fighting only happens in movies.


The art of wingchun is concepts and princeables, not geting into the ring. (thats boxing at the best, and kick boxing at the worst!)

You don't grapple, or watch MMA, huh? Martial arts have to be about fighting efficacy, practice not theory. No got hurt from having concepts and princeables [sic] yelled at them, other than perhaps from being bored to death. Theories are just ideas until experiments (in this case sparring, fights) provide the supporting evidence in the real world.


it would do nothing to prove that the smaller person can learn HOW TO DO IT.

That makes no sense. Obviously the smaller guy that beats the bigger one learned how to do it, so presumably other smaller guys can as well. Quoting theory at someone without backing it up with demonstations gives even less assurance that they can learn to use the stuff in the real world.

Most people want to see product demonstrations, or do test drives, before they buy. Anyone who buys on spec or the salesperson's spiel alone deserves everything they get.


I hate to disagree with you

I doubt that that emotion is reciprocated.

[yylee]

my answer is simple:

If you walk into a MA school and you see only students of strong build, well-muscled types, then you know the art is for bigger and stronger guys. Since lots of muscle and strength is required, smaller guys like me will eventually give up, pound for pound there is hardly any match.

If you see a mix of students, tall, short, thin, fat all work out together, then you know the art works for smaller guys.


If you find those whole body power stuff difficult to explain, you may want to try this one.

[captain]

im five foot five.[then evil mike j fox!!]after one wck lesson,i much bigger guy threw an unxpected jab at my face.instantly blocked by a bong sau.plus i like judo,and once threw a much bigger guy onto the floor during a college fight [yes,im that popular].you cant let you size [lack of] stop you from doing things.except pro basketball.

russ.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey guys,


This is all useful stuff. Nothing better nothing worst.

There is one thing that nobody has yet to mention and it was the first thing that came to mind outside the obvious stuff.


Under The Bridge Striking!


Smaller framed people will not typically be head hunters but rather head hunted (if thats a good way to put it). So, when you are facing larger opponents it is very important for your art to display a good arsenal of knowing how to counter attack and attack under the bridge. Its a very big part of Leung Jan's teaching in Koo Lo and one of the key points in knowing if an art is good for smaller people IMO!


Any other thoughts or thoughts on this?


Regards,

[kungfu cowboy]

Wasn't ther ea dude in the NBA who was not standard basketball player size?

[Losttrak]

Spud Webb? The guy who was like 5' and some change, who could still dunk?

[Neckbones]

MA's can be for all people regardless of shape or size. However, there are certain advantages and disadvantages depending on stature. My Sifu, originally from China, is only about 5'6", 130 lbs. But, he has explosive raw power and speed. Now, one of the taller todei's in the class (probably 6'1", 210 lbs.) has excellent reach and power but lacks explosive speed. I could go on and on, but i think you get the idea. Just my 2 cents.

[IRONMONK]

what is so special about wing chun that allows a smaller and weaker person(compared to other arts) to handle a stronger person with a longer reach?

[PaulH]

One of my coaches was a French woman named Chan Keo. Though I am bigger and stronger physically, I could not roll hands with her for more than 1 roll. Her small frame structure is very grounded and her penetrating, darting arrow-like hands just seemed unstoppable. Using her petite size advantage, she just uprooted me and tossed me consistently once we were in contact. The WC method works for everyone, but very few were willing to do what it takes to get the skills.

Of course, can't end this post without mentioning WSL - another small guy but acted like a giant. =)

Regards,
PH

[Tom Kagan]

My first thought would be to understand why the question was asked. My interpretataion is the question is not as straightforward as it sounds.

(My SWAG estimate is this person has been working out with your group for either about 6 months or 2 1/2 years or so. Those two times seem to be milestones of a sort.)

If he/she is small: Not asking about the art. What he/she is really asking is how do they know if they're any good? Size does matter: Is he/she screwing up or is his/her teacher screwing them?

If he/she is large: Becoming more cognizant of the "size matters" issue and is curious as to whether there is "something extra" they can find elsewhere for their own training.

If he/she is average: Indicating they are feeling uncertain as to whether they are being a good training partner to students other than those who match their size.

NOTE: small/large/average are relative to their classmates, not in general, and also is a reference to the relative strength of a person.

DISCLAIMER: Your Mileage May Vary. Obviously, I don't know your friend personally. Thus, none of the above may apply at all to his/her situation.

[foolinthedeck]

for me the reverse is more interesting
i am 6'4" tall and most of the time smaller people have no problems beating me up - the reason is because they have to be good enough to overcome my natural physical reach etc. so its very easy to see that wing chun is good for smaller people. but for bigger people its not so easy, this is because every time i hit someone they can always tell themselves that it was only because i was taller. of course if this is so it only suggests the opposite of my first claim, if you doubt your abilities to defend with skill and put the reason for getting hit on anothers physical advantage, then you have proved that in fact wing chun is not good for smaller people...
confused?

skill is everything

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Tom!


Truly not a loaded question! He is a good guy who started WC about 6 months ago 9and is in absolute love with the art) but did about 3 years Gin Soon Tai Chi and then did a good ammount Small Circle Jiu Jitsu/grappling. A good kid!

Some of the boys were talking as they were all about 5' 5" tall (like me) and discussing good arts for smaller stature people. Many of the South Fist arts are good for smaller people as they are in-fighting arts and thats when the question came up.


Hey Paul!


An art that teaches up-rooting skill is a very good comment! Smaller sized people will have a easier time getting up and into someone COG. Yet! A smaller person should have an art that teaches how to control someone into their own game. Bring them into your own space and sink their structure!


Good stuff guys!

[kj]

Originally posted by crimsonking
The only answer comes from within. Its a matter of faith. With respect to training - a smaller person needs to work on two things - power generation, and footwork. As a smaller person myself, i've trained those two things obsessively, even slightly neglecting other things.

Good points crimsonking, re power generation and footwork.

At the risk of being intrusive, I'd like to add the following to the list of attributes and skills important for the smaller person: position, precision, sensitivity, and timing. All are interrelated of course.

Coincidentally (or not) hard uncontrolled sparring is not the best suited means of refining these types of attributes, though it can certainly be useful for developing other and different types of attributes.

With patience, diligence, and increasing intensity and scope of work at an appropriate pace, experience and demonstrable results can supercede faith.


When you know you have sufficient power to destroy anyone, size becomes relevant.

That's either a whole lot of power or a whole lot of faith. ;)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
Wasn't ther ea dude in the NBA who was not standard basketball player size?

Where I come from (Kentucky), basketball was hugely popular long before there was any notion of the NBA. It was a game of "skill" invented for "normal" sized people, including those on the short side of normal who were often known for their outstanding speed and agility. The height of the basket was designed to be a challenge for all. Over time, with increasing popularity, and furthered by the advent of commercialism, emphasis shifted to extreme physical attributes for the competitive edge. The sport as we know and see it in venues like the NBA has changed forever from what it once was. Not entirely unlike some elements of the martial arts world. ;)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Matrix]

Originally posted by kj
That's either a whole lot of power or a whole lot of faith. ;) Probably a good combination of both. :)

KJ , crimsonking and Jim.
Some great observations. From my limited experience, many martial arts rely on executing techniques faster and harder than the opponent. All other things being equal, this will most likely leave the smaller person at a disadvantage. A battle of raw force is not the domain that the smaller person wants to get involved in. Wing Chun, IMO, offers principles that allow the smaller person to overcome that raw force with the innate power of structure, position, precision, sensitivity, footwork and timing that you have referred to. The person who learns these principles to a superior degree should prevail, regardless of size.

Bill

[kj]

Originally posted by crimsonking
Re whole lotta faith - read whole lotta training. It's all faith anyway, hard sparring included.

Unless you are regularly engaging in real fights (not the sparring kind) you're still going on faith that those 'demonstrable results' will translate into real combat ability.

I read you loud and clear now, Crimson.

Regards,
- kj

[yuanfen]

On the money Crimsonking and KJ--

There is a difference between simulation and actual fighting.

Chi sao is wing chun simulation, sparring traditionally is boxing's simulation, takedowns/matwork is grappling simulation. There are different levels of sparring(who, what, when, how), same for matwork and same for chi sao... which involves many different things. It is neither a mechanical drill-nor a little rolling and then
tapping. It can incorporate an incredibly large range of possibilities.

Lots of folks that I have seen dont know what they are doing when they say that they are doing chi sao.

((No problem with anyone who thinks they need sparring or matwork. People come to the table from different directions.))


Real fighting is real fighting and there- what works in one fight may not work in another. And absolutely real fighters eventually lose. Justa matter of time. Have known lots of streetfighters-most are either dead, in prison or essentially finished.