how to use scissor stances to advance and why?

[WanderingMonk]

I am reading Bucksam Kong's Hung gar kung-fu book and it talks about how scissor stance can be used to advance and retreat. I get the retreat part, but I am at a lost about the advance. can someone give an example of using scissor stance to advance and explain its relative advantage over something like an arrow stance in advancing.

thanks in advance

[Tak]

Disclaimer: I have never read the book and I do not study Hung Gar. Also, IANAE.


We use stealing step (basically a long scissor step - may have gotten its name because it can be used to steal your opponent's space) to advance sometimes. One of the advantages is that the front foot doesn't move initially, so it's less apparent that you're advancing until it's too late.

Example: You're in a fighting posture, you backfist with the front hand, at the same time steal-stepping forward with the rear foot. Now you're in a good position for a sidekick (without the backfist, this is a classic cross-behind sidekick), or, by "untwisting" the hips/body, a spinning kick or punch. Also good for throws.

[hasayfu]

I've not read Kong Sifu's book but by scissor stance I assume you mean the twist stance.

It's a good way to come in with driving force. If you look at the step as a stomp to your opponents lead leg, you can see it's effectiveness. Usually combined with some bridging up top.

[Ou Ji]

I don't know about others but step behind to advance, step in front to retreat.

[SevenStar]

think throws.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ou Ji
I don't know about others but step behind to advance, step in front to retreat.

I don't like the thought of crossing my feet to advance or retreat...

[Ou Ji]

That's nice but it doesn't answer the question.

My question to you is do you do it in your style even though you don't like the thought of it or do you avoid it completely? And if you don't do it then what was your reference to throws about?

BTW, I generally don't cross when advancing and retreating either but I do know the uses for it plus the pros and cons of it's use. And it is a wicked setup for a throw when used as an advance. I believe it's also how Cung Le sets up his scissor takedown he likes so much.

[Tak]

YES! @ flying scissor takedown. We were just playing with those the other night. Although I thought Cung Le had a tendency to set them up from a kick...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ou Ji
That's nice but it doesn't answer the question.

My question to you is do you do it in your style even though you don't like the thought of it or do you avoid it completely? And if you don't do it then what was your reference to throws about?

the style had it, but I never did it. the reference to throws was using the stance to fit in for the throw. I however, did not cross my legs and would fit in with more or a step and pivot, a la judo - it's a similar movement, but without the crossing of the legs..

[mysteri]

only person who might capitalize off of someone crossing their legs is a proficient fighter against a less-seasoned fighter who's slow about it and at a poor angle. even then, its usually pretty seldom so a good fighter's gotta be on top of their game(to know when/where/how to take advantage).

anyway, in my jow ga, we pretty much go along the same lines as what was stated by hasayfu ("It's a good way to come in with driving force. If you look at the step as a stomp to your opponents lead leg, you can see it's effectiveness. Usually combined with some bridging up top.") and ouiji ("I don't know about others but step behind to advance, step in front to retreat.)

when advancing, during some "bridging up top", its great b/c by the time ur opponent might catch wind that their middle gate is perfectly aligned for a sharp knee, its already there. by "drawing" ur opponent to bridge(which leaves the gate door wide open), it puts u a step ahead and leaves them in a very nasty position, especially if u have some good follow-ups in store.(like an overhead elbow crashing on their newly exposed skull/jaw)

also if ur good enough, stepping at the correct angles(with good timing) will give u positioning advantages. i like the twist step. among other things, it certainly adds variety.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by mysteri
only person who might capitalize off of someone crossing their legs is a proficient fighter against a less-seasoned fighter who's slow about it and at a poor angle. even then, its usually pretty seldom so a good fighter's gotta be on top of their game(to know when/where/how to take advantage).

I disagree. I get throws in judo off of this all the time. in muay thai, you get rushed. Getting caught with your feet crossed leaves you in a nasty position. that's why they teach us not to cross the legs. in my cma and jun fan days, there was a shuffling type step called a z step in the jun fan that was a deceptive entry that allowed you to get closer to your opponent. When done in conjunction with a strike, it was hard to tell that your opponent was moving toward you. fron a distance, you are safe with that type of step, but in close, I'd rather not use it, and consequently never did.

[mysteri]

thanx for the reply, 7star. i don't have any judo experience(jus san shou trainin), so i guess i really wouldn't know :) like i said before, i prefer to use it in conjunction w/ some bridgin up top. a lot of times the opponent doesnt realize it w/ the distractions up there. one thing that makes it a bad idea is when people don't know when and how to use it.(like u clued, certain proximity w/o setup=bad idea) we use "z-stepping" in jow ga as well(i'm still not too good at it yet).

PS- maybe u should begin ur reply after the {/quote}, ;)

[WanderingMonk]

Thanks for everyone who responded.

Tak,

Thanks for the combo suggestion.



It's a good way to come in with driving force. If you look at the step as a stomp to your opponents lead leg, you can see it's effectiveness. Usually combined with some bridging up top.


hasayfu,

where would you stomp? do you target the toes?

7*,

thanks for the mt/boxing perspective,

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by mysteri

PS- maybe u should begin ur reply after the {/quote}, ;)

I do have a bad habit of that :D

I do it for a reason though - when I reply to someone who has multiple things I wish to reply to, it's easier to read and understand if I add my reply right after the section I'm replying to.




mysteri said:

seven replies:

mysteri said:

seven replies:



etc.

[Tak]

Mmm, it's not like you're really standing there with the legs crossed, though. It's more like a fast shuffle step that happens to be deep enough that the back foot comes past the front.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's a transitional step (that's the difference in my mind between a "step" and a "stance" - you move through a step from something directly to something else, whereas, with a stance, you might be in that position for more than 1/2 second.) - you don't start it without already knowing where you're going to end up.
Because then you will be screwed. IME.

[hasayfu]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
hasayfu,
where would you stomp? do you target the toes?


Whatever is around. The target is not as important as the stomping/driving energy in the step. Knee, shin, toe... all valid.

Tak is right. Needs to be part of the transition not a stand there in a twist stance. Remember that from this stance you can powerfully unwind, as well as continue forward or around. In the forward mode with Hung Gar, it's usually placing the forward moving feet strategically behind the opponent setting him up for a take down.