Opening movements

[Yaksha]

I've been told that the introduction to the forms is the most important and thats why its taught first, but there are some interesting differences between lineages.

the opening footwork is different. Most schools pivot their feet out into position ending up pidgeon-toed, but some schools swing their feet and end up with parallel feet.
In my opinion, that is more effective because its more mobile and includes some basic evasive footwork, but if you have a different opinion, please tell me why.

Also Leung Ting, after crossing arms high and low, teaches a wierd inward folding of the arms. Whats that all about?

[lawrenceofidaho]

The wierd folding is just the kwun-sau (rotating arms) movement, except instead of a tan & bong (like in the dummy form), you are just doing it with the tan-sau positions.

-Lawrence

[sihing]

in the lineage I belong to, which is very similar to the TWC method, the opening(DBL X-wrist Tan-Sau-->Dbl X-wrist Gaun-sau-->Dbl X-wrist Tan-Sau) is a self-defence movement and also a way to determine one's central line, which means the area in which we can use both arms at the same time without pivoting our hips.
In combat using WC one must be able to touch the opponent with both hands (double palm strike per say) at all times, except during multiple opponent combat. This makes the chain punching/trapping methods of WC work more effectively. We also use the leg swing into parallel stance instead of the swivel into pigeon toe which limits movement in combat, IMHO

Sihing

[Toby]

OK, I'm just a beginner, but can you tell me how the x-wrist bit in brackets is a self defence movement? I would think you would avoid crossing your arms up except in very specific circumstances. Surely your opponent can easily control your two arms by controlling one when you're in that position?

Also, I doubt anyone that uses pigeon-toed stance in their forms would fight in that stance. Do you think that a fighter would (upon facing up to an opponent) swivel their feet out step-by-step into YGKYM? Does anyone fight in (their version of) YGKYM anyway? I thought it was for other purposes, least of them being a fighting stance.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Toby
Also, I doubt anyone that uses pigeon-toed stance in their forms would fight in that stance. Do you think that a fighter would (upon facing up to an opponent) swivel their feet out step-by-step into YGKYM? Does anyone fight in (their version of) YGKYM anyway? I thought it was for other purposes, least of them being a fighting stance.

IMHO, pivoting your feet out into position ending up pidgeon-toed YGKYM is just a way to measure the correct width of your stance.

[S.Teebas]

....can you tell me how the x-wrist bit in brackets is a self defence movement?....

Toby,

I think that the movements in SNT are not actually a literal translation of fighting techniques, but more ideas on paths along which you can take to generate force. This relates to and is expanded in chi-sau, i.e. (the common saying) when your rolling you should just shoot forward and strike when there is nothing blocking our way. However, we rarely have the luxury of picking an ideal line to take.
This is because most people train to defend against the most common lines of attack: e.g. the straight punch, hook, and uppercut.

I believe chi sau takes this one step further and shows us that there are infinite lines of attack. It can destabilize the preconceived idea of what certain techniques are and how they should be delivered.

Knowing how to exploit someone’s weakness, and generate enough force to cause an impact, however, is another mater altogether.

Chi sau can teach us to take the unexpected route, and remain safe.

SNT points out some kea areas and movements that we can utilize. Through experience of chi-sau correctly - being relaxed and structurally supported enough to feel when there actually are gaps, and having the ability to make use of those opportunities are useful tools.

[Atleastimnotyou]

why is it that opening movement is used to "determine the centerline"? Arent you aware of your centerline at all times? Why does it need to be determined?

[reneritchie]

Toe-out and toe-in are two very important footwork concepts all their own, and are found across most lineages (not just Yip Man) of WCK, and thus are probably fairly old in terms of the chronology. Some teachers may have thought the circling more important, hence replaced it.

The inward rotation Leung Ting does is also found across the lineages, and is similar to what everyone does later in Bong/Tan transition (Kwun Sao to some). Reportedly, Yip Man simplified this for later students.

Note: Both hands cross together in the form for economy's sake. In real application, you can use either one by itself, in any sequence, or combined with anything else. It's like a dictionary, you don't read it in a linear progression or cross-column--you extract what you need when you need it. That part basically deals with idealized hand shapes for intercepting middle and low, and transitionining between the two.

(And they are literal fighting techniques as well. If they weren't you would also not be training economically. Every movement trains your body (tendons, etc.), develops power, and shows ideal positioning).

[imx]

Originally posted by Yaksha


the opening footwork is different. Most schools pivot their feet out into position ending up pidgeon-toed, but some schools swing their feet and end up with parallel feet.
In my opinion, that is more effective because its more mobile and includes some basic evasive footwork, but if you have a different opinion, please tell me why.

Also Leung Ting, after crossing arms high and low, teaches a wierd inward folding of the arms. Whats that all about?

It's hard to explain for me, it's a lot easier to show it, but I'll try.

Well, the IRAS, the character two adduction stance, the riding goat stance or pidgeon toed stance, as you call it, has many good purposes. The reasons, I know, of why we use it as a pre-fighting stance is that it makes the transition to the front-stance quicker. By pressing in our knees towards eachother and therefore make our toes point to one point in front of us, like a triangle. (Imagine a triangle, your feets are on the two points on the baseline while they point toward the upper corner.) Anyway since you are pressing your knees inwards there will be a "stored energi" and this energi will help you move forward faster as soon as you lift you foot, almost like a crossbow. Also the lower legs are aligned so that they point towards one point. The lower legs should be like spears pointing with an angle forward so that the force coming toward it is directed down to the ground. The stance will also help you to turn and redirect force easier. These are the practical reason for the IRAS as a pre fighting stance that I can remember right now, I'm not 100% sure though.

As for the the wierd inward folding of the arms, I don't know how you do it so I don't understand the difference. However, after the crossed gan sau we actually do the double kwun sau, which many practioners believe comes first in the wooden dummy form. One of the applications for the the single kwun sau is to deal with chained attacks along with the lower bong sau. So the kwun sau movement is the movement from gan sau to a sideling tan sau.

[couch]

As far as the SNT is concerned, I agree with Rene. As my Sifu put it:

The SNT is a dictionary, but with just a dictionary - you can't make sentences. ie: Our Gum Sao clears just to the hip. If I were to face my opponent while performing this move, I would likely still be hit. But it's the shift in my stance or the movement(even step in some lineages) that enables the block to be utilized.

The opening of the stance: toes first, then heels - helps to measure the width of your stance and comes from some Qigong training.

As well, IRAS (Leung Ting's), I've been told from a teacher of that lineage that it's like drawing a bow and then waiting to explode with movement (induction of the knees). - Just like imx has said! Must have missed that post!

Sincerely,
Couch

[AztecaPreist]

The average person coming in off the streets will have no concept of any body structers wich means learning centerline is vital. To know your self is key. The crossing of the hands is to give you a self measuring tool for your distances in a combat situation, Once again knowing yourself. All movements in the slt,slnt are movements done in combat and should be understood before moving on to chum ku. Each level of learning gives a better understanding for the next

[sihing]

Yes the SLT is like a dictionary, definitions of techniques are learned then applied to many, many sentences (applications),

Quote: Atleastimnotyou
"why is it that opening movement is used to "determine the centerline"? Aren’t you aware of your centerline at all times? Why does it need to be determined?"

In the lineage I belong to which partly comes from the TWC of GM Cheung, we use the Central Line Theory, which as I said before determines the area(basically between the knees when in neutral stance) in which two hands can be used at the same time without pivoting the hips. Centerline for my definition just means the line running down the center of the body from the top of the head to the area between the legs. In front stance the hips follow the knees which are 45deg either way depending on the lead established, the guard is more geared toward the front facing the opponent, 1 wu sao 3/4 extended the other wu sao close to the elbow, pointed in the direction of the centerline, protecting the upper gates.

We can use the Dbl X-Tan Sao for a double wrist grab defence, and there are some chi-sao applications also once in the X-arm or parallel front stance positions.

The leg swing is used to teach sweeps and such.


Sihing

[Shadowboxer]

The inward folding teaches you how to deal with your arms being trapped. Someone does a double lop sao on you and holds your arms in the Phon sao postion "X". At some point they will have to release a hand to punch you in the face, for example. When they release you rotate the released hand into tan. Try it with a partner to see what I mean.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
We can use the Dbl X-Tan Sao for a double wrist grab defence, and there are some chi-sao applications also once in the X-arm or parallel front stance positions. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I am not comfortable with the concept of crossing my arms/wrists. Not for this " double wrist grab defence", or any other. It's not required and can leave you in a weak and vulnerable position. ie. trapped. Is it just me, or what?

Bill

[Shadowboxer]

Did you see my reply before you posted?

[sihing]

Matrix, when your wrists are grabbed by the opponent’s hands then what is he/she going to trap you with? It’s hard to explain in writing exactly how techniques are done, but suffice it to say the technique works great due to the fact that most fighters have no contact reflexes, if he/she tries to even attempt a trap you have them...



Sihing

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
Did you see my reply before you posted? No I didn't.
Thanks,
Bill

[AmanuJRY]

the opening footwork is different. Most schools pivot their feet out into position ending up pidgeon-toed, but some schools swing their feet and end up with parallel feet.

In Leung Ting's WT, they teach the "pivot" method for SNT and CK, for BJ they teach the "swing" method, but still end up pidgeon-toed.
I personally like the pigeon-toed stance for training (static) because with the toes slightly inward it increases the muscle groups that are assosiated with adduction therefore developing more explosive footwork.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
why is it that opening movement is used to "determine the centerline"? Arent you aware of your centerline at all times? Why does it need to be determined?

students have to learn somewhere...

we get taught the form introduces principles - use both hands at the same time, occupy centreline etc as well as introducing possible arm positions and refining technique through practice.

re: stance - anything I practice lots comes out in sparring - does that happen to people who train pidgeon toed? Do you find yourself in that stance in any random training stituations - thats if you can tell at the time :D ? If so does it feel right or wrong? I have only trained parallel feet.

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by couch

The SNT is a dictionary, but with just a dictionary - you can't make sentences. ie: Our Gum Sao clears just to the hip. If I were to face my opponent while performing this move, I would likely still be hit. But it's the shift in my stance or the movement(even step in some lineages) that enables the block to be utilized.


Couch has taken the correct and made it practice SLT for an hour a day


Originally posted by couch

The opening of the stance: toes first, then heels - helps to measure the width of your stance


Again spot on.

On the X cross hand action at the start of SLT, IMV you have nothing to gain from taking this literally i.e. viewing it as a block. In fact, it is the polar opposite of correct WC principles since you are using two hands to deal with one attack.

I have seen a seminar with WSL where he demonstrates with Barry lee the pitfalls of this interpretation i.e. barry lee kicks, he x blocks and then barry lee punchs him in the face:p

[canglong]

The first (opening) section of Siu Nim Tau form allows for the practitioner to properly express his/her awareness of Sap Dim Ming or the 10 bright points of wing chun every motion identifying one of the 10 points while simultaniously describing a specific combat application without the use of superfluous or transitional motions.
Also Leung Ting, after crossing arms high and low, teaches a wierd inward folding of the arms. Whats that all about? The maximum range of the inner gate is determined by crossing both hands at the wrist and extending them in a straight line from the middle bound to the outer lower boundary of the centerline. The lower boundary is chosen for this description of range because it can be precisely described in space using the practitioner's own fist to describe the exact distance of the extended elbow from the body. Pages 88 & 89 MKF

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
On the X cross hand action at the start of SLT, IMV you have nothing to gain from taking this literally i.e. viewing it as a block. In fact, it is the polar opposite of correct WC principles since you are using two hands to deal with one attack. Nick,
I absolutely agree with this point of view.

Bill

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
...suffice it to say the technique works great due to the fact that most fighters have no contact reflexes, if he/she tries to even attempt a trap you have them... First of all, the technique should work because it follows the principles of WC and is appropriate for the situation. In other words, that particular opponent has guided you to the response to the question that is being asked. It's not an if A, then do B thing. I also don't like the fact that you are depending on the opponent having "no contact reflexes". What if they do?? And why should I care?

Also, the technique may "work", but it leaves you in a bad position, IMO. You've broken the wrist grab, but end up with your arms crossed. In my simple mind, the technique must not only answer the question, but leave you in an excellent position to respond to whatever comes next. Otherwise you end up with a series of techniques that are joined together like Lego blocks, they may seem to fit, but they don't flow.

Once again, you mileage may vary.

Bill

[couch]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer


Couch has taken the correct and made it practice SLT for an hour a day



Again spot on.

On the X cross hand action at the start of SLT, IMV you have nothing to gain from taking this literally i.e. viewing it as a block. In fact, it is the polar opposite of correct WC principles since you are using two hands to deal with one attack.

I have seen a seminar with WSL where he demonstrates with Barry lee the pitfalls of this interpretation i.e. barry lee kicks, he x blocks and then barry lee punchs him in the face:p

I agree that Defining The Centre has no "blocking merit." Crossing the arms in front has something similar to the first punch that you execute. It means: my techniques come from my centre and go to my opponents centre. Since my opponent and I can't occupy the centre at the same time, this teaches a very important concept. Protect your centre (which is even easy with hail mary chain punching) and all will be well. :) (It is to be noted that proper chain punching with Jum Sao's are the way go. - Side note.)

Couch

[sihing]

hey Matrix, like I said before its hard to explain technique's in written form, but using the dbl X tan sao against a dbl wrist grab is only done for a split second, after which a trap and appropriate footwork is applied. Also, the question of me depending on my opponent not having contact reflex abilities, I'm not. But what are the odds of meeting another Wing Chun Man in combat?? Very little.

Yes I would have to agree the using two hands to block/deflect one is not very efficient, expecially trying to apply the opening movements of SLT to any non contact attack would not be recommended....

Sihing

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
But what are the odds of meeting another Wing Chun Man in combat?? Very little.
Yes I would have to agree the using two hands to block/deflect one is not very efficient, expecially trying to apply the opening movements of SLT to any non contact attack would not be recommended.... Sihing, I don't like depending on odds. I was Las Vegas a few weeks ago, and you quickly realize that even odds that slightly favour the house can cost you big time. ;)
You may have noted in my posts that I say things like " I don't like..." or "I'm not comfortable with...". That's because I don't claim to have a lock on what works. My skill level is far too low for that. If it works for you, that's cool. I'm just pointing out why I would not take that course of action.

Bill

[sihing]

that's cool Matrix, that's why we have these types of forums so we can debate/discuss things like this. Continue to learn as I am, its one of the best things you could ever do for yourself...

Sihing

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Simon
re: stance - anything I practice lots comes out in sparring - does that happen to people who train pidgeon toed? Do you find yourself in that stance in any random training stituations - thats if you can tell at the time :D ? If so does it feel right or wrong? I have only trained parallel feet.

Yes, but only for split seconds.
In sparring, you never stop moving.
Does anyone ever find themself in any form of horse stance while sparring?
However, training YCKYM in forms (with "pidgeon toes"), greatly improves my movement in sparring, and strengthens adduction kicking ability.

[yuanfen]

Sometimes ina great subject- the fundamentals introduced at te beginning- permeate through advanced motions as well.

A boxer's jab for instance- does not come "naturally"-yet it's early training remains through more advanced combinations.
In wing chun- the first section of the slt- contains many fundamental "goodies" of rooting, coordination(live stance), breathing and motion and getting your stuff together.

A small quibble on Nick F's good post-Sometimes when dealing with a very strong motion-two hands can come in handy without violating wing chun principles- including havinga coordinated structure and control of the center line.

The WSL demo you mention is instructive- of being punched
when using a two hand block. But context---and changes in distance can make a difference.Of never saying never.I have deep respect for WSL-but wing chun problem solving is wing chun problem solving IMP.

At very close quarters if a MA stylist or a street person is holding your head and is about to knee you- a combination of things
including the head and springy sup gee sow- two hand combination with appropriate motion and timing- can begin a turn around of fortune and fluidity.. And the habits developed through the ygkym/slt
gives some insurance and time against being thrown.

joy

[Gangsterfist]

Toby-

1 of the reasons why you train with the X in the opening form is to train two arms at once. Wing chun training really stresses not getting your arms crossed and trapped like that. You are also establishing uppper and lower gates and the center line. You are also learning the dropping elbow and immoveable elbow techniques. This also helps out with lut sao (sp?) which means removing hand. When you get trapped (you and your opponet both get tied up) sometimes and your bridge is under an opponets you remove it to gain leverage and establish the longer bridge (back on top). You are also no longer fighting gravity.

the YGKYM I was taught is pigeon toed. Here is a huge misconecption. Its not foot work training, its stance and structure training. There is no way you would fight pigeon toed. the SLT is the first form and establishes basic energies and structure. Chum Kiu, is the second open hand form and teaches you how to move with structure (foot work). Biu jee, the third and final open hand form teaches you how to break all the rules and still maintain structure and center line.

Its all progressive training...

[Toby]

Gangsterfist, I pretty much agree with what you're saying. I was trying to be polite in my earlier post ;).

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
On the X cross hand action at the start of SLT, IMV you have nothing to gain from taking this literally i.e. viewing it as a block. In fact, it is the polar opposite of correct WC principles since you are using two hands to deal with one attack. While that may be true for a block, and I thought the same thing I changed my mind when I was shown the kwan sao as Lo Man Kam uses it.

This [shock] isn't afraid of crossing hands and is used esp with a light springy upward energy when eg someone has control of both of your hands in a crossed position or has a lot of heavy crushing forward energy down your centreline if for some reason you can't step back the way you want. Gives you a nice inside/upper position while opening up and striking.

Not saying that the move in SLT is that kwan sao changeover, but it has it's similarities, and if practising it that way means that move develops a meaning for you rather than being an empty gesture... so be it! :D ;)

[Yaksha]

Maybe the forms should be considered without the crossed hands in the introduction,

and then maybe you could understand what its use is in the forms by figuring out what idea is incomplete without it.

---

I thought it was for showing the centerline and for showing how much the arms may cross before you're in trouble.

(you can always huen sau to free the wrists easily, but not the forearms)

Also it seems to be some kind of qi gong perhaps.