Mantis Clips / Forms Question

[PT-Kali]

Greetings folks. If you guys have time, I am curious to the Mantis forms located on the page below. I've heard of Bung Bo but not the others.

It also appears that the sifu is doing them rather slow, perhaps for easier viewing. At any cost, what's your opinion?

http://johnswang.com/

[mantis108]

I can only download one Mantis file there. The other files seem to be not available. The link said Ran Ja. This is Luanjie or Lanjie (depending on the lineage). I think he did it to show the form so that all the moves can be capture clearly. The techniques in there are clear and solid which is the way traditional forms should be played.

Mantis108

[Oso]

The real gem is the SC Introduction clips. Some footage of Master Chang Dong Sheng.

Shifu (Master?) Wang is most well known for his Shuai Chiao I think.

[Shaolinlueb]

quick question, are stances usually that high in traditional long fist? but good clips nonetheless

[Oso]

IME, no.

Shifu Wang's versions of lienbu and gungli and maifu are very, very close to mine and we played them a bit lower but not very low at all.

[YinYangDagger]

I think he's just doing a "demo" for the camera's sake. I'm sure if you were a student learning the forms you would be a little lower and trying to exert a little more power.

At any rate, Master Wang has been doing Shuai Chiao and Long Fist for a long, long time. Probably longer than most ppl on this board has been alive.

He's also only the second person I've ever heard that does the Sai Men Bee dagger form. Anyone else on here learn it?

[mantis108]

I really enjoyed the site. I think it offers a lot and it gives a good idea of some popular styles in TCMA a very good exposure.

Personally, I like the flavor of the way the longfist forms are played. It is reminiscent of GM Han Hsingtang's flavor. Generally, in any longfist system there are 3 practicing speeds. The slowest of the three is for building structure and opening the frame. As long as there is a good base, which is with steady and even stride, and a good structure, the height of the stance is not of great importance IMHO. Especially, when taken application of forms into consideration, I will take a stylist that has stances like GM Han and Master Wang anytime over someon who has low and dead stance. I believe it is more combative and alive their ways but then it is just me.

BTW, this is pretty much the first time I saw a single dagger form which is very interesting. Most style would do double dagger instead.

Mantis108

[YinYangDagger]

Agreed mantis108. When I mentioned the only time I've ever seen the single dagger form I was referring to this guy:

http://shaolinlongfist.homestead.com/

No video clips, but a lot of pictures, including the single dagger form photos. I suppose it must have been passed down to a specific lineage.

[mantis108]

Thanks for the link. I have heard of Henry Gong but I don't know enough about his background. Anyway, I appreciate the sharing. Thanks

Regards,

Mantis108

[Oso]

this was a very cool find for me as so far every other version of lienbu and gungli I have seen have been very different from the way I was taught and his are so close.

I think I saw Shifu Wang at the Great Lakes Tourny in '99 giving the judges seminar for SC. I might be wrong though. He definitely had that "thing'' about his movement that the good guys have.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Oso
this was a very cool find for me as so far every other version of lienbu and gungli I have seen have been very different from the way I was taught and his are so close.


sifu wang's long fist (e.g., lien bu and gungli) came from his teacher Li Mao-ching (GM Han's student). It is the prod of shaolin curriculum of the nanjing central guo shu institute.

Lien bu was also adapted by other system b/c it was widely taught in the early republic days as basic military training. each teacher/instructor altered it to be consistent with his own taste/system.

[Oso]

mine came from Sifu David Kash. A search here at KFM will bring him up, and point out the controversy over his teaching of 'Emperor's Long Fist'. At any rate, the versions of LB, GL, and MF#1 I learned by way of Kash are most similar, ime, to Sifu Wangs.

The version I have of LB has some decidedly bagua'esque movement to them for whatever reason.

but, anyway, getting away from PM with all this... thanks for the background info on Sifu Wang.

[Robert Young]

I practice Long Fist from GM Han's lineage. Let me see if I can answer some question here.

Shaolinlueb

> quick question, are stances usually that high in traditional long > fist? but good clips nonetheless
No, we do not do our stances that high. I believe he did it for his own record like YinYangDagger said. When GM Han did the video clip, he was 65 year old. That was the reason GM Han's stances were a little bit high.

mantis108
> Thanks for the link. I have heard of Henry Gong but I don't
> know enough about his background.
I have exchanged some e-mail in the past with Henry. His teacher learned from Li Mao-ching (GM Han's student). So, Mr. Wang and his teacher are from the same lineage.

About the height of the stances. We do stand low, but not as low as squat. But, like I said, The clip was taken when GM Han was 65 year old. He did not do the same moves or poses as those when he was younger.

Oso
> mine came from Sifu David Kash. A search here at KFM will bring
> him up, and point out the controversy over his teaching
> of 'Emperor's Long Fist'. At any rate, the versions of LB, GL, and
> MF#1 I learned by way of Kash are most similar, ime, to Sifu
> Wangs
As long as you see MF #1, MF#2 and 'Emperor's Long Fist' together, the forms are from GM Han's line. As I know, only Han's lineage has MF#1 and MF#2. That is why they are similar. So, you teacher must have learned from Han's student or later. If there are Bagua's influence, I'm guessing that is from Adam Hsu. Adam is Li's young brother under GM Han.

[YinYangDagger]

hey Robert Young, thanks for the contribution!

any word on the single dagger form? where'd it come from?

[Oso]

Robert Young, thanks. That's very interesting. I didn't get MF#2 before I left training with that group.

[Shaolin Dude]

what's ran ja? it looks like a wah lum form

[sayloc]

shaloin dude

I think I think you are getting wah lum forms confused with Tai Chi Plum Flower forms.

[mantis108]

Hi Robert Young,

Thank you for the info. It is a great pleasure to meet people such as yourself from GM Han's line. I have alway admire his teaching.

Hi Shaolin Dude,

If I am not mistaken, Zhang Bingdao (TJMHPM) taught some seminars at Wah Lum temple. I believe he taught his version of Luanjie (chaotically intercept). The Taiji Tanglang version (Jiang Hualong lines) is known as chaotically connected which is considered as one of the mother forms of the style. These versions are very similar in structure but quite different in flavor. The other mother forms being Bazhou (8 Elbows) and Mishou (secret hands) 90 hands which is the prototypical Zhaiyao (1-6). Related information of this could be found in the style's progenerator Liang Xuexiang's Quanpu. I am under the impression that Wah Lum's PM side of thing is based in ShuaiShou Tanglang. The curriculum could be different somewhat.

Just some thoughts.

Best regards
Mantis108

[yu shan]

Mantis 108

You are correct, Zhang Bingdao taught/teaches the Wah Lum tour groups visiting his area. He has taught Lanjie to the Wah Lum group. From what Ilya Profatilov has told me, Zhang Bingdao`s father was very good! Can you provide some info on this Secret Hands?

Thank you Sir

[Robert Young]

I just got back from Taiwan for two week vacation.

YinYangDagger
>any word on the single dagger form? where'd it come from?
GM Han have taught single dagger and double dagger forms. I don't know where the forms come from. GM Han have learned from several teacher before he went to Central GuShu Institute. He learned a lot of different styles and forms from the Institute too. The history part of the forms is hard to trace.


mantis108
> ... I have alway admire his teaching.
So you noticed the difference of GM Han's teaching. His teaching was unique and very good, actually revolutional in his time. That's why he has training many good students like my teacher and several of his Long Fist brothers.

[YinYangDagger]

Thanks for the reply RY.

I wish someone would delve deeper into the Long Fist history and write a book / article on the subject.