Difference between IMA's and Judo/Jujitsu/Wrestling and Shui Chiao?

[Fu-Pow]

I'm gonna throw out a hypothesis and I'm wondering if you guys agree or disagree.

The difference in strategy between IMA's and the arts mentioned in the title is that:

-IMA's unbalance the opponent before issuing force.

-The mentioned arts issue force to unbalance the opponent.


P.S. I have never taken Judo/Jujitsu/Wrestling/Chinese Wrestling so please enlighten me if I am way off base here.

[Water Dragon]

Incorrect. It is darn near impossible to throw somebody without first stealing their balance. Do a web search on Kuzushi

Kuzushi exists in all the grappling arts, there's just more written about it in Judo.

[MasterKiller]

http://judoinfo.com/kuzushi1.htm

[Meat Shake]

I think the main difference is more or less in the training methodology.
"Internal" arts tend to focus more heavily on structure and alignment...
Not to say "external" arts dont, just that the internal arts have more emphasis on it.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
http://judoinfo.com/kuzushi1.htm


Go to the "examples" section of that page (it wouldn't let me post a link) and there is a picture of a forward throw.

Do you think that you would see this sort of thing in IMA's? He is essentially supporting this guys entire body weight and I'm guessing he's throwing him forward.

This seems a lot more use of strength then you would see in IMA's.

At least in my experience.

[Meat Shake]

Hmm...
I dont know all that much about IMA... but I know of a technique called "man carries fish on his back" or something similar, that entails you locking your opponents arm and then hoisting them onto your back with the locked arm.

[norther practitioner]

Sounds like Snake creeps down in Yang taiji.

[unkokusai]

I love these names!

[Shooter]

Meat Shake, it's the same kinda elbow-lock you'd do if you were peeling a guy's top arm off your head while escaping RNC...except it's done while standing.

not snake-creeps-down

[Suntzu]

KKM made sooooooo much sense......

[Meat Shake]

Originally posted by Shooter
Meat Shake, it's the same kinda elbow-lock you'd do if you were peeling a guy's top arm off your head while escaping RNC...except it's done while standing.

not snake-creeps-down

My escape from a RNC involves first making whoever is holding me go verticle, and then proceeding to smash them back downward to the ground. No peeling necessary.

The lock Im speaking of is a shoulder lock in which your (left arm for example) is holding your opponents right wrist. You are back to back...
Im too tired to explain... Ill just plagurize good ol Dr. Yangs explanation of the technique when I get home.

[Merryprankster]

Lousy hypothesis, commonly heard from people who like to think what they are doing is better than everything else.

The only differences between those arts are:

1. Where they came from.
2. Stylistic or rule based preferences.
3. Training methodologies.


The exact same skill sets, re: grappling principles, will be developed regardless of which of these arts you take. Specifics may vary, but the sensitivity, coordination and mat sense will be gained regardless.

[Tak]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Do you think that you would see this sort of thing in IMA's? He is essentially supporting this guys entire body weight and I'm guessing he's throwing him forward.

This seems a lot more use of strength then you would see in IMA's.

A shoulder throw like the one in the picture is very conformant to IMA principles. It uses mechanics and leverage, not brute strength. I've seen little kids and small women throw large adults like this with no problem (as long as the height difference isn't too great).

[shaolin kungfu]

lard nar?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow



Go to the "examples" section of that page (it wouldn't let me post a link) and there is a picture of a forward throw.

Do you think that you would see this sort of thing in IMA's? He is essentially supporting this guys entire body weight and I'm guessing he's throwing him forward.

This seems a lot more use of strength then you would see in IMA's.

At least in my experience.

that throw is seionage. you off balance before the throw, so his balance was already going forward onto the thrower. the thrower will pop his hips and twist his waist to send the guy onto the ground. It's not strength based at all.


Now, having said that, strength does come into play during competitions and such, natrually. That would also likely apply to an IMA throwing competition, if there were to ever be one.

[Fu-Pow]

the thrower will pop his hips and twist his waist to send the guy onto the ground. It's not strength based at all.

Twisting the waist to throw the guy over your hip is not using force?

[Merryprankster]

Are you interested in what people who actually know what they are talking about on this subject have to say?

Seriously. Because if you are, some of us might answer you. But if you aren't, let us know so we can ignore this.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Go to the "examples" section of that page (it wouldn't let me post a link) and there is a picture of a forward throw.

Do you think that you would see this sort of thing in IMA's?

Yes. In fact, it's the third technique shown, (for "white ape removes branch") in Yan Dehua's classic Bagua Applications (http://www.thewushucentre.ca/yandehua.htm).

More recently, Tim Cartmell's Effortless Combat Throws (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0865681767/qid=1087424559/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-0510415-4280928?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) showcases this throw as well.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Are you interested in what people who actually know what they are talking about on this subject have to say?

Seriously. Because if you are, some of us might answer you. But if you aren't, let us know so we can ignore this.


Boooogggggaaahhhhh!!!:mad:

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Christopher M


Yes. In fact, it's the third technique shown, (for "white ape removes branch") in Yan Dehua's classic Bagua Applications (http://www.thewushucentre.ca/yandehua.htm).

More recently, Tim Cartmell's Effortless Combat Throws (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0865681767/qid=1087424559/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-0510415-4280928?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) showcases this throw as well.

Hmmm....very interesting. :)

[Shooter]

Lots of theories from this guy...but once again, clueless

[Christopher M]

You're absolutely right that those kinds of hip and shoulder throws, unskillfully done, would require a brute strength approach of lifting someone, moving their body, and dropping them aggressively. However, they can be done skillfully, and both the internal and grappling styles of martial arts are skillfull in this manner when done right.

You can analyze such a hip or shoulder throw quite directly with principles spoken about in the taiji classics. For instance, directing someone's body weight past their center of gravity to accomplish the throw is well approached through 'leading into emptiness.'

In the japanese tradition, there are a similar series of concepts that direct practice. "Tsukuri" or "fitting" is when you accomodate your movements to the opponent's movements, in order to extend them in line with their intentions (see above, and compare chinese concepts of adhering and leading). "Kake" or "termination" offers an interruption of the opponent's intention: for instance, in the hip throws, tsukuri is applied to extend the opponent's intentions, then kake is applied (your hip blocks his forward movement) to prevent him from compensating. "Kuzushi" or off-balancing has already been mentioned, and includes issues like shoulder-hip alignment which are also central to the internal styles' understanding of balance.

None of this is to say that these arts are the same, which would be equally wrong. But most certainly, neither has the copyright on skillfullness.

[Shooter]

Merry, that's why I'm on his ignore list...for blowing his stupid theories outta the water.

It's gonna happen to you too if you're not careful!

[Water Dragon]

For some reason, I'm thinking that maybe this isn't exactly how Fu Pow hoped this thread would end up when he posted it.

[Christopher M]

Fu-Pow - You practice Chen style taijiquan?

There are frequently openings for these sorts of throws in Chen style push hands practice, and I recall seeing a number of "masters" doing variations of them. Consider the push hands series shown here (http://www.kungfu4u.com/Tai%20Chi/Tai%20Chi%20Videos.htm), and the practitoner on the "inside" position (whose front knee is between his opponent's legs). You see how he takes the "outer door" (contacting the opponent from the outside side of his arm) and then locks the arm and "interrupts" the leg in order to take down? You may see that had he been given the "inner door" instead (working the opponent's other arm), the opening would have been for some variation of a shouler throw rather than this armbar attack. If I remember any online clips showing this, I'll link them up.

Here (http://homepage.mac.com/mancheta/iMovieTheater17.html) is an internal stylist (the aforementioned Tim Cartmell) doing a hip throw, which perhaps demonstrates that it is not a "brute force" technique. This is not the same technique for which you offered contention, but it perhaps contains the same idea which you found questionable.

[Shooter]

Christopher M, that's the same pull and leg blocking as in brush-knee-twist-step/tai-otoshi application. That demo can't be IMA since the hypothesis states;

-IMA's unbalance the opponent before issuing force.

-The mentioned arts issue force to unbalance the opponent.

;)

[Merryprankster]

I don't really care if I'm on his ignore list.

Shooter,

I saw this the other day and thought of you.

http://www.themat.com/coachescorner/pressdetail.asp?aid=10117

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

I like Wang Xian's style. The opening, closing, and the small movemnts. The Tim Cartmell throw just doesn't do it for me, it doesn't distingush itself from shuai chiao enough in that particular video. Like the Su Dong chen clips just don't show enough power for my tastes

It's all about tiny movements, and sending the opponent flying away skidding on the floor. And just shutting the guy down buy sinking into your hips. Unresitible power, not technique.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by 3rdrateIMAkilla
Unresitible power, not technique.


:rolleyes:

[joedoe]

Originally posted by 3rdrateIMAkilla
I like Wang Xian's style. The opening, closing, and the small movemnts. The Tim Cartmell throw just doesn't do it for me, it doesn't distingush itself from shuai chiao enough in that particular video. Like the Su Dong chen clips just don't show enough power for my tastes

It's all about tiny movements, and sending the opponent flying away skidding on the floor. And just shutting the guy down buy sinking into your hips. Unresitible power, not technique.

But irresistible power comes from good technique. ;)

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by 3rdrateIMAkilla
I like Wang Xian's style... The Tim Cartmell throw just doesn't do it for me

I don't think they're comparable to begin with: one is sparring, one is form work.

[Shooter]

MP, thanks for the link.

7 basic skills...I like that!

The head/mind leads, and the body follows. ie;"Peeking" is the same as looking left and right. "Attack side and weak side" is closely paralleled by advance and retreat. "Freezing a side" = central equilibrium. Very similar to the 5-Steps positional strategies we've taken to the mat in sub-wrestling.

"Freeze, window, drop, penetrate and turn"
Brilliant 5-Steps usage right there.

He's giving his guys some simple concepts which apply to the intent as much as the tactic. There's a lot of depth in that approach. It leaves the player with innumerable opportunities depending on their level of awareness and ingenuity.

:cool:

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

Originally posted by Christopher M


I don't think they're comparable to begin with: one is sparring, one is form work.

In my eyes, sparring, forms, alive, unalive, none of that matters. The movents of the center of gravity is what is all about. Moving your center with the opponents, or actually moving the center to move the opponent. Or dropping down the center, into your hips, to shut down the opponent.

That's great if someone is good at Schuai chiao or bjj though, but it's not what I want to see.

The teachings of IMA are that, technique is not the determination of skill, but movents of the center of gravity , waist and all joints, to just shut em down, structure on top of them.

[Christopher M]

I suppose we simply disagree, then. I believe the IMA measure of skilfullness understands structure and center to be methods whereby successfull techniques are accomplished, and that superior structure occurring while you are struck, thrown, or submitted is indeed not skillful at all.

[Meat Shake]

"and sending the opponent flying away skidding on the floor"

If you want to hurt them it would be better to make them bounce.

[3rdrateIMAkilla]

Different ways to hurt an opponent for different reasons

Okay, in the wang xian push hands clip, I don't view that as a trip or sweep, or a throw, but simply adding peng to his legs.

Peng is soo vital. It always wins out. Just bang, peng wins.

[Shooter]

Actually, tai-otoshi is practiced by judoka with the same "adding peng to legs" as Wang Xian shows in that clip. Exactly the same...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by 3rdrateIMAkilla
Different ways to hurt an opponent for different reasons

Okay, in the wang xian push hands clip, I don't view that as a trip or sweep, or a throw, but simply adding peng to his legs.

Peng is soo vital. It always wins out. Just bang, peng wins.

shooter, chris m and wd have all stated that IMA shares some common principles with the mentioned external grappling styles - perhaps this is one of the big differences - instead of theorizing about things, they just do them. they know what peng is, but never defined it, they know what fa jing is, but never defined it - they just know through training how to use it and don't concern themselves with the formal definitions.

the first time I met wd, we compared techniques. I showed him a defense from thai boxing, and he was like "oh, that's taiji yielding" I was thinking "yielding, wtf?" then he explained it to me. I had been doing it all along, but never had a definition. I train judo - we don't spend time talking about peng or what it is, but shooter sees it in the tai otoshi technique.

Now, I know that not all of the principles are shared, but there may be more than people think...