Staff hand of Mantis

[Tainan Mantis]

This is about the essential mantis technique or principle called gun shou.
What follows is a partial listing of the facts of gun shou as I understand and interpret them.
This is followed by a question based on an apparent contradiction present in the material.

THE CHINESE CHARACTER GUN

The shou of gun shou means hand.
Gun, dating to the beginning of mantis history is written several ways.

1. gun4 rhymes with win -means -stick.
2. hun3 In calligraphy looks very similar to gun. Means"the same" or- the hem of clothing.
3. kun3 Two different characters with the same sound, kun3, and same meaning- to bind, to tie up.

Gun is the likely pronunciation so I will use that.

AN APPLICATION OF GUN SHOU

The opponent is in a right stance.
I am in a left stance.

He punches with his right hand.
My left hand grasps his right wrist.

My left forearm strikes by his elbow.
I remain affixed to keep control before applying another technique.

GUN SHOU IN ANCIENT TEXTS

The following quotes belong to that body of mantis material which remain without author or date of authorship.

EIGHTEEN FAMILY

Gun shou first appears in the eighteen family sonnet.

"Yang Gun's gun(shou), plucking and direct entering"

And also in,

"Meng Su's seven interconnected manuevers"

Of the seven manuevers the 4th is,

"double gun pull(shuang gun lou)"

BA GANG SHI ER RO

It next appears as the 7th of the "eight unyielding(ba gang)"

"left and right double gun(zuo you shuang gun)"

Followed by "twelve yielding(shi er ro)"

"If gun hand then leaking hand(gun shou er lou shou)"

The text continues with a technical explanation.

"Gun is like intercepting(jie) but circular.
Leaking is like rolling but departs.
It is the method of opening, shutting, taking and closing."

Elsewhere within the short strikes manuscript we find the following helpful explanations.

"Opening means to unfold."
"Shutting is the manuever which conspires to open."
"Taking is to suddenly initiate the attack and swiftly return"
"Closing means to close the door and make it impossible to obtain entry."
"Closing lies in ambush waiting for the chance to cunningly open."

NINE NINE EIGHTY-ONE

The old mantis form 9981 follows closely the,
"seven interconnected manuevers of Meng Su"
And is most likely the original detailed account of Meng Su's method.
Within the manuscript of the form is the verse,

"Left and right double gun busily jump and rush"

The explanation...

"...turn the body to the side, it enters horizontally..."

EIGHT EIGHT SIXTY-FOUR

Within the old form 8864 under the section,

"sixteen gates on the right, hand method of tong bei defeating pierce the ear"

We find the verse,

"Gun step and double gun then steal from the bottom of the sea(gun bu shuang gun hai di tou)"

Which shows that a strike to the groin naturally comes after the application of gun shou.
Elsewhere, instead of the groin strike, it is a snatch of the ankle for a throw.

[Tainan Mantis]

Now we come to the modern era where the date and authorship are more easily determined.

JING WU'S TANG LANG 14 ROADS

This comes from a student of Luo Guangyu's school of mantis in Shanghai and is the first known published manuscript containg mantis from that school.

The book

"Guidelines for Skillful Attacking(Ji Ji Zhun Sheng)" was first published in Shanghai in 1930.
It says,

"Jing Wu praying mantis was propogated by Mr Luo Guangyu..."

Included are his,

"fourteen roads of praying mantis manuscript(shi su lu tang lang quan pu)"

The 9th of the 14 roads is called,

"gun shou five hands"

Out of the 14 roads 11 have the "5 hands" suffix.

FOURTEEN ROADS OF HONG KONG

Years later a book called

"Fourteen Roads of Springy Leg(Shi Si Lu Tan Tuei)" was published by the 7* mantis school of HK.

It is almost the same as the 1930 version.
In this newer version the ninth road is simply called,

"gun shou"

This book includes detailed pictures and explanations as well as practical usage.
The explanation of "gun shou" starts with its history,

"Gun shou is a name of one of the methods from the eighteen families."

Next it describes the technique itself,

"It is to combine the inverted straight punch(tsuo chuei) followed by stealing the heart punch(tou xing chuei)"

The solo movements and application given here do not match what is usually taught as "gun shou"

My question is why?

Why does this manuscript and book differ from all other written explanations as well as what is taught in other schools?

[MantisifuFW]

Tainan,

By the way, greetings and thank you for your excellent article in the Quarterly on Fanche and Lulu. I have had many positive comments from people around the world about the quality of your research. I hope that you can find time to shead more light on such things with statements from the masters.

As for the topic you raise now. What I have from my sparce research is as follows:

In Taolu:
In WHF Tanglang Kun3 Shou is in posture 28 of Beng Bu Quan. It is to bind or tie up and is the performance of the Bu Chan while leaping. Kun3 can also mean to tie up and escourt a criminal, "kun ya" or to chain or fetter, "kun suo" or to truss up and bind "kun bang".

In Theory, the Shier Rou: Gun3 (twelve soft)
In WHF Tanglang #3
Lan Shou Er Gun3 Shou: If obstructed, roll around. Gungun means rolling or billowing, gun fan, to roll.

In Theory, the Shier Rou: Gun4, (twelve soft) This is the staff hand you are inquiring about.
In WHF Tanglang #4
Gun4 Shou Er Lou Sou: If staff hand is used, leak its power to slip its force.

In Theory, the Ba Gang: Gun4 (eight hard) This is the staff hand under consideration.
In WHF Tanglang #7
Zuo You Shuang Gun4: The left and right double staff (hand).

As for the Eighteen Families we have the following version:

Yang Gunde gun cai ru zhi.
Master Yang Gun's club and pluck enables one to enter straight in, (dissolving any opposition). For us it is movements that open and strike in one motion with one or both hands. We also use it as outlined as double clubbing in a circular, (though small), fashion that destablizes and enables entering to strike or throw.

All this to say that the shades of meaning are there in abundance in, at least, in the WHF line of HK Tanglang, I do not know about the others, (perhaps Shifu Pel has something on this, perhaps not). However as to your question, I too have read the material you mention from the Qingwu. I have it as Gun Shou, club hand.

Unfortunately, I have not done an extended study of the 14 Roads other than to note the techniques and their appearance in other forms. I will say that the technique you mention is not referred to as Gun Shou in WHF's other notes that I remember...(I am always open to correction).

Sorry I could not be of more help,

Steve Cottrell

[mantis108]

I have seen an explanation of Gun Shou from mainland PM group that used the " hand" radical instead of the "wood" radical. This little detail changes the meaning quite substantially. The Gun with the hand radical meaning a whipping motion, while the Gun with the wood radical means a stick or staff. It is said that the Gun with the hand radical is a Shandong dialect that means whipping. BTW, this would seem like frailing of the arms to the untrained eyes.

From one version of the 7 longs that is consistant with the Shaolin Authentics we have:

third long - double sealing cutting palm; whip the bull with a rod.

As the evidences that were given by both Tainan and Sifu Cottrell, we can get a picture of this "technique" has both rigid and flexible side. The rigid of this is a whip like motion of the forearm which resemble the rod that whips the bull that pulls the cart. I believe this is Ge Zhou in the greater Meihua PM terminology. One of the many ways of using Ge Zhou is to attack the opponent's elbow. With the whip like motion (Ge Zhou) to attack the elbow joint of a straighten arm that would result in a breakage of the joint. This is the rigid use of the Ge zhou. The flexible way of Ge Zhou is also known as Chie Zhou (cutting elbow) which is also one of the favorite techniques of GM Chiu Chuk Kai. Chie Zhou is pretty much a Chin Na move. It is basically a standing armbar. It locks up the eblow joint instead of breaking it. A good Chie Zhou is going to take the legs out or destorying the base of support of the opponent.

One thing Tainan pointed out to me before is that Gun seems to be more or less a principle rather than a specific technique. I happen to agree with that take.

Mantis108

PS Brendan has an interesting explanantion (probably R rated for public forum). lol..

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis 108, thank you for your contribution to the discussion. I pulled one of LKW's books off the shelf and look at what he was saying. He used the character yun3 meaning to use or utilize. This would make the statement of #7 Rigid to be "alternating left and right using both hands to attack". The example is one of double hook punches.

Just thought it would add another perspective.

Steve Cottrell

[Tainan Mantis]

Here are the four characters in question.
Each of the four have been used in reputable manuscripts to represent the "staff hand(gun shou)" method in question.

I don't know why Lee Kamwing used a different character and meaning in his book.
I will leave that for another discussion as it will only make this confusing matter more complicated than it is.

[Tainan Mantis]

In the 1930 book published in Sahnhia with the 14 roads.
It is written

"kun shou wu shou"
Of the 4 characters I included it is the 4th one.
I think the 1930 publication was a mistake. They should have written
gun- staff.
Not... kun- to bind.

The HK verson of 14 roads uses gun shou. staff hand.
BTW, Which sounds better in English...
staff hand?
cudgel hand?
club hand?
stick hand?

[MantisifuFW]

Tainan,

I think that staff or club hand more carry the idea in American English but being from the deep South and not from the midwest where most media language originates one might weigh my opinion as a less than enlightened one...

By the way, another GREAT topic!
Steve Cottrell

[Young Mantis]

I'm not sure where the confusion is. It is stated that there are several characters that sound similar.


THE CHINESE CHARACTER GUN

The shou of gun shou means hand.
Gun, dating to the beginning of mantis history is written several ways.

1. gun4 rhymes with win -means -stick.
2. hun3 In calligraphy looks very similar to gun. Means"the same" or- the hem of clothing.
3. kun3 Two different characters with the same sound, kun3, and same meaning- to bind, to tie up.

Gun is the likely pronunciation so I will use that.

I'm not sure what that last line is supposed to mean. Three separate characters each with its own pronunciation. What is meant by likely pronunciation?

We have techniques called:
1. ´Ò¤â - Gwan Sau - Staff Hand
2. ®¹¤â - Kwun Sau - Bind Hand
3. ºu¤â - Gwun Sau - Rolling Hand
(You may need to enable Big5 encoding to see the Chinese characters.)


AN APPLICATION OF GUN SHOU

The opponent is in a right stance.
I am in a left stance.

He punches with his right hand.
My left hand grasps his right wrist.

My left forearm strikes by his elbow.
I remain affixed to keep control before applying another technique.

This application given by TM represents our kwun sau (binding hand), not gwan sau (Staff hand). They are different techniques and unrelated.

YM

[B.Tunks]

I agree with Young Mantis that there are three totally different Gun, all extant in Tanglang. I think confusion sometimes arises, when different versions of otherwise very similar texts interchange these Gun characters as a result of misinterpreting the spoken word or poorly recorded trnsmission.

YM, if you dont mind, could you perhaps describe your understanding of Gun (gudgel/club/stick) Shou and Zuo You Shuang Gun from Ba Gang as a frame of reference? If not in this forum, I understand. The Zuo You Shuang Gun principle is widely varied in definition. Thanks in advance.

Bt

[Tainan Mantis]

A recap of the club(thanks Steve) in Mantis.

It appears in:
18 family #17
8 Unyielding #7
12 yielding #4(forget #3 for now)
7 manuevers #4
7 Long as a definiton of #5

As well as old esoteric PM forms.

Nowhere in the very large body of above mentioned material does the binding character appear.

Now look at the scan that KUP shared with us.
Here #9 uses the bind character.

IS it right or wrong?

Now look at the WHF version of *9 that I have enclosed.
It uses the club character and defines it as coming from 18 families.

Is this application here correct?
Partial tranlsation in my above 2nd post.

[MantisifuFW]

Tainan,

First and formost, thank you for providing the commentary on the movement number nine. I do not have this document nor have I seen it. It explains clearly that WHF named this movement "club hand".

(Perhaps in the future I could get a copy of the Shisi Lu document from you. As I said in previous posts I have not studied this form in great degree and this would aid me greatly. I know these things are tough to come by but please consider it as it would mean a lot to me).

Secondly, to answer you question... as I understand the Club Hand, it could indicate this movement for the Club hand is, for me, a hand that threads, rotates with and thus carries the opponent's arm in a complementary direction. But does so in a manner which takes control and leads the opponent's body or his limb to create an opening.

You can therefore understand how a "leaking hand" could escape the threading rotating action of the Club Hand by slipping the torque of the Club. To do otherwise would be to add to the Club's effectiveness unless you were just overwelmingly larger and stronger.

Hope it helps,
Steve Cottrell

P.S.
Understand that there are others who know WHF's methods far better than I, obviously. But for my take on it, there it is. I do not wish to debate this, only to present what I can.

[Young Mantis]

Tainan,


Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
A recap of the club(thanks Steve) in Mantis.

It appears in:
18 family #17
8 Unyielding #7
12 yielding #4(forget #3 for now)
7 manuevers #4
7 Long as a definiton of #5

I agree that the "staff" character is used in the above texts. I did not ever say otherwise.

Nowhere in the very large body of above mentioned material does the binding character appear.

I also agree and I did not state that the "bind" character was
used in any of these texts either.

Now look at the scan that KUP shared with us.
Here #9 uses the bind character.

IS it right or wrong?

You suggested that, not me. I can say that the text presented by KUP is certainly different from that given by WHF.

Now look at the WHF version of *9 that I have enclosed.
It uses the club character and defines it as coming from 18 families.

Is this application here correct?
Partial tranlsation in my above 2nd post.

This scan is from WHF's publication often dubbed the "14 Roads Journal". He clearly outlines the 14 Roads form with pictures for each road. I think it is clear then how WHF defines #9, Staff Hand.

You had offered in your first post an application for "staff hand". I was simply stating in my earlier post that the application you give is not what is taught as "staff hand" but "bind hand" in the WHF lineage.

Now if you are saying the WHF given application of "staff hand" is wrong or different from what you have been taught, then I would be interested in seeing the texts that provide that other application.

YM

[MantisifuFW]

Young Mantis,

I too would be interested in hearing about the application of the technique listed in the document provided by Sifu Kai Uwe Pel. I am certain that this explanation would give many a greater understanding by making clear the apparent contrast between the two documents' differing names for the technique.

I look forward to more on this topic!

Thanks Tainan,

Steve Cottrell

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
AN APPLICATION OF GUN SHOU

The opponent is in a right stance.
I am in a left stance.

He punches with his right hand.
My left hand grasps his right wrist.

My left forearm strikes by his elbow.
I remain affixed to keep control before applying another technique.


Is the left-hand grab an "inside" or "outside" grab? Where is this technique used in the "14 Roads" form? #9?

[Tainan Mantis]

Here is enclosed gun used as a verb from a very famous MA text of Southern style fighting.
This book is close to 100 yeasr old.

This is solid proof that gun is used as a verb to strike in MA.
The posture is described as a way of blocking against these"clubbing" strikes.

BTW, I highly suspect that this book was the inspiration for WHF and his series of books.

For those interested in this book and the writer there are hordes of Fighters on the Southern forums with a very deep knowledge of the man, his books, history and fighting style.

Mantis Ben,
Outside

[mantis108]

Are sure this is the right attachment?

I think this is HuHe Shuang Xing by Lam Sai Wing. I think this is published after world war II?

The application here in this page is actually against a real staff attack. There is a recent article by another master of that Hung Kuen lineage with photo picture of this move again a staff attack.

Personally, there is nothing inheritly wrong about the application if we understand that southern staff or stick for that matter is a bit different from the northern counter part. Believe it or not stick or staff is actually considered short weaponry despite of its physical length. Ming dynasty MA books had discourses on this subject matter. General Yu Dayou (mentor of General Qi Jiguang) commented on the staff fighting at the time (1500s) that most people use the staff without knowing to use the waist, nor do they know about using the rear hand. The fact that most southern staff are done with the right hand lead, as oppose to left hand lead in the spear, is a major indication that most people didn't capitalize on the length of the staff.

This is crucial IMHO in the way that this particular application would work aganist southern staff, which essentially is short weaponry, if the angle and timing are right. Also one would have to practice Iron Bridge for a long long time before attempting counter staff attack with this app. If one tries to counter the seemingly wild swing double handed northern stick (like base ball bat swing) with this move, the result wouldn't be in the empty hand guys flavor IMHO. :(

Warmest regards

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

Oops.
That is what happens when I am in a hurry.
I should have read it a little closer.

I am used to each move being related to the next one in a series.

The movement I posted seems to not have any connection to the previous or following one as far as his application descriptions are concerned.

There is another move in the book called Iron Door Bolt, matching one of the important manuevers of PM.

I might post it later.