Sports versus Street

[KnightSabre]

This debate seems to go round and round,

Here is something my BJJ coach Matt Thornton from SBG had to say on the topic.

"Forgive me for venting a bit. . .if this is old news for you, I hear that. No worries.
I was asked recently why I choose to ALWAYS emphasize the fact that street vs sport is usually a false premise. As opposed to placing emphasis on the difference.

It's a good question, and here is my answer.

The delivery systems always transcend the venue, and the delivery systems do not change.

Said another way: Plans change upon contact and the circumstances will dictate the tactics. But YOUR root skill in the delivery systems will always remain a constant. As does your conditioning. And neither can be faked. Once the fight is on, it is that root skill in the delivery systems, and your body itself (conditioning), that will see you through.

In other words, almost all the key escapes from head and arm position in Judo & BJJ are exactly the same, regardless of whether it is a gi match, a no gi match, MMA, or in a streetfight in a parking lot somewhere.

Here is a clear example of what I am speaking to.

A few Months ago at a seminar in Canada we had a more traditional Gung Fu advocate visit on Sunday. When he walked in we happened to be working on headlock, and head and arm escapes. (Although during the weekend we had already covered the bases of stand up, clinch, etc.)

During lunch this person happened to be sitting next to me, and he began asking a lot of very leading questions about street vs sport. . .and why would we spend time on a technique like the one prior to lunch when in reality you 'never' want to be on the ground in a "streetfight", etc. Port2002 may remember this conversation well as he happened to be sitting across from me as this guy went on about the all the differences between sports and combat, etc.

I explained how indeed one wouldn't want to be on the ground in a fight. In fact, you don't want to be in a fight at all! However, you may find yourself there and as such better know how to escape. And the escapes don't magically change for that position on asphalt and with punches. They remain the same.

He was not convinced, and was very confident that he would A) never be taken down into such a position, and B) if he where he would escape easily by biting, gouging, and using his streetfighting techniques.

I asked him if he had tested that theory? He was a little taken back by that question, and so I told him we would test it first hand when we get back to the Gym. Because you don't want to just ass-ume such a thing as that.

When we got back I gently put a head and arm on him, he tried to bite and I pushed his forehead up in such a way as to make that impossible. I also told him I may be wearing a leather jacket. . .so don't rely on such a thing. He reached for my face. . .something ALL grapplers are used to from newbies stuck in this position. I just ducked my head and placed my thumb on his eye. . .something he could not defend from his position. And of course, he was stuck there.

Predictably, he stated I was just too big. So I had another Instructor that was present there hold him down. (Mike Sweeney). Mike has a SOLID purple belt game, as well as all the other delivery systems. . .but he is also about 100lbs lighter then me. And a good 70lbs lighter then this guy.

Of course Mike was able to hold him down easily.

So much for escaping.

He then said ok, but he would never be taken down into that position. And a second of so later Mike threw a headlock on him standing, tossed him, and landed in a solid head and arm.

So much for staying standing.

Then he wanted to try it. After all, it must just be an impossible position to escape from!?

Again predictably, Mike escaped within a second or so, and had his back and a rear naked choke. He did this a few times to him if I remember correctly. "

At this point the gentleman had to concede that he had a lot of misconceptions, and poor assumptions. Based on the reality of what just took place with a person 70 lbs lighter then him.
Then, instead of smiling at the brilliance of seeing the truth for the first time, he asked me if I could teach him the moves that Mike used right now. As if I could offer him one or two moves that would magically allow him to do the same thing.

I then explained that Mike could do what he did only because he had put in HUNDREDS of HOURS of ALIVE, athletic training and drilling.

In other words. . .SPORTS!

He didn't like the answer. . but was unable to argue it based on the truth of the events he had just experienced first hand.

The moral of the story?

The venue changes, but "YOUR" root skill in the delivery systems is ALWAYS a constant. As are the training methods.

One of the big dangers with people who "claim" to be motivated primarily by self defense is that they will willfully ignore this fact. And as such, they never really learn how to fight, or develop their body as a whole.

When you meet these people face to face, as I have on many occasions. . .this fact becomes pretty self evident. And it also becomes painfully obvious how a HEALTHY athletic approach would be a thousand times better for such people. They would be happier, more confident, and really learn to fight, if they would simply lay down that fantasy and train like an athlete.

But there are enough people who will provide the answer one would like so as to make avoiding such reality possible. It's not a healthy approach, but it's a popular one. And it usually results in training that is predicated on pain compliance, tag, and psychobable. None of which will likely stop an aggressive and angry attacker bent on truly hurting you.

That is just one of the multiple reasons why I as an individual always speak to the need for athletic training. . .and don't play into the fallacies often reported regarding street vs sport.

And that is also just one of the many reasons why all the SBGi coaches are required to have a very high level of skill in the delivery systems. With a minimum of purple belt for SBGi Coaches, and at the FI level brown or black in BJJ. . .along with SOLID stand up, clinch, MMA, weapons defense, and a clear understanding of self defense musts based on awareness, common sense, street smarts, and maturity.

When it comes to real self defense a high level of skill in the delivery systems is NOT optional. It's required.

This does not mean you need to become what Tom Oberhue would call "a meathead". IE, a stereotypical bad guy jock that measures themselves based on who they can beat up. Far from it! You could be a housewife, a child in 4th grade, a lawyer working 50 hour work weeks behind a desk, a family man with five kids to support, a college students whose priority needs to be study, an artist looking for forms of self expression, whatever.

It also does not mean you have to lay YOUR trip on others about the need for public competition, pushing yourself, etc. Rather, YOU do what YOU need to do, and with compassion and love help others do what they need to do. All the while staying true to YOURself.

That requires a ruthless bent towards introspection. Are you telling the truth to your students, or giving them what they want to hear. Are you laying YOUR trip on your students, or helping them navigate theirs?

It means you have to be honest with yourself about where you are at, what you want, why you want it, and who your laying it on. .. .and then. . . train smart, train healthy, train Alive, and take care of your TEMPLE.

As Desnudo has stated: 'We are beyond street, this is off road baby!'

www.straightblastgym.com

"Freedom is Awareness not trapped by attraction or aversion".



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[David Jamieson]

Never say "never".

There are no definitive answers and one way of training is not necessarily better than another.

As the so called traditionalist close their eyes to the sportive combatants, the same is true in reverse. Both camps lose from this action.

The problem with martial arts is in it's individual practitioners, the rest is information. Take it or leave it.

cheers

[Ray Pina]

Delivery system, delivery system, delivery system .... every martial artist should understand what this means.

Also, in my experience, martial artist that always talk down "sport fighting" and say it's so different than the street .... aren't trained well enough to handle either situation. It's just a nice excuse to avoid putting their training to the test.

Of course on the street there are always unknown variables -- nothing you can do about that but adapt and use them the best to your ability -- but if you're training and believe you have some skill sets to enter fights (sport) against other guys who are training and believe they have some skill sets ..... who's better prepared for that street encounter?

The street variables will not change, but the guy who has been fighting skilled players will be more calm and familiar with the aproaching violence, his training and fight experience will kick in.

This is so **** obvious its really not even funny that the debate takes place. The debate is 100% fueled by folks insecure with their training.

New students shouldn't be fighting, they should be developing their delivery system. Old guys (over 40) who have developed their delivery system and put it to test, now have a real model on which to judge new refinments to their technique. Young guys (18-38) with 3+ years of training who do not test are fooling themselves.

That is not a politically correct statement .... but its a true one.

[MasterKiller]

Young guys (18-38) with 3+ years of training who do not test are fooling themselves. They are only fooling themsleves if their perception of their own skill-set differs from the reality of their abilities.

[Dim Wit Mak]

KnightSaber: Excellent post. This controversy will never end and, as a matter of fact, is fun. I am a big fan of TMA, and the value of training in them for many different reasons is not something I question. But if a person cannot use their whole body as a weapon, and is not familiar with ground fighting, there is a major ***** in their armor. My first love has always been five animal kung fu, but I soon realized if someone ever got me on the ground, I was in trouble. Grappling is a major part of my kenpo system, and it is invaluable because of all the guys who want to get you off your feet.

My major concern is that we would have just as closed a mind as the TCMA gentleman you referred to, and say that traditional styles no longer have anything to teach us. Kung fu does indeed have much to offer in terms of health, exercise, and even fighting prowess.

[Ray Pina]

I guess that's right.

If a guy joins martial arts but never faces off against a resisting foe but knows he'll get his a$$ kicked even if he's a black belt ... then everything koshur.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I guess that's right.

If a guy joins martial arts but never faces off against a resisting foe but knows he'll get his a$$ kicked even if he's a black belt ... then everything koshur. Personally, I don't think it's either/or.

Most kinds of strenuous atheltic pursuits are worthwhile and can help you develop skills that aid in a physical confrontation. I know some Track and Field guys that are in great shape, and could probably take half the guys here just based on sheer athleticism and conditioning, even though they never spar, let alone step into a ring.

[Tak]

Originally posted by KnightSabre
The delivery systems always transcend the venue, and the delivery systems do not change.

Said another way: Plans change upon contact and the circumstances will dictate the tactics. But YOUR root skill in the delivery systems will always remain a constant. As does your conditioning. And neither can be faked. Once the fight is on, it is that root skill in the delivery systems, and your body itself (conditioning), that will see you through.
So, by this argument, someone who is skilled at point sparring or form demonstration will be able to take those skills from the venue onto the street and apply them?

[Vash]

Originally posted by Tak

So, by this argument, someone who is skilled at point sparring or form demonstration will be able to take those skills from the venue onto the street and apply them?

Indeed. A point fighter would undoubtadly land a nice, clean backfist at the get go, then give his opponent his back, knowing he wouldn't be coming after him.

And the forms champs, dang, they gonna p\^/n all over those guys barbarically trying to hit them.

After all, this is martial arts. It's not about violence.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Vash
And the forms champs, dang, they gonna p\^/n all over those guys barbarically trying to hit them. Are you implying that placing well in forms competitions means you cannot fight?

[yenhoi]

point sparring and forms competition are training methods and venues, not delivery systems.

:eek:

[Vash]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Are you implying that placing well in forms competitions means you cannot fight?

Yes, yes I am.

:eek:

Seriously though, no. It was funny. Placing well in competitive forms has nothing to do with actually being able to apply the forms techniques and principles, but by the same token, it does not say that one would not be an effective fighter.

yenhoi:

Have you taken a look at a good bit of modern crotty? The methods used to improve one's odds of scoring well during point sparring competitions have become a system unto themselves, in some cases completely replacing the previously effective karate system from which they were spawned.


For the record, I fight exactly like I train my sets (kata):
with combinations and broken rhythm.

[Ray Pina]

Thanks, Yenhoi, you beat me too it.

E-Chuan's delivery system: The three connections (hand and foot; elbow and knee; hips (ming men) and shoulder

pretty much, no matter what happens, I want to greet you driving off my back leg with a straight back, making contact with my shielding, or better yet, shielding/striking.

At no time is there an inside to out, or an outside to in blocking, it all comes from the center and covers my head. The elbows block the flanks

On contact, I want to deepen my force, utilising the Bear power, or the shoulder/upper back .... which is similiar to holding a heavy weight close to your body and lifting it like curls or a glass of beer, but the intention is on the change and plane the elbow travels. This does not have to be up, can travel up, down, side to side but it always goes in, the direction is just in relation to your limb, but the power always goes in ..... NO SIDE TO SIDE MOVEMENT.

This is just a blue print for a strong structure. Of course there is a lot of changes involved because the other guy isn't just sitting there .... but it's a strating point. On the ground, you lose the back leg driving, but you leanr how to maintain the strong structure, still no side to side movement, and you use the entire body and changing it for leverage .... like a spinning alligator.

This is having a system! It makes fighting a lot easier. It takes out the guess work. This system may not be fore everyone, but you need a go to system that does not rely on reaction: you do this, then I do this, then you'll do this, then I'll do that. It's not so much what you do but hown you do it, the structure and intention.

.....

MasterKiller, I'm highly against your thinking.... being a good athlete = better fighter. It is true to a point, but also relates to the poisonous thinking of coached yelling out, "Hit him harder!" "Kick faster!."

That's not coaching, that's cheerleading. Tell ya what. Want to get rich? Buy low, sell high.

It's in the how

[Tak]

Originally posted by yenhoi
point sparring and forms competition are training methods and venues, not delivery systems.

:eek:

Right, so if the delivery system always transcends the venue...

[yenhoi]

I dont think they should be venues, but since people compete in them and have tournaments about them, that makes them venues.

Its the same thing if boxers had heavy bag hitting competitions. Its just a training method, and only some or alot of it translates.

At anyrate my opinion of the "skills" and "delivery systems" developed for/by these training methods (point sparring and forms competition) are sub-par to skills and delivery systems developed to compete against fully resisting opponents. Not to say they dont develop and train important attributes, techniques, skills, or principles at some level.

Vash: I have no expierence with crotty, but I wouldent be surprised. Other arts, styles and methods as well.... take the fencing threads for example. The wrist flick thing, etc. Being a good fencer might not make you the best sword fighter, but develops good attributes, techniques, skills, and principles. But I dont see them having any lunge competitions.

:eek:

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
MasterKiller, I'm highly against your thinking.... being a good athlete = better fighter. It is true to a point, but also relates to the poisonous thinking of coached yelling out, "Hit him harder!" "Kick faster!."

That's not coaching, that's cheerleading. Tell ya what. Want to get rich? Buy low, sell high.

It's in the how Sure, it's in the how. But knowledge without the ability to apply it is just academic.

How many university business professors run their own businesses?

How many businesses are run by people without a degree in business?

[David Jamieson]

delivery systems? yeesh more lingo to bring schism LOL.

I think there is an assumption here, that Traditional Martial arts do not train against fully resisting opponents using techniques from the given style.

Well, that's not true.
It is true that martial arts in pretty much all venues and ways are rampantly commericialized in teh east and the west, no difference there.

but because one training method takes a more gradual method and is inclusive of martial arts but not exclusive of it doesn't mean it's an inferior training method.

It could be said that training in mma styles is inferior because it leads to injuries early on which in the long run are no good for the player.

Therefore, you could make a case that a slower pace is better and superior method of training. THat isn't to say the person training will not learn to use the style in a manner that mirrors as close to reality as one can get without causing serious damage or fatal damage.

Anyway, wtf does everyone think jkd or jun fan kungfu is about? it's modern, it encourages full contact sparring along with myriad other styles out there such as clf, wc or hung fist or what have you.

I think that wrapping western jargon around something doesn't prove anything. Any tech found in any mma is found in it's traditional roots. Call it what you want.

I think that if a person wants to fight in a competitive venue then they should train for that.

I think that if a person wants hand to hand combat skills they can get those from any number of places including totally traditional venues or mma.

I think if a person wants to train for "reality street" then they need to learn how to use firearms, mace/pepper spray, tazers, knives and club weapons as well as h2h.

I also think that in a traditional venue,many people drop out before they get to a level of proficiency where they can actually effectively use the art, but they can certainly swing a fist or a kick like anyone else.

as for ground work, well, practice ground work techs.

what is better? neither. It's a personal choice to fit your personal perspective and wants.

If you don't like point sparring and forms demonstration, don't do them. If you don't like sportive combat, don't do that. If you don't want to be in street fights, be aware! Don't put yourself in a situation where the probabilty rises.

And finally, knowing that anything could happen at anytime, then any sort of training is better than none at all, and frankly, you could be the grandest of the grandmasters or the toughest of teh ufc fighters but you can always be cut and you can always be shot and you can always be beaten to death by a mob.

anyway...just saying

cheers

[yenhoi]

So its what works that works?

:D

[David Jamieson]

yes :p

[Ray Pina]

MK, of course you need ability. But if you put your money on ability alone you are destined to lose...

Are you the fastest? I'm not. That's why I don't bother trying to time inside/outside blocking. I use an umbrella theory and cover infront of me.

Are you the strongest? I'm not, that's why I train technical power, not mecessarily physical power .... though you need that, too.

Your college prof who teaches business without ever owning or running one is like the senior student who has never fought. Any tough kid ofs the street can kick his a$$ (the "un-schooled" business owner).

....

Kung Lek,

Why does it have to take long and be gradual? To fill the teacher's pocket?

I agree that one should build oneself up while training to avoid injury and that's what gear is for. But this is a contact game. You will get nicked and bruised .... no way around it.

I know lots of guys who pay and pay and pay and get forms and all sorts of Golden Turtles and Monk Spaged and pay and pay and pay and five, seven, ten years later are no better fighters than the kids standing on the corner ..... why? Because they are not training to fight.

This is what I meant about guys fooling themselves. Real simple: You training martial arts? I mean, do you really have a desire to learn MARTIAL ARTS?

Than God **** it roll up the sleaves and get ready. For the next six months we're drilling some principles until you can do them in your sleep and then save some money bro, because you'll need head gear and gloves and elbow pands and chin pads and if you want get a chest protecter too. Now, 1 to 1.5 years later, you're banging at least once a week and still working those drills.

In two years you don't know one God **** form but you take many forms expressing a few solid ideas. You don't know any Chinese, don't know how to tie the sash properly, don't own any lung fu slippers, but you can e-mail anyone on this board and say, "Hey, I'll be in your hood next week, want to get together and train a bit."

And when you say that, it's a polite way of saying, let's cross hands, which is a polite way of saying let's see what you got, which is a polite way of saying let's fight .... even if its toned down and friendly.

One way of training is to develope someone comfortable with violence and someone able to control a violent situation even somewhat.

Then there is a lot of jerking off and self deception (not self defense) and always saying "later, it will all come together later" and "We're not that kind of school, we train to avoid fights." Who doesn't look to avoid fights? But all it takes is me looking to fight you. You can choose to turn the other cheak if you want, that's your business.

Now none of this has anything to do with style. It's about aproach to training and I've seen some core karate schools that train MUCH more realistic than most kung fu schools I've seen.

I don't blame the teachers trying to make some money, I blame the students. Because they know full well what they are doing. But they enjoy claiming martial artist and doing some forms at the family BBQ and doing the high spinning kick.

The real martial artist is a grouchy, mangey dog that bites your hand when you pet it. Not a fluffy poodle that licks your boots.

[red5angel]

yawn. This is one of those subjects that pops up often, usually starts off with soem article from some guy who has something to prove, and that's typically that his art rocks and yours doesn't or your style of training sucks compared to his.
The reality is that while we all know a good martial artist, sport or otherwise, can operate on the street or in the ring, both of those arenas are approached differently.
I odn't train to score points, cause I'm not interested in getting points, I'm interested in stopping someone from hurting me as fast as possible. That's not to say that training to score points doesn't translate to the street, just that street fighting doesn't necessarily translate to the ring. It doesn't make it any less, it's just the training is different.

[DragonzRage]

Although i feel that Matt Thornton has the tendency to overanalyze/over-explain, his basic points are always very valid.

With regards to the different competition venues, its as simple as this: The closer the format represents an actual fighting situation, the more the skills you apply in the competition relate to real fighting. In other words, competing in full contact/high resistance fighting formats such as MMA, muay thai, boxing, and submission grappling would be the best thing to help one develop functional fighting skills. Point sparring helps insofar as developing the timing to execute techniques. But the highly restrictive rules and artificial/stylized format take away the full resistance and need for powerful follow-thru. And it also negates most of the real attacks you'd likely face in a street fight. I think doing point sparring is better than no competition at all, but you just gotta keep in mind that it will condition tons of bad habits and false expectations for actual fighting. To a certain extent, the full contact formats will do this as well, but they still have MUCH greater benefit to your practical skill sets. As for forms competition, it doesn't condition your fighting ability anymore than ballet, figure skating, and interpretative dance.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
MK, of course you need ability. But if you put your money on ability alone you are destined to lose... It depends on A) What you are losing and B) Against whom.


Your college prof who teaches business without ever owning or running one is like the senior student who has never fought. Any tough kid ofs the street can kick his a$$ (the "un-schooled" business owner).....[/B] Why do you always automatically assume anyone who doesn't fight on a regular basis will lose every fight they're ever in? Do you think street thugs are really out there training, getting their wind up, just waiting to destroy all wanna-be martial artists?

If two kids, with no training between them fight, one will win. Usually, it's the guy with more athleticism and conditioning.

If two kids fight, both with 5 years hardcore training, one will win. Usually, it's the guy with more athleticism and conditioning.

[yenhoi]

Wrong, MK.

Fighters, people on the street, martial artists, etc, have other attribute sthat do not contribute to athleticism or conditioning, mainly expierence, knowledge, and sensitivity. These can only be confirmed (gained) versus real opponents. If someone has fought more, but is less athletic and conditioned then his opponent, he can still easily win. This is very true in reality situations where the odds may be stacked (and probably will) against one of the participants (the victum.) Your examples are overly simple. In the ring or in any sport format, this is much less true, because all of these "unfair" variables are eliminated almost completly.

Fight more = have more of the good stuff.

Make all of your variables for each fighter equal and what do you have left? Just luck and maybe wits.

:cool:

[Ray Pina]

"Why do you always automatically assume anyone who doesn't fight on a regular basis will lose every fight they're ever in? Do you think street thugs are really out there training, getting their wind up, just waiting to destroy all wanna-be martial artists?"

A person who never fought has just as good of a chance of winning a fight as someone who has never shot a basketball of hitting a foul shot .... maybe, maybe not.

The chances of someone who has never really fought of beating a "street thug", which by the definition implies rowdy, violent, tough guy, is now like that same person hitting a 3 pointer .... it can happen, but the odds are stacked against them.

Of course if the street fight virgin is 360lbs and the "thug" 130 it's different. But the nature of the street thug is that he won't attack that man unless armed.

Again, I'm not taling about "competition", I'm talking about being a martial artist. How long have you trained? I'm sure you have passed x amount of MA not related to your school.

If you play chess and I play chess don't we want to see who's better? If you're a fighter and I'm a fighter .......

Now, the problem here is that if you're not really training to be a fighter you will be scared. Why is that topic being avoided? No shame in it, only natural. Of course one would be scared of a foreign thing, especially where one can get hurt. The point is to become familiar.

You'd think nothing of playing a stranger in Mortal Combat on X-box right? As a long time MA an exchange of hands should be no different, no big deal.

[MasterKiller]

My point is just that everyone gets overly simplistic when they say "you either fight X times a year or else you'll lose on the street." I'm well aware you need to test your stuff against a "fully-resisiting opponent™."


Make all of your variables for each fighter equal and what do you have left? Just luck and maybe wits. Unfortunately, the only time this happens is when identical twins fight. Otherwise, one person almost always has certain characteristics the other doesn't--more strength, flexibility, wind, speed, training, or a combination of those.

The guy with more advantages usually wins. Training is just another part of the equation.

[yenhoi]

Unfortunately, the only time this happens is when identical twins fight.

Thats what I wanted you to say!

So it comes down to the individuals and the specific variables. Thats why "complete" fighters need to have a formula that has slots for all sorts of variables... and there are more economical and more realistic ways to train to actually have a formula to even try to apply.

Formulas exist, right?

:eek:

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by yenhoi
So it comes down to the individuals and the specific variables. Thats why "complete" fighters need to have a formula that has slots for all sorts of variables... OK.


and there are more economical and more realistic ways to train to actually have a formula to even try to apply.OK. That doesn't have anything to do with what I was saying, but it's a good answer nonetheless.


Formulas exist, right? I dunno, do they? If styles don't exist, or techniques, can a forumula exist? Remember T-R-E-E. :p

[Meat Shake]

Fighting in a competition has little to do with fighting ability, so much as you are actually fighting.
It doesnt matter what venue you "test your stuff" at, so long as you do it. Traditional, mma, whatever, if you dont train against resisting opponents then you cant actually say you know that your stuff will work.
If you are mma and think that stenuous form work doesnt equate to athletic training, then you apparently havent done much strenuous formwork. Add a weight vest and you've got a pretty **** tough workout. I go to the gym on a regular basis on top of the rest of my training, but I dont feel that the gym is anywhere near a necessity.

[Meat Shake]

"being a good athlete = better fighter."

This is very untrue. Possibly if someone was an obese slug and their opponent was an avid jogger this may hold true, but other than that, Im afraid not. Have you ever seen the clip of the two marathon bikers getting in a fight? They didnt break it up for a good 2 or 3 minutes, and I garauntee you that no one got hurt. Maybe a scratch, but that came from falling off the bike. My point is.. I give a 6 month karate student the win over either of these increadibly conditioned athletes, simply for know how. He wouldnt need to go for 30 minutes, he would just have to knock someone the f*ck out or hurt them in the first 3 or so, which by the looks of things would not be a hard thing to do.

[Ultimatewingchun]

About KnightSabre's first post to open this thread - wherein he quotes Matt Thornton:

What I got out of Thornton's story is that this guy at Matt's seminar had NO grappling experience (be it standing or on the ground)...But he thought that since he was a trained martial artist (standup system) he could IMPROVISE his way out of the head and arm position with biting, or whatever.

He was sadly mistaken...

Because the system he's been training in is TOO LIMITED in it's scope - and probably because he's probably NOT in very good physical CONDITION...and probably the kind of "sparring" he's been doing all these years has not been HARD enough and REALISTIC ENOUGH.

Period.

That's ALL I got from Matt Thornton's words.

And the following quote is from EvolutionFist:

"Also, in my experience, martial artist that always talk down "sport fighting" and say it's so different than the street .... aren't trained well enough to handle either situation. It's just a nice excuse to avoid putting their training to the test....
The street variables will not change, but the guy who has been fighting skilled players will be more calm and familiar with the aproaching violence, his training and fight experience will kick in.
This is so **** obvious its really not even funny..."

Very true observations here! And it relates directly to the first part of my post...with the more traditional Chinese martial arts guy at the seminar.