To study Judo or Muay Thai Kickboxing?

[mossman]

I am interested in studing more styles of martial arts, and it just so happens that there is a Judo club that practices at my college and a Muay Thai/BJJ place near the campus.

I'm really wondering how these other styles will work with my VingTsun training. Could you all give me your opinion one which one might be worth taking a dab into? I want to keep VingTsun as my major art, but have a little something else to go with it.

So what do you think? I know it's pretty important to get a strong foundation in one style first. I just want to take advantage of this opportunity while I can.

[KingMonkey]

Hmm well if it were me I'd do the MT/BJJ.

How are these likely to go with your WC ? That's harder to say and will probably vary from person to person.
I have followed a similar path, I moved from WC to jkd which is mainly based on MT/BJJ/Filipino/WC so here is a brief summary of my experiences.

Training in MT and weapons has caused me to pretty much discard WC footwork, I just cant believe in anything other than 50/50 weighting and I make a distinction between moving and striking ie on the toes vs more flat footed.

I no longer view centre line punches as the final word in striking. I think they definitely have a place, but maybe there's room for other things.

I have found that the instincts I have built up in WC have served me well in close range. My tactile skills, softness and urge to punch directly are all good things.

I have struggled much more with intercepting incoming strikes like jab/cross at longer range. I am still working out what is my best option but right now I'm leaning towards using more mobile footwork and a willingness to move back and use stop hits to soften up/ distract the opponent for an entry rather than charging forward at the first twitch and relying on god like sensitivity as my WC tells me to try to do.

BJJ is great !! It is filling a massive gap in my ability to deal with whatever comes along and giving me other options. If you're only training WC right now I'd take these classes before the MT.

To sum up BJJ is a great fit and will not threaten to compromise what you have learnt in the stand up game. The MT is a different story, your attitudes and probably your WC will most likely never be the same again. This may be a positive thing however. One great benefit of these styles is live resistance, something which is sadly lacking in my personal experience of three different WC schools/lineages.

My experience on the other side of the tracks caused me to move on from actively training WC.
I am trying to keep the things I liked with me and discard the bad. Cross training is a bit scary at times because you no longer have someone (or one style) giving you absolutes. Nobody to say we have all the answers and this is right and that's wrong.

I hope it will make me a better fighter in the end. Maybe not. Anyway, I hope this gave you some useful perspective.

[AmanuJRY]

I would have to agree with taking the MT/BJJ class, it sounds like you'll get more out of it than the Judo...but I don't believe you have to disregard or lose any of your VT background.

I think anyone in VT/WC/WT stands to benifit from some groundfighting/grappling work. and MT can help you develop VT skills in the long range (kick range) plus it can be fun.

[Merryprankster]

Allow me to be the first to disagree with everybody else completely.

You will likely get more out of Judo. You will learn how to takedown and throw without getting taken down and thrown yourself. You will not have to try and figure out where MT fits in with your own patterns of doing things and MOST BJJ classes, while great at ground stuff, have lousy takedowns.

The point is, you get good at what you train at. IF you want to employ WC as your main art, you need to focus on learning not to get taken down, while having a back up game plan if you do get there on somebody else's terms. You should get enough groundwork at most Judo clubs to satisfy those needs.

Further, should you eventually decide to take BJJ, you'll have an arsenal of throws and clinchwork that will be VERY helpful in establishing a great position from which to work.

Put simply, the person who controls the range of the fight usually wins. Judo is going to give you more options than BJJ.

Oh... BTW... I'm a BJJer, so it's not like I'm nuthugging Judo. I LOVE BJJ, I just think you'll get more out of Judo.

[yuanfen]

Given his interest and the choices that mossman has mentioned- I agree with the Merryprankster- assuming that the judo instructor is a good one.

With proper instruction- a winchun person can throw too-but that is not dealing with mossman's question.

[Christopher M]

Try them both and do what you enjoy the most.

That said, if I were in your position, I would take the Judo - per what MP said. The BJJ would be very helpfull, but the Judo school might offer enough groundwork to make you comfortable there. The MT would be the least helpfull: you already have a striking base, and judo would give you more for the clinch than MT would. One benefit to the MT would be the conditioning, but if you are adequately motivated, you can cover that base on your own without needing to pick up another martial art for it.

FWIW regarding my recommendation, I'm a kungfu man.

Also, if proper posture is an important element in your WC training, you will see significant cross-benefit in this area with Judo practice.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Some absolutely amazing stuff going on in this thread. I'm taking an aerial view and I see all kinds of possibilities here.

First off....King Monkey wrote this:

"I have found that the instincts I have built up in WC have served me well in close range..... I have struggled much more with intercepting incoming strikes like jab/cross at longer range....right now I'm leaning towards using more mobile footwork and a willingness to move back and use stop hits to soften up/ distract the opponent for an entry rather than charging forward at the first twitch and relying on god like sensitivity as my WC tells me to try to do. "


A very common wing chun complaint; and if mossman is experiencing the same thing - and if there is no TWC or other wing chun school nearby that teaches a more dynamic footwork - than King Monkey's suggestion of MT/BJJ is the smartest thing....

because mossman will want to improve his (long-range) standup striking and kicking (MT)...and the BJJ will be a nice bonus.

On the other hand - if mossman is satisfied with his footwork and longer range skills, (ie. - he can deal with a good jab/cross)...then take Merryprankster's suggestion and go learn judo - for the very reasons that he outlined so well (ie. - the whole issue of takedowns).

Unless of course...mossman wants to CATCH a rising star.

[SPJ]

Agreed with MP and CM.

You may try Judo/Shuai Jiao first.

Grappling/Qin Na/BJJ/JJ next.

MT for knee, shin strikes /footwork.

MT for elbow strikes.

Good luck.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Unless of course...mossman wants to CATCH a rising star.
:rolleyes:

[YongChun]

When I studied Tai Chi before, the generation before me could all use it to fight. All those guys came out of Judo. My generation and the ones after couldn't use it to fight. They had no Judo background.

Right now we have an Olympic calibre Judo person training in Wing Chun. He has the best stance, is the most relaxed. No one can take him to the ground yet he can sweep everyone to the ground.

[captain]

do the judo.as someone who actually does judo [ie,not, "ive read a book about........'] it has many things that help your wck.for example,a standing armlock called ude gatame that can be used if your grappled in chi sao range/[something many wck people have concerns about].as for the infamous bjj guard,where do you think that came form...........?
russ

[captain]

likewise,no diss,MP.
r

[Ultimatewingchun]

"As for the infamous bjj guard,where do you think that came form...........?"


Let me guess: Catch Wrestling? Where is it known as the front body scissors?

[old jong]

Judo,BJJ,wrestling,whatever...You will get something different that doesn't get in conflict with your Wing Chun. (Assumed you want to stay in it)
An other striking art is not necessary if your Wing Chun is good,again assuming you like Wing Chun enough to stay with it or you are not too pervious to internet bla bla bla!...;)

[PaulH]

Tough choice but for immediate brutal effectiveness in a short time, MT teaches you a thing or two about what power is really all about. You will be more prepared mentally in a fight. E\_ =)

[captain]

victor,are you serious?is that where the guard comes from?i had no idea that had catch wrestling back in 16th century Japan?!

Russell

[Ultimatewingchun]

Russell:

At the risk of having more people think that I have no real respect for ju jitsu - which is not true....

Let me just say that Catch wrestling traces it's roots back to 648 A.D. - when it was introduced to the Greek Olympics as "Pankration."

[yuanfen]

There are disctinctions between the Olympic pankration and the Roman adaptation.
For the Greek Olympics- eligigibility for the pankration
depended on performance in the separate boxing and wrestling competitions.
I have seen old Olympic records and lists of who came from where.

Calling it catch wrestling is stretching the meaning of the old pankration.

[captain]

victor,have you heard of dumog grappling from
the phillipines?apparently older than jiu jitsu,etc?

russ

[TheBlackDragons]

To be a well rounded fighter

You have to learn all ranges of Combat

[iblis73]

Hmmm......well I'd go with the bjj/muay thai for variety. I would ALSO recomend after some time at that school taking up some judo. A local school opened here recently that is great-guy is an amatuer kickboxer/boxer,bjj purple belt and judo brown belt!

If its GOOD muay thai you will find as I did that it can be as subtle as wing tsun sometimes. The clinch work is a must! Bjj is awesome and has some decent takedowns (though nowhere near what judo has!)

[mossman]

I think I've decided to just go with Muay Thai. How's this place look?

http://www.richmondbjj.com

I am looking for something that I can just take over the summer and I definatly what to develop some power. I'm really not into all the uniforms and belts and bowing in the Judo place. The Judo place was just a club at my college, not really a school. And as for BJJ...not really excited about being on the ground.

Is it possible to take MT for about 3 months and benifit from it? Or would that just be a waste of time?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Calling it catch wrestling is stretching the meaning of the old pankration."

You twisted my words...Joy...to make them into something they're not.

I said that Catch wrestling TRACES IT'S ROOTS back to Greek Pankration.

It is, in fact, a modified modern form of the wrestling that started in ancient Greece.

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Russ (captain):

I've heard of dumog - but I've never seen it.