Closed door students

[AmanuJRY]

We've all heard the stories about Yip Man's final closed door students, and about those who say they were one of them.
In trying to find out who they really were I could find all but one, who is it.
Most all sources say there were four of them, and then add Ip Man's two sons, this makes six;

Ip Chun
Ip Ching
Wong Shun Leung
Tsui Seung Tin
Leung Ting
and ???

Anyone know? Anyone care to comment?

[yuanfen]

Know? What does know mean? hearsay? opinion?

What does closed door mean? Maybe so bad that the door should be closed? Other meanings?

WSL and TST were students in the early period of IM's HK period.

The two sons came from the mainland about when IM was close to retirement. Likely to have learned more from some kung fu elder brothers.

Now-Matters not IMO. Much osmosis since then.

Students can vary in knowledge, skills and ability in any period
of any teachers career.

[AmanuJRY]

I agree that it does not matter much. There are exellent instructors across all liniages.

Of the ones I listed, there has been comments about their private instruction from sources other than their own, still hearsay I guess, but others have backed them up on it. I have also heard some others who claim it as a maketing tool, which to me means that some of the masses out there regard it as important. I just wanted to see if I could get a more or less definative list in order to recognize those who are using this marketing tool falsly.

My take, if said master was a "closed door student" of Ip Man and they want to brag about it...fine. If they were not and they claim it, then I want to know who's full of it!;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

There is at least one prominent name on that list who was NEVER a direct disciple of Yip Man...and at least one prominent name that should be on that list of direct disciples...but whose name was omitted.

Enough said.

These kinds of troll threads are a big waste of time.

[yuanfen]

AmanuJry- asked about final closed door studnets not all closed door students or disciples. So the phrasing is muddled.

But matters not today in the scheme of things. Unlikley to have constructive discussions on these things.

How long did one study? How often? Directly? Indirectly? Auditing?
Paying students?

Nota matter of secrets- lots of folks-oldtimers ( students of IM) included disinclined to gossip. And- good luck in finding "truth" in forums.

[quiet man]

What does it mean to be a 'closed door student'? Does it mean that sifu will show you MORE wing chun (either because you paid more, or because you try hard and distinguish yourself, or sifu really likes you, or for some other valid or invalid reason)? Or that sifu will show you BETTER wing chun (i.e. some 'secret' techniques, or the 'real thing' and not the watered down stuff he shows to general population, or things like that)?

My sifu was a direct student of WSL for nine years. He says during that time Wong sigung made a lot of jokes about the so-called closed door students - like "yes, (_) was a closed door student, because they wouldn't let him in" or "the doors and windows in Hong Kong (Xianggang) are always open, because of the heat and humidity", but he has NEVER referred to himself as a closed door student.

[ntc]

Well.... from what I recall, we used to joke about "closed door" students pretty much like what "Quiet Man" posted earlier. Yip Man and his students all taught in pretty much the same way.... some students got way more attention than others. This was done in the open, but was based primarily on how good the teacher felt about a particular student, especially in the areas of earnst, sincerity, diligence to practice, devotion, hardwork, etc. etc. etc. Students typically had to spend quite a bit of time (years, not months or weeks) with a teacher for the right trust and relationship to develop to this stage.

There were some names that were frequently mentioned when my sifu talked to us about things that were going on. These were among those who appeared to have spent more time than others with Yip Man when he was alive, and apparently got more attention than others. If my memory holds, these included Leung Sheung, Wong Bun, Lok Yiu, Moy Yat, Ho Kam Ming, Tsui Sheung Tin, Chow Chee Chuen, Wong Shun Leung, Cheung Cheuk Hing, Tam Lai, Lo Man Kam, and Koo Sang. There may have been others... been a long time since my sifu and I had our dinner conversations, but I recall these to almost always pop up in our talks.

[AmanuJRY]

"What does it mean to be a 'closed door student'? "

I'm not sure, most likely the ones using this statement believe it to mean they got the "complete" system, but I'm not buying it.

"AmanuJry- asked about final closed door studnets not all closed door students or disciples. So the phrasing is muddled."

Yes, I'm sure Ip Man had many private students, but I am referring to the final ones.

"There is at least one prominent name on that list who was NEVER a direct disciple of Yip Man...and at least one prominent name that should be on that list of direct disciples...but whose name was omitted."

Who, that is indeed my question.

"These kinds of troll threads are a big waste of time."

I suppose, like yuanfen stated, that it is unlikly to have any constructive exchange over this, but I did not mean for it to be inflamitory.
Like I stated above, it doesn't REALLY mean anything to me, I was just curious to know. I have seen many articles that state these names in regards to this subject (whether or not ANYONE agrees or disagrees) and I was wanting to know who the mysterious missing person is.
As far as technique goes, not only does it not matter wheather you study under one of these "Closed door deciples" or their liniage, but it doesn't matter if you study outside the Ip Man branch. In the end it's all about "does it work".

[Miles Teg]

Who knows for sure.

To me the person who toots their horn the least about their relationship with YM gets the most respect. Of course studying the longest with someone doesnt automatically mean they have the best skill either.

I would just go to as many different schools as possible and make up your own mind.

[Yaksha]

I've heard that yip man's sons weren't around their father often and devoted their time to wing chun after his death. That they were taught by an open door student.

I've heard this from many people, but have not tried to verify it.

Leung ting keeps secrets and doesn't try to teach the art correctly.

William cheung seems relatively honest

and hawkins cheung graduated from yip man's school three times! He just kept going back to learn more. He focuses a lot on the internal mental aspects of wing chun and subtlties of body alignment.

Those are the only two I know that you forgot. Hawkins and william cheung.

[ntc]

Yaksha:

Actually, I did not forget.... William Cheung is included in my list under his Chinese name "Cheung Cheuk Hing".

Also, your comments about Yip Man's sons are along the same knowledge I have of them.

Regarding Hawkins and Leung Ting, I don't recall their names being mentioned often in association with Yip Man when we talked about the rest, which is why I did not include them there. I have known Hawkins (Cheung Hok Kin) myself for a while.... he is a really cool guy. Leung Ting is a pretty funny guy as well.... loves to karaoke!

[Yaksha]

Oh! Well, do you know how I could maybe learn from Hawkins or one of his students or something like that?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay...since the origin of this thread seems NOT to have been to troll - I'll add another mystery name to the list of direct Yip Man disciples.

Moy Yat used to talk upon occasion of someone named Ug Chat - said he was something of a loner...but his Wing Chun was very good.

I once asked William Cheung about him - and he confirmed that Ug Chat was indeed a student of Yip Man.

[dfl]

Originally posted by ntc
If my memory holds, these included Leung Sheung, Wong Bun, Lok Yiu, Moy Yat, Ho Kam Ming, Tsui Sheung Tin, Chow Chee Chuen, Wong Shun Leung, Cheung Cheuk Hing, Tam Lai, Lo Man Kam, and Koo Sang.

Who is Wong Bun?
I have not seen this name in the list of commonly known YM students before. Could you supply the Chinese name please?

[AmanuJRY]

It has been brought to my attention that Wang Kiu was the other in the list.

[KingMonkey]

Brief rant follows........

Bah - closed door, schmosed door.
To me this concept only has negative connotations on soo many levels.

It speaks badly for the teacher, badly for the student and is the source of so much bullsh*t.

Excuse my interruption, please continue your pointless discussion.:rolleyes:

[AmanuJRY]

"Bah - closed door, schmosed door.
To me this concept only has negative connotations on soo many levels.

It speaks badly for the teacher, badly for the student and is the source of so much bullsh*t.

Excuse my interruption, please continue your pointless discussion."

I can't dissagree.
Truth is, people have used this as a marketing tool and obviously to some misguided students it means something (otherwise they wouldn't use it as a marketing tool).
My guess is Ip Man probably pulled aside the four top (or what he believed to be the most likly candidates) students of his, in order to make sure what they knew and were teaching was to his satisfaction before passing on leadership of the VTMAA so he could retire. That is not to say that others were not as good, they just were not the ones he chose for whatever reason (could be they had better business sense or ???). Also this was over 25 years ago, there are many excellent instructors who have developed in that time alone.

Pointless discussion? Yeah, but it satisfied my curiosity, so it wasn't completly pointless for me.

[Dragonhand]

"Riding a Dead Horse"

The tribal wisdom of the Dekota Indians passed on from generation to generation says that when you discover that you are riding a "Dead Horse" the best strategy is to dismount.